help with an EK build

[kenposan]

I want to build a character but I don't know how viable it is. I'm not a min/maxer so I'm not worried about optimizing, but I don't want a character that lags too far behind and doesn't benefit the party either.

Dex based, human EK. Swashbuckler type (think Athos from Three Musketeers who picked up some arcane skills), bounty hunter background (stealth).

I'm wanting two weapon fighting, armor that doesn't interfere with stealth....

I start to think I'm painting myself into a corner.

No multi-classing but feats are allowed.

Dual wielder as the first feat. After that I don't know where to take it. Medium armor master to help get the AC up w/o sacrificing Dex? Magic Initiate (Warlock) to get EB as a cantrip (and find familiar, cuz who doesn't doesn't love a little, cuddly companion). I dunno.

In our game, weapons can be arcane foci so War Caster isn't necessary for casting with a weapon in hand.

Spell suggestions are also welcome. I've never played a caster before so that is foreign territory for me.
any advise is appreciated.

[Specter]

Beware that Dual Wielder will compete directly with War Magic at level 7. I wouldn't bother with it too much, unless you have absolutely decided on it. As for feats, Mage Slayer, Resilient (WIS) and Sentinel are much better than what you mentioned. Eldritch Blast is as good as Fire Bolt without Warlock levels, and you can get Find Familiar as an EK. Medium Armor Master is total garbage.

As for spells, the guide on my signature may help.

[rooneg]

Spell suggestions are also welcome. I've never played a caster before so that is foreign territory for me.
any advise is appreciated.

For low levels the first choices are easy. Shield is a no-brainer, since half the fun of being an Eldritch Knight is casting shield all the time so you never get hit. If your DM allows Elemental Evil spells your next awesome option is Absorb Elements. For your non-evocation and abjuration choice there are various interesting options, Specter's guide should be a big help.

The other big question you'll have is what cantrips to take. Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are obvious choices if you're allowed to use the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, but you can certainly make an argument for only taking one of those two at 3rd level, using the empty slot for either a ranged cantrip or something flexible like Minor Illusion.

[kenposan]

Medium Armor Master is total garbage.


help me understand why MAM is garbage. With DEX of 16, I would get my full Dex bonus, plus it eliminates disadvantage on stealth roles. Is that not a good thing?

[Tanarii]

Dual-wielding is the worst possible option for a EK, because you need your bonus action for War Magic starting at level 7.

Medium Armor Master is a waste for any Dex 20 build, because it works out to +1 AC vs Studded Leather. It's there for builds that want to cap out at Dex 16 and Stealth with an AC of 18 in Half Plate, instead of AC 15 Studded Leather. So Max Str /Dex 16 warriors, or Max Casting stat / Dex 16 casters.

Edit: if you're going to stop at Dex 16 for your attack stat, to use your other ASI for Int and Con and feats, then yeah MAM is worth considering. You're basically trading +1 more Dex mod, and everything that affects, for +3 AC only. (Plus putting medium armor magic items in play for the character.)

[Specter]

help me understand why MAM is garbage. With DEX of 16, I would get my full Dex bonus, plus it eliminates disadvantage on stealth roles. Is that not a good thing?

What Tanarii said. As a melee attacker, you want to boost your Dex past 16, not keep it there. And even if you left it at 16, it would be spending a feat to get +2 AC.

[Finieous]

help me understand why MAM is garbage. With DEX of 16, I would get my full Dex bonus, plus it eliminates disadvantage on stealth roles. Is that not a good thing?

By 8th level, MAM amounts to a feat and ~700 gp for +1 AC. I don't think that's a good value proposition, but YMMV.

[kenposan]

Dual-wielding is the worst possible option for a EK, because you need your bonus action for War Magic starting at level 7.

But if in our game a weapon can be your arcane focus, does this concern still apply? So instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell??

[rooneg]

But if in our game a weapon can be your arcane focus, does this concern still apply? So instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell??

Your table's rules are whatever they are, but that's totally not how I'd interpret "weapons can be an arcane focus".

[Specter]

But if in our game a weapon can be your arcane focus, does this concern still apply? So instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell??

With War Magic, you can cast a cantrip and then make an attack with a bonus action.
Considering a SCAG cantrip (Booming Blade, for instance), your damage would be as follows:
(1d8+DEX)+(1d8+DEX)+1d8+Rider effect (which may or may not apply)

With two weapon fighting, you would get about the same. BUT, with a free hand, you could get +2AC with a shield. So, not worth it.

[Tanarii]

But if in our game a weapon can be your arcane focus, does this concern still apply? So instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell??
My point was that you only have one bonus action. You can either use it to make a single attack after using a cantrip via War Magic, or you can use it with extra attack. And generally (although not universally) it's more powerful to use War Magic than not to.

Which means EKs tend towards either 2H weapons, Weapon & Sheild (with War Caster), or ranged attacks.

You can just ignore war magic or treat it as a niche ability for when you make ranged attacks with your bow, of course. ie Firebolt + bonus action bow shot. And then Extra Attack + TWF bonus action attack in melee.

[rooneg]

But if in our game a weapon can be your arcane focus, does this concern still apply? So instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell??

Just to clarify what I said before, when you say "instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell", that implies that you'd be able to use your normal action to attack (presumably multiple times due to Extra Attacks), then use your bonus action to cast a spell of some sort. Assuming you don't mean a spell that happens to have a casting time of 1 bonus action this isn't how it works at all. Casting a spell requires an action, not a bonus action, regardless of if your weapon operates as an arcane focus or not.

Having your weapon operate as a focus just means you can cast a spell while holding weapons even if it has material or somatic components. You still need to fulfill the other requirements of casting a spell, like taking your action (or bonus action or reaction, depending on the spell) to cast it.

[Citan]

I want to build a character but I don't know how viable it is. I'm not a min/maxer so I'm not worried about optimizing, but I don't want a character that lags too far behind and doesn't benefit the party either.

Dex based, human EK. Swashbuckler type (think Athos from Three Musketeers who picked up some arcane skills), bounty hunter background (stealth).

I'm wanting two weapon fighting, armor that doesn't interfere with stealth....

I start to think I'm painting myself into a corner.

No multi-classing but feats are allowed.

Dual wielder as the first feat. After that I don't know where to take it. Medium armor master to help get the AC up w/o sacrificing Dex? Magic Initiate (Warlock) to get EB as a cantrip (and find familiar, cuz who doesn't doesn't love a little, cuddly companion). I dunno.

In our game, weapons can be arcane foci so War Caster isn't necessary for casting with a weapon in hand.

Spell suggestions are also welcome. I've never played a caster before so that is foreign territory for me.
any advise is appreciated.


Beware that Dual Wielder will compete directly with War Magic at level 7. I wouldn't bother with it too much, unless you have absolutely decided on it. As for feats, Mage Slayer, Resilient (WIS) and Sentinel are much better than what you mentioned. Eldritch Blast is as good as Fire Bolt without Warlock levels, and you can get Find Familiar as an EK. Medium Armor Master is total garbage.

As for spells, the guide on my signature may help.
Hi all...

For Dual Wielder, I have quite a different opinion. Let's not forget that a Fighter gets more than plain Extra Attack.
So while Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade + bonus action will be nice in some occasions, it won't always be the right call (especially with dumped INT).
And unless maxed INT, it will be plain lesser than 4 attacks + 1 bonus action attack should OP reach level 20.

Not only that, but +1 AC is always nice. ;)

As for MAM.
Let's say that OP will max DEX.
Light Armor = max AC 17.
Medium armor = max AC 17 AND disadvantage on Stealth.
Medium Armor Master = max AC 18 and no disadvantage.

By itself, MAM is a definitively good feat.

With that said, OP, in your case it is not an optimal choice. MAM is mainly geared towards people who want to maximize the benefits of a decent DEX (=16) but still use another stat for attack.

Because you will max Dexterity anyways, you would end with AC 17 no disadvantage with light armor. So as is, the feat's only benefit would be 1 AC.
What is worse, because you are an Eldricht Knight, you can easily pick up Mage Armor (which I strongly advise you to do in fact if you start with DEX 16 and low STR), which nets you AC 18 in the end. And 1 spell known is arguably a lesser expense of "resources" than a full feat.

So if you intend to bump DEX up to 20, MAM is a bad choice.
If you intend to keep at 16 (but why would you though?), it is a good choice.

Also, if you want to get Eldricht Blast, it would be better to grab Spell Sniper imo. At least you get a great range. But, unless you want it for fluff reasons, I don't see how it would be better than you using a longbow, especially since you won't have that high a CHA in the first place.

With that said, wanting Magic Initiate because you were interested in Hex is a perfectly valid reason. It's a great use for your concentration, works equally well with ranged and melee attacks. Eldricth Blast would be a "bonus then".

As for Find Familiars, you can choose it as your 1st "school-free" spell as EK.

[kenposan]

Just to clarify what I said before, when you say "instead of using the bonus action to attack with a weapon, it would be used to cast a spell", that implies that you'd be able to use your normal action to attack (presumably multiple times due to Extra Attacks), then use your bonus action to cast a spell of some sort. Assuming you don't mean a spell that happens to have a casting time of 1 bonus action this isn't how it works at all. Casting a spell requires an action, not a bonus action, regardless of if your weapon operates as an arcane focus or not.

Having your weapon operate as a focus just means you can cast a spell while holding weapons even if it has material or somatic components. You still need to fulfill the other requirements of casting a spell, like taking your action (or bonus action or reaction, depending on the spell) to cast it.

yeah, I knew that in my head by typed something completely different. My brain is running on about 4hrs sleep. What I think I was trying to say was that since a weapon can be an arcane focus (though I read somewhere else EKs can't use an arcane focus??), that to cast a spell as an action, he could still do so without taking the War Caster feat. Didn't mean the spell was a bonus action. <--lack of sleep makes kenposan a bit fuzzy.

[Citan]

For low levels the first choices are easy. Shield is a no-brainer, since half the fun of being an Eldritch Knight is casting shield all the time so you never get hit. If your DM allows Elemental Evil spells your next awesome option is Absorb Elements. For your non-evocation and abjuration choice there are various interesting options, Specter's guide should be a big help.

The other big question you'll have is what cantrips to take. Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are obvious choices if you're allowed to use the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, but you can certainly make an argument for only taking one of those two at 3rd level, using the empty slot for either a ranged cantrip or something flexible like Minor Illusion.


With War Magic, you can cast a cantrip and then make an attack with a bonus action.
Considering a SCAG cantrip (Booming Blade, for instance), your damage would be as follows:
(1d8+DEX)+(1d8+DEX)+1d8+Rider effect (which may or may not apply)

With two weapon fighting, you would get about the same. BUT, with a free hand, you could get +2AC with a shield. So, not worth it.
First, let's not forget that usually, you have to choose between SCAG or EE.
Now, let's make some thoughts...

I'll take the following hypothetic build: starting DEX 16, starting CON 16, starting INT 14.
6 ASI, including +2 DEX, +2 DEX, Dual Wielder, Resilient Wisdom, Magic Initiate: Warlock (Hex). Let's bump INT with the last for the sake of improving weapon cantrips side.

At level 8, let's say he took +2 DEX, Dual Wielder, Magic Initiate: Warlock.
We will suppose Hex has been cast on a round before. Since bonus action is always a weapon attack, we compare only actions in their "best case".
1. Booming Blade: (1d8+4) + 1d8 + (2d8 if target moves) + 1d6 (Hex). Total average 25,5 single target (-3,5 without Hex, -9 if no move).

2. Green Flame Blade: (1d8+4) + 1d8 + 1d6 + (2+1d8 on second creature): Total average 23 on two creatures, 17,5 single-target (-3,5 Hex).

3. Extra Attack: 2*(1d8+4+1d6) = 24 average.

At level 12, he maxed DEX. He also gets upgraded Extra Attack and cantrips

1. Booming Blade: (1d8+5)+2d8+1d6+(3d8): average 22 single target no move, 35,5 if move.

2. GFB: (1d8+5) + 2d8 + 1d6 + (2+2d8 on second creature), average 17 single target, 11,5 second, total average 28,5.

3. Extra Attack: 3*(1d8+5+1d6) = average 39.

At level 20, he let's say he used all previous ASI to bump INT as high as possible because he want to play with spells. INT is now 20.

1. Booming Blade: (1d8+5)+3d8+1d6+(4d8): average 26,5 on hit, 18 on move, total average 46,5.

2. GFB: (1d8+5) + 3d8 + 1d6 + (5+3d8 on second creature), average 26,5 on first target, 18,5 second, total average 47.

3. Extra Attack: 4*(1d8+5+1d6) = average 52.

Sooo... For a Fighter, especially for a Fighter in fact, Dual-Wielding stays extremely competitive with just an Hex added on top.

Also, let's take out Hex of the equation: dual-wielding still has more average damage, because weapon cantrips = 1 chance to hit, 0 on miss. Whereas dual-wielder has several chances. On the long run, all the misses will hurt the " total damage statistic". ;)
Dual-wielder also profits much more from any buff the party may give, either to-hit buffs or damage buffs, since there are more occasions.
It also builds more upon magical weapons, which usually provide extra +1 or +2 damage.

Finally, it allows you to distribute damage as you see fit between several enemies, or swap one weapon attack to shove or push an enemy. Especially when combined with Haste intead of Hex and/or Mobile feat.

That kind of flexibility is plain impossible with weapon cantrips.

Since you already have Dual Wielder, you could even push the trip up to taking Tavern Brawler to wield a shield and still gain all the benefits of dual wielding.
In fact, I think you could already just wield a shield and still gain dual-wielding benefit (since PHB, unless I'm mistaken, does not require you to be proficient into the wielded weapons) but if you are not proficient then your bonus action attack would have low to hit and low damage, so near useless...
With Tavern Brawler in the mix though, you lose a bit of damage (off-hand 1d4 instead of 1d8) but you retain benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting Style, Dual Wielder, and you get +2 to AC. ;)

EDIT: Darn, I'm so used to getting Hex through multiclass that I mixed things up with Magic Initiate. Having Hex as a once per long rest is diminishing its interest significantly... :/
Good things the other points stand though. ;)

But for you OP, Magic Initiate will probably has lesser value than plenty of other feats (Mobile, Alert, Sentinel, Defensive Duelist)...


So I'd suggest the following...
Start with 16 DEX (mandatory), 16 CON and 14 INT if possible with race, or be INT 12 as a Variant Human so you can have the Dual Wielder feat at level 1.
If you want to maximize defense or just like the combo, take Tavern Brawler at level 4. Otherwise, bump DEX.
Level 6, bump DEX.
Level 8, Resilient: Wisdom, because it's important.
Then whatever you want.

Take Shield, Magic Missile and Find Familiar as your first spells.
Later Absorb Elements if authorized.
For 2nd level, Mirror Image is a given.
For 3rd level, Haste is the obvious.
You will usually blow your slots on these spells, so choose whatever else you want as the other ones. ;)

[rooneg]

First, let's not forget that usually, you have to choose between SCAG or EE.
Now, let's make some thoughts...

If you're at a table with a DM who's ruling that you can use your sword as an arcane focus, I don't think you're likely to be using AL PHB+1 rules for what sources you can get spells from ;-)

[Citan]

If you're at a table with a DM who's ruling that you can use your sword as an arcane focus, I don't think you're likely to be using AL PHB+1 rules for what sources you can get spells from ;-)

Oh, right, good catch!
I missed that information from OP post.
THAT sure is a nice DM! ;)

One less potential drawback on dual-wielding then. ;)

[kenposan]

Hi all...

What is worse, because you are an Eldricht Knight, you can easily pick up Mage Armor (which I strongly advise you to do in fact if you start with DEX 16 and low STR), which nets you AC 18 in the end. And 1 spell known is arguably a lesser expense of "resources" than a full feat.


Mage Armor! *&#$@ I didn't even think about this because was so focused on the 'fighter' aspect and not the EK aspect.

Let me do some math to see if I'm following because this stuff makes my brain hurt:

Breastplate+16 DEX+ dual wielder= AC 17

Mage Armor+16 DEX+dual wielder= AC 17 and I have no armor disadvantage.

Mage Armor+18 DEX (two ASI)= AC 18 and I have no armor disadvantage.

So pumping up DEX to get higher modifiers+mage armor= awesomeness. :-)

And if I'm using finesse weapons, the Dex increases benefit there as well.

[rooneg]

Oh, right, good catch!
I missed that information from OP post.
THAT sure is a nice DM! ;)

One less potential drawback on dual-wielding then. ;)

Sure, but that said, I do think numbers that assume Hex is up are a little misleading. Concentration gets dropped sometimes and you only get one cast a day for it if it's from Magic Initiate, plus you're taking a round off to actually cast it, which you could have spent just hitting someone with a sword. If you don't have Hex in a high level slot that lets it last forever that turn spent casting it is a real cost.

[Sir cryosin]

Ok so you can use your sword as a arcane focus. But that doesn't mean you can still cast spells because a arcane focus only takes care of material components. You still can't cast spells that have the somatic part. you can't do with out warcaster feat.

[Citan]

Sure, but that said, I do think numbers that assume Hex is up are a little misleading. Concentration gets dropped sometimes and you only get one cast a day for it if it's from Magic Initiate, plus you're taking a round off to actually cast it, which you could have spent just hitting someone with a sword. If you don't have Hex in a high level slot that lets it last forever that turn spent casting it is a real cost.
True that, but I was focused on making a comparison between two-weapon fighting and cantrip + War Magic, so I made the case with Hex enabled in both cases. And with Hex being cast as a bonus action, it is not such a big deal in the first place (consider how many good spells actually require your bonus action).

So can still cast Hex AND Attack or Cast a cantrip in the same turn.

You're right on the concentration point also, although it should be noted that OP would have a fairly decent save throughout (proficiency + starting 16 in CON).

Anways, if you fully read my post, you already realized I made the case with having in mind that OP could cast Hex several times a day, because I'm so used to dipping Warlock in such cases.
That's why I finished my post putting it aside in the context of OP: once per long rest is nice, but indeed not worth a feat, especially when it's not strictly necessary for you.


Ok so you can use your sword as a arcane focus. But that doesn't mean you can still cast spells because a arcane focus only takes care of material components. You still can't cast spells that have the somatic part. you can't do with out warcaster feat.
Well, I'm pretty sure that there was an official ruling admitting that the hand holding a focus can also take care of the somatic components.
Can't remember at all if it was an errata or an "official sage advice" though...

[Sir cryosin]

True that, but I was focused on making a comparison between two-weapon fighting and cantrip + War Magic, so I made the case with Hex enabled in both cases. And with Hex being cast as a bonus action, it is not such a big deal in the first place (consider how many good spells actually require your bonus action).

So can still cast Hex AND Attack or Cast a cantrip in the same turn.

You're right on the concentration point also, although it should be noted that OP would have a fairly decent save throughout (proficiency + starting 16 in CON).

Anways, if you fully read my post, you already realized I made the case with having in mind that OP could cast Hex several times a day, because I'm so used to dipping Warlock in such cases.
That's why I finished my post putting it aside in the context of OP: once per long rest is nice, but indeed not worth a feat, especially when it's not strictly necessary for you.


Well, I'm pretty sure that there was an official ruling admitting that the hand holding a focus can also take care of the somatic components.
Can't remember at all if it was an errata or an "official sage advice" though...

Then what the point of warcaster feat other then advantage and reaction spell aoo.

[Citan]

Then what the point of warcaster feat other then advantage and reaction spell aoo.
Well, because that "other" is pretty significant?
Booming Blade is an increasing added value compared to a normal opportunity attack. You not only deal immediately more damage, but you also give an incentive to stay put. So you have some tactical influence.

And advantage on concentration checks, when stacked on good Constitution and proficiency, means that the Fighter can reliably use spells such as Fog Cloud, Expeditious Retreat, later Blur, Magic Weapon, Spider Climb and even later Haste or Fly without fearing too much of losing concentration, because he gets...
- at level 1, around +5 to save.
- at level 12 (presumably having taken Warcaster somewhere along the way), it's 3+4+advantage,
- at level 20 it's (probably one CON bump) 4+6+advantage.

So now, you have to sustain at least 22 damage to have any chance at all to have broken concentration.

While I don't like so much the hypothesis "advantage = 5", because its true value really depends on target number...
If you confer to this table (http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/), you can see that even for a instance of 40 damage, meaning you have to beat 20, so reach at least 10 on roll, you go from ~50% to ~75%.
For an instance of 50 damage, you would have to beat 25, so roll 15. With advantage, you go from ~30% to ~50%.

Sure, if you battle the biggest creatures that can deal over 60 in a single blow, even all of this won't help much. But for someone that will usually be fighting against several enemies, the biggest risk is usually not a few strong punch, but many medium punches because it means that many more rolls.

With this setup, a Fighter could stand among a horde of mooks and laugh away while they try to break his concentration (provided they even manage to hit)... Before unleashing a Fireball on himself to take care of them all in one fell swoop (sure, a Burning Hands after moving would be more efficient... But much less classy XD)

---
By the way, please note that I wasn't the one suggesting Warcaster in the first place. It was suggested along with Booming Blade, because it makes a nice package overall.

OP could certainly also decide not to take it also, because he's not interested in Booming Blade / he does not intend to use concentration spells that much / he has more pressing features or stat bumps to make.
That was actually my point of earlier: a build centered on plain dual-wielding, with weapon cantrips as just bonus for some situations, can work very well. There are plenty of interesting feats to take that could be overall more useful in OP's case imo: Sentinel, Mage Slayer, Alert, Mobile, etc. And enough non-concentration buff spells to usually consume most slots. And the last benefit of Warcaster is void per the houserule... ;)

Warcaster's interest really comes down to whether OP wants to play with concentration spells or not. Good thing is, Booming Blade as OA becomes really interesting with the 11th bump, so he has plenty of time to decide on that. ^^