Let's talk about backstorys for PCs [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Sir cryosin

2016-12-23, 04:43 PM

ThisIsZen

2016-12-23, 04:54 PM

What I've found I prefer to do is I ask my players, when designing characters, to provide me with two things: A list of (at least) three allegiances that they feel define their character, and a short-term and long-term goal for their character. They can certainly write a backstory and provide it to me and I'll look into it and incorporate it, but at a minimum I want them to think about what drives their character and what they want to achieve.

Allegiances can be to anything, mind you. They can be to a cause, a person or an organization, but they can also be to an ideal, or something else abstract. In the case of greedy characters, wealth and gold can be an allegiance. It's just the three (or more) things which guide their actions. The short-term and long-term goal are a bit less abstract.

I've only run two games so far so I haven't tested this system as much as I could, but my current game has left me feeling like it's working pretty well.

Gryndle

2016-12-23, 05:07 PM

Whether I am DMing or just playing I prefer the group to have put at least some thought into who their characters are. I dislike overly convoluted backstories just as much as no backstory at all.

What I really like to know about the characters when I am DMing are just these few things: where do they come from? were they rich or poor? what lines do they think they will not cross? and why in the Nine Hells are they taking up the insane profession of adventuring, what motive puts them on that career path?

That information usually gives me enough to work with as a DM without information overload; as a player it also makes the other characters more relatable.

Kurt Kurageous

2016-12-23, 06:53 PM

I need their character's motivations almost as much as I need to know why the players want to play D&D.

I need this so that I can address each character's motivations when presenting a direction or hook. If I do this right, the player should be able to tell me WHY their character wants to go hunt for the McGuffin, slay the princess, save the dragon, etc.

Then HOW that happens in play will depend on what my players like to do in D&D.

LaserFace

2016-12-23, 07:00 PM

SLIMEPRIEST

2016-12-23, 07:20 PM

As DM I do take character backstories and when it's feasible do try to weave the info into plot hooks and adventures.

But
Players need to realize that it's what your character does once the game begins that really matters. A ten page backstory doesn't mean squat if you never express anything about it in character. The other players will never even be aware of your characters history unless you bring it up. They won't care unless it affects the way your character behaves while you are in game.

As a player my characters have a one sentence backstory: "I escaped prison on the feywild and now I'm running amuck here."
And so on and so forth. No one's complained that my characters aren't well thought out or dynamic.

It's how you play the character in game that really matters.

Cybren

2016-12-23, 07:28 PM

Background info is usually useful. "I have a rival" or "I have a secret" can be fun.

But, if I'm running a game, I want the experience to be one that everyone at the table equally enjoys. What happened in somebody's past should be less important than whatever challenges the party faces as a group.

There's a lot of grey area but mainly I just don't want someone to get the idea they can be the Main Character if they just out-write everyone else.

The game only exists at the table. What you bring to it is great in as far as it can inform that, but too much information about your character before you start playing and you're just restricting yourself.

LaserFace

2016-12-23, 07:35 PM

Astofel

2016-12-23, 08:11 PM

As a DM, I do like to ask my players for at least some kind of backstory, partly so I can know how they think and what motivates them, and partly so I can incorporate it into my campaign somehow, ideally giving each character their own 'arc'. That said, I'm a novice DM so we'll see how well it goes.

As a player, I've always liked to write things, so writing up backstories for my characters came naturally. When I do so, though, I try to make things generic so they can fit into many campaigns. I make sure that my backstory gives some kind of motivation for adventuring, and often I'll give them some kind of antagonist or problem from their backstory they want to resolve, in case the DM feels like incorporating it. For example, my half-orc former cleric of Umberlee who's been redeemed wants to find his old pirate captain and try to redeem him as well, but that's not what defines his character and if the DM doesn't include it it's no big deal.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-23, 08:34 PM

The game only exists at the table. What you bring to it is great in as far as it can inform that, but too much information about your character before you start playing and you're just restricting yourself.

I disagree. The game mostly exists outside of the table. Every player is having a unique experience in their head while playing. They all anticipated different things leading up to the session. They all will recollect things slightly differently.

For me, DnD campaigns mostly exist in the shower and on the train.

None of the other players in my current game get what Khurgorbaeyag means to Garagek (my PC). They don't see how I go into every session planning to maximize the glory I earn for myself as a hunter of men, and my tribal Confederacy as a force for the goblinoid cause. They don't understand what the events of past sessions really mean to me. What we all get is the encounters described, and the roleplay engaged in.

That being said, this all works because all of Garagek that exists for the other players is what I bring to the table. And it was fun for me because I only had to come up with what I wanted to come up with. My last PC was just made by rolling on the personality tables. I think one of the other PCs has a very developed secret backstory and personality that they're intentionally keeping secret, while another is pretty much just the player, but with magical powers. If we all wrote up five paragraph biographies and shared them, that'd be lame for us.

stanprollyright

2016-12-23, 09:02 PM

Cybren

2016-12-23, 09:33 PM

I disagree. The game mostly exists outside of the table. Every player is having a unique experience in their head while playing. They all anticipated different things leading up to the session. They all will recollect things slightly differently.

For me, DnD campaigns mostly exist in the shower and on the train.

Well, to that I say, unless the other players are psychic, or happen to all enjoy group showers, then no. The game exists at the table.

None of the other players in my current game get what Khurgorbaeyag means to Garagek (my PC). They don't see how I go into every session planning to maximize the glory I earn for myself as a hunter of men, and my tribal Confederacy as a force for the goblinoid cause. They don't understand what the events of past sessions really mean to me. What we all get is the encounters described, and the roleplay engaged in.

That being said, this all works because all of Garagek that exists for the other players is what I bring to the table. And it was fun for me because I only had to come up with what I wanted to come up with. My last PC was just made by rolling on the personality tables. I think one of the other PCs has a very developed secret backstory and personality that they're intentionally keeping secret, while another is pretty much just the player, but with magical powers. If we all wrote up five paragraph biographies and shared them, that'd be lame for us.

Garagek doesn't exist. The only true things about Garagek are the things that you choose to tell or show the other players in the course of play. Play might involve conversations about the game, and it might involve sharing some pieces of character paraphernalia over email, like letters, sketches, or whatever. But ultimately the game is the game (incidentally you claim to disagree but the section i've bolded is just a restatement of my argument)

gfishfunk

2016-12-23, 09:49 PM

As aDM, I provide my players with several different factions. If they put together a back story, I incorporate it. Inevitably, every character had nothing to do with any faction. And instead they craft something about how they are secret royalty of a different group all together, or a part of some weird assassin cult but left it, and I'm all like "whoa, I gave you an artisan guild faction, a group of Street thieves, and a religious order."

Normally, I create a vague outline in my head "this type of story, these kind of encounters, this type of villain," and then gather back stories and use whatever my players came up with to fit those things. The artisan guild is now a group of undead, the group of Street thieves are now a paladin order, and the religious order is a dragonborn faction.

It works.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-23, 11:47 PM

Well, to that I say, unless the other players are psychic, or happen to all enjoy group showers, then no. The game exists at the table.

The game isn't just the things that are shared. I mean, do you not think that chargen or DM prep are part of the game? If so, I think this is probably just a semantic issue, and there's some other term like "para-game" that I should be using to make my meaning clearer to you.

Garagek doesn't exist. The only true things about Garagek are the things that you choose to tell or show the other players in the course of play. Play might involve conversations about the game, and it might involve sharing some pieces of character paraphernalia over email, like letters, sketches, or whatever. But ultimately the game is the game (incidentally you claim to disagree but the section i've bolded is just a restatement of my argument)

Garagek exists in my imagination, and the imagination of those I share him with. The version in my head has greater depth than the version in the other player's heads. I play DnD for three reasons:

1) I make fun for myself playing it
2) I enjoy making fun for other players (+ the DM)
3) Other players (+ the DM) make it fun for me

Coming up with backstory and internal roleplay is a part 1) activity that may or may not contribute to part 2).

JakOfAllTirades

2016-12-24, 12:29 AM

Anderlith

2016-12-24, 12:52 AM

I dont like elaborate backstories because Im big into worldbuilding & it just messes things up. All i want to know is where did you grow up, how did you learn your skills, how did you get to the first session of play, & who your parents are.

& be open to shifting things to fit into the world. I.e. if i ask for everyone to start as villagers in a small coastal village & someone makes an edgelord tiefling wizard who has a super edgelord past & doesnt come from the village but basically showed up out of the blue during the events of the first session (currently happening in my game & causing me an ulcer of hate) i should have put my foot down but they are new & im just going to ignore all of it.

Potato_Priest

2016-12-24, 02:06 AM

Potato_Priest

2016-12-24, 02:14 AM

Astofel

2016-12-24, 02:15 AM

DKing9114

2016-12-24, 04:06 AM

I recently made a paladin who made up his own god. While it sort of edged pretty close to setting breaking, it was also an interesting philosophical issue. I think backstories are good, but they should be crafted after speaking with your DM about the setting, and not before.

I think character creation and world-building go hand in hand-it should be a back and forth process between each player and the GM where the GM tweaks their campaign to fit new characters, while the player looks for ways to work their concepts into the GM's world. I invented the god my paladin follows, and wrote up the basic tenets of the faith, along with coming up with the country he comes from. Another player came up with a full culture for his barbarian, causing the GM to fit the Kazakh Plains into his map to explain why this barbarian is adventuring in civilization. For our part, we don't try to abuse this ability to hijack the campaign or start rewriting the current area.

I find that a fairly detailed backstory makes roleplaying the character better. Personality traits and character motivations don't simply appear out of nowhere; they come about as a result of a character's past. It also cuts down on character concepts that are essentially just a bunch of mechanics that player wants to combine without a reliable narrative for the concept-like telling your GM that you're a Lawful Evil Devotion Paladin 3/Fiendlock 2, and expecting the GM to just accept that your character idea breaks the rules of the world he's envisioned.

Tanarii

2016-12-24, 07:58 AM

So I don't ever come up with a backstorys.Thats good. Backstory does almost nothing for Roleplaying a character. It's just history, not motivations.

In fact, backstory is often a negative thing ... many players mistakenly think they've successfully developed a well fleshed out character because they've provided back story. When all they've done is provided a flat no personality character with a history.

And absolutely under no circumstances should a backstory be created without the DM's approval for the elements contained in it. It's her campaign. Players don't just get to insert stuff into it without her approval. (Edit2: unless she's decided to run that kind of campaign of course. Or it's a group of friends deciding that's the kind of campaign they wanted and effective elected someone to lead it. There's always exceptions.)

I don't even put anything down for flaws, bonds, ect..... I never have ever have them come up in any games I'm in.Now you're saying you don't make character motivations for your characters. That's bad. Motivations are critical for in-character decision making (aka Roleplaying). Or are you just saying you don't make write down your PC motivations, or use the formal 5e system for them?

Edit: motivations (and 5e personality traits, especially Bond) often contain some element of history, and history (and backstory) often contains some motivation in it. But the primary purpose is what is key. Motivation is what matters for Roleplaying. History is nice, and sometimes useful for DM to hang a plot hook off of. But it's not important for making in-character decisions, which is what Roleplaying is.

Cybren

2016-12-24, 08:04 AM

I sort of disagree that the player shouldn't think up elements without the pre-consent of the DM. Ideally, in the games I like to play, there's an element of shared world building in that I like when players take part in panting the picture of where their characters are from. But this is why I like shared character creation sessions, so everyone can hash out the kind of things they want to see and do in the game. That said, you should be respectful of the elements of the setting that are already established, so deciding your new forgotten realms character is from the world of Terminator post Judgement Day and arrived via time travel accident is probably inappropriate (unless you're playing RIFTS forgotten realms somehow)

Tanarii

2016-12-24, 08:13 AM

I sort of disagree that the player shouldn't think up elements without the pre-consent of the DM.
There is a difference between thinking up new elements and asking for DM approval, and thinking up new elements and expecting approval.

Not full on assuming, as an inalienable right. Obviously that's bad. But even expecting low key, as if default should be approval unless there's a big reason not to have it. The default should be whatever the DM feels fits in her campaign.

This may be less the case in a group of friends of course. But if the DM is putting together the campaign and soliciting players, it's their campaign. A player can choose or not choose to sit at the table, and obviously being a heavy handed DM will chase players away. But if a player comes in with expectations they can build elements into the campaign as they see fit, IMX they will be in for a rude shock. Some DMs are into collaborative campaign building, but most are into the campaign reacting to the in-game actions of PCs.

Sir cryosin

2016-12-24, 09:19 AM

Thats good. Backstory does almost nothing for Roleplaying a character. It's just history, not motivations.

In fact, backstory is often a negative thing ... many players mistakenly think they've successfully developed a well fleshed out character because they've provided back story. When all they've done is provided a flat no personality character with a history.

And absolutely under no circumstances should a backstory be created without the DM's approval for the elements contained in it. It's her campaign. Players don't just get to insert stuff into it without her approval. (Edit2: unless she's decided to run that kind of campaign of course. Or it's a group of friends deciding that's the kind of campaign they wanted and effective elected someone to lead it. There's always exceptions.)

Now you're saying you don't make character motivations for your characters. That's bad. Motivations are critical for in-character decision making (aka Roleplaying). Or are you just saying you don't make write down your PC motivations, or use the formal 5e system for them?

Edit: motivations (and 5e personality traits, especially Bond) often contain some element of history, and history (and backstory) often contains some motivation in it. But the primary purpose is what is key. Motivation is what matters for Roleplaying. History is nice, and sometimes useful for DM to hang a plot hook off of. But it's not important for making in-character decisions, which is what Roleplaying is.

Ok I didn't met it as my characters don't have movation. It I don't put anything down on the paper or pick anything from my background because I have a concept of who I want to play or I don't and I come up with the character as I start playing. I also think that if a character has a motivation like my family was killed by X so I'm going to kill X. Why are you killing a dragon cult instead of look for X and finding X weekends or training to get stronger ect... Ok so the DM puts your back story in and you kill X or how ever you dealt with. Now you have no motivation to keep aventurine. The way I see it the ventures would be people who are Thrill Seekers. Maybe some kind of scientist or archaeologist people who are searching for ancient knowledge. Treasure Hunters people who are looking to get rich. People running from something. Someone looking to make a name for themselves. I just fine a lot of characters motivation doesn't hold up it maybe a reason to get you started but why keep adventuring. That the movation PC need and that don't come tell after the game start. When I'm doing a character the first thing I do is what class I want to play. Then how do I want to play that class. Then what race. Then how did he learn those skills and abilities. why do I want to be a Adventure. Then most of the time the character traits come out as we play.

Hrugner

2016-12-24, 09:48 AM

I've found it's a pretty good deal to make a backstory as long as you keep it simple and have key points that can be story relevant without story breaking. A three page story involving important in game figures is going to be both annoying and useless where as, "This poor sod doesn't understand money and is over confident regarding his knowledge of the world. He's never traveled outside his home town but likes to listen to other travelers' stories which he believes completely." gives you enough for the DM to use, and gives you a few things to point to about your character to justify various decisions or tip you advantage or disadvantage in some situations.

Dr. Cliché

2016-12-24, 10:15 AM

mephnick

2016-12-24, 12:01 PM

I usually DM and love worldbuilding, but when I play I despise building a backstory. I much prefer to come in as a blank state and build my character's past by the decisions I make in game. If we come into contact with slavers and I decide I hate slavers, hating slavery becomes part of my character's past. I don't decide a month before actually using my character and testing him out to decide I hate slavery, that feels to restrictive.

I suggest everyone come in as a blank slate and write their past as they grow with the character. Try it, it's a lot more interesting for everyone at the table.

Tanarii

2016-12-24, 12:15 PM

Ok I didn't met it as my characters don't have movation. It I don't put anything down on the paper or pick anything from my background because I have a concept of who I want to play or I don't and I come up with the character as I start playing.a concept of who you want to play sounds good. Not having one is a good way to end up playing an avatar of yourself, at least to start with. That's how you end up with Bob the Fighter #2.

Otoh if you want to play a game starting with just an avatar of yourself, and slowly flesh out personality details transforming BtF#2 slowly into Robert the Bruce, Warrior extraordinaire, who has this weird laugh when suddenly surprised by ambushes / DM shenanigans, who will defend Dopplegangers to the death because he gave his word, who will never trust another Vampire again because of what happened to Jander the Gold Elf, who hates tyranny and accidentally got swept up liberating all Scots (all in-game) ... Yeah, that totally works. :smallbiggrin:

While I think starting personality traits stops characters from being one dimensional to being with, back story history might provide additional motivations and plot hooks, I totally agree in-game, actually played out, character development and events are King!

Gryndle

2016-12-24, 12:22 PM

I like working with the players (or the DM if i'm not running the game) when characters are being created. It helps give an idea of where the character fits into the world, and what effect the world has had on the character up to the start of play.

My group has a long running homebrew setting, in which all but our most recent campaign takes place. This setting has developed over decades and is very fleshed out.
What tics me off is when someone decides to make a backstory that just turns established lore inside out. to me that seems inconsiderate and screams of "look at me! ain't I a special flower!"

To clarify, I don't mind if someone wants to introduce something new in a way that fits. Its when they want to erase or alter what has already been established just because they want their character to be the mary-sue dwarven princess ninja wizard of the Elven Nation. (just an exaggeration, though I actually see some comedic value in that premise).

As a DM I want my players to put some effort into their characters, hopefully with a little bit of basic starting info, but more in their personalities and involvement with the game world. Just not so much that they think they have become the center of everyone's universe.

Cybren

2016-12-24, 12:28 PM

But if the DM is putting together the campaign and soliciting players, it's their campaign.

Well there's your problem. This is almost always a bad idea

Draco4472

2016-12-24, 12:31 PM

I've never been able to make a character without a lengthy backstory behind them. Hell, even my first character had some motivations for why they did what they did, why they are where they are now, and why they act as they do.

I've made a noble fighter wandering the world to help others, a rogue acting greedy to hide his emotional side, a character raised in the underdark so as not to understand the concept of society, an alcoholic vampire hunter,

It just doesn't feel right to me to create a boring character without any motivations or history behind them, nor any personal relation to a campaign. The vampire hunter I made for Curse of Strahd, and only because it was a dark and gothic campaign.

IShouldntBehere

2016-12-24, 12:54 PM

As both a player and a GM I find a short backstory , say about a paragraph long to be most useful. As a GM it lets me introduce elements relevant to a character without having to have a on-the-spot discussion about what is in fact relevant. As a player they offer some guidance and direction without feeling like a straight jacket. Long back stories just seem to wind up either being ignored or contradicted. To me the best backstory/concept is something that looks like this:

"Billy the Birdman was born 28 years ago on the southern coasts of Prawnbayou. He has fondness for sweets and hates the water. As a hatchling he had a bitter rivalry with an older boy from a much wealthier family. Billy dislikes opulence and arrogance, but still aspires to wealth. His family is large and his father's many brothers have settled far across the land and Billy feels a great loyalty even to the uncles he has never met. "

It's compact, tells you about the character and where they come from. It gives you a few basic personality traits and some information on where they come from. The GM could have billy's rivals or uncles show up, or have something happen to his parents. At the same time the details on any of those people and what they do are totally open. If the GM needs billy's uncle to be a dastardly merchant he can be, if his uncle winds up being a legendary blacksmith that doesn't contradict anything either.

It provides organic hooks on both ends: Things to bring the PC into the game world, and things to bring the game world into the PC.

What I find isn't as useful the super duper long backstories. This is because they're saying too much about things that haven't actually happened in the game. It amounts to 5 pages of speculative fan fiction for a character that doesn't even really exist yet.

LaserFace

2016-12-24, 12:59 PM

I think there's a difference between motivation and "backstory", in the sense that myself and I think a few others are using "backstory".

If a player gave me a character sheet that said this:
Bart, level 1 Fighter

-From a fishing village
-Likes to help and protect people, like his grandfather did in service of the King
-Home village was raided by lizardmen
-Helped in defending the village, impressed the right people, later got properly trained and made a career out of fighting monsters
-Hears the call to action when Campaign Town 1 is under threat from Opening Plot Hook and Joins The Party

I'd call it perfect. The character is simple, there are plenty of ways to expand upon it, and most importantly it's not ten pages of fanfiction. As a DM I'm more interested in ways a background can give to greater in-game experience. Over my time playing the game, I've found that when making a character, I've only written less backstory as time goes on, because in my experience it's just better to keep it simple, with just enough to get it right.

If all the details for a character are figured-out, set in stone, I can't later say as DM "oh yeah here's an old childhood friend" or whatever, because the player already decided their guy had no friends. Too much backstory and the material can't grow. Even if it's sort of a retro-active growth, it's still incredibly useful and satisfying when you can tie things together in ways that weren't predetermined from before the first session gets underway. Maybe that doesn't work for everyone but I feel like D&D has only gotten way more fun with this approach.

LaserFace

2016-12-24, 01:01 PM

Tanarii

2016-12-24, 01:30 PM

Well there's your problem. This is almost always a bad idea
It's how the majority of campaigns in the large and varied public TRPG market/environment in the (huge) city I live in start.

So yah, not really a problem at all.

^--edit: looking back at my statement, I think there's an "appeal to ..." logical fallacy going on there. :smallyuk:

Bohandas

2016-12-24, 02:39 PM

I've actually occasionally created backstories for characters in single player D&D computer games I've played

Telok

2016-12-24, 11:36 PM

Potato_Priest

2016-12-24, 11:57 PM

I'd like it if anyone else in my group did anything backstory-ish. They all do blank slate, murder hobo avatars. Two of them sometimes develop character during play, if they don't die and reroll a new character.
I feel this way most of the time, but in all reality I have the same difficulties with character depth. I am having a hard time bringing myself away from a playful chaotic good, while one of my best friends is simultaneously trying to pull himself away from murderhoboism.

CaptainSarathai

2016-12-25, 12:41 AM

I like the fact that most Background options have a few key points of the character's backstory built into them. For my purposes, it's actually just about the right amount of backstory info: not the huge infodump that some players would write, nor the blank page I'd get from those who refuse to write anything at all.

As a player my characters have a one sentence backstory: "I escaped prison on the feywild and now I'm running amuck here."
And so on and so forth. No one's complained that my characters aren't well thought out or dynamic.

It's how you play the character in game that really matters.

One sentence, or one of the Bonds/Flaws/Inspirations is usually enough for a character.
The DM should try to work this into the story. That's why I like the backgrounds stuff that they've added, because it gives several little blurbs, prewritten, that players can choose to modify or just use at face value. The DM picks one or two that fits best in the story, and runs it.

I've made a noble fighter wandering the world to help others, a rogue acting greedy to hide his emotional side, a character raised in the underdark so as not to understand the concept of society, an alcoholic vampire hunter,
This is actually a really good example of my point. You claimed that you wrote extensive backstories, but then you summarized them all in perfectly adequate 1-sentence backgrounds that I could use as a DM.

I think backstories are good, but they should be crafted after speaking with your DM about the setting, and not before.

I think character creation and world-building go hand in hand-it should be a back and forth process between each player and the GM where the GM tweaks their campaign to fit new characters, while the player looks for ways to work their concepts into the GM's world.

This is something that really depends on group. I usually give my players a "Session Zero" where they write their characters together. That alone usually gets them thinking in terms of how they know each other and by extension, what they've been doing. I just sit back and take notes. I give them the background and setting, and they slot themselves into that.

However, if players are the creative type, you can actually have them help write up characters and help you design the campaign world. This works well if you have a bunch of DMs playing together, who understand compromise. I have only seen this work once, and it was an online campaign. It was a lot of fun, but you're not guaranteed to even see the parts of the world you helped to design, if the campaign doesn't necessarily steer that way.

a concept of who you want to play sounds good. Not having one is a good way to end up playing an avatar of yourself, at least to start with. That's how you end up with Bob the Fighter #2.

This I definitely agree with. This isn't a background - it's more like RP guidelines. A lot of people have problems with this, because it's more like method-acting than playing a game. You are no longer just "Player." You are Van D. Graaf, Journeyman Engineer - you've been disgraced and kicked out of the guild because of the radical mixture of science and wizardry behind your new electro-generator. To prove your point, you have created a suit of armor powered by your invention, to prove its durability and usefulness as a weapon of war in a bid to find a wealthy backer and regain your post with the guild.
That's not you anymore. That's not some intern at an accounting firm. You can't respond to threats the way you, as a person, would respond, or wish you would respond - you respond like the glory-hungry Van Graaf. You have to enter another mindset, and having a well thought-out character concept is not the same as a background. That concept will help you think more like your character.

djreynolds

2016-12-25, 03:10 AM

Our DM is running a campaign for us and its cool.

We are higher level "magic item obtainers" and we lost our memories recently.

So we have no idea of our alignment or whatever. And its cool to see how people play as themselves...
my character for instance... doesn't want his memory back... I think I was a bad person.

Some of the players are very chaotic, very untrustworthy, some are violent, some are honorable.

Tanarii

2016-12-25, 11:38 AM

This I definitely agree with. This isn't a background - it's more like RP guidelines. A lot of people have problems with this, because it's more like method-acting than playing a game. You are no longer just "Player." You are Van D. Graaf, Journeyman Engineer - you've been disgraced and kicked out of the guild because of the radical mixture of science and wizardry behind your new electro-generator. To prove your point, you have created a suit of armor powered by your invention, to prove its durability and usefulness as a weapon of war in a bid to find a wealthy backer and regain your post with the guild.
That's not you anymore. That's not some intern at an accounting firm. You can't respond to threats the way you, as a person, would respond, or wish you would respond - you respond like the glory-hungry Van Graaf. You have to enter another mindset, and having a well thought-out character concept is not the same as a background. That concept will help you think more like your character.It's still Roleplaying even if you just play an avatar of your own personality. Roleplaying means making in character decisions, and in character decisions for a character that is you, but can do things you cannot, is still Roleplaying.

But yea, if you're attempting to play someone that isn't you in terms of personality and underlying psychology etc etc, it's remarkably similar to method acting, to one degree or another.

I like to call it "you but ...". You know where the are motivations or personality traits that aren't yours, and you keep those in mind when making in character decisions where they might apply. But otherwise you can just do whatever you would naturally do. How many 'but ...' things you want to include that are something different from how you are IRL if up to the player. Personally I find that the PHB way of moral/social attitude (aka Alignment), plus Personality Trait, Ideal, Bond and Flaw is a good number to be easily kept in mind if reviewed briefly just before a game. But not so many as to be overwhelming for an experienced player. YMMV.

But the point is, motivations are the important part, not just history. Which is what lots of people that write back stories fail to understand.

mgshamster

2016-12-25, 01:02 PM

Tanarii, you've definitely convinced me to change up how I do back stories. I really like the motivation system. I've always kind of unconsciously done it for my more memorable characters, but I think I'll take a more active role in it.

Typically, when I DM, I almost always dictate the motivation of the PCs: your character must want to be with this group, and must want to be on this adventure. How you come to that conclusion is up to you. And then we try to tie in any history into the campaign.

But that's also because we almost always do published campaigns, and we don't want to stray off the path.

In Out of the Abyss, one PC had the slave background, and we made Eldeth's family be his owners. It really changed the dynamics of how the party interacted with Eldeth vs the other NPCs.

Another character had a druidic temple with a secret (that the player didn't know). I ended up tying that temple into the Ooze Temple and I made it the entrance to Gravenhallow. That was the secret. He was also missing his parents, so I turned one of the NPCs found half way through the book into his dad (who had madness that caused him to eat the flesh of intelligent creatures, like humans and elves).

The third character was hunting for the legendary library of the underdark (which is Gravenhallow, but he didn't know the name). He also had a love story, and I was going to introduce that love into the chapter where they visit the good aligned dwarven city of Gauntlgrym.

The fourth character didn't follow my motivation requirements, and ended up derailing the campaign quite often, as his motivation was "screw everyone else, we need to get out of the underdark at any cost." This motivation made him try to convince the rest of the party to ignore every side quest, every plot hook, every hint of helping someone in need, because "screw them, we need to get out." That player ended up quitting.

Tanarii

2016-12-25, 01:15 PM

Tanarii, you've definitely convinced me to change up how I do back stories. I really like the motivation system. I've always kind of unconsciously done it for my more memorable characters, but I think I'll take a more active role in it. I definitely lean too far in the direction of motivations sans history myself. As in, I think motivation is so important I'll neglect history completely or make it far to vague and unspecific. That works for me, but many people find it unsatisfying.

Basically, I feel that (initial) history is important only insofar as it provides the DM a plot hook or it provides the player motivations. This probably stems from my outlook that playing an RPG is the exact opposite of writing a story, and looking at it as a writing a story is actually detrimental to playing the game. And most back-story writers are definitely embedded in the idea that playing an RPG is writing a story.

My view that playing an RPG (or living IRL) has nothing to with story/narrative is not a particularly popular view. But insofar as making in-character decisions as someone who is not yourself goes, whether you're doing that to write a story or experience an in-game reality or even just play a game, IMO it's motivations that allow you to make that happen more easily.

Typically, when I DM, I almost always dictate the motivation of the PCs: your character must want to be with this group, and must want to be on this adventure. How you come to that conclusion is up to you. And then we try to tie in any history into the campaign. Setting boundaries on initial motivations to appropriately fit an initial adventure / adventure arc / on-going campaign is just as valid as doing them for anything else, such as backstory history elements, character classes, races, or whatever. Be it rules laid down by the DM when creating it, or a cooperative effort by the group as a whole.

jas61292

2016-12-25, 02:17 PM

I think there is no "one size fits all" answer. Not even for a particular person.

I personally like thinking a lot about backstories. If I am DM, I always ask my players for backstories. If I am a player, I always come up with one. However, the extent and detail always vary. I don't care so much about getting a ton of detail from my players as a DM, so much as I care about getting them thinking about their character and how they would act in certain situations. A backstory is a way for players to flesh that out by themselves by choosing interesting situations for them to be in, and figuring out how they react.

Of course, not everyone wants to write the same amount. Regardless of how much they come up with, I will always take what they give me and ask them questions. They won't necessarily be about specific stories, but just some important details to help me work things into the campaign. What is contained in their backstory just helps me figure out how much (and what) I need to ask them. But, I will never specifically require a certain amount of detail in a story. What someone writes is up to them.

The biggest reason for this is because of my experiences coming up with stories for my own characters. I think, depending on the kind of concept you want to play, certain types of backstories are more or less appropriate. I have had great characters who started with next to no story, and others that I spent many hours on, and came out to 5+ pages typed (single spaced). And its not just the length that varies. The format is sometimes just as important in getting the point across. My longest story ever was basically a third person biography about what happened so far in my characters life. One of my other long ones (which is my favorite character ever), was in the first person, and didn't go into nearly as much detail about the events of my life, but conveyed just as much through the way I chose to have my character speak about what did happen. On the other hand, I have had ones that were super short. Another character that I really liked didn't really have anything at all. I worked out some background details about where he was from with the DM, but I never actually wrote any story at all. Ultimately, what I write, if I write anything at all, really depends on what I feel fits the character, and to me that is a good thing.

Of course, that is only a good thing if you are willing to write whatever fits. I certainly have known people who never want to come up with anything about the character except a general stereotype, and, as expected, almost every character of theirs is just them, but with some quirk.

One other thing I think is important though is that you always need to remember what your character is capable of. As others have touched on, having a long and detailed story about how you slayed the dread monster terrorizing your town doesn't work so well when you are level 1. At the same time though, it is very important to remember that just because a story is long and detailed does not mean it has to include grandiose tales. For example, the second story I mentioned above was long and detailed, but it focused entirely on my characters time growing up in a small fishing village. In fact, when it came to anything vaguely adventurer like, I was mostly a failure. However, I was able to use this to convey who my character was, and why they set off to be an adventurer. And that is what I want to see in a backstory. It doesn't matter to me whether a story is 50 pages or 50 words. I just want to get a sense of who you are as a person, and what your motivations are.

And, as a DM, what I think is just as important is, not only for you to let me know that about your character, but for you to really get inside your characters head, such that when I ask a question or you are presented with a situation, you don't have to think about how your character would act. You just know. How you get yourself to that point, I really do not care.

Socratov

2016-12-25, 02:47 PM

When I tried my hand at DMing a couple of months ago I asked my players for half a page (a4) which should answer 3 things:

Who are you?
why would you be in jail?
once you get out, what are you going to do?

This, as a DM, gives me 3 things: a bit of history, a bit of past conflict (or indeed current if your incarceration was not enough for those you grieved), and an indication of what you want (ambition). So this give me 3 hooks. I might not employ them all at once, and it might take a while, but if I feel that the main story progresses too quickly I can use one of the hooks to slow the party down. Similarly, if the party gets distracted, I can fold a hook into the main story plot and get the party back on track. The resolutions of those plot hooks are fully capable of creating entirely new plot hooks and stuff happening in the campaign can do so as well. Like a nuclear chain the plot hooks will proliferate. And I find that having at least 3 plot hooks per PC makes for a fine number.

I chose half a page because first, a character should be at the start of his adventure and thus have a relatively uneventful life before (no retired adventurers coming out of retirement unless starting a character really high level), and he needs a reason to adventure. Second, adventuring is not a hobby for tourists as it's a very lethal occupation so what makes the character go out and risk life and limb? Third, and this flows from my second point in a smooth motion: if your adventurer has no goal to achieve or no ambition to fulfill, then why is he out there risking a potential fate worse then death and actually going towards the evil and dangerous stuff? And if you need half a novel to convey all this you have either waaaaaay too much history for a starting adventurer, need waaaaay to many reasons to get out there or have waaaaaay too many and too small goals to accomplish. Besides, I ain't got time fo' dat! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cT_Ulmcrys) Give me one reason why you exist, one reason why you specifically went adventuring and 1 thing you really want to accomplish and we can start. Are those set in stone? the first is, the second can change and the third can grow.

Sir cryosin

2016-12-25, 02:55 PM

One sentence, or one of the Bonds/Flaws/Inspirations is usually enough for a character.
The DM should try to work this into the story. That's why I like the backgrounds stuff that they've added, because it gives several little blurbs, prewritten, that players can choose to modify or just use at face value. The DM picks one or two that fits best in the story, and runs it.

This is actually a really good example of my point. You claimed that you wrote extensive backstories, but then you summarized them all in perfectly adequate 1-sentence backgrounds that I could use as a DM.

This is something that really depends on group. I usually give my players a "Session Zero" where they write their characters together. That alone usually gets them thinking in terms of how they know each other and by extension, what they've been doing. I just sit back and take notes. I give them the background and setting, and they slot themselves into that.

However, if players are the creative type, you can actually have them help write up characters and help you design the campaign world. This works well if you have a bunch of DMs playing together, who understand compromise. I have only seen this work once, and it was an online campaign. It was a lot of fun, but you're not guaranteed to even see the parts of the world you helped to design, if the campaign doesn't necessarily steer that way.

This I definitely agree with. This isn't a background - it's more like RP guidelines. A lot of people have problems with this, because it's more like method-acting than playing a game. You are no longer just "Player." You are Van D. Graaf, Journeyman Engineer - you've been disgraced and kicked out of the guild because of the radical mixture of science and wizardry behind your new electro-generator. To prove your point, you have created a suit of armor powered by your invention, to prove its durability and usefulness as a weapon of war in a bid to find a wealthy backer and regain your post with the guild.
That's not you anymore. That's not some intern at an accounting firm. You can't respond to threats the way you, as a person, would respond, or wish you would respond - you respond like the glory-hungry Van Graaf. You have to enter another mindset, and having a well thought-out character concept is not the same as a background. That concept will help you think more like your character.

But not everyone is a actor. Or they want to play themselves. Not everyone can do a different voice or able to think like someone else. That's why I ask my player just don't be murderhobos. I let them play the way they want if they don't have a background or a motivation other then I want to be a adventurer that's fine if the want me to add there back story into the game I'll try.

Fishyninja

2016-12-30, 10:00 PM

I personally love writing backstories for my characters, I give them to my DM and I always say to them "If you want to incorporate things from the backsstory I am happy about it but I understand it is not necessary"

I write them for me really and I would like to share some with you now.

Fentoris Virixidor - Wood Elf Ranger
I hail from a medium sized town called Clebury. It was, and I am assuming, still is, a beautiful town by a large bountiful lake. I was born there and lived with my two parents Aldarr and LLelwyn and we were happy. My childhood was like many, I ran and played in the streets. I caused mischief as children are bound to do.
As I was elven in nature many of the children grew around me, while I was still technically a child. However, as our town was mainly populated by humans we followed their customs. As a teenager, I helped around my parent’s shop, they were weapon smiths and metal artisans, they were well liked in the town and drummed up decent trade with the town as well as travellers.
During my teen years, my father took me out hunting with a bow, I enjoyed those days out in the forests around Clebury, they were dangerous but not as dangerous as the forests further afield. Our only worry was the odd errant wolf, goblin or Poison arrow frog, those things were everywhere and were extremely dangerous. They would easily paralyse you if you were not careful.
Over those years I excelled with the bow and I was a dab hand with the sword too but I enjoyed the thrill of tracking the beast, one on one and making that perfect shot.
This was how my life went for many years and I was happy but there were two moments that really changed me. The first was when my parents acquired from a travelling Dwarven merchant, the plans for a mechanical item called a firearm.
My father knew exactly what the advantage this would be and paid a goodly sum for the plans. Within a week he had his first prototype and he demonstrated outside in our small makeshift archery range. The only way to describe it would be a long wooden pole of sorts with a metal tube of steel. I watched my father pour this black powder (he would call it gunpowder) down the barrel. I then saw him place a small iron ball into the opening in the metal tube (I would later learn this is called the muzzle), he then opened a small pan and added some more black powder. He shouldered the machine, like a crossbow and he pulled the trigger.
There was a thunderous roar and the vase that was placed down range exploded into a million fragments. I inhaled and smelt the burnt powder, the oil on the metal and the wood. I was hooked instantly and asked my father immediately for a turn. He grinned at me and showed me how to load the shot, the powder, to tamp the round down and to add more powder to the ‘pan’. I shouldered the musket (that was what it was called), I was surprised at the heft of it. I aimed down the barrel, and squeezed the trigger. Now I didn’t score a direct hit like my father but I winged the vase and it still shattered and I felt powerful and I was instantly addicted!
I helped my father build these muskets and I used them to hunt, now not silent like a bow but they seemed to have more power and the roar of the powder also seemed to scare people too. I liked that.
That was mmore powder to the ‘pan’. I shouldered the musket (that was what it was called), I was surprised at the heft of it. I aimed down the barrel, and squeezed the trigger. Now I didn’t score a direct hit like my father but I winged the vase and it still shattered and I felt powerful and I was instantly addicted!
I helped my father build these muskets and I used them to hunt, now not silent like a bow but they seemed to have more power and the roar of the powder also seemed to scare people too. I liked that.
That was the first episode. The second was not so much.
In my 70th Year (still a child in elven eyes) and I looked about 20 to a Human, my parents were taken in one bloody night.
I remember awaking to my mother screaming and voices downstairs, I had already grabbed my rifle at this point and I made my way slowly down to the shop floor. I saw 8 men all in black clothing and face wraps in the shop, my mother in her nightrobe and my father in just his sleeping trousers. The men were shouting at them about handing over the money and the plans. My father was no coward but nor was he a fighter either, he refused and grabbed up one of his swords and took on thee of the men, in an instant he had run one through, severely damaged one of their legs and had practically disembowelled another, that was when the leader used a curved sickle type blade to stab my father in the rear of the head. My mother emitted a blood curdling cry and took her dagger and cut the throats of two men before she was felled.
Their deaths shook me out of my trance, I shouldered my rifle and felled one with a shot to the head. The noise jolted the leader and he wasted precious seconds looking for what caused the noise. While he was doing this I was already reloading (I had developed a set routine of reloading and I had developed these small paper cartridges that contained powder and ball which allowed me to bite over the ball, pour the powder in, stuff the rest of the paper in as a wad and then spat the ball into the muzzle, I would then tap my rifle a few times to tamp it all down).
I remember after all that brining my rifle up to shoulder and he was about halfway up the stairs, I aimed and fired. His knee exploded and he toppled down the stairs in agony. I was on him before he had completely settled and through his screams of agony I ascertained he was hired by an outside contractor but he didn’t know who. I wanted to kill him right then and there but the town guard, hearing my shots came in and arrested him (he was put to death later that day {oh how I regret not killing him}).
I pondered on what to do and decided that I needed to get more information on this outsider contract so I entrusted the shop and the families savings with a close friend, the only thing I didn’t pass on were the original musket plans, I don’t know why but I didn’t want anyone else to make them but my family.
So I wandered the wastes for 30 years looking for this outside contact. I made my money by hunting game, taking on bounties and occasionally mercenary work.
At the young age of 105 I am now here.

Innominate - Wood Elf Monk
It was a brisk winter's day, or so he was told.
There was light frost on the ground and he was in a woven reed and leaf basket of exquisite design definitely something that an artisan had made. Swaddled in what appear to be dear fur and skin bawling his lungs out. One of the elder monks heard his screams and took him in.
The monks did not believe that the young elven baby that had been left on the doorstep would not survive the night, he was very thin and it had been very cold for a long time.
It would not have been the first time a young mother or father or couple had left a baby at the Monastry dedicated to Kelemvor, the deity of death. It would seem people believed the monks would end the lives of these poor children scorned from their mothers bosom.
Some died and some survived, the ones that survived were normally given to local orphanges or adopted by local families. However Inommintate, yes that was what he was called, was given to neither.
The monks were not entirely sure what to do with the young elfling. Until the eldest Monk Master Mawoleth decided that the elfing had been left here for a reason and that Kelemvor would decide his fate. This was decided as it was well known that the eleven woodlands were extremely far from this monastery and the local town did not have (to their knowledge) an elven population.
The boys childhood (in human terms) was spent in the Monastery, taking classes in the base things. From an early age he knew he was different to the others he was aware of his graceful nature and build, or his elongated ears, the fact he could read elvish from a young age with no teaching. His need to not sleep and when he did sleep his dreams were as vivid as if he was awake. This however did not bother him because he had food, shelter and a family.
He occasionally got chance to play with some of the other children in the area who also thought he was odd but very fun to play with. He made many friends in his youth and had a relatively normal childhood.
Years passed and Inommiate was seen as a young adult in human terms (though he was still a child in elven eyes) and he had come of age, he had a choice, he could leave and move into the world on his own or stay and learn the ways of Kelemvor. There was no choice for him, he had spent all his life there, he had developed a family with the monks, the maids and the cooks they had treated him not as a ward but as a family member and if being a monk of Kelemvor was repayment then he would happily do it. He threw himself into the study of Kelemvor and how he interacted the world around them.
He trained himself to conduct last rites, the funerary services of Kelemvor and how they are conducted around the world.
He studied and assisted the elders in their chores around the monastery and after his initiation he was a full acolyte of Kelemvor. He spent the next few years (10) aiding as the conduit to his town to Kelemvor, he saw children born, and grandparents die he helped pass on the wishes and desires of the living to the dead. A Acolyte of Kelemvor is not just a funerary servant.
Inommninate had the joy of life in his bones and felt that he could progress no further in his skills, until Master Mawoleth asked him to assist him with a special task....

“Come in Inomminate”
“Yes Master”
“You have progressed well in your studies and you have aided the people well, you are a pillar to them and you provide them with so much joy and hope and comfort.”
“I'm only conducting Kelemvor's will Master”.
“What if I told you that your current duties, the last rites, the funerary etc was only a small part of what we truly do and are tasked to do?”
“Please tell me Master, I wish to do as much as I can!”
“Now obviously we are in service to Kelemvor and by association death, that means that we have to protect the sanctity of death.”
“I'm confused Master?”
“There are magics out there, cruel and unusual magics that bring the dead back to life to act as serf's for unscrupulous magicians.”

Inomminate physically recoiled at this point,

“Master this surely cannot be true?! Why would someone even consider using such magics!”
“Inomminate, these magics are strange things, sometimes the people wielding these magics are not aware they are in posession of this power, some are not in control and some do not care and only desire to use these magics to create willing servants.”

Inomminate clenched his fists.....

“What must I do?”
“Train, one aspect of trianing which not all monks take is pyshical trianing in order to defend the weak and to protect oneself on pilgrimage. Us monks of Kelemvor, as we are usually based within towns and deal solely with consoling the grief stricken, do not normally train in these skills however, I sense that you are sense for greatness and I wish to train you to act as a defender for the weak, the people and the dead.”
“When do we begin?”
For a decade, the Master taught Inomminate everything he knew of 'Martial Arts' and how they would help him in the world.
Inomminate realised that as he grew in skill that he was becoming even more of a conduit for his faith. Not only could he be a comforter for the grieving and a protecter of the week he could be a vessel that transported heathens and evil doers closed to Kelemvor.
Inomminate was aware of his Ki but he could not access it as of yet.
On his 32nd year the Master claimed him to be ready to defend the will of all and asked of him an initiation to prove his skills.

“Ah Inomminate, you can finally put you're training to the test, we have had reports form the farmers based on the outskirts of town that a nearby cave has become populated by animated skeletons and zombies. Before you become concerned, the cemetery is safe. Most likely some young magician has been dabbling where they shouldn't be. I want you to go and investigate, if you see just the corpses, lay them to rest, if you see their summoner, come back and see me, not that I do not think you capable, but as this is your first time possible confronting a magic user, it is always hard to gauge their power and without you being in touch with your Ki, you could be in danger.
Open that chest there and take the throwing darts, you'll also see a small sword and next to the chest is my trusty walking staff, with these weapons you should be more than capable of dispatching the creatures. Now go, do your duty and be careful.”

Inomminate geared up and made his way to the outskirts of town. He inquired at the farms as to where the cave was located, they pointed to the east and estimated maybe a 2 or 3 mile walk to the cave. This was a simple task for a wood elf such as he, being one of the faster races to roam the lands.
Within an hour Inomminate stood at the mouth of the cave, gazing in. His elven eyes easily piercing the darkness. He couldn't see any shapes within the entrance but he knew they were there the Master and Kelemvor would not lead him astray. So he held his staff tightly and entered slowly.

He wandered deeper into the cave and he began to hear shuffling dead ahead, he could see the corpse shuffling away from him....Anger burned within him. Someone had taken this poor vessel that was in it's embrace with the earth and heaven and ripped it asunder for what, to abandon it in a cave, what were they trying to do? Make an army, serfdom or for mild entertainment. Anger, righteous fury and disgust he stepped quietly behind the corpse, placed his hands near the base of the quarterstaff and with a firm straight thrust, plunged the staff into the rotting skull and brain of the corpse, it dropped like a puppet with it's strings cut.

Inomminate bent over the lifeless corpse, and whispered to himself
“I am sorry this happened to you, once I have dealt with your compatriots I will make sure that you are treated properly.”

He stood up exhaled and felt the righteous fury become a vessel of power within him. He slowly made his way through the cave, attacking each corpse in the same way, swift strikes to the head, the corpses piled high and after 2 hours Inomminate counted 12 dead bodies. They had been torn from earth and back to earth he had to return them. He carefully carried each body out to the entrance of the cave, ran back to the nearest farm and asked to borrow a shovel. He ran back to the deceased and spent the rest of the evening burying graves, and conducting the funerary rites hopefully required to bring their souls comfort.

Hot, sweaty, dirty and tired he returned the shovel back to the farmer and wandered back to the monastery.

As he entered the gates of the monastry, Master Mawoleth and the majority of the other monks and acolytes rushed to him.

“Inomminate, you were gone for so long, we feared the worst! What happened?”
“I found the cave master, I dispatched the souls inside, afterwards it did not seem right to leave them so I gave them their last rites and returned them to earth.”
“And there was no sign of the summoner?”
“No.”
“How are you feeling Inomminate, I have tasked you with a role that not many have done before and not many can.”
“When I saw them I felt a righteous fury build in me, I have decided I want nothing more than to be a bayonet; a bayonet wielded by the hand of Him. I would have been happy to be born a storm, or a divine threat; a mighty explosion or even a terrible hurricane. A divine force of nature without heart or pity for those who desecrate the dead!”

The other monks seemed perturbed

“Inomminate, come in rest, bathe clean and sleep we can talk more tomorrow”
Inomminate nodded but the Master still noticed the fire in his eyes

The next morning, Inomminate met wit the Master.
“Inomminate, I am pleased with how you have progressed, you have done all that Kelemvor has asked and more, you have served your town faithfully and dilligently and helped many people. Some of the monks were concerned with your behaviour upon returning yesterday but I understand the thrill of battle and the fire it sets in your soul, to protect those who cannot.
I feel you are at a time where I can tell you about where you came from.”

“Master I was left on your doorstep as a baby, you and everyone hear has raised me as their own, it does not matter where I came from, just that I am here now.”

“I thank you for that kind statement innominate, but you must know that you age differently to us, you are 32 years of age and I have cared for you since you were a baby. I am an old man and you will live beyond me and most likely everyone in this monastery. When we found you I knew that an elf, one of the longest living races being in service of Kelemvor was a sign sent by him. However I feel that even with this you should at least have an idea of your origins.” We have still kept the bassinet you were left in, it is finely crafted, of elven quality obviously. We had a local artisan approve it and they cannot identify the style it was made in, however they mentioned that if you were to take it to an elven colony they would know more. I am giving you permission, inomminate, to leave whenever you want if you so wish to seek out your parents, please do not take this as a banishment as you are always welcome here but I feel that with someone who will live as long as you to not their parents is truly a sad thing.”

“Master I truly appreciated your thoughts of me, but this is a big decision. I understand your point but allow me to leave on my own. If I ever so choose.”

So for another 8 years Inomminate stayed in the moastary and conducted his duties, he occasionally undertook special missions for the Master, with each mission he became more sure that Kelemvor was the one true deity and at a few of the sites he found carved stone tokens inscribed with a …..

Then as sudden as a spring breeze Inomminate made the decision to wander form the monastary to spread the word of Kelemvor and smite those who would do him wrong. He would also look for his parents, but he was not sure how he would react when meeitng them.

Max Valentine - Human Rogue
Maximillian was born to a relatively middle class family. They lived in a nice area of their city, his father was a swordsman of relative fame. He had quit his adventuring days at a young age of 40 and settled down to create the Blood & Iron fencing school.
His mother was a very learned woman who acted as the account for the school.
Max spent most of his early youth in the school either learning swordplay from his father, sparring and playing with the other students and learning numbers and letters from his mother.
This continued into his early teens. Max as a young teenager (while still devoted to his lessons in the blade and in the quill) decided he wanted to know more as he had spent the entirety of his life in this smallish area of the city. In his spare time he started to explore the upper and lower ends of the city, aptly named for their socio-economic status.
Both worlds fascinated him. The lower city was a place where the strong survive but the sneaky survive longer. Max experienced his first taste of the criminal world when an urchin tried to pickpocket him, the urchin grabbed his coin pouch and tore off through the streets, max chased off after him wishing that he had is sword with him. He chased the urchin through alleys and markets until finally he cornered the urchin in an open area of the market. The urchin seeing that there was no escape casually tossed the coin pouch back to Max. Considering the matter settled, Max affixed the pouch to his belt, feeling rather smug he had bested the thief he then decided to make his way back home after his mini-adventure. While he was about to walk through the inner gates leading to the inner part of the city, a well dressed man pointed at Max's belt and started yelling for the gaurds. Max utterly confused remained in place until he had a guard either side of him and an angry noble yelling that he was no more than a common thief. Max while trying in vain to calmly explain that he was no thief offered his purse as proof, for his purse was a simple leather pouch with a drawstring and an enamel tog, as Max held out the pouch he realised one thing. He had not bested the thief, for in his hand was a fine cloth pouch with silk cord and filligree....Max opened the pouch an upturned it, nothing but stones fell to the cobbles. The guards stared at Max knowing they had a thief at hand.....Max did the only thing he felt natural at this point, he ran straight past the guards into the inner areas of the city, his legs pumping and lungs burning, he tried to lose the guards in his local streets but they too knew the lay of the land, eventually he found himself in the upper district gasping for air. Max collapsed onto his rear completely astounded at the events that had happened to him today when suddenly across the plaza he saw the Urchin, this time dressed in finery, washed and and more impressively blending in. Max followed the boy through the upper district and caught the boy in the act of lifting a purse from a man. Max had the perfect opportunity to turn the boy in and best him however he did not, instead in a moment of madness as the crime was occurring Max purposefully bumped into urchin and man causing items to be scattered over the ground, Max was quick to retrieve the mans purse and make a great show of helping him and the urchin of the ground (he even went as far as to start brushing dust from everyone), he returned the purse to man, much to the man's delight and the urchins' misfortune. As the man was about to leave he inquired weather the leather coin pouch belonged to either of the boys, Max was the first to speak up and claimed his rightful pouch.
After the man left The urchin confronted Max. He demanded Max pay him for his loss of earnings but Max knew he could best the urchin in a fight with any weapon including his hands, he was a healthy teen and this urchin was a malnourished minor. Max decided not to fight the boy but instead made a proposition to the boy, Max would pay the boy weekly to teach him his skills.
The boy had to ask...."Why?" Max really did not know the answer then, he just knew that the rush he got from escaping and worming his way out of an arrest to besting someone with his voice and charm alone was equal to a decent sword fight with a good opponent.
The boy did not need a second to think and gladly accepted, in his eye he earns now and potentially earns later, anyway he still earns now.
Over the next two years the boy taught Max everything he knew.
On Max's 15th birthday, the boy introduced Max to a stout man, rough in voice but delicate in movement. This man was Lucius Lightfinger, well known throughout the city for his many talents, in the upper districts, he was a suave gentleman who could compliment, flatter and work politics like anyone else. In the middle district he was well known as a book keeper and distributor of goods and earned a pretty penny and in the lower district he was head of all the cut purses in the city. What made Lightfinger so good was he had three identities that fit him so well and only the right people knew the right identities. The urchin introduced Max as a potential cut purse for the middle district. Lightfinger saw the boys potential and started working him right away. So from the age of 15 to twenty Max spent his days in his fathers school, his evenings learning with his mother and his nights running over rooftops, breaking and entering and removing items of value. Max earned much gold during these years, not that he needed it he came from a comfortable background, he did it for the thrill knowing that he was able to do it and get away with it. Max spent most of the gold as quickly as he earned it purchasing better tools, knew knives and daggers, fine clothes. He belayed his parents suspicions by saying he worked occasionally with Lightfinger in his distribution business. Life was good.

Then at age 20 Lightfinger called every cutpurse, burglar, fence, and informant in the city into his lower district headquarters. He had a plan to pull the greatest heist the city, possibly the country had ever seen, a high ranking Cleric was visiting the city and there were rumours that she had brought much treasure with her including a chest of magical items. So the plan was laid out and Max was with the front team. During the heist the main goal was the Cleric's wares however as she was staying with the mayor of the city then Lightfinger saw the opportunity for two birds to be felled with one stone.
The heist was going smoothly, urhcins were distracting the gaurds, the guests at the mayors mansion were either asleep or dining. Most of the cutpurses were disguised as butlers and waiting staff and were lifting the silver while Max, his urchin friend and Littlefinger were to raid the Cleric's room.

As the rest of the crew were running there ops in the house, Max, Littlefinger rapelled from the roof to the window. From Window they could see the cleric noting some things down, however what amazed Max was that she was not holding the quill. His mind wondering whether he could use such a skill for lockpicking or thievery, for about 5 minutes the trio waited until she left the room, quick as a flash they popped open the simple window lock and were in. Stuffing as much gold and gems into their pockets as possible. Unfortunately the chest supposedly containing the bulk of the loot was magic sealed and Max cursed this, however they got away with a fair heft of loot, everyone in on the heist got away scott free. For weeks all everyone could talk about was the heist and how so much was stolen from under the mayors nose, every criminal in town was rejoicing at their ill gotten gains, except Max. He had been bested by a simple lock and he vowed he wouldn't let it happen again, and for that he would need to seek more knowledge along the way. This meant he would have to leave his family which saddened him but excited him so with the blessings of his parents, and his two mentors he filled up his back, grabbed his trusty swords and daggers and headed out onto the road. In the seven years of wandering he has learned many new skills, stolen many valuables, made and lost fortunes but he is always seeking to better his skills as a swordsman and a thief.

Rydor Oreknuckle - Mountain Dwarf Fighter
So you want to hear the story or Rydor Oreknuckle. Well pull up a stool and bring me a tankard of Mead and I’ll make your ears ache.
Where to start, I’m in my 200’s, middle 200’s. I hail from Bhergolar, a small dwarven city in the mountains. I like mead, ale, beer, wine, liquor. Look, what do you want from me? I’m a dwarf, we are simple folk, we are honourable, fair, we like our treasures and our drink.
*Sigh*
Fine, you know my moniker and from my axe and shield you can guess that I have been around a bit. Yes I have, I am grumpy old dwarf……do I really have to go on.
*Sigh*
Bloody persistent fools, Fine if we you are gonna bleed me for information be prepared for a torrent. I am Rydor Oreknuckle of Clan Oreknuckle. Oreknuckles are renowned in Bhergolar as sturdy workers, especially miners! It was said our ancestor’s hands were so strong they could tear the ore straight from the bosom of the earth! Oh you may think of us solely to be miners! This axe and shield should tell you that! I’m certainly not the first fighter from Oreknuckle, we have had people from all walks of life, miners, artisans, brewers, soldiers, fighters, louts, thieves.
We were not the largest, nor the strongest but we were, and I assume still are highly respected at home. I haven’t been home for a long time. Yes there is a story behind that. I’ll get there to that soon enough! Don’t give me that look, you are the one who wanted to get to know me!
I’m got going back to when I was I was a wee boulder. I’ll start during my teenage years. I was 60 I had been working a variety of odd jobs with other members of my clan, I’ve mined and brewed but this was a new interesting job, my father, the old bastard, sets me up with my uncle to do some minor caravan protection work. Now this was a rite of passage….No not a literal passage, no tradition here but it was a way for me to prove myself and honour my clan.
Here is where having pride and being proud differ. Having pride is to honour your clan, being proud is acting like you were drawvenkind’s saviour. I was a 60 year old whelp holding a battle axe and a wooden buckler. Don’t forget we dwarves live for a long time, much longer than humanfolk!
I was nervous but damnit I was going to do my clan proud! I did, the run was successful, so much so that my uncle set up a regular protection business, I accompanied on every one for 10 years. You know what the advantage of walking to roads for 10 years, you learn…..whether you want to or not. You learn to sleep rough, you learn the dangers of the road, and you learn how to fight. The most important thing I learnt was that the world can be cruel and it can be bountiful, it is beautiful and ugly. Bah.
After 10 years of fighting and walking and working with my uncle. I had earned a bit of coin, seen new places experienced new foods, wines, women and I was drunk on it, I wanted to see more of it, I wanted to see it all it was addicting! I had to get out of Bhergolar go wherever the road may take me! However I had to convince my family of what I must do. Again don’t forget we have a strong sense of individuality by the Honour of the Clan is to be upheld always and I had to receive their blessing. My father was against the idea, my uncle was all for it, he even suggested I take over his protection trade; but I didn’t want to be a businessman I wanted to be a wanderer! Anyway the meeting went…..let’s say it was a shining example of the diplomacy……He floored me, but not in anger it was his final gift to me. God he is a miserable bastard but he loves me and I him, so with a broken nose and a warm embrace I took some of my gold, hefted on my armour, grabbed my axe and shield and left Bhergolar.
I was 70 at the time. That was it I had left my clan to see the world, but how do I start? Well I knew I was good with an axe so as I did with my uncle, I sold myself out as a sellsword hiring farmers moving their livestock from village to city and fending off bandits, to escorting nobles from city to city. I was never short of work as I always presented my employers with an interesting contract….
Pay me half of what you are paying the others but teach me a skill in return. In that time I perfected my hobbies of beer brewing and viola playing, however that deal did not always work out well for me, for example I can crochet……..
Anyway forget what I just said about the crochet and get me another mead!
The one that really paid off though was one day I was hired by a town’s mayor to track some missing livestock, now this sounds like a mediocre task. Who am I kidding it was. I needed coin and there was a job. However whether it was luck or fate I ended up teamed up an Elven Ranger, what was her name? Vanlanthiriel, that’s it! Gods my memory never used to this bad. She was stunning and elegant and probably one of the most dangerous people I ever met. Anyway we were teamed up for this job, we estimated we’d be out of town for about 4 to 6 weeks. Now don’t get me wrong, I could sleep rough, I could make camp and I could trap the odd rabbit occasionally. But I was nothing compared to her, I remember on the first night I had barely set up my bedroll and she had already set up a camp, caught dinner and laid defences. I was flabbergasted.
The job went relatively smoothly, we recovered the livestock and got paid, and as per my deal when I was asked what skill I wanted to be taught I pointed at Valanthriel.
She was somewhat confused but she agreed, much to my delight, so for three months in the wilds about 50 miles from this township she trained me. She taught me to fend for myself off nothing but the land. I loved every minute of it but one skill I was very good at (if I don’t say so myself) was tracking, from the smallest animal to the flightiest deer, I could follow it, granted trying to take down a deer with a thrown handaxe is not as easy as a bow but needs must.
After three months I was a little loathe to go, I was learning so much from her and she was a sight to behold, maybe this old fool might have had his heartstrings tugged by her. But alas after the three months she had to go as she went I stayed in the wilds. I was 100 years old at the time.
For the next 60 years, I wandered the world for the sake of wandering. I walked from one coast to another, I stomped cart roads I stomped fields, I went from mountain to mountain and over hills and plains. I explored caves, and dungeons, and saw cities abandoned long ago by its populations. I saw lost treasures, natural wonders and met with people from all walks of life, some I recognised and some completely new to me. Those however are stories for another time.
Hmm… I’m empty, more ale barmaid if you would be so kind!
So after 60 years of warm summers and harsh winters, one day I found myself in a town, I was looking to get my kit mended and also long periods without mead can really strain a man’s thirst.
Speaking of which, where is that barmaid?
Where was I? Oh yes I was in a township whetting my whistle, and getting my gear repaired. In this bar I was quenching a thirst like a true dwarf, the bartender was happy, I was happy and drunk things were nice, I had forgotten the niceties of towns and cities, I decided to camp in town for a week or two to see how things played out.
At the end of the first week while picking up my mended gear I overheard from the smith’s apprentice that there was a fugitive on the loose, idly I enquired to what the crime was, this man had was on the run for murder, supposedly he had lost a card game and had murdered the other player in a fit of rage, stabbed in the middle of the bar and then ran. This incensed me, as a dwarf we value our selves on being fair in all things even gambling, so after paying the smith and chucking some coin to the apprentice I looked for the local guard and offered my services to track this cheat and murderer.
All I had were two things his name, Quopher and that he was a halfing. Now I knew that the Halfling was wanted, and with the town being small he was either on the outskirts being sheltered by someone or he was on the run in the wilds. My guessing was a man wanted for murder was not going to hang around so I wandered back into my home from home, the wilds. Anyway Quopher had about a 2 day lead on me but I was confident I could find him, if I was able to track animals my guess were people were just as easy. As soon as I was out of the township my skills came shot into overdrive I was tracking in the wild and I was bringing a felon to justice. For the first time in my life everything felt complete! I tracked the Halfling to a clearing 10 miles east of the town. I had multiple options, however again I am a dwarf, and even though I can track like a ranger I cannot sneak like one, so it seemed the best thing to do was to confront him, I strode into the clearing and said to him: I am Rydor Oreknuckle and I am here to bring you to justice…..It sounded heroic at the time, and you know what the little twerp did, he had the audacity to throw his knife at me, the one he used to murder that man. Anyway was expecting the attack and the knifed sailed true and embedded itself into my shield. Unarmed he tried to run, but he was a tired scared man, and I had to uphold my honour I easily restrained him and knocked him out. I then dragged his sorry carcass back to town.
I dumped him in front of the garrison, much to the surprise of the guards who felt it a lost cause. I was immediately hauled in front in the mayor who showered me with congratulations and gold. In all honestly I was not expecting to get paid for it, I thought I was just doing my duty! There were parades, feasts, gold, women, women, wine, more women….I was a young hero to these people I was milking it for all I was worth!

However I found something that I could do that would allow me to sate my wanderlust, uphold my clans honour and earn some money from it. Bounty Hunting, I’ve been hunting ever since and now this older bedraggled dwarf is the end result. I’m worn, and not as quick as I used to be but if you need a solid arm behind you and a man who likes to keep the peace and serve justice then I’m your man.

Velasco Fen Sec - Half Elf Sorcerer
I awoke, it was dark, but my eyes adjusted surprisingly well and surprisingly quickly. Apart form that I noticed it was bitterly cold, I shudder and feel the cold stone under me. I also notice that I have no clothes on.
I try to remember how I got here but I draw a blank, in fact I draw a blank on everything except my name. I would panic but I don't know what to panic over. I pull sit up an see that I am on a raised stone platform. I scooch over to the edge and tentatively push my self off, I notice a mixture of things scattered on the floor; mortars, pestles, broken bones and many many snuffed out candles. I reached down to pick up the mortar and notice something on my hand. A small tattoo.....shaped like a hand, seeing it makes me feel excited and disturbed too. I also feel the back of my neck prickle. I reach up and rub the back of my neck. I feel that the skin is raised, in a shape......an eye maybe? Another tattoo? A cold chill passed through the cave, shivering I looked around for anything to cover myself, I found some old rags, I fashioned them around my feet to protect my skin and around my nethers to protect my dignity....if I had any, I still couldn't remember anything.
I made my way out of the cave into the wild. It was bizarre I could remember my name, basic skills like fire making and other things such as which way was north, but anything relating to my history was gone.
So I wandered, with no real destination in mind, I didn't know where I was. So I made my way down. After two days of walking, foraging and sleeping rough I saw a town in the distance. Cold, Semi Naked, Bruised and Scratched I wandered into town, trying to avoid the town guard who would think of me a begger. In essence which was I would. I had no clothes, no money so I had two options, begging or stealing. I started with the begging and managed to scrape enough to buy a loaf of bread, it seemed I had somewhat of a silver tongue. So I had food but no clothes. This was becoming problematic and I knew that I could only get away with the 'poor beggar' act for so long before either being moved on or arrested, though three hots and a cot could work.....but then again the guards could as easily just kill me and be done with it.
No I needed clothes and fast. Begging would have to resort to stealing. I couldn't remember if I should feel guilty about it.
I made my way to a long empty alley with clotheslines zig-zagging across the place with an assortment of clothes being hung out to dry.
I kept my eyes out and quickly grabbed a shirt or two, some breeches and some socks. So I slipped on my socks, wrapped the rags around my feet as I was sans boots. I pulled up my breeches, a good fit and then quickly pulled on the over shirt and felt a tug on my ears. After putting my arms through I reached up to my ears......pointy......was not expecitng that, My skin is pale and not tinted, so I'm not a....oh lord what's the word....Orc! Elf....half elf maybe.....That would explain being able to see in the dark....No matter for the moment.
Over the next few days I managed to scrounge an old pair of boots from a cobbler. I managed to 'acquire' a traveller's coat and I had managed to earn and beg for a few gold pieces here and there, enough for the occasional squalid inn.
I spent days giving myself headaches trying to remember my past but to no luck. However there was one thing that happened that gave me some idea.

I was in a squalid inn, wracking my head about my past and who I was, I had a name a face and that was it. So frustrated I was at myself I banged the walls, upended tables and made a nuiscance of myself. The landlord did not care, he was a person used to cleaning claret as much as wine. My neighbours however were not to pleased with my noise and they decided to teach me a lesson.
As I was too busy stressing out and dismantling my room I did not hear them kick my door in. My only knowledge of them being there was the sap being brought down between my shoulders.
I spun to face the pain, as instinct gives, only to have the same sap come square across the side of my jaw, I stumbled and as I came down onto one knee another of my assailants kicked me in the stomach and I was down. Prone, in a foeatal position I was hoisted up by both of my arms by a human and an elf. In front of me a shortish dwarf thrusted his finger in my face and started shouting. I paid no attention as I was still reeling from the gut kick. He gut punched me and that got my attention.

"Oi...Whelp....who do you think you are making noise and disturbing us, we should teach you some manners!"
"So assault and battery were not your tools?" I quipped, and regretted instantly as the dwarf physically bristled and put two more hits into my stomach, at this point my props dropped me and I fell to my knees. I felt a hand grip by bald skull and a cold thing press against my throat. The Dwarf smirked at me. i began to feel a familiar feeling...fear. Sure I was a person with no memories but I did not want to die, at least with not knowing who I was.

I was in an inescapable situation, so I closed my eyes and steeled myself. Time slowed in my head and I felt something primal and arcane in me. It felt like me, but not quite like me I decided that would be the best thing to hold onto as I died.

"I suddenly felt the knife drop and what could only sound like a gargle....I opened my eyes, the dwarf had stepped back and pulled a sap and was looking at me with fear, I looked to my right and the human was about to swing a vase down towards me. My instinct kicked in and I do not know how I did it but suddenly the human flew across the room with such force that his corpse just crumpled in the corner. At this point the dwarf had gone. I was left with a scorched elf corpse with an odd smell, it reminded me of thunder and a human crushed in the corner.
Panic set in....I had to fix this, as I thought this, items from around the room started to repair itself...Totally panicked I fled from the scene, Not before grabbing the dagger that nearly killed me. I fled from the town and eventually, either by luck or instinct back at the cave I awoke in nearly a week ago. So shocked by what I did, I spent the next 2 months testing the capabilities of skills. I focussed on this internal power within me. As I said it felt familiar and it was all I had of me. I knew, somehow, it was tied to my two tattoos....I had to find out more. I spent another 2 months mastering what skills I had and then decided to set off into town to buy some gear for the long road. I again worked and begged enough to earn some money however I was a little wary of using my powers incase of being seen. So with daggers in hand, a crossbow and a pack I began my journey to find myself.

CaptainSarathai

2016-12-31, 03:03 AM

It's still Roleplaying even if you just play an avatar of your own personality. Roleplaying means making in character decisions, and in character decisions for a character that is you, but can do things you cannot, is still Roleplaying.

But yea, if you're attempting to play someone that isn't you in terms of personality and underlying psychology etc etc, it's remarkably similar to method acting, to one degree or another.
...
But the point is, motivations are the important part, not just history. Which is what lots of people that write back stories fail to understand.

But not everyone is a actor. Or they want to play themselves. Not everyone can do a different voice or able to think like someone else. That's why I ask my player just don't be murderhobos. I let them play the way they want if they don't have a background or a motivation other then I want to be a adventurer that's fine if the want me to add there back story into the game I'll try.

That's totally fine - I would never expect people to play as anyone but themselves. But I know that there are times where people have trouble doing this, or have a hard time RPing the character they've put together. A chief example: my girlfriend.

She's playing a Paladin and really shouldn't be. She has said that she wants to "not play herself" but that falls apart when she hits the table. Her Paladin therefore runs very close to outright Chaotic Evil, and murderhoboism. She'd make a great Half Orc Barbarian with the Outlander background, but she's trying to play a CG Half Elf Paladin Folk-Hero.

Something that new players have trouble with seems to be separating what happens at the table, and what happens in game. When you look at them and say
"What do you do next"
It's not natural to immediately realise that you don't mean her but actually her character.
This is why I usually enforce that all role-playing needs to be a minimum of 3rd person narration. This seems to work better for people, and keep them mindful that they are playing a character who may not necessarily be an extension of themselves.
"What does Erisana do?"
"Erisana is a hero to these peasants, so she demands that part of her reward goes to the commoners who helped her in the battle."

It separates the thought "what if I were Aragorn" and simply makes it, "what would Aragorn do?"
This is also great when people start making more complex characters, because it lets them put a buffer between themselves and some of the negative things their character might do. The church-camp kid didn't burn down that orphanage, his character did, because his character is a Chaotic Half Orc and "that's just what Thorog would have done in that situation."

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 09:48 AM

She's playing a Paladin and really shouldn't be. She has said that she wants to "not play herself" but that falls apart when she hits the table. Her Paladin therefore runs very close to outright Chaotic Evil, and murderhoboism. She'd make a great Half Orc Barbarian with the Outlander background, but she's trying to play a CG Half Elf Paladin Folk-Hero.A) Has she written down the Alignment Behavior, and has she chosen and written down from the Folk hero background a Personality Trait, Ideal, Bond and Flaw? Does she read them before each session to keep them fresh in mind? (And since she's a Paladin, has she written down the appropriate oaths.
B) Paladins are a little different. They have an oath to uphold. At best you can be an avatar of yourself trying (and probably failing) to uphold your oath.

Something that new players have trouble with seems to be separating what happens at the table, and what happens in game. When you look at them and say
"What do you do next"
It's not natural to immediately realise that you don't mean her but actually her character.
This is why I usually enforce that all role-playing needs to be a minimum of 3rd person narration. This seems to work better for people, and keep them mindful that they are playing a character who may not necessarily be an extension of themselves.
"What does Erisana do?"
"Erisana is a hero to these peasants, so she demands that part of her reward goes to the commoners who helped her in the battle."

It separates the thought "what if I were Aragorn" and simply makes it, "what would Aragorn do?"
This is also great when people start making more complex characters, because it lets them put a buffer between themselves and some of the negative things their character might do. The church-camp kid didn't burn down that orphanage, his character did, because his character is a Chaotic Half Orc and "that's just what Thorog would have done in that situation."
I don't agree with this at all. Never refer to the character in the 3rd person. But always use the character's name when addressing the person.
Look at the new player, and say "Erisina, what do you do next?"
Or "Chuckles the Dwarf (Charlie IRL) you're up, Dench the Stech (Daniel IRL) you're next"

But don't ever talk in the 3rd person it just causes the player to think of the character as a separate thing, not just an different extension of themselves. That will make 'method acting' much harder. Instead of just naturally being "yourself but ..." they have to hesitate and think through each and every thing, because they think nothing is the same as themselves. They can't ever get into character properly, because they're not comfortable wearing another skin. They try instead to look at the skin lying on the ground and poke it with a stick, or tie strings to it and dangle it like a puppet, then wondering why it doesn't move around properly.

I'd rather just see someone play the character as an avatar of the self. :smallyuk:

Edit: also YMMV hahahaha obviously despite my saying don't ever and the like, if you really think it works better, do it. :smallwink: the forums make me talk in strident terms.

Dr.Samurai

2016-12-31, 10:17 AM

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 11:41 AM

I prefer longer backstories as a player. It helps me get into the character and better understand them. The bonds, traits, flaws are not enough for me, or simply don't fit. Or sometimes they leave me asking "why?". For me, it's the difference between looking at my character sheet to see how I should respond or react based on a sentence, and simply knowing who my character is because I've invested into a background that allowed me to realize his character and motivations.
Even though I'm a huge proponent of the Personality system for motivations, I like this. Extending simple motivations into complex details sound good to me.

What I think doesn't work well, and the reason I'm "anti-backstory", is starting with backstory, mishmashing a bunch of history with poorly enunciated motivations, and calling that great character development. IMO the opposite way around is better. Start with motivations and then fill in backstory details.

There's a risk though. If you start with clear & simple motivations and expand from that, you run the risk of ending up writing something where everything stems from the same motivations too strictly. That's why (for example) people who used to use Alignment as the only motivation for their old edition characters ended up with rather flat characters. One motivation isn't really enough. Which is why I'm a fan of 5e's multi-motivation system. It's complex enough while still making things clear and simple and easy to use. (Plus it formalizes it. And I'm a huge fan of formalized 'rules'. :smallwink: )

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 11:45 AM

There's a risk though. If you start with clear & simple motivations and expand from that, you run the risk of ending up writing something where everything stems from the same motivations too strictly. That's why (for example) people who used to use Alignment as the only motivation for their old edition characters ended up with rather flat characters. One motivation isn't really enough. Which is why I'm a fan of 5e's multi-motivation system. It's complex enough while still making things clear and simple and easy to use. (Plus it formalizes it. And I'm a huge fan of formalized 'rules'. :smallwink: )

I think this is actually the biggest argument for a backstory for me. Again it doesnt have to be set in stone but I think you should have at least some idea about who your character is, their goals, beliefs, fears etc.

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 11:57 AM

I think this is actually the biggest argument for a backstory for me. Again it doesnt have to be set in stone but I think you should have at least some idea about who your character is, their goals, beliefs, fears etc.Those aren't backstory though. They're motivations & personality.

Edit: correction, part of "who your character is" can reasonably be considered their history. I meant goals, beliefs, fears etc.

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 12:05 PM

Those aren't backstory though. They're motivations & personality.

Edit: correction, part of "who your character is" can reasonably be considered their history. I meant goals, beliefs, fears etc.

Understandable, maybe it's jsut the way I think but if I'm in a party and a character goes 'I hate spiders' I would immediately ask why because as a character (and player) I would want to know the backstory. Now if there is no backstory that is fine but I would be introgued to uncover it.

Just from who I am as a person makes me want to find backstories if they are there.

However going back to the OP's post I think that a backstory is relevant for a character as long as it gives the pertinent details. The backstory may not need to be attached to the current campaign but again the player needs to knwo their character. Hell they may not need to share their back story with others but they need to know who they are and where they come from.

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 12:19 PM

Understandable, maybe it's jsut the way I think but if I'm in a party and a character goes 'I hate spiders' I would immediately ask why because as a character (and player) I would want to know the backstory. Now if there is no backstory that is fine but I would be introgued to uncover it.

Just from who I am as a person makes me want to find backstories if they are there.

However going back to the OP's post I think that a backstory is relevant for a character as long as it gives the pertinent details. The backstory may not need to be attached to the current campaign but again the player needs to knwo their character. Hell they may not need to share their back story with others but they need to know who they are and where they come from.
Oh okay I think I get you. You're saying the "what" isn't very interesting without a "why"?

Yeah, that's why I said earlier I tend to focus a little too much on personality/motivations, and a little too little on the associated history for them.

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 12:31 PM

Oh okay I think I get you. You're saying the "what" isn't very interesting without a "why"?

Yeah, that's why I said earlier I tend to focus a little too much on personality/motivations, and a little too little on the associated history for them.

Indeed, I'm a scientist and Engineer by trade the Why is super important to me. However as you focus on the personality/motivations you are inherently unlocking small amounts of backstories, which is still cool.

I think we are seeing eye to eye on this now?

Temperjoke

2016-12-31, 12:40 PM

I'm mixed on backstories. I agree that "here and now" is much more important to a character than their past, meaning that more emphasis should be placed on motivation, bonds,and flaws, than on a backstory. But at the same time, a characters backstory, how they got to this point, is the foundation that created their motivation, bonds, and flaws. I think it's more of a simple versus complex issue rather than having a background or not. A simple background is easy to understand and incorporate, as opposed to the book many people write for their characters.

Frank the Paladin - His village was attacked by Orcs when he was a child. His parents were killed in the battle, and he was taken prisoner to be sold. He was saved by a group of paladins, and since he was an orphan, was taken to a nearby church to be raised. Seeing the strength of the paladins, he chose to train and become a paladin himself, swearing to protect and rescue those in need. He just completed his training and left with the blessings of the church begin his quest.

That's a simple background that provides his motivation, and only a little more elaboration on his past would provide for his bonds and flaws. It's easy enough to tie-in with the DM's story too: maybe the BBEG in the campaign had a hand in Frank's village being destroyed, or maybe the church that Frank lived and trained at reached out to Frank to put him on this quest?

I mean, obviously it all depends on what you feel comfortable in doing, I just think that a simple background can help players be more involved in the world and campaign.

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 12:54 PM

Indeed, I'm a scientist and Engineer by trade the Why is super important to me. However as you focus on the personality/motivations you are inherently unlocking small amounts of backstories, which is still cool.

I think we are seeing eye to eye on this now?lol I'm a scientist and engineer by training, and a systems engineer by trade. And that means I get bogged down in minutia if I'm not careful. Ie I overly focus on the 'how ... does this complex and detailed system work'.

That's why I like to try and streamline things as much as possible for actual play, while still focusing on an orderly and clear contract to 'build' it. So for character ... Alignment, Personality Traits, Ideal, Bond, Flaw has become my holy grail. It stops me from getting bogged down in details, while still providing strong defining structure, and also making motivations very clear. I can see some would find it too constraining, or lacking in 'why' details, and therefore insufficient.

But yeah, I think we see eye to eye. We just have some slightly different tastes & goals for what we want and how to go about it.

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 12:54 PM

Socratov

2016-12-31, 01:08 PM

Personally I don't need to have a full diary of your first 20 years as a person to understand a character. If a player would enter a hypothetical table of mine, I'd require a few simple character specific details:

Who are you (and that goes beyond mere name and extends into a bit of hobbies, occupation, notable tings you might have done, where you come from, funny quirks and personality stuf)
What makes you special (why did you start a career that is emphatically bad for your health?why did you leave home hearth and heart and started wandering the wilds and cities looking for trouble?)
what do you want to achieve? (what is your goal and ambition? How will you reach that goal? What are you willing to give up to reach that goal?)

the first give me history, the second motivation and the third ambition. The first gives plothooks (blasts form the past), the second gives challenge (as you will be forced to leave your comfortzone) the third will give conflict: expect the ability to reach your desired goal, but expect also to have to give up a lot for it. Expect making choices where each option will make you lose something or require investment.

And I think that all of that can be written onto half an A4 sized page. Not only will this require you to focus on the actual content you want to tell me, but also to leave behind any and all pretentiousness and purple prose. Give me enough to work with in a clear and information rich format and I'll be happy.

That said, if you have a cool idea (adding or changing an ambition, bringing more of your dark and murky past to light) to allow your character to grow I'm all for it.

In my experience, characters with long backstory run the risk of becoming mary sues (even if they are controlled by the player and not the DM)

Potato_Priest

2016-12-31, 03:06 PM

What's a mary sue?

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 03:07 PM

In my experience, characters with long backstory run the risk of becoming mary sues (even if they are controlled by the player and not the DM)

*rasies hand*.....Mary Sue?

Addaran

2016-12-31, 03:20 PM

I don't agree with this at all. Never refer to the character in the 3rd person. But always use the character's name when addressing the person.
Look at the new player, and say "Erisina, what do you do next?"
Or "Chuckles the Dwarf (Charlie IRL) you're up, Dench the Stech (Daniel IRL) you're next"

But don't ever talk in the 3rd person it just causes the player to think of the character as a separate thing, not just an different extension of themselves. That will make 'method acting' much harder. Instead of just naturally being "yourself but ..." they have to hesitate and think through each and every thing, because they think nothing is the same as themselves. They can't ever get into character properly, because they're not comfortable wearing another skin. They try instead to look at the skin lying on the ground and poke it with a stick, or tie strings to it and dangle it like a puppet, then wondering why it doesn't move around properly.

I'd rather just see someone play the character as an avatar of the self. :smallyuk:

Edit: also YMMV hahahaha obviously despite my saying don't ever and the like, if you really think it works better, do it. :smallwink: the forums make me talk in strident terms.

I also noticed how different it is for people from different background.
From doing LARPs, i'm very pro first-person. If my character is uncomfortable, i'll avoid eye contact IRL or stumble a bit with my sentences. I'll try to show it with body language without spelling it out-loud. I can see people who did theater or method acting to prefer this way.

But i've noticed a friend that goes mostly 3rd person. He will often narrates how his character is saying or doing something, describing the body language.

Both methods have pros and cons, but i'm much more attached to first person. IMO, it gives better immersion.

Dr.Samurai

2016-12-31, 03:45 PM

What's a mary sue?
Kind of like a perfect character, or a wish-fulfillment character. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

I think there can be a correlation between playing Mary Sue's and having very long backstories, but certainly one can do one without the other.

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 03:49 PM

Kind of like a perfect character, or a wish-fulfillment character. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue)

I think there can be a correlation between playing Mary Sue's and having very long backstories, but certainly one can do one without the other.

I still don't quite understand you are saying a Mary Sue Character is only playing to fulfil their wish (i.e. to suit their backstory)?

Potato_Priest

2016-12-31, 03:53 PM

I would think it would depend on the type of perfection we're talking about. I think that a character who always makes the most tactically sound decision in and out of combat is less likely to have a long backstory, because the player would be less likely to have thought about flaws and bonds when making the character.

Dr.Samurai

2016-12-31, 03:56 PM

I still don't quite understand you are saying a Mary Sue Character is only playing to fulfil their wish (i.e. to suit their backstory)?
No, the player's wish to be the center of attention and have everything happen to them and revolve around them. They are perfect.

I think it's mostly more of a literary term, in which an author is accused of writing the main character as a mary sue, a vessel of the author in the story that fulfills the author's fantasies in real life in the story.

EDIT: I'm not the one making the point, and I think we'd find that if there is a correlation between backstory length and potential for a Mary Sue character, it'd be harder to show causation. I don't really know how you'd have a mary sue in the game since the DM controls much of the world. Can anyone else elaborate?

Fishyninja

2016-12-31, 04:01 PM

No, the player's wish to be the center of attention and have everything happen to them and revolve around them. They are perfect.

Noted. Thank you

Potato_Priest

2016-12-31, 04:03 PM

Temperjoke

2016-12-31, 04:50 PM

It's easier to demonstrate a Mary Sue than to describe one. You tend to see them more in media as opposed to games like D&D, but they happen. Imagine a character that always has the perfect answer for every situation, can execute it flawlessly, and any problems that arise only serve to make them look better compared to the other characters. For example, Drizzt is often accused of being a Mary Sue. In World of Warcraft, Thrall is often called a Mary Sue. In D&D games, you can see players attempt this, but usually it happens with DMPCs or NPCs rather than players since the DM controls the world.

Iden Elric

2016-12-31, 05:21 PM

Creating a background story for you character helps you bond with them and act in character while in game and have a direction on how you want your character to grow; what skills to level up, what invocations to take, etc.
While not all backstories will have much if any relevance later in the game, sometimes it's just fun for a DM to throw something from your character's past into the game, and challenge your roleplaying commitment as well as how well you remember your character's past.

Here's an example.
I have a Tiefling Warlock that I'm playing right now that grew up in the middle class of Neverwinter. His Parents were ship crafters and his sister was the only one that the family could afford to educate, but one day my character's parents were killed in a construction accident and buried in a huge pile of limber. The family that they and the other boat craftsmen were working on was being build for a rich family of merchants. When the rich family found out about the tragic deaths of my parents, they decided to adopt one of their children, but only one. They logically chose the one that had any semblance of an education, and took my sister into their family. So my character was forced to grow up on the streets until he met a traveling mage, yadda yadda, became a warlock.

Point is, this backstory explains my character's distaste for those in power that think they're above the poor, and leave those in need with nothing.
This is just one of many ways that a good backstory can improve your character's involvement in the world around them. Not always necessary, or even the best choice, but they are a powerful tool in world building, and character building alike.

RumoCrytuf

2016-12-31, 05:32 PM

So I don't ever come up with a backstorys. I don't even put anything down for flaws, bonds, ect..... I never have ever have them come up in any games I'm in. Now as a DM I see were a DM may not put a characters back story into there campaign. You spend days, months, maybe years crafting a adventure. And a player sits at the table hands you a story adout. How there mom and dad was killed by X-monster or X-person. Or they give you a short story of there PC entire life all the way up to we're the game start. Now I'm not saying to not craft backstorys that is really fun to do. I used to write short storys all the time.(even those I have no Grammer skills at all). As a DM I put so much time and effort into crafting encounters and what not. I may not have time to read all of Yalls back storys. Y'all don't want the DM to hand you 2 binders full of history, city's, religions, social do's and dont's for every city region, social group's ect.. it's the DMs job to craft a story for the PCs to be heros or to make the story feel like it revolve are the PC's. So I can rant on and on but I would like to get other people options to see were other people are coming from

P.s I do like when a DM does incorporate PC back storys.

I like to do it, because it adds character to well, the character! It puts roleplaying into roleplaying. I like it when my players do the same. For example, one of my players runs a dwarf named Beldin, is a former Pirate who's now an accountant trying to sell services to help with taxes! One of my characters, My namesake Rumo, is a High Elf who enjoys nothing more than a murderfest. He has a lengthy backstory, going from Paladin to Warlock and betraying his order; He became an outlaw and is now hunted by his former order as well as mercenaries and guards in most towns.

Eventually I brew up an adventure to involve whatever the players goal may be in life and center it to help them achieve it.

Âmesang

2016-12-31, 05:50 PM

This is why I despise pre-published adventures; or at least the past adventures I've played in, because it didn't matter what your character's backstory was; it didn't even matter who or what your character is—the whole party could be wiped out, everyone rolling new ones, and starting again as if nothing happened. May as well not even give your character a name in those cases. I suppose I just wish my groups would have a "session zero" to work on character concepts together and thus giving the referee a chance to try and integrate at least some of it into the coming adventure (or at least recognize that some players want their character to do more than just "play through the pre-written plot," or at least tie the character to the plot more strongly then "my character is here because he exists").

With that said, I understand fully that not everyone can come up with a detailed backstory, motivation, or even personality for every character they make. A lot of players are very much the "kick-in-the-door murderhobo" type, and that's fine; heck, even I don't come up with everything all at once, so when creating a low-level character I'll try to stick with something short and basic—just enough to explain who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what do they want…… is anyone else getting a sudden Babylon 5 vibe? I'll admit it's somewhat easier for me because, at least up till now, I've only ever played in pre-existing campaign settings so it's trivial for me to look up relevant info… and if the referee was running a setting of his own creation then I hope he has a document prepared that gives a run down of his world (like a miniature LIVING GREYHAWK™ Gazetteer).

http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifBorn in Menzoberranzan on 14 Ches, 1375 DR, "The Year of Risen Elfkin," Variolus is the daughter of Zal'therra of House Baenre, a former commander of the "Army of the Black Spider" and a cousin to Quenthel, the Matron Mother of House Baenre. A child of politics, Variolus found herself between two worlds; as a Baenre she commanded great clout and respect from her fellow drow due to her family's centuries-long influence… yet amongst her family she was barely noticed, being far from the hereditary line of succession. Instead, like her mother, Variolus found herself attracted to the more martial aspects of drow society, dividing her time between the priestesses of Arach-Tinilith and the warriors of Melee-Magthere, learning to enforce Lolth's will through strength of arms as much as through strength of faith.
http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifPersonal Goal—Unleash the Giants: In 1360 DR, on the world of Oerth, the drow of House Eilservs, led by Matron Mother Eclavdra, enticed the giants to attack the western borders of the Flanaess; now, six score and eleven years later, the Sword Coast found itself under its own giant assault, and Quenthel Baenre sent Variolus to investigate this sudden disturbance… and to see if these giants can be bent towards Lolth's will like those of Oerth had been. Much like her mother's conflict against the armies of Gracklstugh at the Pillars of Woe, no one in House Baenre expected the young drow to survive, but such a task could prove the perfect opportunity to not only heighten her dark abilities but to gather the might necessary to make her own claim upon the throne of Menzoberranzan and end the line of Yvonnel Baenre.
http://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gifAlignment—Chaotic Evil: Stealth. Deception. Intimidation; these are the skills honed by the drow over countless generations, allowing them to survive within the depths of the Underdark. The dark goddess, Lolth, routinely pits drow against drow to cull the weak, resulting in a society where backstabbing is a sport and 'love' is an alien concept. Variolus is no different, taught from an early age to put herself above the common folk and that an ally's life is only as valuable as the abilities he possesses. While she is expected to obey the Matron Mother of House Baenre without question, the matron is nothing more than another obstacle to overcome, to be crushed and conquered, until only Variolus' legacy remains…
I'm quite happy with how this turned out since it not only plants her squarely in the campaign setting, FORGOTTEN REALMS®, but also in the specific adventure, Storm King's Thunder—mainly by trying to tie it in to the old WORLD OF GREYHAWK® adventure, Against the Giants; essentially I wanted to give her something meatier than "I want to fight giants because they're mean." Granted, I do feel as though the end of the third paragraph is a bit too similar to the end of the second… but with that said I find using the "starter set" character sheets as a template helps greatly (though I imagine paladins could easily replace "alignment" with "code of conduct" straight from the book). Likewise I find the entries from the 3rd Edition Monster Manual IV and V make for great templates for high-level characters who are expected to have had adventures, meeting with success and failure, &c., &c… it all breaks things down into chunks which I think could help make writing it all out seem less daunting—just do it piece-by-piece.

Now I can also understand why some may be against huge backstories because, yeah, not every single tiny little syllable detail will ever come up… but I think it's still a good thing because you can easily bring things up, even just bits of it, to help flesh out how your character behaves, especially if the character is boastful or perhaps scholarly ("The Shadovar only 'discovered' the Plane of Shadow that late in Netheril's history? Really? How amusing! The Fiery Kings of Oerth were already aware of it a thousand years earlier, drawing upon its power to become the first 'shadow dragons'. Well, I suppose I should give Netheril's arcanists credit for eventually catching up…"—I've a document that collects all I can find regarding the Suel Imperium because I've a high-level archmage obsessed with her ancestors and seeking to emulate them and unlock their secrets, so it's handy having the information on hand in the off-chance it's needed).

Socratov

2017-01-01, 04:26 AM

No, the player's wish to be the center of attention and have everything happen to them and revolve around them. They are perfect.

I think it's mostly more of a literary term, in which an author is accused of writing the main character as a mary sue, a vessel of the author in the story that fulfills the author's fantasies in real life in the story.

EDIT: I'm not the one making the point, and I think we'd find that if there is a correlation between backstory length and potential for a Mary Sue character, it'd be harder to show causation. I don't really know how you'd have a mary sue in the game since the DM controls much of the world. Can anyone else elaborate?

It's easier to demonstrate a Mary Sue than to describe one. You tend to see them more in media as opposed to games like D&D, but they happen. Imagine a character that always has the perfect answer for every situation, can execute it flawlessly, and any problems that arise only serve to make them look better compared to the other characters. For example, Drizzt is often accused of being a Mary Sue. In World of Warcraft, Thrall is often called a Mary Sue. In D&D games, you can see players attempt this, but usually it happens with DMPCs or NPCs rather than players since the DM controls the world.

As the one raising the point I indeed mean a character who is always in the midst of the drama and the perfect mix of sad (lost parents is something you see a lot), awesome (mostly noted in past experiences, and with a plethora of excuses as to why the character is great at everything and able to meet with just about everyone. The longer the backstory, the greater the opportunity to include more and more stuff for the character to be good at or people to know.

Fishyninja

2017-01-01, 08:29 AM

As the one raising the point I indeed mean a character who is always in the midst of the drama and the perfect mix of sad (lost parents is something you see a lot), awesome (mostly noted in past experiences, and with a plethora of excuses as to why the character is great at everything and able to meet with just about everyone. The longer the backstory, the greater the opportunity to include more and more stuff for the character to be good at or people to know.

Almost like a walking, breathing Deus Ex Machina?

Socratov

2017-01-01, 08:48 AM

Almost like a walking, breathing Deus Ex Machina?
no, that's something different: a deus ex machina is a method of trivialising a problem (like savepoints and respawns in videogames) it is the perpetual solution (like Batman's toys). A mary sue is the perfect character: a character where eve its flaws are so very perfect and understandable. Like Superman: all the abilities to always stay relevant, all the characteristics to always be the good buy, and all the flaws to make him appear fallible (even if he isn't as his flaws are more like reverse features so they are overcome easily).

Fishyninja

2017-01-01, 08:50 AM

no, that's something different: a deus ex machina is a method of trivialising a problem (like savepoints and respawns in videogames) it is the perpetual solution (like Batman's toys). A mary sue is the perfect character: a character where eve its flaws are so very perfect and understandable. Like Superman: all the abilities to always stay relevant, all the characteristics to always be the good buy, and all the flaws to make him appear fallible (even if he isn't as his flaws are more like reverse features so they are overcome easily).

Ah more like the early James Bond Movies where he had all the exact gadgets, maybe. Anyway I get the point now!

Socratov

2017-01-01, 09:20 AM

Ah more like the early James Bond Movies where he had all the exact gadgets, maybe. Anyway I get the point now!

Exactly! Happy to help :smallwink:

So, back on topic, that's why I prefer not a backstory as such, but a bit more of an abridged collection of hooks about your character. 6 possible hooks about your character (along 3 axes: history, capability and ambition) is enough to start out. As you solve some of them on your way and want to expand on a certain aspect of your character you can always do so after a certain axis of development seems fun or applicable.

This also ensures that you don't have to spend weeks writing a literary novel, but could start play quickly.

I'd say that making a basic character would take 10-30 minutes (depending on the complexity and synergy of your build and your system mastery) and in this way you could take 5-15 minutes to come up with 6 aspects (2 per axis: who are you/family, how did you end up here, what are you good at and why are you adventuring? What do you want to achieve and what are you prepared to give up?)So in 15-45 minutes you will have a character ready to play that has more depth then a rock 'n roll nerd's songs, and yet minimises the chances of creating a mary sue and hogging all the spotlight. Over time, as your character levels up and becomes better at adventuring you will get the opportunity to flesh out your character more and more resulting not only in character growth, but also in character development.

Of course this will enable the trap of retconning. If you are not careful you can easily change details around or create paradoxical elements in your character. However, that's why I only keep 6 details in the beginning. 6 is few enough to keep in your head while you get accustomed to playing your character. Over time you will notice yourself developing quirks or missing a reason for something you want to do or behaviour you want to enact: well, that would be an opportune moment to grow your character's description a bit. For instance, you have a wizard character who you notice does not use fire spells often, or not at all. Well, this would be a moment where you can say that in his youth he once started a fire that destroyed the barn. Maybe you got badly burnt in the process. (Both history) Maybe you don't like losing control and find fire too fickle to work with for your purposes (capability) or maybe you want to abolish mankind's dependancy on fire and employ electricity in its stead (great ambition for a character in Eberron), and the best thing is that you could put down multiple of them (one for each axis?). In the case of the past you could play it off as an embarassment of the past, a repressed memory, or something your character did not think important enough to share with the party (this in turn could lead to new roleplaying opportunities like "What do you mean you don't like fire? I mean, isn't fireball pretty much the reason we are taking you along for, if not that, then what?") it shows you exactly how much stock your character puts in certain information.

This habit, by the way, is not out of DnD experience, but mainly taken from games like Exalted, NWoD and Anima Prime RPG where mostly the latter incorporates these kinds of roleplaying qualities to generate a seed for (natural) character development, instead of forced character development. It allows for a more natural spread of character qualities without creating a flat characters or tropes.

Lombra

2017-01-01, 09:23 AM

I'm sorry to be the wannabee grammar nazi here but... the plural of backstory is backstories, am I right? I just want to help, don't kill me please.

Fishyninja

2017-01-01, 09:26 AM

Exactly! Happy to help :smallwink:

So, back on topic, that's why I prefer not a backstory as such, but a bit more of an abridged collection of hooks about your character. 6 possible hooks about your character (along 3 axes: history, capability and ambition) is enough to start out. As you solve some of them on your way and want to expand on a certain aspect of your character you can always do so after a certain axis of development seems fun or applicable.

This also ensures that you don't have to spend weeks writing a literary novel, but could start play quickly.

I'd say that making a basic character would take 10-30 minutes (depending on the complexity and synergy of your build and your system mastery) and in this way you could take 5-15 minutes to come up with 6 aspects (2 per axis: who are you/family, how did you end up here, what are you good at and why are you adventuring? What do you want to achieve and what are you prepared to give up?)So in 15-45 minutes you will have a character ready to play that has more depth then a rock 'n roll nerd's songs, and yet minimises the chances of creating a mary sue and hogging all the spotlight. Over time, as your character levels up and becomes better at adventuring you will get the opportunity to flesh out your character more and more resulting not only in character growth, but also in character development.

Of course this will enable the trap of retconning. If you are not careful you can easily change details around or create paradoxical elements in your character. However, that's why I only keep 6 details in the beginning. 6 is few enough to keep in your head while you get accustomed to playing your character. Over time you will notice yourself developing quirks or missing a reason for something you want to do or behaviour you want to enact: well, that would be an opportune moment to grow your character's description a bit. For instance, you have a wizard character who you notice does not use fire spells often, or not at all. Well, this would be a moment where you can say that in his youth he once started a fire that destroyed the barn. Maybe you got badly burnt in the process. (Both history) Maybe you don't like losing control and find fire too fickle to work with for your purposes (capability) or maybe you want to abolish mankind's dependancy on fire and employ electricity in its stead (great ambition for a character in Eberron), and the best thing is that you could put down multiple of them (one for each axis?). In the case of the past you could play it off as an embarassment of the past, a repressed memory, or something your character did not think important enough to share with the party (this in turn could lead to new roleplaying opportunities like "What do you mean you don't like fire? I mean, isn't fireball pretty much the reason we are taking you along for, if not that, then what?") it shows you exactly how much stock your character puts in certain information.

This habit, by the way, is not out of DnD experience, but mainly taken from games like Exalted, NWoD and Anima Prime RPG where mostly the latter incorporates these kinds of roleplaying qualities to generate a seed for (natural) character development, instead of forced character development. It allows for a more natural spread of character qualities without creating a flat characters or tropes.

Thanks for bringing it back on topic, your system is a valid system. I tend to focus on a few core motivations and why they are adventuring and then build the huge backstory around that. Again the way I write backstories is that was the character until now, the campagin then becomes their history in the present and obviously that does not have to align with the Campaign.

Socratov

2017-01-01, 09:33 AM

Thanks for bringing it back on topic, your system is a valid system. I tend to focus on a few core motivations and why they are adventuring and then build the huge backstory around that. Again the way I write backstories is that was the character until now, the campagin then becomes their history in the present and obviously that does not have to align with the Campaign.

Well, the events of the campaign and and the events of your character's recent history should match, even if the point of view doesn't...

Fishyninja

2017-01-01, 09:34 AM

Well, the events of the campaign and and the events of your character's recent history should match, even if the point of view doesn't...

Of course, I mean that's why I like session 0 games.

furby076

2017-01-10, 09:45 PM

So I don't ever come up with a backstorys. I don't even put anything down for flaws, bonds, ect..... I never have ever have them come up in any games I'm in. Now as a DM I see were a DM may not put a characters back story into there campaign. You spend days, months, maybe years crafting a adventure. And a player sits at the table hands you a story adout. How there mom and dad was killed by X-monster or X-person. Or they give you a short story of there PC entire life all the way up to we're the game start. Now I'm not saying to not craft backstorys that is really fun to do. I used to write short storys all the time.(even those I have no Grammer skills at all). As a DM I put so much time and effort into crafting encounters and what not. I may not have time to read all of Yalls back storys. Y'all don't want the DM to hand you 2 binders full of history, city's, religions, social do's and dont's for every city region, social group's ect.. it's the DMs job to craft a story for the PCs to be heros or to make the story feel like it revolve are the PC's. So I can rant on and on but I would like to get other people options to see were other people are coming from

P.s I do like when a DM does incorporate PC back storys.

A DMs inability to incorporate a players story into some, even tiny, aspect of the campaign is a DM who is either 1) a brand new DM (forgivable) and hasn't learned yet, or 2) just plain lazy. Option 1 can be solved within a few sessions of DMs realizing how to DM. Option 2 is the players level setting what they want from the DM.

Really, it's not that hard.

Now, from a DMs perspective, it's up to the DM to review and approve the backstory. THe last thing you want is to approve a backstory where the player inherited a million gold, is the child of a king, and started the campaign with +3 equipment left and right.

In every campaign I have played in, my various DMs have incorporated a backstory when one was presented to them. SOmetimes they did some tweaking, but it always came into play. It makes for more engaged players. Also, it gave the DM ammo "oh you have a beloved grandma? Why, it's a shame of something were to happen to grandma"

furby076

2017-01-10, 09:55 PM

I always thought it was weird when people write long backstories for level 1 characters. Like, if you had any accomplishments whatsoever, you wouldn't be level 1 anymore, sporting only basic armaments and 15gp. Your character is probably fresh out of basic training or wizard school or whatever, and they caught the first caravan to wherever you're starting. [/SIZE]

Really? You can't imagine they had any accomplishments? Is an accomplishment the only thing someone needs to have a backstory? What happened before they went to basic training? Let's say they went in at 18 and came out at 22...so what happened for the previous 18 years? Those childhood years pay a HUGE developmental role into the adult someone becomes.

THere is a lot that you are missing by not thinking of what you did before you went to college/army/trade school/ work world. It doesn't have to be publishing articles, coming up with cures for diseases, or saving someones life.

I dont like elaborate backstories because Im big into worldbuilding & it just messes things up. All i want to know is where did you grow up, how did you learn your skills, how did you get to the first session of play, & who your parents are.

Just what kind of stories do your players write, and that you approve, that would break your world? Typical players story is a grain of sand in the beach of your campaign world. It's so tiny and miniscule that nobody outside of their village (maybe a few people) would know or care. Now if your player says he is the king of a great kingdom, just kick it out...but i've never seen a player so bold to actually think they could do that.

I like elaborate stories. It serves to attach the character and player together. It gives game motivation, and gives you plot hooks/options to get the player engaged. The biggest failure of a DM: Not getting your player engaged. Those back-stories, are an easy "gimmie". Take it and run with it. If your world is that sensitive to a normal background - then your world is tiny or it's made out of candy-glass

Finback

2017-01-10, 11:32 PM

I talk with my players extensively through character creation, finding out what motivates them, where they might want to take their character, and how their present life came to be. I may not necessarily use it right away, but I store all that away, so I can surprise them with it when they forget. As a player, I also talk about my ideas with my DM, so they have that same fodder to use if they can see a way to tie it into the story. We're playing CoS now, and my DM didn't realise my paladin was *born* in Barovia, so once I clarified that, he's been using it since - and he has the potential to do a LOT more, which I may not even be prepared for when it happens.

tl;dr version - talk with your DM/players a lot!

Finback

2017-01-10, 11:36 PM

It's easier to demonstrate a Mary Sue than to describe one.

I can give a GREAT one. MANY years ago, on alt.toys.transformers, this kid was writing fanfic about his creation. Except his creation was LITERALLY himself - a robot with the head of a 14 year old boy. The nemesis was the kid who it seems was bullying him at school (or he thought he was a bully); his dog was a major character, as was a girl he had a crush on. Transformers characters seemed to exist solely for him to appear awesome in front of. He was never defeated by an enemy, had whatever weapon or skill needed for every situation, and saved the day everytime.

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-11, 12:30 AM

It's easier to demonstrate a Mary Sue than to describe one.
Usually a Mary Sue is just "the coolest."
There is a handy test online, but it's gotten quite a bit longer since last I referenced it:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

Typically the Mary Sue is the one who is always a special-snowflake. Things like,
"My character has naturally blue hair"
"My character has dichromatic eyes"
"My character is the youngest person to ever graduate the Wizard academy - at the top of her class, too!"
"My character is The Chosen One of their religion"
"My character is the last practicioner of a long lost martial art"
"My character once dated the princess"
"Your character was a soldier? Well, my character was a Captain of the Guard, who ordered soldiers like you around"
One of these at a time might not be so bad, but too many and it becomes obnoxious. These characters are similar to "Edge Lords," who usually try to be uniquely unfortunate:
"My character is blind in one eye"
"My character is half-demon"
"My character has a (cool) facial scar"
"My character is a vampire"
"My character is cursed"
- Note that they'll never pick something that would be truly detrimental, like
"My character is missing an arm"
or something like that. It's always just cosmetic or background. If the DM turns these things into truly negative aspects, (you're a half-demon? Well, sucks for you then, that powerful magic sword can't be wielded by the impure) - then the EdgeLord either has a counter, or just whines and says that it's unfair.
Either way, Mary Sue and Edge Lord players just want attention. Tragically, it's usually because they are too socially awkward, stunted, or repressed to get it in a more typical fashion.
----

On topic:
Always, always sit with your players when they make their back stories. And pay attention. What seems broken at first might actually be really cool and the player might counter balance it by themselves.
Also, L1 Adventurers are still better than the average person. "Untrained" is straight-down 8's for stats, as I understand. So yeah, they could easily have been a little higher in the social order before turning to a life of adventure. The problem then is just the "why." You were a king, why are you out here slumming it in the marshes with 4 smelly hobos, ganking Orcs?

Examples:
My Warlock "stole" the identity of a minor Waterdavian nobleman from one of the wealthiest houses. Up side? As long as he does it from afar, he has an easier time requesting money be sent out from the House to cover his expenses. Downside? Guy's literally wanted for murder of a minor noble in Waterdeep. If he steps foot in that town, his life is at risk. Also, he doesn't exactly know who did and didn't know this noble. There have been times that I sat at a gambling table without bothering to be disguised, only to find that one of the guys I was attempting to con, had been a servant in this guy's house back in Waterdeep. Loose ends need tied, this guy was now a huge liability.

I had a Rogue who was formerly head of a small mercenary company. For years, he stashed away a small fortune and then cut-and-run from the gang. Now they're all out to kill him. He can't find the gold though. Someone else took it, someone he likely trusted. Used the Pirate background to represent that my character is quite notorious, but the DM had plenty of chances to manipulate my missing gold, and staying too long in one place usually meant catching up with "old friends" looking for their cut of the profits (or my skin).

It helps that these kinds of back stories weren't terribly uncommon in my group. The DM (and I, when I DM) are both quite liberal with your backstory, as long as it's not obviously gamist.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-11, 05:07 AM

One of these at a time might not be so bad, but too many and it becomes obnoxious. These characters are similar to "Edge Lords," who usually try to be uniquely unfortunate:
"My character is blind in one eye"
"My character is half-demon"
"My character has a (cool) facial scar"
"My character is a vampire"
"My character is cursed"
- Note that they'll never pick something that would be truly detrimental, like
"My character is missing an arm"
or something like that. It's always just cosmetic or background.

Eh? The only one of those that seems cosmetic is the cool facial scar.

If the DM turns these things into truly negative aspects, (you're a half-demon? Well, sucks for you then, that powerful magic sword can't be wielded by the impure) - then the EdgeLord either has a counter, or just whines and says that it's unfair.

To be clear, are we talking about mechanical aspects here or stuff like social interactions?

Though, either way, it sounds like a flaw of the DM as much as the player. If he's not having "vampire" or "cursed" affect the player in any way, then he's not doing his job. Same goes for if ever NPC completely ignores the fact that they're talking to a vampire or demonic person.

Also, in terms of why they don't pick something really detrimental . . . my guess is that doing so would be really detrimental. :smallwink:

Fishyninja

2017-01-11, 04:22 PM

"My character is The Chosen One of their religion"

So Clerics and Favoured Soul Sorcerers :P

Joking aside thank you for the great explanation of MS and EL.

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-12, 01:21 AM

Eh? The only one of those that seems cosmetic is the cool facial scar.
Or background.
It's basically just something that they want to be able to say but not live with.

To be clear, are we talking about mechanical aspects here or stuff like social interactions?

Though, either way, it sounds like a flaw of the DM as much as the player. If he's not having "vampire" or "cursed" affect the player in any way, then he's not doing his job. Same goes for if ever NPC completely ignores the fact that they're talking to a vampire or demonic person.
Por que no las dos?
It can be a flaw of the DM. The DM I'm suffering through at present usually forgets/ignores the fact that my Warlock has a Patron (Andromalius).
However, I've had a player at my table (same guy, both times)
Playing a Tiefling -
"The townsfolk here look on you with fear, they've never seen a Tiefling in the flesh, and the myth of their daemonic ancestry is well established in these rural locales."
"[Cool], I head for the local inn"
"The innkeep quickly shuts the door, and turns over the vacancy sign to 'none'"
"Hey, what gives, that's garbage man, why are you gonna punish me for the race i wanna play? Do they turn away the Half Elf too?!"

Playing a Red Wizard from Thay, in FR -
NPC Wizard: "I can show you all the map, but I'm sorry, it's in my study. I can't really... trust a Thayan in there, they dabble in magic I cannot abide"
"How does he know I'm a Thayan?"
"You have head-tattoos don't you, like all Red Wizards?"
Player goes on 5 minute explaination as to why his character is special and does not have ritual tattooing. None of which was ever included in his backstory that I have on my screen...

And I don't just pick on this guy. I've had Dwarf NPCs shut out Elves, vise versa, and had a Half Elf outright shunned by an Elven community. Half Orcs and Dragonborn also get treated with the fear/apprehension they deserve. Your race matters to me, as it should to any DM. Ditto your background.

Also, in terms of why they don't pick something really detrimental . . . my guess is that doing so would be really detrimental. :smallwink:
But that's what I mean - they never want to take something that has a mechanical drawback, real or perceived.
One thing I like about L5R is that they reward you for taking drawbacks on your character. So it was that I've played a one-armed, near-sighted investigator and duellist. I've played a drunken, cowardly blacksmith, and a cross-dressing woman out to kill her lover's murderer. Great characters all, and tons of fun.
In D&D, I would probably be willing to negotiate a "fair trade" if someone wanted to do that. I've offered before. But EdgeLord players don't seem interested - they don't like "not being the best," even if their character mopes around about being "unworthy" or whatever.

JakOfAllTirades

2017-01-12, 04:27 AM

I still don't quite understand you are saying a Mary Sue Character is only playing to fulfil their wish (i.e. to suit their backstory)?

There's a certain type of problem player (often talked about and seldom seen, in my experience) who's prone to writing ridiculously long back-stories about their "special snowflake" characters, then turning them into a "Mary Sue" once play begins.

IM(NS)HO, this is absolutely a player problem, not backstory problem.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-12, 05:05 AM

Or background.
It's basically just something that they want to be able to say but not live with.

Ah.

Por que no las dos?
It can be a flaw of the DM. The DM I'm suffering through at present usually forgets/ignores the fact that my Warlock has a Patron (Andromalius).
However, I've had a player at my table (same guy, both times)
Playing a Tiefling -
"The townsfolk here look on you with fear, they've never seen a Tiefling in the flesh, and the myth of their daemonic ancestry is well established in these rural locales."
"[Cool], I head for the local inn"
"The innkeep quickly shuts the door, and turns over the vacancy sign to 'none'"
"Hey, what gives, that's garbage man, why are you gonna punish me for the race i wanna play? Do they turn away the Half Elf too?!"

Playing a Red Wizard from Thay, in FR -
NPC Wizard: "I can show you all the map, but I'm sorry, it's in my study. I can't really... trust a Thayan in there, they dabble in magic I cannot abide"
"How does he know I'm a Thayan?"
"You have head-tattoos don't you, like all Red Wizards?"
Player goes on 5 minute explaination as to why his character is special and does not have ritual tattooing. None of which was ever included in his backstory that I have on my screen...

I see. So, they want to be edgy . . . without actually being edgy? :smalltongue:

Also, I'm impressed that these players have apparently managed to avoid having a DMG thrown at their heads. :smallbiggrin:

And I don't just pick on this guy. I've had Dwarf NPCs shut out Elves, vise versa, and had a Half Elf outright shunned by an Elven community. Half Orcs and Dragonborn also get treated with the fear/apprehension they deserve. Your race matters to me, as it should to any DM. Ditto your background.

Agreed.

But that's what I mean - they never want to take something that has a mechanical drawback, real or perceived.
One thing I like about L5R is that they reward you for taking drawbacks on your character. So it was that I've played a one-armed, near-sighted investigator and duellist. I've played a drunken, cowardly blacksmith, and a cross-dressing woman out to kill her lover's murderer. Great characters all, and tons of fun.
In D&D, I would probably be willing to negotiate a "fair trade" if someone wanted to do that. I've offered before. But EdgeLord players don't seem interested - they don't like "not being the best," even if their character mopes around about being "unworthy" or whatever.

I think get you. When you first posted, I thought you meant that anyone playing a tiefling or cursed character was automatically an edgelord.

Tanarii

2017-01-12, 09:25 AM

There's a certain type of problem player (often talked about and seldom seen, in my experience) who's prone to writing ridiculously long back-stories about their "special snowflake" characters, then turning them into a "Mary Sue" once play begins.

IM(NS)HO, this is absolutely a player problem, not backstory problem.
Correlation is not causation. However, IMNSHO & IMX, there absolutely is a strong and frequent correlation between people who like writing detailed backstories, and people that tend towards characters with a strong touch of "special", although rarely outright special snowflake / mary sue.

Similar to how Optimization does not mean No Roleplay, but there is a strong and frequent correlation between people who are drawn to focusing heavily on mechanics and who put a much lesser focus on characterization / motivations, although rarely full blown roll playing rules lawyers with no characterization.

Fishyninja

2017-01-12, 03:45 PM

Correlation is not causation. However, IMNSHO & IMX, there absolutely is a strong and frequent correlation between people who like writing detailed backstories, and people that tend towards characters with a strong touch of "special", although rarely outright special snowflake / mary sue.

*Looks around nervously, while cramming 10 page backstory under the laptop* Yeah, wouldn't know anything about that!
I will conceded that there is a correlation that's why I try not to hog the spotlight (I'm a talker so I sometimes do it unknowingly and I try hard not too).

Oh I understand the MS character concept now.

Tanarii

2017-01-12, 04:36 PM

*Looks around nervously, while cramming 10 page backstory under the laptop* Yeah, wouldn't know anything about that!
I will conceded that there is a correlation that's why I try not to hog the spotlight (I'm a talker so I sometimes do it unknowingly and I try hard not too).I'm a natural rules lawyer and ... uh, "you're doing it wrong" guy.

So I try to shut it on both of those during play. Knowing the difference between okay and too far, and your own propensity to cross that line, is a fine thing. :smallwink:

Dr.Samurai

2017-01-12, 04:48 PM

I'm a natural rules lawyer and ... uh, "you're doing it wrong" guy.

So I try to shut it on both of those during play. Knowing the difference between okay and too far, and your own propensity to cross that line, is a fine thing. :smallwink:
I love the amount of introspection involved before sitting at the table to roll dice. :smallcool:

I tend to be finicky about the rules myself (it's a game, let's play it by the rules!) and I'm also fond of long and involved backstories.

Fishyninja

2017-01-12, 04:48 PM

Through balance we achieve the ideal character....or murderhoboing

Tanarii

2017-01-12, 05:41 PM

I love the amount of introspection involved before sitting at the table to roll dice. :smallcool:Anyone that's played D&D for a while has had the joy of playing with a totally obsessed gamer who is a royal pain in the ass to play with.

And sometimes we're lucky enough to realize that yes, we're all totally that player in some ways, and maybe we should stop being a pain in the ass. :smallbiggrin:

2D8HP

2017-01-12, 11:45 PM

I personally love writing backstories for my character....
.....I would like to share some with you now.
[B]Max Valentine - Human Rogue
Maximillian was born to a relatively middle class family. They lived in a nice area of their city, his father was a swordsman of relative fame. He had quit his adventuring days at a young age of 40 and settled down to create the Blood & Iron fencing school.
His mother was a very learned woman who acted as the account for the school.
Max spent most of his early youth in the school either learning swordplay from his father, sparring and playing with the other students and learning numbers and letters from his mother.
This continued into his early teens. Max as a young teenager (while still devoted to his lessons in the blade and in the quill) decided he wanted to know more as he had spent the entirety of his life in this smallish area of the city. In his spare time he started to explore the upper and lower ends of the city, aptly named for their socio-economic status.
Both worlds fascinated him. The lower city was a place where the strong survive but the sneaky survive longer. Max experienced his first taste of the criminal world when an urchin tried to pickpocket him, the urchin grabbed his coin pouch and tore off through the streets, max chased off after him wishing that he had is sword with him. He chased the urchin through alleys and markets until finally he cornered the urchin in an open area of the market. The urchin seeing that there was no escape casually tossed the coin pouch back to Max. Considering the matter settled, Max affixed the pouch to his belt, feeling rather smug he had bested the thief he then decided to make his way back home after his mini-adventure. While he was about to walk through the inner gates leading to the inner part of the city, a well dressed man pointed at Max's belt and started yelling for the gaurds. Max utterly confused remained in place until he had a guard either side of him and an angry noble yelling that he was no more than a common thief. Max while trying in vain to calmly explain that he was no thief offered his purse as proof, for his purse was a simple leather pouch with a drawstring and an enamel tog, as Max held out the pouch he realised one thing. He had not bested the thief, for in his hand was a fine cloth pouch with silk cord and filligree....Max opened the pouch an upturned it, nothing but stones fell to the cobbles. The guards stared at Max knowing they had a thief at hand.....Max did the only thing he felt natural at this point, he ran straight past the guards into the inner areas of the city, his legs pumping and lungs burning, he tried to lose the guards in his local streets but they too knew the lay of the land, eventually he found himself in the upper district gasping for air. Max collapsed onto his rear completely astounded at the events that had happened to him today when suddenly across the plaza he saw the Urchin, this time dressed in finery, washed and and more impressively blending in. Max followed the boy through the upper district and caught the boy in the act of lifting a purse from a man. Max had the perfect opportunity to turn the boy in and best him however he did not, instead in a moment of madness as the crime was occurring Max purposefully bumped into urchin and man causing items to be scattered over the ground, Max was quick to retrieve the mans purse and make a great show of helping him and the urchin of the ground (he even went as far as to start brushing dust from everyone), he returned the purse to man, much to the man's delight and the urchins' misfortune. As the man was about to leave he inquired weather the leather coin pouch belonged to either of the boys, Max was the first to speak up and claimed his rightful pouch.
After the man left The urchin confronted Max. He demanded Max pay him for his loss of earnings but Max knew he could best the urchin in a fight with any weapon including his hands, he was a healthy teen and this urchin was a malnourished minor. Max decided not to fight the boy but instead made a proposition to the boy, Max would pay the boy weekly to teach him his skills.
The boy had to ask...."Why?" Max really did not know the answer then, he just knew that the rush he got from escaping and worming his way out of an arrest to besting someone with his voice and charm alone was equal to a decent sword fight with a good opponent.
The boy did not need a second to think and gladly accepted, in his eye he earns now and potentially earns later, anyway he still earns now.
Over the next two years the boy taught Max everything he knew.
On Max's 15th birthday, the boy introduced Max to a stout man, rough in voice but delicate in movement. This man was Lucius Lightfinger, well known throughout the city for his many talents, in the upper districts, he was a suave gentleman who could compliment, flatter and work politics like anyone else. In the middle district he was well known as a book keeper and distributor of goods and earned a pretty penny and in the lower district he was head of all the cut purses in the city. What made Lightfinger so good was he had three identities that fit him so well and only the right people knew the right identities. The urchin introduced Max as a potential cut purse for the middle district. Lightfinger saw the boys potential and started working him right away. So from the age of 15 to twenty Max spent his days in his fathers school, his evenings learning with his mother and his nights running over rooftops, breaking and entering and removing items of value. Max earned much gold during these years, not that he needed it he came from a comfortable background, he did it for the thrill knowing that he was able to do it and get away with it. Max spent most of the gold as quickly as he earned it purchasing better tools, knew knives and daggers, fine clothes. He belayed his parents suspicions by saying he worked occasionally with Lightfinger in his distribution business. Life was good.

Then at age 20 Lightfinger called every cutpurse, burglar, fence, and informant in the city into his lower district headquarters. He had a plan to pull the greatest heist the city, possibly the country had ever seen, a high ranking Cleric was visiting the city and there were rumours that she had brought much treasure with her including a chest of magical items. So the plan was laid out and Max was with the front team. During the heist the main goal was the Cleric's wares however as she was staying with the mayor of the city then Lightfinger saw the opportunity for two birds to be felled with one stone.
The heist was going smoothly, urhcins were distracting the gaurds, the guests at the mayors mansion were either asleep or dining. Most of the cutpurses were disguised as butlers and waiting staff and were lifting the silver while Max, his urchin friend and Littlefinger were to raid the Cleric's room.

As the rest of the crew were running there ops in the house, Max, Littlefinger rapelled from the roof to the window. From Window they could see the cleric noting some things down, however what amazed Max was that she was not holding the quill. His mind wondering whether he could use such a skill for lockpicking or thievery, for about 5 minutes the trio waited until she left the room, quick as a flash they popped open the simple window lock and were in. Stuffing as much gold and gems into their pockets as possible. Unfortunately the chest supposedly containing the bulk of the loot was magic sealed and Max cursed this, however they got away with a fair heft of loot, everyone in on the heist got away scott free. For weeks all everyone could talk about was the heist and how so much was stolen from under the mayors nose, every criminal in town was rejoicing at their ill gotten gains, except Max. He had been bested by a simple lock and he vowed he wouldn't let it happen again, and for that he would need to seek more knowledge along the way. This meant he would have to leave his family which saddened him but excited him so with the blessings of his parents, and his two mentors he filled up his back, grabbed his trusty swords and daggers and headed out onto the road. In the seven years of wandering he has learned many new skills, stolen many valuables, made and lost fortunes but he is always seeking to better his skills as a swordsman and a thief.OK I often regard writing a back-story as a chore, so I may steal some elements be inspired by, your back-stories.

Here's my current problem, I write back-stories in order to submit to DM's, and I've become adept at it, all I have to do is write-up a Mad Max-ish survivor haunted by a tragic past, and BAM! I'm in like Flynn (the longer and more tragic, the more likely it is a DM will accept the PC).
But I'm tired of playing brooding PC's weighed down by the ghosts of their lost loved ones!
I want to play a happy-go-lucky swashbuckling hero who does daring feats with a smile!

My inspirations?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/0/0c/Julio.png/revision/latest/thumbnail-down/width/89/height/131?cb=20120101220153

Julio Scoundrel from OOTS of course!

And from a movie I saw even before I first knew about Dungeons & Dragons:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/03/The_Sea_Hawk.JPG/220px-The_Sea_Hawk.JPG

Errol Flynn as Geoffrey Thorpe in The Sea Hawk

But..... while writing "dark" and "intense" is dead easy, I have no idea how to write a happy hero, with a back-story compelling enough for a DM to accept.

:frown:

I may start a seperate thread.

Astofel

2017-01-12, 11:58 PM

^ I definitely agree with you on the grimdark edge = accepted PC point. It seems that to a lot of people 'writing a backstory' has become synonymous with 'giving your character a horrible tragic past that haunts them to this day'. If you want to play a more happy character, I suggest writing a backstory that has your character feeling confined by their stuffy old family, their laws and traditions and just wants to go out to enjoy and experience the world. Works especially well for a half-elf raised among elves.

Cybren

2017-01-13, 12:20 AM

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-13, 04:54 AM

As annoying as edgelords are I find them less annoying (purely in the realms of backstories) than people that use backstory as a way to contrive explanations for how cool they are. Like we get it, you want to be a paladin 2/warlock 2/favored soul. I don't need to hear about how you used to be a paladin but forsook your vows when your third cousin stubbed his toe and swore an unholy pact and then awakened your latent holy powers before realizing you can forge your own path that also involves using twin spell in ways the designers didn't really intend

Lol, and that's why I dont view multiclassed as a combination of classes with a need to explain the progression. I just say, "I'm a [character theme]" and that's it.
Right now I'm mixing up Rogue, Fighter, and Warlock. The Rogue/Fighter combo is explained that he's just a Duellist, nothing more or less. Warlock is included in his back story (trained with Fey for several years in a realm where time passed differently - now returns many centuries later, although by his reckoning he was only gone for anout a year.

Tanarii

2017-01-13, 05:10 AM

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-13, 03:02 PM

He was talking about backstory though, so I thought he meant people who have this strange progression from one class to the next, a'la his example of starting Paladin, then twist Warlock, then twist AGAIN Favored Soul.
Rather I would have written that character as being a Paladin of a particular Fiend/GOO/Fey or whatever, and just played it as though Pally/Lock/FS is just a class that's always been there - a "Curse-Sworn" or something like that.

Otherwise you're saying that you don't allow multiclassing or hate optimizers. Which is totally valid. I wouldn't play at your table personally, but it's a valid approach to enjoy the game your way.

I just don't like when people try to shut down multiclassing by requiring story elements like a background or training. Especially in 5e, where people like EKs just strangely manifest magical ability at 3rd level. Does that Fighter have to train with a Wizard to become an EK? What about BattleMaster, do they need to train with other BatMasters to learn new maneuvers?
Why should my Rogue need to train with a Sorcerer before he can MC in, when he could just "get magic" at 3rd level as an Arcane Trickster?

Warlock is really the only one that requires work or backstory to MC into, because of the way you get your power. And that's IF your treat it as a Warlock and not just some manifested magical ability that is different from the typical casting style.
Everything else:
Barbarian - I got down with the sickness: open up your hate, and let it flow into me
Bard - one day, I started singing. It was magical.
Cleric - I decided to dedicate my life to the service of a god, and that god rewarded me for it
Druid - one day, I met a friendly squirrel who convinced me that nature is sacred
Fighter - so, I'm pretty good with a sword...
Monk - so, I'm pretty good at punching people
Paladin - I decided to dedicate myself to a cause
Ranger - I'm a really good hunter, and this bear just decided to be my friend, so that's cool
Rogue - I pick locks and steal stuff. Like every RPG character ever, but now I'm an expert
Sorcerer - I unlocked my magic abilities that had been there all along
Warlock - I unlocked spooky magic abilities that had been there all along
Wizard - actually, okay, this one might require training because of the whole "reading spells" thing, but you could probably get away with finding a book and accidentally reading Burning Hands or something, and it worked.

Fishyninja

2017-01-13, 03:11 PM

I want to play a happy-go-lucky swashbuckling hero who does daring feats with a smile

It's an old cliche but a good one. Boy Likes Girl, Girl likes Boy, Boy travels the world still in love with the girl, Girl is being forced into a marriage she doesn't want, Boy becomes dread pirate and comes back to save her, insert a spanish fencer, a giant and a man who doesn't understand the definition of the word inconceivable and they all have a merry advernture with a iocane laced wine........

......I think I might have seen this somewhere.

2D8HP

2017-01-13, 03:13 PM

He was talking about backstory though, so I thought....
You follow with some mighty funny stuff:

Druid - one day, I met a friendly squirrel who convinced me that nature is sacred
Ranger - I'm a really good hunter, and this bear just decided to be my friend, so that's cool...

But this duo floors me:

Sorcerer - I unlocked my magic abilities that had been there all along
Warlock - I unlocked spooky magic abilities that had been there all along

Sir cryosin

2017-01-13, 04:44 PM

Lol, and that's why I dont view multiclassed as a combination of classes with a need to explain the progression. I just say, "I'm a [character theme]" and that's it.
Right now I'm mixing up Rogue, Fighter, and Warlock. The Rogue/Fighter combo is explained that he's just a Duellist, nothing more or less. Warlock is included in his back story (trained with Fey for several years in a realm where time passed differently - now returns many centuries later, although by his reckoning he was only gone for anout a year.

I don't like that way of explaining. I have a player I a play with in a game I don't DM for. And his new character that he wants to play in my next game is based off of a anime character. He spent a hour arguing with me trying to let him fluff a maul as him using his legs and fist. I tried to explain that it's breaking rules ect.. but his argument was it a character idea and I'm still doing the same damage as I'd I was using a maul why can't I just say in punching and kicking. His character be for was a death cleric lv1 warlock lv6 and when I asked what was the turms of this contract with a fiend to gain is warlock powers. He said there is no contract his abilities are just part of his character concept. Then he goes on a rant about there is no Witcher class so you use MC to make one and there is no psyonic so you play a wizard and fluff spells ect... So as a DM and a rule lawyer I don't like that kind of player fluff.

mephnick

2017-01-13, 05:59 PM

I hate it when DM's treat metagame class titles as if they exist in the world.

No, I'm not a Fighter/Rogue/Outlander, I'm a woodlands scout for the military. Don't make me try to explain how I got my rogue levels, they don't actually exist in the world.

mr-mercer

2017-01-13, 06:16 PM

-snip-

I can see why you'd take exception to it in that instance (I mean, good lord) but so long as it doesn't break any previously established rules I see no harm in it. In the instance Sarathai mentions it sounds like the character seems consistent with the setting: no weaseling his way out of a contract (though the contract may be under slightly unusual terms), no trying to call anything anything else (i.e. the maul situation), etc. Of course, I'm no DM so it might be a little more complicated than I can see.

On the subject of the thread itself, though I don't see backstories as absolutely 110% vital, they are very useful for determining how your character thinks and acts. Being able to keep facts in reserve to surprise other PCs is also nice, so long as everything has been approved by the DM. I don't tend to make mine especially long but I do feel a little self-conscious about how many of mine have a section of "And then nothing really interesting happened for a few years" so I'm relieved to hear that this isn't much of an issue.

Tanarii

2017-01-14, 02:28 AM

Sorcerer - I unlocked my magic abilities that had been there all along
Warlock - I unlocked spooky magic abilities that had been there all alongokay, that's funny :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, most classes work fine for suddenly expressed / gained abilities. I agree a point by point explanation isn't always necessary, and sometimes even damages suspension of disbelief, for multiclassing (or class/background combinations). Unless the game/campaign involves strongly bound archetypes / fluff with classes and/or backgrounds.

Yagyujubei

2017-01-14, 02:55 AM

i would never accept a player at my table that doesnt have a fleshed out character....if you just want a combat simulator then there are better games for you. DND is about building stories, and you cant build a story around a character with no personality or soul. That being said I do agree that it can be annoying to get a three page essay on a characters history right out of nowhere. If a character wants to do that im fine, but after we've talked and Ive explained the world and setting to him so his mythos can match.

What i do is leave all of the proper nouns as blank whenever i make a background and let the DM fill in the specifics to fit their world. like saying yagyujubei was born in [village name] and always dreamed of becoming a member of [adventurer group or military organization], or he made a deal with [extraplanar being] to gain the power to take revenge against [human rogue badguy] etc. etc.

I find that it's easier for DMs to work with that when fitting my character into their world, and it promotes having character backgrounds be a more living and active part of the adventure.

edit: oh and for my 2cents on MC, I totally make players work class changes into their character story. I'm not gonna let someone at my table start as a rogue and then at level 3 be like "ok im a warlock now" out of nowhere. makes no sense. They would have to be like "ok i want to take warlock levels soon, and i want a fiend patron" and we can talk about how to work that into the campaign, but arbitrary class changes are no go.

or MC can be setup in the backstory too and im fine with that. If someone at my table is like, I'm playing a "ninja" by mixing monk and warlock levels and my spellcasting and abilities will be "ninjutsu" i'd be totally fine with that.

Fishyninja

2017-01-14, 08:30 AM

edit: oh and for my 2cents on MC, I totally make players work class changes into their character story. I'm not gonna let someone at my table start as a rogue and then at level 3 be like "ok im a warlock now" out of nowhere. makes no sense. They would have to be like "ok i want to take warlock levels soon, and i want a fiend patron" and we can talk about how to work that into the campaign, but arbitrary class changes are no go.

I'm having a debate about this right now actually in one campaign I am considering MCing my Monk with a Ranger for two reasons the first and most important being.....it fits the RP as there is a Ranger in our party and we have been spending time together, about a year in game time, picking up skills from him makes sense. Second it seems like an interesting MC.

My other group, whom I have discussed this with think I am making a mistake as it is not optimised and I should go with x y or z class, even though x y or z are not in our party. It makes no sense.

Tanarii

2017-01-14, 09:59 AM

DND is about building stories,
... and here I thought it was about role playing a character living in a fantasy world. Or playing a game.

I can't stand it when people make this claim. And this is why I can't stand the mentality of many people that feel back stories are integral to a character. It's because they are budding writers, and they think that their attitude that D&D is about writing a story is either universal, or an integral part of the game. It's not.

D&D is no more about building stories than living in real life is about building stories. It's no more about building stories than playing any other game. If you want to write the story of your character, go for it. If you want to write the story of your party's adventures after the fact, which I have personally done and the other players in that game loved reading, do that too. But don't try to claim that actually sitting down and playing a session of D&D is about building stories, and try to shove that view down the DMs/other players throats as if it's an integral part of the game.

(Obviously if you're a DM starting a session, you can set whatever style of game you want. But if you advertise a narrative game, or in any way indicate you think D&D is about building stories, I won't attend your table. Because I've been there, done that, and I can't stand the result.)

War_lord

2017-01-14, 11:36 AM

Seems like you'd be better off just playing D&D based CRPGs rather then the Tabletop game. They do exactly what you seem to be looking for, combat, combat, combat and dungeon crawl without having to get four other people involved and extensive prep time. Roleplaying a Character by definition requires narrative, because if you're doing your best to roleplay a character and the DM tells the party "hey, you're going to the dread castle of Lord Kazz Gro'Karr" you'd be wondering what your actual motive for doing so is, and that's narrative.

Tanarii

2017-01-14, 12:32 PM

No. I'm not. Because in a CRPG you can't play the part of a person doing anything (within the rules of the setting).

My view is that just like real life, the game isn't a story. It's doing things and interacting with a world, not unfolding or developing or writing a plot. It's living a character, not writing a (potentially collaborative) story. (Only, yknow, not, because it's still a game and not reality. :smallwink: )

And DMs who are writing a story for their adventure have been most of the worst gaming experiences I've had. Which isn't uncommon, people complain about that as much or more as 'hack n slash'. I don't like the latter much either, but it beats a narrative-focused game/DM.

War_lord

2017-01-14, 12:57 PM

Seems like your problem is with DMs who design their game to be a sequence of immutable events where any attempt at player agency results in hitting a plot wall. I fully understand that objection. That's not narrative, that's railroading. D&D narrative is emergent, but it does exist, that's what Roleplaying generates.

Tanarii

2017-01-14, 01:02 PM

D&D narrative is emergent, but it does exist, that's what Roleplaying generates.
No. It doesn't. Role playing generates outcomes in the game world. Not narrative.

Narrative is something you can add after the fact, by selectively editing if you like. But it's not a result of in-character decision making, aka roleplaying. Outcomes are. And also hopefully consequences.

Edit: now if you think roleplaying = talky-time / descriptions, it's unsurprising you'd think that roleplaying is effectively storytelling.

War_lord

2017-01-14, 01:26 PM

No. It doesn't. Role playing generates outcomes in the game world. Not narrative.

Narrative is something you can add after the fact, by selectively editing if you like. But it's not a result of in-character decision making, aka roleplaying. Outcomes are. And also hopefully consequences.

Edit: now if you think roleplaying = talky-time / descriptions, it's unsurprising you'd think that roleplaying is effectively storytelling.

An event happens, the players react to that event, they take actions, the outcome of which hinges on dice rolls, the DM describes the outcome, which has consequences that drives further events.

The event comes from the narrative, players react to the event, that reaction has consequences, which drives further events. Events don't happen in the ether, they're a consequence of some other action.

tkuremento

2017-01-14, 05:35 PM

My backstories are always doing X, Y happens, now suddenly I want to Z. An example is was a tiefling, cult wants to sacrifice me but paladins come and save me, become a paladin. It gives me a direction on how I want to play the character, without it I'd be Monotone McGee who only cares about the most optimal fireballs. I don't want to succumb to just power-gaming so I try to never have a dump stat if I can help it and always try to get in on some even minor RP. My personal fave is to incorporate chef somehow and take Gourmand as a feat to play into my backstory.

Tanarii

2017-01-14, 08:05 PM

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-14, 10:08 PM

An event happens, the players react to that event, they take actions, the outcome of which hinges on dice rolls, the DM describes the outcome, which has consequences that drives further events.

The event comes from the narrative, players react to the event, that reaction has consequences, which drives further events. Events don't happen in the ether, they're a consequence of some other action.

Everything you've said makes perfect sense except for "the event comes from the narrative"

I think that what Warlord is trying to say by 'Narrative' is that the DM has an idea of where the campaign is going. Either the world is a sandbox and the events will arise even in absence of the players/character, or the DM has an idea of the plot and only needs to be flexible regarding how the characters choose to handle things.

In all honesty, I've run Sandbox campaigns, and I've run more tightly handled "narrative" campaigns. The sandbox campaigns always morphed into narrative campaigns within a few levels of the start. Players would discover something to make a goal of, and the campaign would become about attaining that goal. The only difference to a narrative campaign? The narrative starts them with a goal, rather than forcing them to "find the fun."

The problem is when someone isn't flexible with their story. On the DM's side, if they simply write a linear "one way to do things right" campaign that is heavily railroaded in order to tell their story - that's awful. The players may as well just watch the movie or read the novelization.
If the players write some deep background expecting their character to go through a personal 'heroes journey' as if they were the single main character of the novel - that's just as silly.
In an ideal campaign, your background will get a little spotlight, but should mostly just define how your character handles upcoming events. The DM's "story" should be flexible enough to leave players room to think outside the box and be creative, but doesn't necessarily need to "account for every possibility."

War_lord

2017-01-14, 11:04 PM

I think that what Warlord is trying to say by 'Narrative' is that the DM has an idea of where the campaign is going. Either the world is a sandbox and the events will arise even in absence of the players/character, or the DM has an idea of the plot and only needs to be flexible regarding how the characters choose to handle things.

In all honesty, I've run Sandbox campaigns, and I've run more tightly handled "narrative" campaigns. The sandbox campaigns always morphed into narrative campaigns within a few levels of the start. Players would discover something to make a goal of, and the campaign would become about attaining that goal. The only difference to a narrative campaign? The narrative starts them with a goal, rather than forcing them to "find the fun."

The problem is when someone isn't flexible with their story. On the DM's side, if they simply write a linear "one way to do things right" campaign that is heavily railroaded in order to tell their story - that's awful. The players may as well just watch the movie or read the novelization.
If the players write some deep background expecting their character to go through a personal 'heroes journey' as if they were the single main character of the novel - that's just as silly.
In an ideal campaign, your background will get a little spotlight, but should mostly just define how your character handles upcoming events. The DM's "story" should be flexible enough to leave players room to think outside the box and be creative, but doesn't necessarily need to "account for every possibility."

Actually what I mean is that every campaign needs a bare minimum backstory of: What/who sends the heroes on their quest (and for what purpose) and why are they willing to undertake the quest (individual motives)? Anything further is in the "nice to have but not vital" category.

As for player backstory having its own plot hooks built in, that depends on the scope of the adventure. If it's a massive sprawling sandbox campaign that runs from levels 1-20 and takes the party from boiling Deserts to freezing Tundra, the DM might be more then willing to allow player backstories to weave in and out of the party's quest for the McGuffin of 10 parts. But if it's a smaller scale, time sensitive task, there's probably no time for 4-6 side quests.

Tanarii

2017-01-15, 05:52 AM

Yeah, you guys are making the classic mistake of calling a state of events and things happening 'plot' and 'narrative'.

Just as those things don't exist in real life, they don't exist in an in-game world.

These are devices of stories, not devices of existence or living it. Try not to get the difference confused in your fantasy elf games. :smallyuk:

SaintRidley

2017-01-15, 11:12 PM

I always thought it was weird when people write long backstories for level 1 characters. Like, if you had any accomplishments whatsoever, you wouldn't be level 1 anymore, sporting only basic armaments and 15gp. Your character is probably fresh out of basic training or wizard school or whatever, and they caught the first caravan to wherever you're starting. I guess I can understand a backstory for a 5th level character; you've done a few adventures' worth of harrowing deeds. Even so, "worked for such and such organization for several years" usually has sufficient explanatory power.

I like backstories to be something you create with the DM during the campaign as the world and the character arcs get more fleshed out. If I had my way, every backstory would be retconned in, like flashbacks in an inconsistent TV show. Rolled a 20 on a knowledge check? Come up with a story for how you learned that. DM needs a personality for a random NPC? Maybe it's your buddy from way back. Roll a 1 on a diplomacy check? Maybe you stood this NPC up or had a one-night stand and still don't recognize her. Or maybe the BBEG is your dad.

The few pieces of background information that can be useful: region/country/city you're from; how you came to be here; (preferred) mode of (non-murderhobo) employment; 1-2 important (i.e. family, close friend, mentor, ex-lover) NPCs that are still alive and could potentially be worked into the story.

Pretty much. I like to start characters low level rather than play in games that start higher than about 5th (usually my ceiling for starting level). I don't write but more than a couple paragraphs of backstory before I start playing. It's not necessary, and I don't know the character well enough yet. I rarely define the personality beyond broad strokes at this point either.

For me, I get to know the character by playing them. The personality becomes more defined the more I play, and the facts of the background come up as necessary and as I explore the character. My girl Gerðr's family came into existence when prompted by the DM to say if she had any living family (it seemed clear to me at that time that she had parents and a younger sister and their names). Her reactions to NPCs seem rooted in the broad strokes of a background I had given her - evidently she spent enough time out of doors, hunting, that she lost a step in social development. She doesn't deal well with people who ply dishonesty, and she's prone to thinking as a hunter first and a friend/colleague/daughter/sister/crewmember second. It's led to some great moments (aided by some very fortunate rolls at key points) to simply let the character drive the story I tell with her. Even though it's an online game, I'm pretty sure I'd like to get a HeroForge mini made of her, because she's one of my favorite characters I've ever played.

SmokingSkull

2017-01-16, 01:58 AM

When it comes to backstories I usually go by the idea of why a character is the way they are, there's reasons usually rooted at key points in their life that forever shaped them. As for the character personality I developed it over time as the campaign went on, however what started it initially was how my DM inserted my character into the game. My current character came later, he wasn't there in the beginning so tbh there was no session zero for me this time. It was a challenge, but I grew to like it despite my initial grumbling. It's interesting going from a disillusioned, disparate merc with an attitude to a man driven by his loss to making a better future for him and his newfound family.

I've rewritten his bio quite a few times and have settled on one no longer than about a paragraph or so. It gets to the point of all the major things that happened that would define what he decided to do and how he got there. He is my favorite one to play so far, and the best blessing is my DM is accommodating!

2D8HP

2017-01-16, 02:05 PM

I always thought it was weird when people write long backstories for level 1 characters.....

I write long back-stories for my first level PC's because DM's demand it.

The longer (and usually more tragic) the back-story is, the more likely it seems that I will be allowed to play.

Simple as that.

Pretty much. I like to start characters low level rather than play in games that start higher than about 5th (usually my ceiling for starting level). I don't write but more than a couple paragraphs of backstory before I start playing. It's not necessary, and I don't know the character well enough yet. I rarely define the personality beyond broad strokes at this point either.

For me, I get to know the character by playing them......

That sounds wonderful!

I'd like to have the opportunity to play like that.

MyrddinDerwydd

2017-01-30, 01:06 PM

Hi! I've actually ended up turning backstory work into full, written story chapters looking at what happened long before our party existed. PCs and NPCs alike are getting a lot of fleshing out, which is really interesting to explore (but a lot of work). Take a look & follow my blog if you'd like updates.
MyrddinDerwydd.WordPress.com (myrddinderwydd.wordpress.com)

-Myrddin

Zorku

2017-01-30, 05:44 PM

I'm kind of strapped for time so I didn't get very far into the thread, but I was surprised not to see the "oh, you've got a bunch of family members in your back story? Looks like I just got a bunch of hostages" dm trope in any of the early posts.

What I've found I prefer to do is I ask my players, when designing characters, to provide me with two things: A list of (at least) three allegiances that they feel define their character, and a short-term and long-term goal for their character.

If I had my way, every backstory would be retconned in

I've been smitten by the retcon explanation for skill checks thing for awhile, but the folks I play with are only recently starting to actually wrap their heads around it (as in, having any fun with out of order storytelling.)

So without that, some years ago I came across a useful tool for establishing just-enough backstory. You divide a sheet of paper into 4 or 9 squares (+ or #) and these are going to list your character motivations. Stuff at the bottom is short term and stuff at the top is long term. Left is nearby and right is far off.

With 9 squares, at some point in the campaign beating up BBEG is probably going to feature somewhere top-right-ish, while something like finding drinkable water in a desert would feature bottom left. If you use 9 squares I'd encourage players to fill up about half of them during character creation- but weaker goals can get overwritten by stronger goals over time.

Some of the stronger roleplayers I sit down with don't need this at all, but a lot of the people I introduce to the table aren't really used to thinking about the role they're trying to play, and this is kind of a cheap shortcut to making them take some kind of notes so they'll actually remember what's going on... maybe.

BW022

2017-01-30, 06:35 PM

Times when a background can be helpful...

1. It helps you role play your character.
2. You don't have to make everything up and you don't get inconsistencies each time you have to make something up.
3. You can take time to figure how your character would fit into the setting.
4. Players are researching the setting, asking questions, and getting some idea what the area is like.
5. It is fun for some players -- research, dress, customs, reactions, languages, etc.
6. Helps frame motivations. Personality can be hard and many players fall into the same concepts each time. Different backgrounds often help avoid this.
7. It often leads to interplay between PCs -- I'm from X, where are you from? Ohh... my uncle is from there. It can often lead to understanding and trust. You are a 'real' person rather than some dark cloaked person with 'secrets' merely because you don't have a background.
8. You can develop a reason for being there.
9. People know that you are making a commitment to the game. DMs put in a ton of work, most players... not so much.
10. Events often make roleplaying personality, interests, etc. easier. If you were attacked by a wizard... maybe you react poorly to wizards. If you are an elf who has never seen humans vs. one who lives in a human city?
11. It gives both the player and DM license to know things. If you arrive in a city which one of the players is from... heck, let them meet their family, know their way around, help the party get a meeting with someone, etc.
etc.

Times when a background can be unhelpful...

1. Your background is too fantastic.
2. It doesn't factor in setting, plot, level, etc.
3. It conflicts with plot.
4. You expect the campaign to follow your plot.
5. You don't have the time/effort to put into it.
6. It is too closed, or you use it to creative motivations which are anti-party or cause adventure issues. "My character would never to there."
7. You put too much time into it, given the campaign or setting.
etc.

Roan_Spence

2017-04-25, 01:28 PM

When I create a character backstory as a player, I like to assume they're starting at level 1 and are basically just leaving the nest. I kind of like the way the cast of Critical Role have their stuff set up and while I don't think it's necessary for a GM to include character backstory or personal quests in what they're crafting, I think, if the GM/DM thinks they can it can be a cool way to keep everyone engaged. Especially if you've got a more creative group. Most of the ideas I've come up with basically outline a character's basic training, education and reason for going on an adventure/personal quest. For example my current sorcerer character is a minor gnomish noble's 4th child who was a lazy, well read layabout until his sorcery manifested. His family then basically ships him off to be a mercenary so he can learn some discipline and put his abilities to good use (and get him out of their hair). That's about all that's 100% necessary.

In my current group I think me and the guy playing a female Warpriest are the only ones with any kind of basic backstory for our characters and they're pretty simple. His character wants to test herself against constantly stronger opponents and mine wants to discover the source of and reason for his manifestation of sorcery.

I am learning all kinds of interesting things about my current character as I play him though.

Maxilian

2017-04-25, 01:36 PM

I go mostly with a theme.

For example: Water Genasi Ranger

Then start asking some basic questions.

Where was she born? who are her parents? if one was trully a Djinni then what happened to it and how does she feel about her duality of races? Why is she an adventurer? and Why is she willingly to party up with people she may dislike? (that's something that as a DM i ask of my players)

Jophiel

2017-04-25, 09:09 PM

When I create a character backstory as a player, I like to assume they're starting at level 1 and are basically just leaving the nest.
Same. I want a reason why they (a) have the starting skills they have and (b) are setting out into a world full of bitey things. Also, I like to have a few potential plot hooks the DM can use if he wants but which don't cramp my character's style if he doesn't. Saying I left my farm town when, while on town patrol, I accidentally killed the mayor's prize goat (thinking that rustling in the bushes must be a gnoll) and so I swiftly made up a 'vision' of having to travel into the wilderness for repentance gives the DM some stuff to work with. But, if he doesn't, it's no big deal. On the other hand, saying that I swore vengeance after my wife was murdered by the arch-baron wizard and my children were kidnapped by otyughs sounds kind of weird if the DM has alternate campaign plans that don't revolve around otyugh hunting. "Oh, hey, going to travel to the Lost Jungle to kill the green dragon for a while. It's cool, I hear otyughs make good parents..."

I make a personal choice to restrict my story to the space in the standard character sheet box (typed). That gives me enough space to answer (a) & (b) above while not allowing me to get too florid and overly complicated.

Roan_Spence

2017-04-29, 07:42 AM

Same. I want a reason why they (a) have the starting skills they have and (b) are setting out into a world full of bitey things. Also, I like to have a few potential plot hooks the DM can use if he wants but which don't cramp my character's style if he doesn't. Saying I left my farm town when, while on town patrol, I accidentally killed the mayor's prize goat (thinking that rustling in the bushes must be a gnoll) and so I swiftly made up a 'vision' of having to travel into the wilderness for repentance gives the DM some stuff to work with. But, if he doesn't, it's no big deal. On the other hand, saying that I swore vengeance after my wife was murdered by the arch-baron wizard and my children were kidnapped by otyughs sounds kind of weird if the DM has alternate campaign plans that don't revolve around otyugh hunting. "Oh, hey, going to travel to the Lost Jungle to kill the green dragon for a while. It's cool, I hear otyughs make good parents..."

I make a personal choice to restrict my story to the space in the standard character sheet box (typed). That gives me enough space to answer (a) & (b) above while not allowing me to get too florid and overly complicated.

That's a good set of rules of thumb I think. My character basically wants to figure out why he has sorcery and understand it. My DM can work that in if he chooses but I also get to discover stuff too if he doesn't.