ASI vs Magic Initiate

[Lombra]

My character is a tiefling shadow monk (level5) that will get one level of rogue at some point, and I'd like to give him some utility both in combat and out of combat. I really like the idea of getting some spells (namely: friends, mage hand and hex) from the warlock spell list, but I don't know if it's worth it compared to an ASI (DEX is at 16, WIS at 14 -the rolls weren't the best- and CHA at 12, so warlock dip isn't possible)

• +2 DEX would be greatly beneficial :
+1 to damage, AC, and attack roll, not to
mention a bumb to DEX saves which often
happen.

• +2 WIS would be very cool too:
+1 to AC, stunning strike saves and many
useful skills.

• Magic Initiate:
-Hex (WIS) + Friends would make me a
social monster for one minute;
-Mage Hand is useful in many ways
-Hex (STR) would be great to prone an
enemy and punch it with both advantage
and extra damage.

What do you guys suggest? The decision is very likely to be taken at level 9 (monk 8/ rogue 1) so will these considerations even matter at that point? I'm very inclined to get Magic Initiate, but I fear that it would hurt a character with not-so-great stats.
On top of that I'd also really like to get the hands on the Mobile feat, why is it so hard to get feats? T_T

[Dalebert]

I'm very biased in not believing Magic Initiate is a worthwhile feat. About the only exception I can imagine is for Find Familiar because that's just such a useful spell that serves you for so long with a single casting.

At the risk of being one of those people who takes your build in a completely different direction, I'm curious why you haven't considered the two level dip into warlock for a shadow monk. I thought it was practically a requirement. Massively expands your shadow/darkness-dependent abilities and it would simultaneously give you all these spells.

[Lombra]

I'm very biased in not believing Magic Initiate is a worthwhile feat. About the only exception I can imagine is for Find Familiar because that's just such a useful spell that serves you for so long with a single casting.

At the risk of being one of those people who takes your build in a completely different direction, I'm curious why you haven't considered the two level dip into warlock for a shadow monk. I thought it was practically a requirement. Massively expands your shadow/darkness-dependent abilities and it would simultaneously give you all these spells.

I would have considered it but that's my first 5e character and upon creation optimization was the last thing I had in mind... in fact, I put that 13 in CON...

[rooneg]

I'm very biased in not believing Magic Initiate is a worthwhile feat. About the only exception I can imagine is for Find Familiar because that's just such a useful spell that serves you for so long with a single casting.

Beyond that, if you're taking Magic Initiate just for Find Familiar (and you're not terribly in love with the cantrips you get, for example) you should also consider if you'd rather just get Ritual Caster. It scales better over the long run, and you can get a LOT of interesting stuff out of it.

[Dalebert]

I don't know about it being optimal. It's more versatile and arguably more fun but you lag in ASIs and higher level monk features. It could be argued to not be optimal. Maybe my understanding of "optimizing" is off. I always took it as choosing to be as good as possible in a small number of things over versatility.

[Lombra]

Find familiar would be a nice addition though it doesn't blend well with the character... choosing the warlock spells from magic initiate is an RP choice (because tieflings, devils, things like that). As for the warlock/monk multiclass, I assure you that even by itself the shadow monk can hold his own in fights, even without the devil's sight/darkness combo (which by the way would interfere with other PCs that don't have devil's sight).

[Citan]

My character is a tiefling shadow monk (level5) that will get one level of rogue at some point, and I'd like to give him some utility both in combat and out of combat. I really like the idea of getting some spells (namely: friends, mage hand and hex) from the warlock spell list, but I don't know if it's worth it compared to an ASI (DEX is at 16, WIS at 14 -the rolls weren't the best- and CHA at 12, so warlock dip isn't possible)

• +2 DEX would be greatly beneficial :
+1 to damage, AC, and attack roll, not to
mention a bumb to DEX saves which often
happen.

• +2 WIS would be very cool too:
+1 to AC, stunning strike saves and many
useful skills.

• Magic Initiate:
-Hex (WIS) + Friends would make me a
social monster for one minute;
-Mage Hand is useful in many ways
-Hex (STR) would be great to prone an
enemy and punch it with both advantage
and extra damage.

What do you guys suggest? The decision is very likely to be taken at level 9 (monk 8/ rogue 1) so will these considerations even matter at that point? I'm very inclined to get Magic Initiate, but I fear that it would hurt a character with not-so-great stats.
On top of that I'd also really like to get the hands on the Mobile feat, why is it so hard to get feats? T_T
Hi!
Honestly, it depends on quite a few things imo...
Do you feel you hit reliably enough?
Do you usually use your ki on Stunning Strike or on Shadow abilities?
Are you the one the party relies onto for WIS skills?
Do you have anyone in your party that can help you hit (Bless, shove/prone, Combat Inspiration)?

My gut says:

1. If you feel you are contributing and surviving fine as is, go for Magic Initiate. You gain a good use for your concentration, and you can have fun with your tricks.

2a. If you are in doubt about general efficiency, go for +WIS. Because there is a fat chance your party will rely more on Stunning Strike as you encounter more dangerous creatures, and while there are always many ways for your friends to help you hit a creature, only you can help with your Stunning Strike DC. ;)

2b. If however your own feeling is the opposite, aka your party never relied on your Stunning Strike and probably won't in the future (notably because you tend to blow everything on evasion features or shadow features), then DEX is to be favored.

Have fun!

[eastmabl]

At the risk of being one of those people who takes your build in a completely different direction, I'm curious why you haven't considered the two level dip into warlock for a shadow monk. I thought it was practically a requirement. Massively expands your shadow/darkness-dependent abilities and it would simultaneously give you all these spells.

Per the OP, CHA at 12, so warlock dip isn't possible.

[Lombra]

Hi!
Honestly, it depends on quite a few things imo...
Do you feel you hit reliably enough?
Do you usually use your ki on Stunning Strike or on Shadow abilities?
Are you the one the party relies onto for WIS skills?
Do you have anyone in your party that can help you hit (Bless, shove/prone, Combat Inspiration)?

My gut says:

1. If you feel you are contributing and surviving fine as is, go for Magic Initiate. You gain a good use for your concentration, and you can have fun with your tricks.

2a. If you are in doubt about general efficiency, go for +WIS. Because there is a fat chance your party will rely more on Stunning Strike as you encounter more dangerous creatures, and while there are always many ways for your friends to help you hit a creature, only you can help with your Stunning Strike DC. ;)

2b. If however your own feeling is the opposite, aka your party never relied on your Stunning Strike and probably won't in the future (notably because you tend to blow everything on evasion features or shadow features), then DEX is to be favored.

Have fun!

Thanks for the insight :)

I haven't yet found a good situation where to make stunning strike shine, and my character definately isn't playing the part of the wise one. I feel like when I want to hit most of the attacks will reach the opponent, mostly thanks to other party members, althaugh for the amount of HP that the character have I feel like he gets hit too many times, and often end up falling unconscoius at least once a day.

I think I'll take magic initiate, I just feel that I would regret it otherwise.

[Spectre9000]

Thanks for the insight :)

I haven't yet found a good situation where to make stunning strike shine, and my character definately isn't playing the part of the wise one. I feel like when I want to hit most of the attacks will reach the opponent, mostly thanks to other party members, althaugh for the amount of HP that the character have I feel like he gets hit too many times, and often end up falling unconscoius at least once a day.

I think I'll take magic initiate, I just feel that I would regret it otherwise.

You have the Dex to multiclass into fighter. Go Fighter 4-8 for more ASI, and go Eldritch Knight. You pick up wizard spells, some of which are warlock spells. You get a familiar as well. Then you can continue Monk till at least 8, then maybe go Rogue, though that's a high level.

You alternatively could also go Arcane Trickster since you wanted some rogue anyway, but you'd get less ASI, which you seem to need.

[Citan]

Thanks for the insight :)

I haven't yet found a good situation where to make stunning strike shine, and my character definately isn't playing the part of the wise one. I feel like when I want to hit most of the attacks will reach the opponent, mostly thanks to other party members, althaugh for the amount of HP that the character have I feel like he gets hit too many times, and often end up falling unconscoius at least once a day.

I think I'll take magic initiate, I just feel that I would regret it otherwise.


You have the Dex to multiclass into fighter. Go Fighter 4-8 for more ASI, and go Eldritch Knight. You pick up wizard spells, some of which are warlock spells. You get a familiar as well. Then you can continue Monk till at least 8, then maybe go Rogue, though that's a high level.

You alternatively could also go Arcane Trickster since you wanted some rogue anyway, but you'd get less ASI, which you seem to need.
So you are actually suggesting him to start dipping into a third-caster class to 1) get "more" ASI 2) get "more" spells?
...
M'kayyyyy...

Seriously, no, this is a really bad idea.
First, the only Fighting Style that may work (barring UA) with Monk is Duelist: and +2*2 per round is nice, but nothing to boast either. Others won't work because requiring two-handed weapon, shield or armor.
Action Surge is always good, but that is once per short rest. And its biggest benefit is for casters (2 spells chained) or Fighters (2*4attacks). For a Shadow Monk, it is indeed interesting in that you can set up your darkness and hop on it immediately. But, again, once per short rest.
Then Eldricht Knight... Which you admit yourself give exactly the same options for a Monk (dump INT so save/attack spells useless both ways) as an Arcane Trickster.
Arcane Trickster which gives: Expertise (welcome Shadow Monk), Cunning Action (that many Ki spared every short rest) in addition to the spellcasting, and later maybe the greatest reaction defensive ability, which is the only one a Monk doesn't have. ;)

If OP really want some help to survive, take a dip in Trickster Cleric. Immediate benefit with Bless or Shield of Faith, along with shield wielding. Mid-term benefit with Mirror Image in case you dip deeper.
You immediately gain +2 AC, possibly +4 for a single dip, that also counts as a full level for casting, in case you go for Arcane Trickster later.
For a single-level dip, best is probably Light (WIS mod defense against close-range attacks), Tempest (WIS mod reaction damage on a hit), Nature (WIS weapon with Shillelagh), Death (perma-twin Chill Touch can be in fact pretty potent at higher level).
And you are still only one level behind your next ASI compared to going straight at it.

[MeeposFire]

A monk could take mariner and get a climb and swim speed with his +1 AC.

I would not take fighter just to get it but it is an option.

I like magic initiate but not as much on monks due to not having a whole lot to work with them outside of fun and utility (which are fine things but for me unless I start with crazy high stats a lot of fun with monk for me involves their ability scores).

Hex works well with a monk but sadly it will only be usable 1/day which personally I don't find enough to be worth it unless your DM does few encounters in a day (I have known ones that do this).

[Addaran]

Normaly i'd say to go for Magic Initiate cause it's so fun!
But you only have 15 AC with those stats, and you're already lvl 5. My monk had 15 AC at lvl 1 and even then it felt low. I wouldn't want to wait until like lvl 13 (if you pick MI at 9) to get 16 AC. Mostly, monks are MAD and wants really good stats. You sacrificed some of those stats for cool racial spell (which is a nice choice) but i wouldn't sacrifice stats a second time just yet.

[djreynolds]

Why not grab 2 levels of ranger and snag hunter's mark, heck grab horde breaker also, or 1 level of war cleric get sacred flame and divine favor

[Lombra]

I'll focus on flavour and get MI. I hope to get some bracers of defense before the AC will become a problem for the party.