Making vampires able to enter private property (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

Is there any way to make a vampire enter private property of any kind other than dominating the owner into inviting him or similar tactics?

[Mordaedil]

Generally, if I want to run vampire centric games in D&D, I crib from World of Darkness or Vampire: The Masquarade to set the rules for vampire clans and behavior instead and change the race around appropriately.

The default vampire is generally more suited as a monster for adventurers to fight, rather than anything interesting to play as, even as a DM.

[KillingAScarab]

Generally, if I want to run vampire centric games in D&D, I crib from World of Darkness or Vampire: The Masquarade to set the rules for vampire clans and behavior instead and change the race around appropriately.

The default vampire is generally more suited as a monster for adventurers to fight, rather than anything interesting to play as, even as a DM.I had thought perhaps there would be a way around this weakness through spellcasting, but your mention of WoD made me look at the Sword & Sorcerery Ravenloft Campaign Setting. Even though their variant of vampires may develop dimension door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) as a spell-like ability, it explicitly cannot be used to circumvent its weaknesses. That said, I think you could still have a vampire sorcerer enter someone's dream (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dream.htm) uninvited and prod them into the desired action.

If I were running a campaign where the party was investigating how a vampire got in a secure home, I would totally put a "Welcome" mat near the front door.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Obvious spell answer; polymorph. The vampiric weaknesses are a special quality that they lose temporarily if subjected to the appropriate shapechanging magic. The form of what they were before becoming a vampire feels pretty easy for passing.

Okay, not polymorph. The general idea still works, just gonna take a different spell.

[Vizzerdrix]

Aquire the property deed from the city.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Aquire the property deed from the city.

Be a commissioned officer of a military with fairly wide powers to commandeer stuff. Alternatively, annex the property in the name of the empire of your choice.

(On a related note, in a recent game I tried to keep vampires out by seizing property in the name of the Elven Imperial Navy, then as ranking officer present expressly forbidding vampires from entering the premises. Sadly, the DM was not convinced)

[Jowgen]

I used to play with someone running a Vampire PC, who had a very particular approach to this issue.

Whenever we, as a party, entered a new city/kingdom, they'd make a point of tracking down a local information hub where they could map out property-rights hierarchies. Some hours and a knowledge check or 2 later, this vampire spawn would then know exactly which individuals in the local government/law-enforcement had the authority to grant someone legal access to private housing in the hold. From this he would pick the easiest target and go "convince" them to write him a document basically saying "In X, this guy can go into any house he wants".

It would usually ended up being some local tax collector guy, who had the authority to search houses for tax evasion purposes and could appoint assistants. Sometimes it was the local head of the guard, who could legally send people into private houses to find fugitives. That sort of thing.

[Necroticplague]

Easy: Not recognizing private property. After all, it's not like private ownership is real in any useful sense more than names are real. And like names, they can be different depending on the culture. So simply have the vampire be from one without a firm concept of private property, then anybody has the authority to let them in, including fellow party members.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Easy: Not recognizing private property. After all, it's not like private ownership is real in any useful sense more than names are real. And like names, they can be different depending on the culture. So simply have the vampire be from one without a firm concept of private property, then anybody has the authority to let them in, including fellow party members.

Lord above, Communist vampires. Next time I run an urban fantasy game, the players are definitely going up against the KGB Vampiric Detachment. (And honestly, this guy (https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c14e24f1ee8d11015dc9b134847f19d7-c?convert_to_webp=true) is basically sparkling in the daylight already.)

[exelsisxax]

Gift a welcome mat to the owner.

[Daefos]

Easy: Not recognizing private property. After all, it's not like private ownership is real in any useful sense more than names are real. And like names, they can be different depending on the culture. So simply have the vampire be from one without a firm concept of private property, then anybody has the authority to let them in, including fellow party members.

By that logic, a vampire could cross a running river by keeping pace with it as they flew/swam/whatevered across, or avoid burning up in the sunlight by closing their eyes. Private property might be a social construct, but it's still a very real part of their limitations; it's silly to let them bypass it for no reason other than they just decided to.

[Elkad]

Remember, the resident is not always the owner. Landlords, actual Lords, the King, and many others could be allowed to grant permission.

If the vampire is one of those, or controls one of those...

And that permission could be handed down to underlings.

[A.A.King]

By that logic, a vampire could cross a running river by keeping pace with it as they flew/swam/whatevered across, or avoid burning up in the sunlight by closing their eyes. Private property might be a social construct, but it's still a very real part of their limitations; it's silly to let them bypass it for no reason other than they just decided to.

It is only real if the state allows it to be real. Long ago the vampires managed to change the state into a Marxist Utopia were private property is sin for the sole purpose of being able to enter peoples houses and feed on them.

[Necroticplague]

By that logic, a vampire could cross a running river by keeping pace with it as they flew/swam/whatevered across, or avoid burning up in the sunlight by closing their eyes. Private property might be a social construct, but it's still a very real part of their limitations; it's silly to let them bypass it for no reason other than they just decided to.

Except here's the thing: Running water and sunlight aren't relative to anything. That light is sunlight, regardless of what society you're in. That water is still moving, no matter who raised you. Whether that property is private or public?That depends on what law system you're working under, and is completely arbitrary. If not for the vampire's system, who else would you expect rules of the vampire to work under?

Besides, the entire vampiric weaknesses is stupid crap on top of an already-weak template. It's silly of them to have those weaknesses in the first place.

[Telonius]

I was going to suggest the Vampire Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template, but oddly enough it doesn't mention removing that weakness.

[Frozen_Feet]

Necroticplague: you're forgetting that D&D, and many other settings, either implicitly or explicitly include True Names of things. It is completely possible that due to such things, a social contract becomes metaphysically binding, even if a third party is not aware of or does not acknowledge terms of that contract.

[KillingAScarab]

Necroticplague: you're forgetting that D&D, and many other settings, either implicitly or explicitly include True Names of things. It is completely possible that due to such things, a social contract becomes metaphysically binding, even if a third party is not aware of or does not acknowledge terms of that contract.Indeed. It's like telling the DM, "Well, I don't believe in curses, so the one which was laid upon my house by this NPC stating we would all become bloodthirsty mockeries of life doesn't affect me."

Clearly, what the original poster needs then, is to have a vampire which convinces everyone else to be a Communist.

[Tohsaka Rin]

How about presenting/dressing yourself as someone of authority, paying a brief visit to discuss important matters?

Isn't the usual response to something like that "Please, come in." ?

Glib, I know, but it seems like a sound idea, with a good enough bluff check.

[DrMotives]

The concept of thresholds keeping out the supernatural is a big part of the Harry Dresden series. In the Dresden Files books, not just vampires but also summoned demons and fairies all can't enter a threshold without owner's permission. That being said, a threshold has a certain amount of strength. A tenant who has only recently started occupying a residence has a weaker threshold than say, a family home that's been lived in by the same people for generations. And a strong enough entity can brute force their way into a threshold, it just hurts them to do so. A wizard can reinforce their threshold with strong magic, and pretty much always do.

If you want to adopt a mechanic along these lines, it'd be homebrew, but then every threshold would have a willpower DC to force entry on. Breaking the threshold makes it lose power for all trespassers until the threshold has time to recover. And when the threshold is broken, it will push out a certain amount of magical backlash outward, hurting the door opener and all in the immediate area outside of the door. The higher the break DC, the stronger the explosion when it gives way. Beating a threshold by a large enough margin would reduce the blast damage.

[Karl Aegis]

I thought Goblin society didn't have a concept for private property. Go to one of those.

[DrMotives]

I thought Goblin society didn't have a concept for private property. Go to one of those.

Nah, they certainly do. They just enjoy relieving others of their private property. If you want truly "I have no understanding of private property" you need kender, and kender are far worse than vampires.

[Bohandas]

If the vampire was a feudal lord that could overrule his subjects' ownership of the buildings.

[flappeercraft]

I used to play with someone running a Vampire PC, who had a very particular approach to this issue.

Whenever we, as a party, entered a new city/kingdom, they'd make a point of tracking down a local information hub where they could map out property-rights hierarchies. Some hours and a knowledge check or 2 later, this vampire spawn would then know exactly which individuals in the local government/law-enforcement had the authority to grant someone legal access to private housing in the hold. From this he would pick the easiest target and go "convince" them to write him a document basically saying "In X, this guy can go into any house he wants".

It would usually ended up being some local tax collector guy, who had the authority to search houses for tax evasion purposes and could appoint assistants. Sometimes it was the local head of the guard, who could legally send people into private houses to find fugitives. That sort of thing.

To this point, probably the best idea. Not exactly the most practical but nothing really shady with it.

Also the definition for home is "the place where one lives permanently, especially as a member of a family or household", so if one found out someone had plans to move out, could a vampire technically get in?

For the definition of building its "a structure with a roof and walls, such as a house, school, store, or factory.", so could a couple well placed passwalls and disintegrate spells allow a vampire to enter since if there is no longer roof or walls its technically not a building?

[Morcleon]

If you remove enough walls, it ceases to be a building entirely. :smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

Proclaim yourself as Emperor Bitey I, sovereign lord of the entire world. Then you have the authority to self-grant access to any building within your realm. Citizens (or more quickly, their lords) unwilling to bend the knee can be persuaded through violence.

[darksolitaire]

Is there any way to make a vampire enter private property of any kind other than dominating the owner into inviting him or similar tactics?

Step 1: Seize the means of production.
Step 2: Establish dictatorship of the proletariat.
Step 3: Abolish private property.

[CharonsHelper]

The concept of thresholds keeping out the supernatural is a big part of the Harry Dresden series. In the Dresden Files books, not just vampires but also summoned demons and fairies all can't enter a threshold without owner's permission. That being said, a threshold has a certain amount of strength. A tenant who has only recently started occupying a residence has a weaker threshold than say, a family home that's been lived in by the same people for generations. And a strong enough entity can brute force their way into a threshold, it just hurts them to do so. A wizard can reinforce their threshold with strong magic, and pretty much always do.

If you want to adopt a mechanic along these lines, it'd be homebrew, but then every threshold would have a willpower DC to force entry on. Breaking the threshold makes it lose power for all trespassers until the threshold has time to recover. And when the threshold is broken, it will push out a certain amount of magical backlash outward, hurting the door opener and all in the immediate area outside of the door. The higher the break DC, the stronger the explosion when it gives way. Beating a threshold by a large enough margin would reduce the blast damage.

Yes - in Dresden it's based upon being your home rather than being your property, so your vampire landlord probably couldn't come in without being invited.

Also - even things with enough brute force to push past a threshold in the Dresden books lose a good bit of their magical juice while within. (For that matter - wizards in that series lose most of their magical muscle when they're not invited in.)

[barakaka]

Forgive my foolishness, but why can't a vampire enter private property? Besides being recognized as a monster I mean, but I'd say that goes for public property too :smalltongue:.

[DrMotives]

Forgive my foolishness, but why can't a vampire enter private property? Besides being recognized as a monster I mean, but I'd say that goes for public property too :smalltongue:.

It's part of vampire lore. Just like a repulsion from garlic, not casting reflections in mirrors, etc. They are physically incapable of doing it without being invited in. See Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lost Boys, Dresden Files, Dracula, and more for sources.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forgive my foolishness, but why can't a vampire enter private property? Besides being recognized as a monster I mean, but I'd say that goes for public property too :smalltongue:.

It's written right there in the template description. They can't enter a private residence without permission, cross running water outside of their coffin, or approach someone forcefully presenting a holy symbol.

[Kantaki]

Forgive my foolishness, but why can't a vampire enter private property? Besides being recognized as a monster I mean, but I'd say that goes for public property too :smalltongue:.

Because vampires being vampires are- like certain other supernatural entities - bound to certain rules.
And in the case of vampires one of those rules is that they have to be invited before they are able to enter private property/residences.
For the same reason they can't cross rivers and turn extra crispy in the sun.

[Berenger]

1. Torch.
2. Bag of gold.
3. Fire sale.

[Bohandas]

What if the vampire was a communist?

[DrMotives]

Or even worse, an anarchist? Why do anarchists drink herbal tea? Because they believe proper tea is theft. *rimshot*

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Or even worse, an anarchist? Why do anarchists drink herbal tea? Because they believe proper tea is theft. *rimshot*

Why do objectivists drink herbal tea? Because proper tea is sacred.

*tumbleweed...*

[KillingAScarab]

Why do objectivists drink herbal tea? Because proper tea is sacred.

*tumbleweed...*I see what you did there.


Here's a spin on the situation which I hadn't considered before. What if the vampire is in a knock-down-drag-out-brawl and gets thrown into a building it didn't have permission to enter? Is the vampire OK if the person who does the throwing can grant permission? If not, should there be repercussions?

[Bohandas]

Or for that matter, can they be thrown into a building they're not allowed to enter? Are they repelled physically, or just compelled not to enter, or does entering harm them somehow?

And if it's a compulsion would they be compelled to leave once thrown in?

[KillianHawkeye]

Try the direct approach: burn the house down. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[RedMage125]

I don't know why people think that the Vampire being communist would have any bearing on the situation.

If the COMMUNITY was Communist, and all property belonged to everyone, THEN the Vampire could enter.

In Ravenloft, Count Strahd Von Zarovich rules Barovia in a Feudal state. As the feudal lord, HE is the actual landowner of ALL of Barovia. So while commoners may think of a house as "theirs", Strahd is the actual property owner, so he can waltz into any home he wishes.

And that's canon lore. So I guess the RAW answer to the OP's question is to have said vampire be the feudal lord of an area.

[Elkad]

In Ravenloft, Count Strahd Von Zarovich rules Barovia in a Feudal state. As the feudal lord, HE is the actual landowner of ALL of Barovia. So while commoners may think of a house as "theirs", Strahd is the actual property owner, so he can waltz into any home he wishes.

Which was beat by another player in my party, completely accidentally, on a technicality*.
Heck, we didn't even know we were in Ravenloft, and hadn't so much as heard a rumor of a vampire (not even meta, DM picked it up I6 brand new and dropped us in it the next session). We got sucked into the fog. It was dark and creepy, we still didn't know what was going on, and the wizard cast Leomund's Secure Shelter the first night we were there. Strahd came knocking (literally) on my watch. "Hi, I'm the Lord of this Land. May I come in?" I made the leap and said "I'll not invite you."

*Yes, it's arguable that since Strahd owns the land the shelter was on, it's still his...

[JoshuaZ]

In Ravenloft, Count Strahd Von Zarovich rules Barovia in a Feudal state. As the feudal lord, HE is the actual landowner of ALL of Barovia. So while commoners may think of a house as "theirs", Strahd is the actual property owner, so he can waltz into any home he wishes.


This was a plot point in the very first Ravenloft novel, "Vampire of the Mists" although if I remember correctly it wasn't clear if he could enter because he owned everything or if it was more about him just having extra powers in general.

[RedMage125]

Which was beat by another player in my party, completely accidentally, on a technicality*.
Heck, we didn't even know we were in Ravenloft, and hadn't so much as heard a rumor of a vampire (not even meta, DM picked it up I6 brand new and dropped us in it the next session). We got sucked into the fog. It was dark and creepy, we still didn't know what was going on, and the wizard cast Leomund's Secure Shelter the first night we were there. Strahd came knocking (literally) on my watch. "Hi, I'm the Lord of this Land. May I come in?" I made the leap and said "I'll not invite you."

*Yes, it's arguable that since Strahd owns the land the shelter was on, it's still his...
Arguably, the Secure Shelter itself is a new structure that only the caster "owns". Otherwise, it wouldn't be very "Secure", would it?


This was a plot point in the very first Ravenloft novel, "Vampire of the Mists" although if I remember correctly it wasn't clear if he could enter because he owned everything or if it was more about him just having extra powers in general.

It's been made explicitly clear in a number of Ravenloft sources. I still remember it from reading my 2e Van Richten's Guide to Vampires. And I believe it gets mentioned in the 5e Strahd adventure as well.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I don't know why people think that the Vampire being communist would have any bearing on the situation.

If the COMMUNITY was Communist, and all property belonged to everyone, THEN the Vampire could enter.

In Ravenloft, Count Strahd Von Zarovich rules Barovia in a Feudal state. As the feudal lord, HE is the actual landowner of ALL of Barovia. So while commoners may think of a house as "theirs", Strahd is the actual property owner, so he can waltz into any home he wishes.

And that's canon lore. So I guess the RAW answer to the OP's question is to have said vampire be the feudal lord of an area.

So you introduce the claim of a conflicting legal system which does not acknowledge the authority of the local system as legitimate, such as that of a communist state which considers itself to be the rightful government of all sentient beings (which is of course completely in line with some forms of communism).

[RedMage125]

So you introduce the claim of a conflicting legal system which does not acknowledge the authority of the local system as legitimate, such as that of a communist state which considers itself to be the rightful government of all sentient beings (which is of course completely in line with some forms of communism).

That doesn't matter. The home remains private property.

A Vampire could theoretically genuinely believe that basking in the noonday sun will grant him more power. It will not.

You can't invalidate property ownership because an outsider adheres to a belief in a backwards-a** system of government. Likewise, if a Vampire who WAS a Feudal lord were to travel, and did not realize he had left his own demesne. When he came across a little farmstead, he would find himself unable to waltz right in if it was not part of his territory, even if he mistakenly believed that it was.

Again, if the OWNERS (or residents, if you prefer) believed in a system wherein there was no such thing as property ownership then yes, the vampire could just walk in. Note that it's not just "private property" but "private residence" that is the issue. It doesn't matter who owns a bar, a store, or a government building, those are explicitly "open to the public".

[Necroticplague]

You can't invalidate property ownership because an outsider adheres to a belief in a backwards-a** system of government. Likewise, if a Vampire who WAS a Feudal lord were to travel, and did not realize he had left his own demesne. When he came across a little farmstead, he would find himself unable to waltz right in if it was not part of his territory, even if he mistakenly believed that it was.

Again, if the OWNERS (or residents, if you prefer) believed in a system wherein there was no such thing as property ownership then yes, the vampire could just walk in. Note that it's not just "private property" but "private residence" that is the issue. It doesn't matter who owns a bar, a store, or a government building, those are explicitly "open to the public".

And tell me, just how do you define "owner" without a pre-set rules of property ownership? And if there isn't a pre-set, why should the rules for ownership the vampire doesn't operate under be the ones that constrain them?

And really, how different is our theoretical communist vampire who goes "nobody's in charge, ergo all this stuff is public, thus I can enter freely" significantly different from "I'm in charge, ergo all this stuff is mine, thus I can invite myself in" that we have cannonical examples of working? All claims of authority ultimately are just self-derived and illegitimate, only existing as a social contract. So why should a vampire be bound by someone else's contract?

[Ruethgar]

There is a variant vampire in a Dungeon Mag I think, Nosferatu template? It can enter private property for short periods if it's their prey target. They also have greater strength and I think other resistances.

There is also the BoVD class whose capstone is to go into a rage ignoring some of your weaknesses.

[RedMage125]

And tell me, just how do you define "owner" without a pre-set rules of property ownership? And if there isn't a pre-set, why should the rules for ownership the vampire doesn't operate under be the ones that constrain them?

And really, how different is our theoretical communist vampire who goes "nobody's in charge, ergo all this stuff is public, thus I can enter freely" significantly different from "I'm in charge, ergo all this stuff is mine, thus I can invite myself in" that we have cannonical examples of working? All claims of authority ultimately are just self-derived and illegitimate, only existing as a social contract. So why should a vampire be bound by someone else's contract?

Yes, yes they are.

Vampires are bound by a supernatural prohibition on entering "private residences". Ownership is defined by the rules of property ownership with respect to the property itself. This is clear by the fact that a vampire can enter a public building, even if they do not know it's public.

[Necroticplague]

There is a variant vampire in a Dungeon Mag I think, Nosferatu template? It can enter private property for short periods if it's their prey target. They also have greater strength and I think other resistances.

There is also the BoVD class whose capstone is to go into a rage ignoring some of your weaknesses.
The PRC is Lifedrinker. And while it does get rid of most of the weaknesses, the prohibition against buildings and homes still remains.

Couldn't find the variation you mentioned, but I did find a different one. Terror Vampires have the ability to repress their vampiric nature, ignoring their weaknesses in exchange for losing their special qualities. Limited duration, too, but you only need one round to enter.

Yes, yes they are.

Vampires are bound by a supernatural prohibition on entering "private residences". Ownership is defined by the rules of property ownership with respect to the property itself. This is clear by the fact that a vampire can enter a public building, even if they do not know it's public.
Property doesn't have an intrinsic sense of ownership. Ownership is entirely something attributed to something by someone else. The King's claim that it's his is no more objectively true then the theoretical vampire's claim that it's everyone's.

[RedMage125]

Property doesn't have an intrinsic sense of ownership. Ownership is entirely something attributed to something by someone else. The King's claim that it's his is no more objectively true then the theoretical vampire's claim that it's everyone's.

Except that D&D explicitly shows that the objective claim is true. Strahd can enter any home in Barovia without invitation, even if the residents think of it as "their house".

Legal ownership apparently has supernatural ramifications.

[Necroticplague]

Except that D&D explicitly shows that the objective claim is true. Strahd can enter any home in Barovia without invitation, even if the residents think of it as "their house".

Legal ownership apparently has supernatural ramifications.

Yes, but under who's system of defined property rights? The Strahd example seems to show that it's the vampire's definition that matters (Since Strahd is the one making the claim that it's his).

[RedMage125]

Yes, but under who's system of defined property rights? The Strahd example seems to show that it's the vampire's definition that matters (Since Strahd is the one making the claim that it's his).

Legally. Strahd owns all the property in Barovia legally. Strahd Von Zarovich is the LEGAL owner of all of Barovia and was before his transformation into a vampire as well.

Didn't I say "legal ownership"? *looks up* Yes, yes I did.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Except that D&D explicitly shows that the objective claim is true. Strahd can enter any home in Barovia without invitation, even if the residents think of it as "their house".

Legal ownership apparently has supernatural ramifications.

You haven't addressed my question - what if legal ownership is contested? The Strahd example isn't particularly useful, because no-one really contests Strahd's position as ruler and owner of Barovia, and the way Ravenloft works rather precludes any outside interference. But what if the rather unique metaphysics of the Demiplane of Dread (i.e. the fact that Ravenloft is set up to be Strahd's own private ironic hell) were not in play?

Say the town of Kresk decides after a referendum to secede from the County of Barovia and declares the Republic of Barovia. It establishes its own laws, government and constitution, which include redistribution of property to the commons, the abolition of all noble titles, and a strict no vampires allowed policy. Obviously, Strahd does not recognise the fledgling Republic, believing Kresk to still be his rightful territory as Count of Barovia, and everything in it as his rightful property as the same.

So, here we have two conflicting legal claims, issued by two different governments, both of which have a legitimate claim to the same territory, and where no higher arbiter exists to judge between them (well, not unless an Inevitable decides to wander through, and it's anyone's guess which side it might take). Why should one take priority over another?

[Necroticplague]

Legally. Strahd owns all the property in Barovia legally. Strahd Von Zarovich is the LEGAL owner of all of Barovia and was before his transformation into a vampire as well.

Didn't I say "legal ownership"? *looks up* Yes, yes I did.

Under what legal system? Whether something is legally owned by a particular person (or, in fact, even legally ownable) depends entirely on what set of laws you're working under. If the vampire and the other person have contrasting claims under contrasting legal systems, which one is more legitimate?

[RedMage125]

Under what legal system? Whether something is legally owned by a particular person (or, in fact, even legally ownable) depends entirely on what set of laws you're working under. If the vampire and the other person have contrasting claims under contrasting legal systems, which one is more legitimate?
Now you're being obstinate.

A Communist vampire has ZERO LEGAL GROUND to stand on when claiming that a residence is not "privately owned", if the residents legally own their home under the laws of their land.

Period. That's it. End of story.

You haven't addressed my question - what if legal ownership is contested? The Strahd example isn't particularly useful, because no-one really contests Strahd's position as ruler and owner of Barovia, and the way Ravenloft works rather precludes any outside interference. But what if the rather unique metaphysics of the Demiplane of Dread (i.e. the fact that Ravenloft is set up to be Strahd's own private ironic hell) were not in play?

Say the town of Kresk decides after a referendum to secede from the County of Barovia and declares the Republic of Barovia. It establishes its own laws, government and constitution, which include redistribution of property to the commons, the abolition of all noble titles, and a strict no vampires allowed policy. Obviously, Strahd does not recognise the fledgling Republic, believing Kresk to still be his rightful territory as Count of Barovia, and everything in it as his rightful property as the same.

So, here we have two conflicting legal claims, issued by two different governments, both of which have a legitimate claim to the same territory, and where no higher arbiter exists to judge between them (well, not unless an Inevitable decides to wander through, and it's anyone's guess which side it might take). Why should one take priority over another?

Strahd was the Feudal lord of Barovia before it became a part of the Demiplane of Dread, btw.

And I don't believe the RAW cover this. I can hypothesize, but that would all be guesswork and conjecture...essentially, just my opinion.

Knowing Strahd, he'd amass a horrific army and crush the leaders of this Republic, re-annexing the land back into his fiefdom. Also, your entire conjecture assumes that this is NOT taking place in the Demiplane of Dread, because the Dark Powers would still recognize Strahd as the Dark Lord of the Domain. If it were that easy to escape the DoD, the citizens of Barovia would have done it centuries ago.

Also, your conjecture does not actually hold up legally in a Civics sense (re:"both have a legitimate claim to the territory"). America, for example, was not ACTUALLY an independent country until the treaty that ended the Revolutionary War forced Britain to recognize their claim. When Britain and the rest of Europe gradually gave up their other colonies (India, Phillipenes, Latin America, etc), those countries were not LEGALLY independent until their "mother" country recognized it as such.

So you and Necroticplague can try and twist things however you want, but the default RAW answer is that a vampire can enter any residence that he LEGALLY OWNS without permission. Also, one must note that STRAHD HIMSELF is the exception in Barovia. That same benefit does not extend to other vampires in Barovia, even ones he creates. Even if he were to legally designate one as his heir, only the feudal lord of Barovia is the "owner" of the land and the houses built on it.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Strahd was the Feudal lord of Barovia before it became a part of the Demiplane of Dread, btw.
Umm... I know? That's really not relevant.

Knowing Strahd, he'd amass a horrific army and crush the leaders of this Republic, re-annexing the land back into his fiefdom.
So law is merely a matter of force of arms, is that what you are saying? Communist Vampires only have legal ground to stand on if they bring the People's Zombie Liberation Army with them?

Also, your entire conjecture assumes that this is NOT taking place in the Demiplane of Dread, because the Dark Powers would still recognize Strahd as the Dark Lord of the Domain. If it were that easy to escape the DoD, the citizens of Barovia would have done it centuries ago.
Didn't I say "But what if the rather unique metaphysics of the Demiplane of Dread (i.e. the fact that Ravenloft is set up to be Strahd's own private ironic hell) were not in play?" *looks up* Yes, yes I did.

Also, your conjecture does not actually hold up legally in a Civics sense (re:"both have a legitimate claim to the territory"). America, for example, was not ACTUALLY an independent country until the treaty that ended the Revolutionary War forced Britain to recognize their claim.
Nope. American legal scholarship dates the establishment of the USA from 1776 (signing of the Declaration of Independence), not from 1783 (the Treaty of Paris). So does contemporary British legal scholarship, for that matter. Furthermore, the blanket statement that it was or was not 'legally' independent is simply ridiculous. In 1777, America was legally independent according to American law, and it was legally not independent according to British law. There is no universal law above these which somehow decides which is legitimate.

When Britain and the rest of Europe gradually gave up their other colonies (India, Phillipenes, Latin America, etc), those countries were not LEGALLY independent until their "mother" country recognized it as such.In the case of those whose independence was established by mutual agreement (e.g. India) the question is irrelevant and tautologous, because all such dates are identical. In the case of those whose independence was established by rebellion, the problem is the same as with the United States.

So you and Necroticplague can try and twist things however you want, but the default RAW answer is that a vampire can enter any residence that he LEGALLY OWNS without permission. Also, one must note that STRAHD HIMSELF is the exception in Barovia. That same benefit does not extend to other vampires in Barovia, even ones he creates. Even if he were to legally designate one as his heir, only the feudal lord of Barovia is the "owner" of the land and the houses built on it.
Once again, you have not confronted our actual argument. You seem to believe that there is some form of universal law that applies everywhere without contradictions or conflicts. This is not the case. It is manifestly possible, and a frequent occurrence, that something is simultaneously legally true according to one system and legally false according to another, where both legal systems claim jurisdiction over the same territory.

Incidentally, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), to enter a home or other non-public building, a Vampire must be invited in by 'one with the authority to do so', so unless there is some specific metaphysical exception in Ravenloft the benefit would be extended to any Vampire designated by Strahd, as he obviously possesses such authority.

But to use a slightly less fraught example (because Ravenloft is weird and full of weird rules exceptions 'cos it's weird), let's turn to history. Imagine that a hypothetical vampire wished to gain entrance to a restricted military building in Poland during 1941, shortly after the beginning of Operation Barbarossa. Now, originally this building was owned by the Army of the Polish Republic. In 1939 it was taken over by the Soviet Armed Forces, but the town it is in fell last week to the Wehrmacht, who are currently occupying it. Thus, we have three competing legal systems that claim ownership based on their own respective frameworks - The Polish Government-in-Exile and Home Army who claim ownership based on the popular support of the local population and recognition of Polish independence in the Treaty of Versailles, the Soviet Union who claim ownership based on being the successor state to the Russian Empire and recognition of their right to the territory in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and the German Reich who claim ownership as a matter of legal wartime occupation and seizure. All of these are willing and to some extent able to back up these claims by force of arms - the Germans may occupy the building today, but the fortunes of war are fickle.

So, whose permission does our hypothetical vampire need? Which of these competing legal systems does your seemingly universal law recognise as the one true way?

[Pleh]

My two cents:

Vampires are public domain creatures. WotC doesn't care what specific Vampire lore you want to include in your games. They tried to create a Vampire standard monster that was easy to plug into a standard dungeon crawl and satisfied all the most basic Vampire tropes.

If you want Vampires to be able to enter private property, you can just throw out that weakness. You just need to communicate with the players how you're changing the monster (just throw the party a book, "Real Facts About the Vampire" with a meta game note that the book is more accurate than the core rules for this setting).

If you want to nitpick about the limitations of their weakness, Strahd in the Ravenloft setting has set a precedent for Vampires acquiring legal authority to disregard the tenant's wishes. If you're not using Ravenloft settings, you don't have to allow this. You could argue that the Vampire's weakness is mandated by the hearts of the souls that dwell within the space, not by the society they belong to. Nothing wrong with that. It's just a DM interpretation of the setting.

If you want cold, hard, traditional vampires in your setting, you have to understand that the original vampire was a criticism of the upper class (much in the same vein of thought as modern joke: "Politics" - "Poly" meany many, and "ticks" meaning blood sucking parasites). They couldn't stand garlic because they couldn't stomach a poor man's food. They couldn't look at a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol, because both reminded them of their own depravity, striking their conscience. They couldn't stand daylight because they stayed in their decadent castles all day while the working man was out in the field with the sun pouring on his back. They can't immerse themselves in running water, because that's where the common man bathes, while the rich man bathes in a tub at home.

They drink the blood of the poor people and fatten themselves on the works of others. That's why you never permit a vampire to enter your home: nothing good can come from it. The only reason they could have to want to expose themselves to your poverty is to take your livelihood from you.

So as for Vampires working around this weakness: Blow a hole, burn it down, destroy the building all works just fine. It suits the vampire theme.

And about Vampires acquiring legal right to enter your home, I don't know which scenario is more horrific:
1. The vampire just gets permission from the state/landlord and breaks into your home.
Or
2. The vampire sends his non vampire town guards into your home and stands outside the threshold while his men hold swords to your family's throats and ask ever so politely, "May I come in?"

[Bohandas]

What happens if a vampire tries to enter without being invited? Are they repelled as if the door were covered by a forcefield? Do theu take damage? Does it never come up because the issue is that they can't bring themselves to enter?

[Bohandas]

My two cents:

Vampires are public domain creatures. WotC doesn't care what specific Vampire lore you want to include in your games. They tried to create a Vampire standard monster that was easy to plug into a standard dungeon crawl and satisfied all the most basic Vampire tropes.

If you want Vampires to be able to enter private property, you can just throw out that weakness. You just need to communicate with the players how you're changing the monster (just throw the party a book, "Real Facts About the Vampire" with a meta game note that the book is more accurate than the core rules for this setting).

If you want to nitpick about the limitations of their weakness, Strahd in the Ravenloft setting has set a precedent for Vampires acquiring legal authority to disregard the tenant's wishes. If you're not using Ravenloft settings, you don't have to allow this. You could argue that the Vampire's weakness is mandated by the hearts of the souls that dwell within the space, not by the society they belong to. Nothing wrong with that. It's just a DM interpretation of the setting.

If you want cold, hard, traditional vampires in your setting, you have to understand that the original vampire was a criticism of the upper class (much in the same vein of thought as modern joke: "Politics" - "Poly" meany many, and "ticks" meaning blood sucking parasites). They couldn't stand garlic because they couldn't stomach a poor man's food. They couldn't look at a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol, because both reminded them of their own depravity, striking their conscience. They couldn't stand daylight because they stayed in their decadent castles all day while the working man was out in the field with the sun pouring on his back. They can't immerse themselves in running water, because that's where the common man bathes, while the rich man bathes in a tub at home.

They drink the blood of the poor people and fatten themselves on the works of others. That's why you never permit a vampire to enter your home: nothing good can come from it. The only reason they could have to want to expose themselves to your poverty is to take your livelihood from you.

So as for Vampires working around this weakness: Blow a hole, burn it down, destroy the building all works just fine. It suits the vampire theme.

And about Vampires acquiring legal right to enter your home, I don't know which scenario is more horrific:
1. The vampire just gets permission from the state/landlord and breaks into your home.
Or
2. The vampire sends his non vampire town guards into your home and stands outside the threshold while his men hold swords to your family's throats and ask ever so politely, "May I come in?"

I think the vampires being destroyed by daylight was actually an invention of Universal Studios. I know for sure at least that it wasn't in the original version of Dracula written by Bram Stoker

[KillianHawkeye]

What happens if a vampire tries to enter without being invited? Are they repelled as if the door were covered by a forcefield? Do theu take damage? Does it never come up because the issue is that they can't bring themselves to enter?

Since it isn't specified, it's open to interpretation. It's not damage, though, they'd have had to mention that and say how much.

In one episode of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer spin-off, Angel, the titular character physically leans on the barrier while one of his associates searches an apartment. I'm pretty sure that was just done for laughs though, because Angel falls through the open doorway when the person dies off-screen. It was more typically depicted as a vampire catching themself at the threshold rather than actually running into something.

[Pleh]

I think the vampires being destroyed by daylight was actually an invention of Universal Studios. I know for sure at least that it wasn't in the original version of Dracula written by Bram Stoker

Bram Stroker didn't invent the vampire, either. He did with vampires what Tolkien did with fantasy: he crafted a Consolidated version that became popular. Honestly, whatever contributions universal studios has made is just as authoritative.

[Beneath]

Just within the rules, if there isn't something in some book somewhere that lets you override the weakness, then you pretty much have to make it not be a building anymore if you want to walk in.

Lawyering it depends on how it works. My personal preference is that vampires are compelled to not be so gauche as to simply walk into someone's home without ever having been invited; nothing about legal ownership or physical barriers, but they just won't do it. This is a hard one to work around though but a clever vampire can find a way in (remember that being invited in once works for life).

If "private residence" means simply "is legally private property and is someone's residence" then that's workable too. Remember that Law is a cosmic force in D&D that literally every person has to decide whether to align with or against, so this works more consistently than it does IRL because any conflicting laws have to be subservient to Law. This runs into confusion with buildings that have both public and private areas (like a shop where the shopkeeper lives in rooms above, or a palace with offices where commoners can petition bureaucrats and a throne room open for public petitioning of the monarch at certain hours, but also with royal apartments. or for that matter a tenement with dozens of separate homes, and hallways between). It would be interesting to explain why this one species of Always Chaotic Evil undead is uniquely subject to Law though (if it were Law reacting against them, it'd work on demons and slaad, at least weaker ones, but it's not them just being Lawful).

Personally, if I were running Strahd, I would assume that, rather than his legal ownership superceding his vassals and tenants, it's law that taking possession of a dwelling requires a ceremony which he must be invited to (and once he's invited once, he's invited forever. or at least until it stops being a private residence and starts again, depending on how you make that work)

I personally think a writ granting the vampire access to any house is silly (do what you want, but that's not how I'd run it. nor would I make it a physical barrier except in a comedic game); a D&D vampire is supposed to be a mastermind (that's why the template is so heavily-loaded), and for things like crossing someone else's threshold, well, there are minions for that. Or threats and deception.

[RedMage125]

TheTeaMustFlow...I'm not responding to the first chunk of your response, because you completely neglected to acknowledge or address that I even said RAW does not cover politically convoluted matters like you raised, and I that I was coming up with a conjecture on the fly.

I'm not going to defend it as if it were a fact, even though you thought you were proving something by attacking it.

You seem to believe that there is some form of universal law that applies everywhere without contradictions or conflicts. This is not the case. It is manifestly possible, and a frequent occurrence, that something is simultaneously legally true according to one system and legally false according to another, where both legal systems claim jurisdiction over the same territory.
The RAW is very clear when it comes to the most simple legal standings regarding "ownership". That you can come up with a specific example that is more convoluted than the RAW seems to cover is bully for you.

NOTHING about this statement, nor your previous, more in-depth proposition has any bearing on the suggestion of a Communist Vampire, though. Given that a vampire cannot enter a "private residence", and given that Strahd's ownership of Barovia supersedes any Barovian's concept of "ownership" of their home, it is QUITE CLEAR that the Communist Vampire cannot simply walk into wherever he wants. Just because HE thinks no one privately owns anything has NO BEARING on the ownership of a private residence. Like I said, even a non-Communist Vampire could walk into a home if the COMMUNITY was Communist, where all the property was legitimately shared by everyone in the community.


Incidentally, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), to enter a home or other non-public building, a Vampire must be invited in by 'one with the authority to do so', so unless there is some specific metaphysical exception in Ravenloft the benefit would be extended to any Vampire designated by Strahd, as he obviously possesses such authority.
Non-sequitur to my point. Is Strahd "invites" them in, yes. But if they're just out hunting and have not gotten that "invitation", then no. And and I understand the RAW, permission must be granted for each "residence". If I privately own two distinct houses, and invite a vampire into one of them, he still cannot enter the other. Which means that Strahd would have to tediously "invite" them into each home in the country. Or, you know, let them learn to fend for themselves and be more clever than having things handed to them...

*complicated 1941 Poland example*
So, whose permission does our hypothetical vampire need? Which of these competing legal systems does your seemingly universal law recognise as the one true way?
The only point I can say for sure is that the vampire CANNOT just be a Communist and waltz right in w/o permission because he thinks so.



And about Vampires acquiring legal right to enter your home, I don't know which scenario is more horrific:
1. The vampire just gets permission from the state/landlord and breaks into your home.
Or
2. The vampire sends his non vampire town guards into your home and stands outside the threshold while his men hold swords to your family's throats and ask ever so politely, "May I come in?"
They can do either, but why they would bother is beyond me, when they can just use their Dominate power to just make the person within invite them in. Nothing about the invitation prohibition specifies that it must be done of the person's own free will. Dominating someone into letting them in is a pretty common tactic.



If "private residence" means simply "is legally private property and is someone's residence" then that's workable too. Remember that Law is a cosmic force in D&D that literally every person has to decide whether to align with or against, so this works more consistently than it does IRL because any conflicting laws have to be subservient to Law. This runs into confusion with buildings that have both public and private areas (like a shop where the shopkeeper lives in rooms above, or a palace with offices where commoners can petition bureaucrats and a throne room open for public petitioning of the monarch at certain hours, but also with royal apartments. or for that matter a tenement with dozens of separate homes, and hallways between). It would be interesting to explain why this one species of Always Chaotic Evil undead is uniquely subject to Law though (if it were Law reacting against them, it'd work on demons and slaad, at least weaker ones, but it's not them just being Lawful).

Vampires are exception to quite a few things. They're also undead (immune to crits), but explicitly vulnerable to beheading by a Vorpal weapon.

[Pleh]

Dominate is a gaze attack. Doesn't work through closed doors that lack a window (which is more frequently the case for low income housing).

Dominate also has no effect on people who are only looking at the vampire. They have to look the vampire in the eyes.

Sure, when it works, it works. But it's still gonna be hit and miss.

[RedMage125]

Dominate is a gaze attack. Doesn't work through closed doors that lack a window (which is more frequently the case for low income housing).

Dominate also has no effect on people who are only looking at the vampire. They have to look the vampire in the eyes.

Sure, when it works, it works. But it's still gonna be hit and miss.

????

Low income housing usually DO have windows, because it's the only source of light inside the home. They don't have the money for lanterns or even candles to light the house all day.

Vampires get a +4 CHA. Convincing someone to come to the window should be no kind of challenge.

[Pleh]

Windows in the door itself is what I meant.

Their windows are likely to have wooden shutters as well, since glass is expensive and you want to keep out the elements and intruders.

It may not be hard to be charming and persuasive, but circumstance bonuses/penalties matter. By definition, the vampire is outside, so they have to be calling at night or otherwise shielding themselves from direct exposure to daylight. They would have no need to have the windows open at night if the point is to let light in.

They can try shouting through the walls, but if word has been getting around about families disappearing in the dead of night and some Phantom, late night caller being linked to the disappearances... well a bonus to charisma only goes so far.

Low income communities tend to be very small, tight knit, and reliant on each other. You need a fairly dense urban environment before they would fail to notice people going missing. But even in a big city, the vampire would have to pace himself to avoid arousing too much suspicion.

[Yahzi]

kender are far worse than vampires.
QFT.

Indeed, vampires were probably created as an attempt to control the kender population.

Like spiders; a necessary evil.

[RedMage125]

Windows in the door itself is what I meant.
Not at all a relevant counter to my point about using Dominate to make the person invite you in. Regardless of where in the house the window is, or the proximity of the resident to the door, being invited in is being invited in. The resident need not hold the door open to say "you may come in", nor even be in the same room or same floor as the door.


Their windows are likely to have wooden shutters as well, since glass is expensive and you want to keep out the elements and intruders.

It may not be hard to be charming and persuasive, but circumstance bonuses/penalties matter. By definition, the vampire is outside, so they have to be calling at night or otherwise shielding themselves from direct exposure to daylight. They would have no need to have the windows open at night if the point is to let light in.
So...?
The vampire picks a different house.


They can try shouting through the walls, but if word has been getting around about families disappearing in the dead of night and some Phantom, late night caller being linked to the disappearances... well a bonus to charisma only goes so far.

Low income communities tend to be very small, tight knit, and reliant on each other. You need a fairly dense urban environment before they would fail to notice people going missing. But even in a big city, the vampire would have to pace himself to avoid arousing too much suspicion.
None of this is AT ALL relevant to the point we were discussing.

[Pleh]

Not at all a relevant counter to my point about using Dominate to make the person invite you in. Regardless of where in the house the window is, or the proximity of the resident to the door, being invited in is being invited in. The resident need not hold the door open to say "you may come in", nor even be in the same room or same floor as the door.

Yes, being invited in is being invited in, but the Vampire's ability to Dominate still requires eye contact within 30ft and a Standard Action unless the Vampire is a spellcaster using the Dominate spell itself rather than their monster ability (and even a spell would require line of effect).

Our vampire using the standard monster ability needs a victim possessing not only an open window, but some means of getting them within 30ft and looking into his eyes. My point is that Dominate works when it works, but requires a little work to get it there.


So...?
The vampire picks a different house.

Oh, brilliant. The solution to the thread about how to get a Vampire onto private property ends with "he chooses a different house." Why didn't anyone else think of the possibility of the vampire just hunting for other victims elsewhere? :smallsigh:


None of this is AT ALL relevant to the point we were discussing.

Okay, what was your point then? "Dominate can easily get a vampire invited in"? I don't think there's any contest about what happens as soon as the Vampire manages to successfully dominate the victim. The real question is how did they manage to dominate the person?

My point was that Dominate itself had restrictions that make using it to get yourself invited in somewhat problematic. You need to have them look you in the eye, which means line of sight AND direct eye contact (within 30ft). If they are in the home and the vampire is not, they need an opening through which to make the connection.

That's where we got to talking about windows. Sure, most homes will have windows, but in a medieval fantasy setting, most homes will not have open windows at night (the time the vampire is most likely to strike). They'll have open windows during the day... when the vampire cannot afford to lurk outside homes trying to lure victims to their window to look him in the eye.

My point is that Dominate sure is a great finisher move, but it statistically would be much better off having something to help it get there. The Vampire could be a traveling bard and put on a performance to lure victims to open their windows or doors to enjoy the free entertainment. The could impersonate a neighbor. They could Spiderclimb to a second story or into a tree near the second story. They could attain political influence and demand they open the door on official government business.

But in a thread about how does a Vampire get into a private home, Dominate is a half solution. Anyone who is blind or just asleep is immune to Dominate and thus the Vampire is thwarted.

Sure, once you've got them Dominated, it works great. In real application, however, the Vampire has got to have a little more help getting the victim in a position where he can Dominate them.

[Segev]

First off, I would personally rule that the vampiric inability to enter a domicile uninvited has less to do with ownership in a "government-recognized" sense and more to do with the people who live there. Magic tends to be older in its recognitions and more colloquial in its understandings, where "possession is 9/10 of the law" stands a pretty solid argument for it.

Therefore, the people from whom he needs an invitation are those living there. How long they have to live there, how much effort they have to put into making "a house a home," is up to the DM; like the paradox of the heap, we can identify cases where it's definitely so, and cases where it almost certainly is not ("I've been here for years, and filled it with my knick-knacks and property" on the one end and "I just walked in here last night to get out of the rain" on the other). But the middle ground is tricky, and will call for adjudication. If somebody's trying to game it, it probably fails, however. You can't "quick-fix" something into being a home.


All of that said, the way I would have a vampire gain access without dominating a dweller would be through trickery. Befriend them outside their home and get an invitation to visit. Turn into a "dog" (wolves are like dogs; be well-groomed) and get the kid to bring you home to ask if he can keep you. Your reluctance at the threshold will likely earn a frustrated, "Get in already!" or something similar. If you have disguise self or other magics to make you look like somebody else, turn into somebody who lives there and loiter outside, waiting for somebody inside to order you to come in. (Being a recalcitrant teen or younger works well.)

[pupaeted]

Would it count to use something like Projected Image or level 15 Trickery Devotion? You create a puissant projection of yourself, you see through its eyes and control it as if it were your own body (with reduced HD or strength), and walk it into the house.

Vampire-you never actually enters the property, but you can go in and do things almost exactly as if you were in there. You probably can't use your ex/su abilities, but you can still look around, diplomance (or seduce!), stab people and cast spells. With Trickery Devotion you can even close the door behind you and cut off LoE, and you'd only lose your spellcasting.

[Pleh]

Project Image explicitly says losing line of effect disrupts the spell and it's gone, so unless there's an open door or window, you can't have it in the house without the vampire casting it also being in the same room.

The Trickery domain is plausible, but to be fair, a 15th level cleric vampire has a CR 17, so magically breaking into people's homes shouldn't be all that hard at those power levels.

[Deophaun]

And really, how different is our theoretical communist vampire who goes "nobody's in charge, ergo all this stuff is public, thus I can enter freely" significantly different from "I'm in charge, ergo all this stuff is mine, thus I can invite myself in" that we have cannonical examples of working? All claims of authority ultimately are just self-derived and illegitimate, only existing as a social contract. So why should a vampire be bound by someone else's contract?
Because the definition states that public lands are "open to all." That means that if there are two competing legal definitions, and some part is under the impression that a building is not open to them, it is not "open to all" and thus by the game's definition not public. Therefore you must find someone with authority to grant you access.

And no, random hippy doesn't have authority to grant you access, since he is under the impression that the building isn't his, but public; there is no authority for him to grant because he believes none is needed.

[Caelestion]

For what it's worth, amongst the various changes that 5E made to the vampire, one of the less noticeable ones was that they can now only be invited in by the occupant of the private property in question, not merely the owner, which makes things easier to rationalise on a psycho-magical level.

[Doctor Awkward]

Is there any way to make a vampire enter private property of any kind other than dominating the owner into inviting him or similar tactics?

The short answer? No.

"They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so." is pretty absolute.


The long answer?
Your loopholes arise from this:

They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

Take a gander at the Wikipedia reference on what can potentially count as a "public space" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_space)


a social space that is generally open and accessible to people. Roads (including the pavement), public squares, parks and beaches are typically considered public space. To a limited extent, government buildings which are open to the public, such as public libraries are public spaces, although they tend to have restricted areas and greater limits upon use.

Depending on the exact nature of local laws, seizing a building in the name of the government could be an open invitation to a vampire. also make careful note of the of the "Privatization" heading.


A privately owned public space, also known as a privately owned public open space (POPOS), is a public space that is open to the public, but owned by a private entity,

By nearly all legal definitions, vampires are given explicit permission to move in and through such spaces, as the owner has made them open to the public.

So using any legal authority a vampire might have to commercialize a private residence, they can then declare it open to the general public and move through it freely.

[RedMage125]

Yes, being invited in is being invited in, but the Vampire's ability to Dominate still requires eye contact within 30ft and a Standard Action unless the Vampire is a spellcaster using the Dominate spell itself rather than their monster ability (and even a spell would require line of effect).

Our vampire using the standard monster ability needs a victim possessing not only an open window, but some means of getting them within 30ft and looking into his eyes. My point is that Dominate works when it works, but requires a little work to get it there.
With Spider Climb at will, it's not much work at all, even if the window is difficult to get to.


Oh, brilliant. The solution to the thread about how to get a Vampire onto private property ends with "he chooses a different house." Why didn't anyone else think of the possibility of the vampire just hunting for other victims elsewhere? :smallsigh:
The point being if a vampire does not have a means of obtaining an invitation to said house, he will try another house.


Okay, what was your point then? "Dominate can easily get a vampire invited in"? I don't think there's any contest about what happens as soon as the Vampire manages to successfully dominate the victim. The real question is how did they manage to dominate the person?
The point was that a "Communist Vampire" cannot simply declare that "no one owns" a residence and waltz in. You made a point about a vampire using force to coerce an invitation, and I brought up that using non-vampire allies is much more trouble than it's worth when an invitation can be coerced magically.


My point was that Dominate itself had restrictions that make using it to get yourself invited in somewhat problematic. You need to have them look you in the eye, which means line of sight AND direct eye contact (within 30ft). If they are in the home and the vampire is not, they need an opening through which to make the connection.

That's where we got to talking about windows. Sure, most homes will have windows, but in a medieval fantasy setting, most homes will not have open windows at night (the time the vampire is most likely to strike). They'll have open windows during the day... when the vampire cannot afford to lurk outside homes trying to lure victims to their window to look him in the eye.
Gaze effects work through glass, do they not?


Sure, once you've got them Dominated, it works great. In real application, however, the Vampire has got to have a little more help getting the victim in a position where he can Dominate them.
Which is again tangential to the point, which was that coercion by brute force is crude and unnecessary. And EVEN THAT is a tangent, because a Vampire STILL cannot just declare that no one owns private property and waltz into wherever he wants.

[Esprit15]

I assume maxing out diplomacy and asking to enter is just too insane to think about.

[Pleh]

The point being if a vampire does not have a means of obtaining an invitation to said house, he will try another house.

Still avoids the subject of how to get into any given house. Also has the problem the vampire could draw attention and become a known public mence. Now he has Heroes questing to take off his head and fill it with garlic and holy wafers.


The point was that a "Communist Vampire" cannot simply declare that "no one owns" a residence and waltz in. You made a point about a vampire using force to coerce an invitation, and I brought up that using non-vampire allies is much more trouble than it's worth when an invitation can be coerced magically.

Ah. I wasn't meaning to make a counter point. Just an alternative one.

Yes, using spells is much more effective than mundane, though having the town guard in political thrall is pretty effective way to communicate, "I have spells, but I don't even need them". Can easily go the other way, "I have the town guard, but I don't need them." Both are Demoralizing displays of power.


Gaze effects work through glass, do they not?

Yes, but the average medieval fantasy home will not have glass windows, and even those that do probably have shutters to protect the expensive glass.

Yes, they can just target a house that does, but now the vampire can only target the middle to upper class, who are also high profile targets and more likely to get a bounty on the vampire's head.


Which is again tangential to the point, which was that coercion by brute force is crude and unnecessary. And EVEN THAT is a tangent, because a Vampire STILL cannot just declare that no one owns private property and waltz into wherever he wants.

Tangential to the specific Communist point, but not the OP.

I feel like the communist thing is just setting dependent. Talk to your DM if Communist vampires are right for you.

[pupaeted]

A Commoner's Guide to Defense Against Vampires
Invest in curtains.

Okay, so what if you made your vampire a warshaper 3, and gave him willing deformity (tall), and inhuman reach? You can now stretch your arms 20-25 feet away from you, that's got to be approaching the maximum size for a commoner hovel right? So you just crack open the window and slide your creepy twenty foot long arms in there. You aren't technically inside, but you can get up to things in there.

OR

A vampire with four levels of Mindbender can telepathically charm any creature within 100 feet, regardless of LoS/LoE. He charms one of the occupants, and telepathically asks and is granted permission to enter. Curtains are useless.

[RedMage125]

Still avoids the subject of how to get into any given house. Also has the problem the vampire could draw attention and become a known public mence. Now he has Heroes questing to take off his head and fill it with garlic and holy wafers.
I guess that's my mistake for assuming that we're talking about a vampire just looking for a meal, not specifically hunting a specific individual.


Yes, but the average medieval fantasy home will not have glass windows, and even those that do probably have shutters to protect the expensive glass.

Yes, they can just target a house that does, but now the vampire can only target the middle to upper class, who are also high profile targets and more likely to get a bounty on the vampire's head.
Are you sure on that? A single-pane window is remarkably cheap, even by D&D standards. It's sand+heat. It's not double-paned glass, reinforced glass, stained glass, or anything fancy. Should eb cheap enough for ANYONE wealthy enough to own their home.


Tangential to the specific Communist point, but not the OP.

I feel like the communist thing is just setting dependent. Talk to your DM if Communist vampires are right for you.
It's not setting-dependent, it's RAW-or-Houserule-dependent.

If the community was communist and believed that no property was privately owned at all, then any vampire could walk in (or would need permission from an official of the State, which simplifies matters enormously. Just Dominate the Mayor, and feed all you want from the common folk).

But if the property was privately owned, the vampire's political leanings have no bearing on the supernatural prohibition from him entering.

That's the RAW. Any DM is of course free to rule a game however they want.

[Xarteros]

By that logic, a vampire could cross a running river by keeping pace with it as they flew/swam/whatevered across, or avoid burning up in the sunlight by closing their eyes. Private property might be a social construct, but it's still a very real part of their limitations; it's silly to let them bypass it for no reason other than they just decided to.

Well no, the sun, garlic, and running water are all physical things that physically influence the Vampire, whilst the invitation onto property is more like a special mental influence. You can't argue that shutting your eyes blocks out the sun, but you CAN argue (note, argue, not definitively state) that the entrance to property is subjective.

For instance, Vampires have a definitive clause that allows them to enter public property, which means they have to be able to perceive what is considered public, vs what is considered private. If the Vampire was born and raised in communism or anything similar, he could view all places as public. Similarly, a person might think or feel that their property is private, when in reality it's publicly accessible. What's to stop a street urchin from claiming an unused public warehouse as their own? Can the Vampire still enter, even though the child is technically just squatting? You could even make the argument reversed. What's to say that a public place like a church or town hall isn't actually just a really large private house that people only gather in occasionally? How is the vampire meant to know, if it's not up to his judgement? It's something you can make an argument for, which means it's entirely possible, as long as the DM allows it.

I suppose you could say that a vampire has to know and understand, under local legal code, who is and isn't an owner of property, and what property is and isn't public or private, but then not only is that cumbersome, but potentially crippling. You can't walk down a street without being 100% sure that the street isn't actually private property, owned by some rich lord or noble. I guess then the only real answer to that issue is to say that it's an extraordinary sensory system that vampires have, that lets them identify (on some psychic level perhaps) that any particular property is 'owned'.

On that note, even if you know the property is private, there's nothing to stop a vampire from being deluded into believing they have right of entry. Sure, they're immune to mind affecting effects, but they aren't immune to bluff. Someone could convince the Vampire that they have the right to invite the Vampire in with a successful bluff check. Or, someone might sarcastically say "Yeah, sure mate. You can come in", but the Vampire might take them literally. Rolling sense-motive is an option if you want to check someone's honesty; you can always just take someone at their word. Being a Vampire doesn't mean you can't be gullible.



If the community was communist and believed that no property was privately owned at all, then any vampire could walk in (or would need permission from an official of the State, which simplifies matters enormously. Just Dominate the Mayor, and feed all you want from the common folk).

But if the property was privately owned, the vampire's political leanings have no bearing on the supernatural prohibition from him entering

Well, I believe the communist argument is more about the Vampire having an awareness of the notion of Private property at all. If the Vampire was originally a person that grew up in a community that had no view other than communism, with no exposure to the notion of private ownership, I don't see why they wouldn't feel that every area is public until they are otherwise informed. That said, once they were informed that the rest of the world functions on principles of ownership, they'd be compelled by their nature to seek access through alternate routes. As per my above argument, there's nothing to stop a Vampire from being tricked or deluded into thinking they have permission either. The clause "invited in by someone with the authority to do so" doesn't preclude bluff checks

[Necroticplague]

Well no, the sun, garlic, and running water are all physical things that physically influence the Vampire, whilst the invitation onto property is more like a special mental influence. You can't argue that shutting your eyes blocks out the sun, but you CAN argue (note, argue, not definitively state) that the entrance to property is subjective.

Whether property is private or not is only subjective if the axiomatic system has not been decided upon. Once the axioms (in this case, the body of rules that define property rights) are chosen, the privacy of property is objective. In this case, we merely have nothing one way or the other that says whether it's the vampire's or others' set of axioms that are used in determining this limit.

[RedMage125]

Well, I believe the communist argument is more about the Vampire having an awareness of the notion of Private property at all. If the Vampire was originally a person that grew up in a community that had no view other than communism, with no exposure to the notion of private ownership, I don't see why they wouldn't feel that every area is public until they are otherwise informed. That said, once they were informed that the rest of the world functions on principles of ownership, they'd be compelled by their nature to seek access through alternate routes. As per my above argument, there's nothing to stop a Vampire from being tricked or deluded into thinking they have permission either. The clause "invited in by someone with the authority to do so" doesn't preclude bluff checks

I was thinking about this and realized it's also moot, because in Communism, property is not owned by the community, it is owned by the State.

[Pleh]

I guess that's my mistake for assuming that we're talking about a vampire just looking for a meal, not specifically hunting a specific individual.

Naw, it was probably my fault for assuming that "making a vampire able to enter private property" implied going beyond their native abilities to do so. So if we're talking about their native abilities, perhaps examining their limitations helps find where we can push vampires forward.


Are you sure on that? A single-pane window is remarkably cheap, even by D&D standards. It's sand+heat. It's not double-paned glass, reinforced glass, stained glass, or anything fancy. Should eb cheap enough for ANYONE wealthy enough to own their home.

More than sand+heat. Also costs skilled labor to craft and skilled labor to install. But for a home owner, sure. Reasonable enough.

But homeowners are middle class (or upper class in feudal systems). Much more populous and vulnerable are the poor, who probably have landlords and live in hovels rather than houses


It's not setting-dependent, it's RAW-or-Houserule-dependent.

If the community was communist and believed that no property was privately owned at all, then any vampire could walk in (or would need permission from an official of the State, which simplifies matters enormously. Just Dominate the Mayor, and feed all you want from the common folk).

But if the property was privately owned, the vampire's political leanings have no bearing on the supernatural prohibition from him entering.

That's the RAW. Any DM is of course free to rule a game however they want.

Here's the excerpt of the vampire weakness towards property, just to refresh.


They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

My question: can you simply barge into someone else's domicile in a communist society? Is there no concept of privacy just because there is no private property? Is it really true that anyone can freely enter anyone else's home in a communist society, or do you think they still ask for permission before intruding?

Just because they don't own the space doesn't mean strangers have the right to invade their home.

[RedMage125]

More than sand+heat. Also costs skilled labor to craft and skilled labor to install. But for a home owner, sure. Reasonable enough.

But homeowners are middle class (or upper class in feudal systems). Much more populous and vulnerable are the poor, who probably have landlords and live in hovels rather than houses
I dunno...I'm pretty sure glass is one of the cheapest products of skilled labor than one can come across.

And many people well within the economic bracket that would denote the moniker of "commoner" own their homes in the pseudo-medieval worlds of most D&D settings. Settings with absolute Feudalism (like Barovia) tend to stand out as exceptions, rather than the rule.



Here's the excerpt of the vampire weakness towards property, just to refresh.

I thought it specified "private residence"...huh.



My question: can you simply barge into someone else's domicile in a communist society? Is there no concept of privacy just because there is no private property? Is it really true that anyone can freely enter anyone else's home in a communist society, or do you think they still ask for permission before intruding?

Just because they don't own the space doesn't mean strangers have the right to invade their home.
You are correct, they cannot. Even if it required the "owner", in a Communist society that would be the State.

But since you have pointed out what the SRD actually says...I would say you are even further correct because even in Communism it's not okay to just barge into a home (unless you're the KGB:wink:). And since it says ANY building that is not explicitly "public", a "person with the authority to do so" must invite the vampire in even if the society is Communist. Good catch.

[Aeson]

I'll just point out to those of you who are saying that the vampire can just gaze through the windows and dominate people that window glass and our ability to keep the glass clean have improved greatly in the past century or so. Assuming you have glass windows in the first place, the glass you're likely to have is likely more accurately described as 'translucent' than 'transparent,' comes in small thick panes, and is perhaps more likely to be colored than clear. It's also likely that the panes, even if notionally transparent, will be clouded with soot and dirt, especially if you are regularly burning things for heat or light. You could very easily be unable to see anything more than vague shapes and patterns of light through a realistic medieval-period glass window.

Additionally, medieval methods of making window glass require a lot of labor from highly-skilled craftsmen, especially for high-quality transparent glass. It might not be so expensive that only the wealthiest have glass windows, but it is likely that the windows of the homes of the poor are either going to be simple openings in the walls or will be filled by a material other than glass.