I want to optimize a rogue with booming blade

[Klorox]

I love love LOVE the booming blade/bonus action disengage combo. It's awesome.

I can't decide how to optimize it.

Do I go with an arcane trickster, or a swashbuckler? Is elf the best racial choice (cantrip/DEX bonus) or is there another?

TIA

[Draco4472]

I would go Swashbuckler, as you can cast Booming Blade then move away, forcing them to take extra damage to move to you. In addition, Booming Blade will work with other Swashbuckler features that require you to make a melee weapon attack.

As for races, Half-Elf with the High-Elf variant presented in the SCAG would be better then high-elf, as you'd get a higher Charisma for buckling-swashes even better. Variant Human also works, and choosing Magic Initiate (required to get Booming-Blade at level 1) would get you another cantrip and a spell. Choosing Booming-Blade, Eldritch Blast, and Find Familiar would give you a ranged option and the ability to use your familiar to scout and such. Mage Armor is probably a better choice then Find familiar in a low-magic campaign, where you'll be unlikely to find +1 Studded leather or better.

[Daehron]

I can't decide how to optimize it.

TIA

You already did. The rest is fluff. What other abilities / tactics do you want to have? That will determine the rest. Booming Blade + Disengage will not solve every problem...

Swashbuckler for faster initiatives. Speaks for itself.

AT for imposing disadvantage on saves. Watched a lvl 13 AT use Hide + Hypnotic Pattern quite effectively.

[Grod_The_Giant]

High Elf with Spell Sniper. Pick up Booming Blade from your race, duck in, deliver Booming Blade with a whip from 10ft away, duck out.

[Finieous]

You already did. The rest is fluff. What other abilities / tactics do you want to have?

This is really true. Booming blade is a cantrip. Cunning Action is a core rogue class ability gained at 2nd level.

I started such a character at 1st level and went variant human with Magic Initiate (booming blade, minor illusion, and find familiar [owl for advantage]). At 3rd, I went AT and picked up shield for my out-of-school spell.

[Citan]

I love love LOVE the booming blade/bonus action disengage combo. It's awesome.

I can't decide how to optimize it.

Do I go with an arcane trickster, or a swashbuckler? Is elf the best racial choice (cantrip/DEX bonus) or is there another?

TIA
You did already. XD
Now everything else is up to your character...

I could see a nice STR-oriented, Half-Elf Swashbuckler using a shield (Moderately armored or dip) with Shield Master feat: move, bonus action Shove (with expertise), action Booming Blade, move away while laughing. You are perfectly safe from the enemy.
Not sure is "standing up" is considered movement by RAW though. If it is not them the combo would be a bit overkill.
On the plus side, you can get pretty decent armor and insane Shove checks.
On the minus side, you need 2* dips or feat (to get shield proficiency and Booming Blade) in addition to Shield Master so it's expensive.
Unless... Favored Soul Sorcerer is authorized: absolutely the best for you: built-in medium+shield proficiency and Booming Blade booting off CHA. ;) Also emergency Shield.

It could also work as a DEX-based Swashbuckler with a dip in Draconic Sorcerer, but you would lose a few points on Shove checks.

If you don't like playing with Shove, I'd say Arcane Trickster is the best choice then. You can go any race you want, you will still get Booming Blade, in addition to some nice defensive tools.

[Socratov]

Take thief and take Mobility at 4th lvl. It allows you to move in your speed, attack using Booming blade and move out without taking AoO's. You can also handle items with a bonus action (so you can move in, attack and move to your buddy to shove a healing pot into his mouth...

[bid]

I love love LOVE the booming blade/bonus action disengage combo. It's awesome.

I can't decide how to optimize it.

Do I go with an arcane trickster, or a swashbuckler? Is elf the best racial choice (cantrip/DEX bonus) or is there another?
Not swashbuckler. BB means you don't get a bonus attack and your bonus action is free for disengage.

And no bonus attack means you are anti-optimizing. No second chance at SA is a loss of around 30% DPR. (wagging it) It depends how often you'd rather run than land your SA, though.

[Socratov]

Not swashbuckler. BB means you don't get a bonus attack and your bonus action is free for disengage.

And no bonus attack means you are anti-optimizing. No second chance at SA is a loss of around 30% DPR. (wagging it) It depends how often you'd rather run than land your SA, though.

Without to-hit reducers like sharpshooter or GWM that's fine. Besides, booming blade forbids de use of ba attack and gives back the damage it does, which scales better then ba attack. It's actually a great combo and allows for more options of action usage.

[Finieous]

And no bonus attack means you are anti-optimizing. No second chance at SA is a loss of around 30% DPR. (wagging it) It depends how often you'd rather run than land your SA, though.

That's why you have an owl.

[RulesJD]

Not swashbuckler. BB means you don't get a bonus attack and your bonus action is free for disengage.

And no bonus attack means you are anti-optimizing. No second chance at SA is a loss of around 30% DPR. (wagging it) It depends how often you'd rather run than land your SA, though.

^^^^ Feel free to ignore that.

Use Cunning Action to Dash, means you can consistently be several squares away from enemies forcing movement.

Also, depending on just how Optimized you want to go with Rogue + Booming Blade, here is a rough breakdown of the optomized build I've posted several times:

1. 3 levels of Rogue for Swashbuckler
2. 1 level of Sorc for Draconic Resilience (permanent +1 armor) + Booming Blade + Shield
3. 3 levels of Battlemaster Fighter for Precision, Riposte, and Pushing
4. Rogue+ (pickup Sentinel feat)


Use Pushing to force movement after hitting enemies with BB that are engaged with friendlies. Use Parry/Action Surge/Sentinel for off-turn sneak attacks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't forget to add Warcaster for potential off-turn Booming Blades!

[bid]

Without to-hit reducers like sharpshooter or GWM that's fine. Besides, booming blade forbids de use of ba attack and gives back the damage it does, which scales better then ba attack. It's actually a great combo and allows for more options of action usage.
No, I meant TWF vs BB.

Assuming (for rogue 5):
TWF : 2d6+3 * .65 + 3d6 * .88 = 18.19 DPR
BB (no move) : 1d8+3+1d8+3d6 * .65 = 14.625 DPR
BB (with move) : 1d8+3+3d8+3d6 * .65 = 20.475 DPR

The target must move 60% of the time for BB to do more damage. And as long as the target did not enter melee with another character, he cannot attack without moving. If you can find an unengaged enemy, that 25% DPR reduction might be worth suppressing that enemy.

Before level 5, BB will do less damage than TWF even if the target moves.

[bid]

Don't forget to add Warcaster for potential off-turn Booming Blades!
Assuming you move out, it's unlikely an enemy will step into your melee range unless he plans to attack you. There's no reason to give a free OA, and there's little reason not to attack the rogue anyway.

[Socratov]

No, I meant TWF vs BB.

Assuming (for rogue 5):
TWF : 2d6+3 * .65 + 3d6 * .88 = 18.19 DPR
BB (no move) : 1d8+3+1d8+3d6 * .65 = 14.625 DPR
BB (with move) : 1d8+3+3d8+3d6 * .65 = 20.475 DPR

The target must move 60% of the time for BB to do more damage. And as long as the target did not enter melee with another character, he cannot attack without moving. If you can find an unengaged enemy, that 25% DPR reduction might be worth suppressing that enemy.

Before level 5, BB will do less damage than TWF even if the target moves.

the offhand won't give the dexbonus to dmg as the rogue does not get the TWF fighting style. also, what AC and what to-hit are you assuming?

[Gignere]

No, I meant TWF vs BB.

Assuming (for rogue 5):
TWF : 2d6+3 * .65 + 3d6 * .88 = 18.19 DPR
BB (no move) : 1d8+3+1d8+3d6 * .65 = 14.625 DPR
BB (with move) : 1d8+3+3d8+3d6 * .65 = 20.475 DPR

The target must move 60% of the time for BB to do more damage. And as long as the target did not enter melee with another character, he cannot attack without moving. If you can find an unengaged enemy, that 25% DPR reduction might be worth suppressing that enemy.

Before level 5, BB will do less damage than TWF even if the target moves.

In game experience when our rogue tries to two weapon fight to land more sneak attacks he drops a lot more and goes to 0 DPR and wastes another character's action. When he uses GFB or BB (AT) and disengage, he tends to stay around with barely any hp lost. So in our experience when the rogue uses the melee cantrips his DPR is far higher.

[Citan]

Not swashbuckler. BB means you don't get a bonus attack and your bonus action is free for disengage.

And no bonus attack means you are anti-optimizing. No second chance at SA is a loss of around 30% DPR. (wagging it) It depends how often you'd rather run than land your SA, though.

^^^^ Feel free to ignore that.

Use Cunning Action to Dash, means you can consistently be several squares away from enemies forcing movement.

1. 3 levels of Rogue for Swashbuckler
2. 1 level of Sorc for Draconic Resilience (permanent +1 armor) + Booming Blade + Shield
3. 3 levels of Battlemaster Fighter for Precision, Riposte, and Pushing
4. Rogue+ (pickup Sentinel feat)

@OP Was totally reply something along the lines.
-1 to bid, +1 to RulesJD.

Being Swashbuckler means you are free to disengage. Mobile feat would achieve the same, but since you would usually use Booming Blade the net benefit is the same...

So this means you basically double your mobility every turn now.
Or you can Hide every turn now (provided obviously you can get some full cover or be otherwise invisible).

I wouldn't care so much about Fighter though, unless you really want to be a solo player.
Booming Blade effect doesn't trigger if you push the enemy with Pushing Strike manoeuver, because it is NOT a "willing movement".
Riposte is nice but it eats your reaction, which you may have a chance to spend later with an OA anyways. AND if you take Warcaster, it makes waiting for OA a better choice because you can use Booming Blade.
Precision Strike is the solid one here, but as a Rogue you could also Hide before attacking if your next attack is important.

Don't misunderstand, there are all nice manoeuvers which are 4 per short rest, and you get also Action Surge.
Is it a solid benefit? Certainly.
Is it worth a delay of 3 whole levels in Rogue and a lower cap, including 2d6 less every turn, and not having "no advantage against you whatever happens" feature? Not in my view.

Unless, again, you want a character that never tries to collaborate with others and usually wanted alone, you will find many other ways to help you strike reliably: martial friends shoving creatures for you, a caster putting a Fog Cloud or Darkness in which you can hide, Bless on you or Faerie Fire on foes...

You really only need...
- the cantrip (Magic Initiate, Sorcerer dip for Swash or plain Arcane Trickster).
- a way to get a free disengage against the enemy you hit (Mobile feat or Swashbuckler's 3rd level benefit).
- Warcaster to be able to use Booming Blade on opportunity attacks.

Then between archetypes...
- Arcane Trickster will probably require you to take the Mobile feat. However, you will have a much better defense for the big fight of the day, you get plenty of dirty tricks with Mage Hand Ledgerman, and at higher level you can have plenty of fun with save or suck spells (or just Haste yourself).
- Swashbuckler gives a small to decent boost to Initiative, free disengage on your target, and an interesting tanking feature at level 9 (especially coupled with Booming Blade and possibly Sentinel: you can totally disable any martial creature).

Both are really good choices, so it's rather a matter of "do you want to play with magic beyond Booming Blade"? Yes? AT. No? Swash.

[Rysto]

I'm AFB, but is it possible to get Flaming Sphere on an AT? That'd be something that could use your bonus action, and potentially could give an enemy the incentive to move and trigger the BB damage.

[Citan]

I'm AFB, but is it possible to get Flaming Sphere on an AT? That'd be something that could use your bonus action, and potentially could give an enemy the incentive to move and trigger the BB damage.
Yeah, it's possible, but it "eats" your "school-free" learn option of 8th level. ;)

I'm not sure it would be a sound choice for a Rogue though. You have serious competition already for the bonus action, and spellcasting slots are fairly limited. Especially if you want to keep slots for Mirror Image.
Also, consider that at the time you get it, it would be a choice between 2d8 thunder damage and 2d6 fire damage. At most, a creature will take 1,5 turn to understand what is best for it, meaning the time to try and move, be hurst by Booming Blade, then be hurt by Flaming Sphere at the start of next turn and compare.
Not accounting for the fact that a significant minority of creatures is fire resistant or immune. ;)

EDIT: Putting OP question aside though, I would find unefficient damage-wise but totally optimum fun-wise to have a multiclass AT/Wizard that just casts a high-level Flaming Sphere with the action, hides somewhere safe with his bonus action, then just stay hidden as a perfect coward while moving the sphere around, burning up creatures while they are enraged not finding him... XD

[bid]

In game experience when our rogue tries to two weapon fight to land more sneak attacks he drops a lot more and goes to 0 DPR and wastes another character's action. When he uses GFB or BB (AT) and disengage, he tends to stay around with barely any hp lost. So in our experience when the rogue uses the melee cantrips his DPR is far higher.
Thank you for your constructive criticism. That a good argument.

[bid]

the offhand won't give the dexbonus to dmg as the rogue does not get the TWF fighting style. also, what AC and what to-hit are you assuming?
2d6+3 * .65

That's 1d6+3 and 1d6, no offhand bonus here.
And .65 means hit on 8, +6 prof/Dex = AC14

Better AC makes TWF stronger. Well, if you survive...

[bid]

- Arcane Trickster will probably require you to take the Mobile feat. However, you will have a much better defense for the big fight of the day, you get plenty of dirty tricks with Mage Hand Ledgerman, and at higher level you can have plenty of fun with save or suck spells (or just Haste yourself).
- Swashbuckler gives a small to decent boost to Initiative, free disengage on your target, and an interesting tanking feature at level 9 (especially coupled with Booming Blade and possibly Sentinel: you can totally disable any martial creature).
I'm sorry but what are you doing with your bonus action?
Are you always dashing?

It seems you could always disengage and save a feat, is the extra mobility that important?

[Laserlight]

In game experience when our rogue tries to two weapon fight to land more sneak attacks he drops a lot more and goes to 0 DPR and wastes another character's action. When he uses GFB or BB (AT) and disengage, he tends to stay around with barely any hp lost. So in our experience when the rogue uses the melee cantrips his DPR is far higher.

If you're going to TWF as a rogue, you ought to be a Swashbuckler, in which case you rarely need to spend your BA on Disengage.

[Finieous]

Assuming (for rogue 5):
TWF : 2d6+3 * .65 + 3d6 * .88 = 18.19 DPR
BB (no move) : 1d8+3+1d8+3d6 * .65 = 14.625 DPR


BB (no move) will be 19.74 with an owl and 21.65 DPR including crit chance. The gap will just get bigger with adder-damage and cantrip scaling with level. Sometimes your owl will die (wasting at least one enemy attack) or be out of position to Help, but it's still going to be the higher-damage strategy over the course of an adventuring day.

[Zalabim]

It's a checklist.


You need booming blade
You need a way to disengage without provoking an OA
You need a way to qualify for sneak attack
You need this all to work on a creature that needs to move on its next turn
If you're not getting the bonus damage on movement, you really need to have advantage


The simplest way is probably AT at level 3, using Cunning Action to disengage and Find Familiar (owl) to get help on an attack.

-----------

(Assuming level 5)
TWF would be 19.632875 with an owl helping, including the crit chance. Advantage really wraps up the BB package.

[Citan]

I'm sorry but what are you doing with your bonus action?
Are you always dashing?

It seems you could always disengage and save a feat, is the extra mobility that important?
Well, in essence you are right, extra mobility is not always that important.
I guess it depends mainly on how you play, which itself depends on party composition.

If you are supposed to stay in the frontline because you're basically the only one with a bit of resilience, then Dashing as a bonus action is useless. ;)

But if you are not forced into this, then Dashing means you can fully "switch" from back to front lines for the strike then fall back to safety.

It also means you have many more options if you want to reach a cover.
It also means you can reach an enemy that is behind some creatures or obstacles because the double speed allows you to make a detour long enough to avoid them.

Swashbuckler means you can also Hide as a bonus action, so you can safely attack and go back hidden in your place every turn if enemy is close enough.

Is it useful every time? Certainly not. There will be some situations where Dashing is an overkill use of your bonus action.
There will be some situations where both Dashing and Hiding are bad uses of your bonus action.

That's also why I suggested combining it with Shield Master one way or another, because it is a great, ever valid use of bonus action where the previous ones aren't good (not only do you give yourself advantage for Booming Blade, you give advantage to your friends too). Also I think it fits a swashbuckler well. ;)

But I find the situations where either is a good use common enough to consider it a solid benefit. Add to that a better Initiative and a kinda Compelled Duel later, it really makes the archetype a great choice. ;)

Sure, in the situations described above, you could just use ranged attacks instead, but OP's point was making the use of Booming Blade a defining pillar of his character (also you would be limited to one attack anyways unless paying Crossbow Expert). So I make suggestions based on the fact that ranged attack are a no go except very specific situations (flying creatures). ;)

EDIT: Also, there are still situations when a Rogue would like to Disengage, whatever archetype he is, namely when he has been surrounded.
And you are not forced to use Booming Blade either. If the situation requires it, you can prefer using two-weapon fighting. The choice of archetype has nothing to do with that. ;)

[djreynolds]

I like idea of shield master, even with a 8 strength, expertise in athletics allows you to keep up with a 20 strength fighter.

Question-- Though booming blade is an attack, it is also a spell, does it count as using the attack action or using an action to cast a spell... would you still get to use the bonus action from shield master?

[Socratov]

I like idea of shield master, even with a 8 strength, expertise in athletics allows you to keep up with a 20 strength fighter.

Question-- Though booming blade is an attack, it is also a spell, does it count as using the attack action or using an action to cast a spell... would you still get to use the bonus action from shield master?

it's an action used to cast a spell (which requires you to make an attack). Please note that this is the exact reason you don't get to make any iterative attacks with it.

[Citan]

I like idea of shield master, even with a 8 strength, expertise in athletics allows you to keep up with a 20 strength fighter.

Question-- Though booming blade is an attack, it is also a spell, does it count as using the attack action or using an action to cast a spell... would you still get to use the bonus action from shield master?
...
...
I'm totally wrong.
Thanks to you, I went to check PHB again. As a fact, my memory was wrong, it does require you to take specifically the Attack action to get the bonus action benefit.

So it just doesn't work with Booming Blade (which is still "Casting a spell" action, even if a weapon attack is involved in the effect). So my suggestion is utterly bad for someone who wants to use Booming Blade as his main attack...

------> *goes away in shame* XD

[RulesJD]

*snip*

I wouldn't care so much about Fighter though, unless you really want to be a solo player.
Booming Blade effect doesn't trigger if you push the enemy with Pushing Strike manoeuver, because it is NOT a "willing movement".
Riposte is nice but it eats your reaction, which you may have a chance to spend later with an OA anyways. AND if you take Warcaster, it makes waiting for OA a better choice because you can use Booming Blade.
Precision Strike is the solid one here, but as a Rogue you could also Hide before attacking if your next attack is important.

*snip*

Should have explained more.

1. Pushing isn't to trigger BB when you push them. It's so they're 15ft away from the enemies they want to attack, so they have to move back in to reengage. You use it when the enemy is adjacent to an Ally and thus not likely to move if you hit them with BB.

2. You're right about Riposte eating up your Reaction, but when you combine it with Sentinel, it means you almost always get an off-turn sneak attack, which HUGELY increases the Rogues average DPR.

[Theodoxus]

2. You're right about Riposte eating up your Reaction, but when you combine it with Sentinel, it means you almost always get an off-turn sneak attack, which HUGELY increases the Rogues average DPR.

You don't need Sentinel to make it happen. Riposte is an off-turn attack, it grants sneak. I've found it far more often to come up than someone running away from my rogue (not that I've played a Rogue/Fighter yet - but this build is way up on my list of wanting to try someday.)

[Citan]

Should have explained more.

1. Pushing isn't to trigger BB when you push them. It's so they're 15ft away from the enemies they want to attack, so they have to move back in to reengage. You use it when the enemy is adjacent to an Ally and thus not likely to move if you hit them with BB.

2. You're right about Riposte eating up your Reaction, but when you combine it with Sentinel, it means you almost always get an off-turn sneak attack, which HUGELY increases the Rogues average DPR.

1. Ok. Nice tactic (although most enemies could still use thrown weapons or such ;)).

2. I make the reverse point: with Sentinel, you already have invested into getting opportunity attacks more often. And it is a permanent benefit.
Compared to that, you invest 3 whole levels (2d6 Sneak Attack + other perks) just for, at most, 4 off-turn attacks per short rest. In the long run, the math just doesn't add up in favor of Battlemaster dip. You are favoring some more controlled nova (Riposte + Action Surge), but are losing out damage-wise every other turn of the (several ?) encounter(s).

[RulesJD]

1. Ok. Nice tactic (although most enemies could still use thrown weapons or such ;)).

2. I make the reverse point: with Sentinel, you already have invested into getting opportunity attacks more often. And it is a permanent benefit.
Compared to that, you invest 3 whole levels (2d6 Sneak Attack + other perks) just for, at most, 4 off-turn attacks per short rest. In the long run, the math just doesn't add up in favor of Battlemaster dip. You are favoring some more controlled nova (Riposte + Action Surge), but are losing out damage-wise every other turn of the (several ?) encounter(s).

Enemy thrown/ranged attacks are almost universally worse than their melee, so even though they can still attack you've cut their damage output quite a bit.

You have Riposte because it means you (almost) always have that reaction attack, even if it's just you facing off against an enemy 1v1. With Sentinel you have to rely on a friendly being next to your melee target and the DM attacking that friendly.

Riposte isn't a silver bullet, none of the parts of the build are. You can drop the Fighter levels sure, but you're giving up a ton to do so and frankly the higher Rogue levels are pretty terrible. I would never take a Rogue past 11 anyways, so maybe that colors my builds.

[Theodoxus]

2. I make the reverse point: with Sentinel, you already have invested into getting opportunity attacks more often. And it is a permanent benefit.
Compared to that, you invest 3 whole levels (2d6 Sneak Attack + other perks) just for, at most, 4 off-turn attacks per short rest. In the long run, the math just doesn't add up in favor of Battlemaster dip. You are favoring some more controlled nova (Riposte + Action Surge), but are losing out damage-wise every other turn of the (several ?) encounter(s).

Eh, more HPs (sure, average of 1, but still...) small per rest self-heal of 1d10+3, a combat style (dueling, or defense if you don't go the draconic sorcerer route), etc... Worth it? Maybe not... depends on your character concept. From a pure dpr build, sure, it's suboptimal - but not everyone builds for dpr - especially on a niche BB/swashbuckling build.

[RulesJD]

Eh, more HPs (sure, average of 1, but still...) small per rest self-heal of 1d10+3, a combat style (dueling, or defense if you don't go the draconic sorcerer route), etc... Worth it? Maybe not... depends on your character concept. From a pure dpr build, sure, it's suboptimal - but not everyone builds for dpr - especially on a niche BB/swashbuckling build.


Fighter levels also let you wield a shield (potentially a magical one later) for an automatic +2 AC, and I use Defensive Fighting Style for +1 (especially once I found Studded Leather +1). Start AC of 18/19 when you take Fighter level is pretty amazing. Run into some potential problems if your DM cares about Somatic components while wielding a shield, but again I've rarely found a DM that cares.

Also 3 Fighter levels are significantly better for DPR, by a loooooong shot. Riposte/Precision and Action Surge all increase DPR well beyond an extra 1-2d6. Especially when combined with BB for off-turn damage (movement + sneak attack). The only way for non-Fighter Rogues to get off-turn Sneaks is other party members (Dissonant Whispers/Commander's Strike) or the DM willing running away (rarely), or Sentinel if the DM decides not to smush you when the DM realizes that you have it.

Riposte really is worth it's weight in gold for DPR, same with Precision. Action Surge for guaranteed off-turn Sneak + BB extra damage.

Alternatively, you can take more Sorc levels (missing out on shield proficiency which is a big hit for survival) to get Quicken metamagic for off-turn sneaks.

[Finieous]

The only way for non-Fighter Rogues to get off-turn Sneaks is other party members (Dissonant Whispers/Commander's Strike) or the DM willing running away (rarely), or Sentinel if the DM decides not to smush you when the DM realizes that you have it.


Also haste. Either at 14th level for AT, and/or with a five-level multiclass. Not that I'm arguing with your point -- Riposte is good.

[Xetheral]

Using Action Surge or Quicken Metamagic for off-turn sneak attacks (via the Ready: Cast a Spell action) has the limitation that the Ready action doesn't permit both moving and attacking. So it only works if either you're still in melee range at the end of your turn (and thus don't get booming blade bonus damage) or if the enemy chooses to move adjacent to you, eating BOTH the bonus damage and the readied action. Depending on if your table interprets Ready actions as apparent to others, many NPCs may simply avoid you for the turn, forcing you to instead use a ranged spell (if you have one) that doesn't permit sneak attack.

Also, while using Swashbuckler makes qualifying for off-turn Sneak Attacks significantly easier, if there are multiple adjacent enemies and no adjacent allies you won't get Sneak Attack (in the SCAG version of Swashbuckler, anyway). This is also a problem when trying to use Riposte for off-turn Sneak Attacks. Sentinel usually doesn't have this problem because you qualify for Sneak Attack if the Sentinel Attack is triggered except in the rare case where it is triggered by a Ranged attack against a non-adjacent ally. But Sentinel attacks are in my experience often pretty rare. (Incidentally, a Rogue/Druid mount with Sentinel riden by a rider with Mounted Combat is the king of unlimited off-turn Sneak Attacks, albeit with a low attack bonus.)

[Spectre9000]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bugbear as a choice for this. Racial reach is quite a treat for this. Also gets stealth and a surprise attack.

[bid]

But I find the situations where either is a good use common enough to consider it a solid benefit. Add to that a better Initiative and a kinda Compelled Duel later, it really makes the archetype a great choice. ;)
Ah true, that swashbuckler 9 really makes BB shines.

And there's no permanent cost to TWF, you can still BB with a shortsword and switch to a rapier later in your career. Thank you for the insightful information.:smallsmile:

[Citan]

Also 3 Fighter levels are significantly better for DPR, by a loooooong shot. Riposte/Precision and Action Surge all increase DPR well beyond an extra 1-2d6. Especially when combined with BB for off-turn damage (movement + sneak attack). The only way for non-Fighter Rogues to get off-turn Sneaks is other party members (Dissonant Whispers/Commander's Strike) or the DM willing running away (rarely), or Sentinel if the DM decides not to smush you when the DM realizes that you have it.

I'm sorry but you are just wrong.
I did say you would miss "2d6 on every turn". Not on one turn.

Let's compare a Swashbuckler Rogue 10 / Battlemaster 3 to a plain Swashbuckler 13, both max Dex and using 1d6 weapon for math simplicity ;) (taking this character level because it is usually the maximum people play).
Let's say the first use Action Surge to Ready an attack off-turn that will use his reaction, then have a chance to Riposte on the four next rounds, and that Sneak Attack is appliable every time.

You get usual damage of your own turns: 5*(1d6+5+5d6), average 5*(26) = 130.
Add to that 5 offturn attacks, so another 130.
Total average 260

Now pure Swashbuckler.
5*(1d6+5+7d6) = 5*(33) = 180.

So, Battlemaster rocks?
Wait a bit.
First, I didn't consider that pure could get OA, which the multiclass couldn't get, because he used his reactions already on the five first turns. So there is one solid benefit of Battlemaster (Action Surge), and one more situational benefit (extra chance to trigger Sneak Attack off-turn).

Second, let's now tackle the second encounter, let's be nice and say it lasts only 5 rounds also.
Multiclass = 130 damage.
Pure = 180 damage.

Let's add the total for the 10 rounds.
260+130 = 390
180+180 = 360.

In a few more rounds, the pure Swash will reach his counterpart, then further the distance each more round.

That is why you cannot say that "Battlemaster is waay better". It's just wrong. Because there are far too many factors influencing.

What Battlemaster is good for, is pushing a great deal of bonus damage in one fight when you want to nova.
That's it.
And Battlemaster doesnt get "no creature has ever advantage on attacks rolls against you", which is still a great defensive feature.
And he doesn't get Swashbuckler's 17th level, which gives you a great chance to actually succeed when you just really had to succeed.

Obviously, at lower levels, the "pure" class would catch up to the multiclass much much faster. On the opposite end, once you are closing to character level 20, the added damage of Battlemaster would probably require something like 15 more rounds for the pure to catch up.

So...
- If you are a frontliner who will try to target lone enemies, then dipping Battlemaster is a good choice.
- If you know you can take short rests very regularly, then it is a great choice.
- If you are pretty sure you will reach character level 20 or close and care only about damage, it is a good choice (even if a DM does not follows guidelines closely, in most adventuring days you should still win damage-wise because in-between short rests it would amount to something around 5*50 damage).
- If you are a frontliner that has to take heat from several enemies, then it is not so much.
- If your DM tend to allow only one short-rest even in heated days, then it is a bad choice.
- If you care about having the best all-around damage most of your career, then it is a bad choice.
- If you are playing in a party that has other ways of enabling opportunity attacks, then it is a bad choice.
- Additionally, as a Rogue, you already have several uses of your reaction that will create opportunity cost (especially if you are a frontliner).
- Additionally, as a Rogue using Booming Blade, you would deal much better damage with Warcaster on opportunity attacks when you reach the higher levels.

When you take these limits into account, the added value of Battlemaster, in fact, really shows when you reach higher Rogue levels.
A unique one-level dip is always nice though if you want to maximize defense, that's for sure. ;)
So in that case, the best imo would be dipping 1 early, 2nd significantly later (like after Rogue 5), 3rd as late as possible (like after Rogue 10 at least).

[RulesJD]

*snip*
*snip*

I'm sorry but have you every actually PLAYED a Swashbuckler with BB?

I mean clearly not, because otherwise you'd realize that what I posted in a synergistic build, not just one component.

More importantly, have you ever actually played 5e? I can't help but notice you never once gave the Swashbuckler a short rest, which is more likely than not (even by DMG guidelines) going to happen every 2-3 fights. Short Rest = recharge ALL Fighter abilities, including Action Surge (extra damage because Action Surge lets you use Booming Blade extra 1/2d8), Second Wind (extra survivability especially when combined with Uncanny Dodge), and, obviously if you'd actually have played this build, Battlemaster Maneuvers.

Sure, over a long enough time period ALL classes lose out to a non-resource using class. But there's a reason spell casting classes aren't completely useless. Real game = short rests and long rests planned. That's why BM dip is so strong on Swashbucklers, because it's ALL short rest resources which means recharging every 2-3 fights. The ONLY long rest resource my build has is the Shield spell, which is still worth its weight in gold.

[Citan]

I'm sorry but have you every actually PLAYED a Swashbuckler with BB?

I mean clearly not, because otherwise you'd realize that what I posted in a synergistic build, not just one component.

More importantly, have you ever actually played 5e? I can't help but notice you never once gave the Swashbuckler a short rest, which is more likely than not (even by DMG guidelines) going to happen every 2-3 fights. Short Rest = recharge ALL Fighter abilities, including Action Surge (extra damage because Action Surge lets you use Booming Blade extra 1/2d8), Second Wind (extra survivability especially when combined with Uncanny Dodge), and, obviously if you'd actually have played this build, Battlemaster Maneuvers.

Sure, over a long enough time period ALL classes lose out to a non-resource using class. But there's a reason spell casting classes aren't completely useless. Real game = short rests and long rests planned. That's why BM dip is so strong on Swashbucklers, because it's ALL short rest resources which means recharging every 2-3 fights. The ONLY long rest resource my build has is the Shield spell, which is still worth its weight in gold.
Quite the contrary. I made precisely this point, and was especially nice with the Battlemaster by accounting only 2 encounters lasting only 5 rounds each.

In reality, there may be 3 encounters in a row, each may last as few as 3 or as long as 7 rounds.

And Booming Blade does precisely not synergize with Riposte, since Riposte imposes a plain weapon attack. It just synergize with Action Surge, as nearly all features and spells from any class.
Ah, sorry, it synergizes with Pushing Strike, but it means it eats at the Ripostes. Also, frankly, it's extremely situational.

Instead of just heating up immediately like a 5-y old, you should, for once, try and understand the point other people make without taking it as a personal agression. It's a bit tiring in the long run. ;)

I did not say Battlemaster was a BAD choice.
I said that it is not always a better choice, especially damage-wise.
It brings more nova damage, and really shine once any Sneak Attack deals more than 6d6.
But it delays many great Rogue features if you take it early. And only once you reach the highest levels it is good enough to trump a pure Rogue even if you chain 3 encounters before a short rest.

All of that, supposing...
1. You always use your manoeuver dices on Riposte only.
2. You don't take Warcaster which gives much oomph to "plain" opportunity attack damage
3. You never play with other allies that can entice creatures to move away.
4. You can take short rests when you want, in the conditions you want.
Awful lot of variables...

[Gignere]

I'm sorry but you are just wrong.
I did say you would miss "2d6 on every turn". Not on one turn.

Let's compare a Swashbuckler Rogue 10 / Battlemaster 3 to a plain Swashbuckler 13, both max Dex and using 1d6 weapon for math simplicity ;) (taking this character level because it is usually the maximum people play).
Let's say the first use Action Surge to Ready an attack off-turn that will use his reaction, then have a chance to Riposte on the four next rounds, and that Sneak Attack is appliable every time.

You get usual damage of your own turns: 5*(1d6+5+5d6), average 5*(26) = 130.
Add to that 5 offturn attacks, so another 130.
Total average 260

Now pure Swashbuckler.
5*(1d6+5+7d6) = 5*(33) = 180.

So, Battlemaster rocks?
Wait a bit.
First, I didn't consider that pure could get OA, which the multiclass couldn't get, because he used his reactions already on the five first turns. So there is one solid benefit of Battlemaster (Action Surge), and one more situational benefit (extra chance to trigger Sneak Attack off-turn).

Second, let's now tackle the second encounter, let's be nice and say it lasts only 5 rounds also.
Multiclass = 130 damage.
Pure = 180 damage.

Let's add the total for the 10 rounds.
260+130 = 390
180+180 = 360.

In a few more rounds, the pure Swash will reach his counterpart, then further the distance each more round.

That is why you cannot say that "Battlemaster is waay better". It's just wrong. Because there are far too many factors influencing.

What Battlemaster is good for, is pushing a great deal of bonus damage in one fight when you want to nova.
That's it.
And Battlemaster doesnt get "no creature has ever advantage on attacks rolls against you", which is still a great defensive feature.
And he doesn't get Swashbuckler's 17th level, which gives you a great chance to actually succeed when you just really had to succeed.

Obviously, at lower levels, the "pure" class would catch up to the multiclass much much faster. On the opposite end, once you are closing to character level 20, the added damage of Battlemaster would probably require something like 15 more rounds for the pure to catch up.

So...
- If you are a frontliner who will try to target lone enemies, then dipping Battlemaster is a good choice.
- If you know you can take short rests very regularly, then it is a great choice.
- If you are pretty sure you will reach character level 20 or close and care only about damage, it is a good choice (even if a DM does not follows guidelines closely, in most adventuring days you should still win damage-wise because in-between short rests it would amount to something around 5*50 damage).
- If you are a frontliner that has to take heat from several enemies, then it is not so much.
- If your DM tend to allow only one short-rest even in heated days, then it is a bad choice.
- If you care about having the best all-around damage most of your career, then it is a bad choice.
- If you are playing in a party that has other ways of enabling opportunity attacks, then it is a bad choice.
- Additionally, as a Rogue, you already have several uses of your reaction that will create opportunity cost (especially if you are a frontliner).
- Additionally, as a Rogue using Booming Blade, you would deal much better damage with Warcaster on opportunity attacks when you reach the higher levels.

When you take these limits into account, the added value of Battlemaster, in fact, really shows when you reach higher Rogue levels.
A unique one-level dip is always nice though if you want to maximize defense, that's for sure. ;)
So in that case, the best imo would be dipping 1 early, 2nd significantly later (like after Rogue 5), 3rd as late as possible (like after Rogue 10 at least).

I don't disagree with your sustained damage comparison, however once again based on my in game experience is that controlled burst is worth way more than sustained DPR in most encounters.

For example last game my group accidentally ran into 3 mindflayers this was a double deadly encounter that could have wiped the party (because most of the party dumped int) but we rolled great initiative and we just blew our wad right off the bat and instantly melted one of the mindflayers face before they got a turn. So a double deadly encounter with a group of dumped int characters basically changed the whole battle because we had on demand burst.

So just having increased on demand burst I would say the battle master dip is definitely worth it.

[bid]

More importantly, have you ever actually played 5e? I can't help but notice you never once gave the Swashbuckler a short rest
Do you really believe 10 rounds between short rests is "never"?

Because none of those delusions have ground in what was written.

[Citan]

I don't disagree with your sustained damage comparison, however once again based on my in game experience is that controlled burst is worth way more than sustained DPR in most encounters.

For example last game my group accidentally ran into 3 mindflayers this was a double deadly encounter that could have wiped the party (because most of the party dumped int) but we rolled great initiative and we just blew our wad right off the bat and instantly melted one of the mindflayers face before they got a turn. So a double deadly encounter with a group of dumped int characters basically changed the whole battle because we had on demand burst.

So just having increased on demand burst I would say the battle master dip is definitely worth it.
Well, I fully agree with this. Having more power for one encounter is always nice. But you have to be sure this is the big encounter, and that there won't be any big encounter before the next short rest. ;)

That is my point. The benefits of Battlemaster are heavily dependent on your campaign (hence your DM), your party (which may or may not have enough ways of providing you off-turn attacks to make Riposte much less interesting), and your own ability to ascertain accurately the right time to blow everything, on a class which already has plenty of things to do with his reaction.

So making theorycraft podiums is just baseless. One has to decide if it's worth it depending on all of this, and on the chance (or not) he may reach higher levels.
My suggestion is, when in doubt, stick with only one level as long as you don't really feel necessary to pursue.
Because the Fighter's 1st level benefits are arguably the same or better as keeping full Rogue progression, at least when you are looking for improved defense (you trade the capstone and blowing one ASI on Moderately Armored to gain a Fighting Style, an emergency heal and proficiencies. A very fair deal imo). But the same cannot be said about 2nd and 3rd level.

Rogue is one of the classes which provide the biggest amount of "generally useful" features in addition to increased Sneak Attack. Only when you reach 14th level or so do people (on this forum at least) start to look away towards other classes, but overall Rogue seems one of the few classes that are also often played "pure" or with a very minimal dip.

[Gignere]

Well, I fully agree with this. Having more power for one encounter is always nice. But you have to be sure this is the big encounter, and that there won't be any big encounter before the next short rest. ;)

That is my point. The benefits of Battlemaster are heavily dependent on your campaign (hence your DM), your party (which may or may not have enough ways of providing you off-turn attacks to make Riposte much less interesting), and your own ability to ascertain accurately the right time to blow everything, on a class which already has plenty of things to do with his reaction.

So making theorycraft podiums is just baseless. One has to decide if it's worth it depending on all of this, and on the chance (or not) he may reach higher levels.
My suggestion is, when in doubt, stick with only one level as long as you don't really feel necessary to pursue. Rogue is one of the classes which provide the biggest amount of "generally useful" features in addition to increased Sneak Attack.

It's generally not that hard to figure out which battle you need to blow your wad early. It is the one that you say holy f*ck we are going to die.

[Citan]

It's generally not that hard to figure out which battle you need to blow your wad early. It is the one that you say holy f*ck we are going to die.
Well, we don't have the same dm... For my group, the few times we manage to play, this is true of most every fight (although it's generally more because of a few really bad rolls at a really bad time than a deadly encounter design, but the result is the same... XD). Including the fights we know will be followed by the true deadly encounter. :smalltongue:

[Gignere]

Well, we don't have the same dm... For my group, the few times we manage to play, this is true of most every fight (although it's generally more because of a few really bad rolls at a really bad time than a deadly encounter design, but the result is the same... XD). Including the fights we know will be followed by the true deadly encounter. :smalltongue:

My philosophy it is better to blow your cool downs to save your arse, then holding on to your cooldowns as you hit dirt. If your DM makes the encounter such that you need long rests after every fight but doesn't give it that is just a bad DM.

[vostyg]

High Elf with Spell Sniper. Pick up Booming Blade from your race, duck in, deliver Booming Blade with a whip from 10ft away, duck out.
You can't deliver Booming Blade with a whip from 10ft away. The spell has a range of 5 ft, and the first sentence of the description states, "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails."

[Socratov]

You can't deliver Booming Blade with a whip from 10ft away. The spell has a range of 5 ft, and the first sentence of the description states, "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails."

except that spell sniper doubles your spell range as long as they are delivered through an attack (or target AC). A whip is a melee weapon (but polearms with the reach property would work too). so you are delivering a melee attack within the (doubled) range of the spell. A bit expensive in terms of investment, but totally legal.

See also these quotes form the SCAG and the PHB, bolding mine for the relevant parts.


BOOMING BLADE
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon) Duration: 1 round
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves be- fore then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 thunder damage to the target, and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.


Spell Sniper
Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell
You have learned techniques to enhance your attacks with certain kinds of spells, gaining the following benefits:


When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell’s range is doubled.
Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll.

Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.



Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it.


Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
[list=1]
Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.

If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack.

[...]

MeleeAttacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have melee attacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
When you are unarmed, you can fight in melee by making an unarmed strike, as shown in the weapon table in chapter 5.

[vostyg]

except that spell sniper doubles your spell range as long as they are delivered through an attack (or target AC). A whip is a melee weapon (but polearms with the reach property would work too). so you are delivering a melee attack within the (doubled) range of the spell. A bit expensive in terms of investment, but totally legal.

See also these quotes form the SCAG and the PHB, bolding mine for the relevant parts.

Yup. Missed the interaction with Spell Sniper. What's not so clear to me is what this really buys you. As a rogue, you already have a bonus action Disengage, and if you go Swashbuckler, you don't even need to use a bonus action to disengage. Spell sniper doesn't just seem worth it if you are trying to optimize Booming Blade with a rogue.

[MeeposFire]

There is always EK for 8 levels to get war magic if you really want that 2nd attack. You can also then have a shield with that. It works fairly nicely especially with swashbuckler since you can disengage almost freely and get 2 attacks.

[djreynolds]

I think you need to ask?

How many levels is this going to?

There are so many ways to get advantage to sneak attack, the easiest is a buddy. Who else is in this party will really help shape what you want.

Do you have burly type next to you, sentinel is great but you will still need war caster as BB/GFB are spells.

Same goes for the use of riposte and GFB/BB, you will probably need war caster. AFB can you use SD with a spell like GFB/BB

Does it have to be swashbuckler? How important is Panache to this build?

But if it has to be swashbuckler, I think warlock or sorcerer might provide some better benefits.

I could see either 17 SW/3 sorcerer or warlock.. can lose magic initiate

I could see 18AT/2 wizard... can lose magic initiate

You could go 17 any rogue/ and 3BM... might need magic initiate.. may not qualify, AFB, for war caster with magic initiate

I would go swashbuckler/paladin, 13 in strength is cheap and you can just snag a level of sorcerer for BB/GFB. It has everything you need, and OoV has some good spells. Smite will make up for lost sneak attack damage.

[Citan]

My philosophy it is better to blow your cool downs to save your arse, then holding on to your cooldowns as you hit dirt. If your DM makes the encounter such that you need long rests after every fight but doesn't give it that is just a bad DM.
You just didn't understand AT ALL. I'm not pointing out the DM. I'm pointing out bad luck that forces you to blow resources on what should have been a resource-inexpensive fight in the first place.
Or some gritty missions when you have to chain several encounters at once so you know that your resources will be useful for only a few moments in the whole time before the next short rest, whether you manage to keep them for the last encounter or you have to blow them early to lessen the damage.

And that can happen to any party, anytime.

If a DM was "giving" us a short-rest in the middle of an enemy place, just because "otherwise you won't survive the big one coming since you had to blow everything just before", THAT would be bad DMing. And in several occasions, we don't ourselves have the means of creating proper conditions for short-rest in a hostile place, especially at low levels. Even Tiny Hut or Private Sanctum, should someone in the party have either, are not sure-ways to get short or long-rest, unless you manage to find some hideable place.
Sure, once you get spells such as Magnificent Mansion, it's much easier. XD

But basically, saying "one should always know when it's the best moment to blow resources" is just... Arrogance. Because s*** is bound to happen. And blowing resources because "we should get a short rest after this one anyways" is disgustingly metagamish as hell too.

[Gignere]

But basically, saying "one should always know when it's the best moment to blow resources" is just... Arrogance. Because s*** is bound to happen. And blowing resources because "we should get a short rest after this one anyways" is disgustingly metagamish as hell too.

You are now misquoting me I didn't say "always" I said it is usually not difficult to figure out when you need to blow rest abilities. Even if it is due to bad rolls. Because you can always hope to be carried by good rolls the next fight but if you die/wipe this fight you can't rely on luck to carry you next fight.

[Crusher]

Yup. Missed the interaction with Spell Sniper. What's not so clear to me is what this really buys you. As a rogue, you already have a bonus action Disengage, and if you go Swashbuckler, you don't even need to use a bonus action to disengage. Spell sniper doesn't just seem worth it if you are trying to optimize Booming Blade with a rogue.

Well, it buys you an extra 5' of range which could be useful. And it allows you to save your bonus action if you pick a different type than Swashbuckler.

This is a bit off-topic, but Polearm Master + Warcaster + Spellsniper is really fun (albeit extremely expensive).

[Crusher]

You are now misquoting me I didn't say "always" I said it is usually not difficult to figure out when you need to blow rest abilities. Even if it is due to bad rolls. Because you can always hope to be carried by good rolls the next fight but if you die/wipe this fight you can't rely on luck to carry you next fight.

Oh, come on. It was pretty clear from the context that your comment was intended to refute the argument that one might not always know when to blow your wad. Its not precisely what you said, but its what you meant.

[Citan]

You are now misquoting me I didn't say "always" I said it is usually not difficult to figure out when you need to blow rest abilities. Even if it is due to bad rolls. Because you can always hope to be carried by good rolls the next fight but if you die/wipe this fight you can't rely on luck to carry you next fight.


Oh, come on. It was pretty clear from the context that your comment was intended to refute the argument that one might not always know when to blow your wad. Its not precisely what you said, but its what you meant.
Well, he's not totally wrong though, I did emphasized his point through a deforming glass, because I gave a broader meaning than was probably intended.
@Gignere Please accept my apologies for that.