Coup de grace a death effect?

[Calthropstu]

I came across an issue in my game last week where a party member was killed with a coup de grace from a particularly nasty undead creature. It was reduced to 1hp with instructions of "try to kill at least one of them." It had paralyzed one of the PCs, and had an avenue where it could take a 5 foot step and be unthreatened.

The issue arises from this: I had the life oracle pick up a scroll of breath of life for just such an occasion. She botched the roll and failed to activate it but the issue was raised "would that even work in the first place?"

The rules of a death effect IMPLY, but do not explicitly state, that a coup de grace may be a death effect. I could not find a ruling one way or another, coup de grace is noticeably lacking from the FAQ so ruling either way is warranted.

So how would you all rule it? Does a coup de grace preclude breath of life? I am personally inclined to say yes it does, since a coup de grace could mean anything from having your throat slit to a complete beheading. Same for "death by massive damage."

[Afgncaap5]

I can't find the rules on it, but I've always been under the impression that "death effect" is something that has to be called out as such. Coup de grace is definitely a *similar* effect mechanically, but I don't believe that it matches the "official required fluff" for the rules to work; it isn't an effect that calls upon the powers of death or the undead to directly attack one's life force, it's merely something that damages crucial organs (or something) that a creature physically needs to continue living.

Also I can find a few references to "death effects" being "special abilities" that do this, and I don't know if Coup de Grace really counts as a special ability since I think pretty much anything can attempt to do it. However, these references I found were not in official Pathfinder content, just other people discussing it.

So... I'd vote that Coup de Grace isn't a death effect. It's just in excellent company with them. A death-obsessed figure would do well to have access to both.

[Necroticplague]

The rules of a death effect IMPLY, but do not explicitly state, that a coup de grace may be a death effect. I could not find a ruling one way or another, coup de grace is noticeably lacking from the FAQ so ruling either way is warranted.

So how would you all rule it? Does a coup de grace preclude breath of life? I am personally inclined to say yes it does, since a coup de grace could mean anything from having your throat slit to a complete beheading. Same for "death by massive damage."

Doesn't say a coup de grace is a death effect, ergo, it isn't. If it was a death effect, it would say so (like the bards deadly performance).

[Afgncaap5]

Curiously, it appears that the Assassin's Death Attack is not a death effect either. So, a Death Ward spell might be able to protect you from the necromancer who blasts you with save-or-die death effect spells, but it does nothing to stop the flair of the assassin who waits in the shadows for the wizard to fail. I can live with that.

Or... can I?

[stanprollyright]

I can live with that.

Or... can I?

I think we've established that you can't, even with death ward.

[Calthropstu]

I can't find the rules on it, but I've always been under the impression that "death effect" is something that has to be called out as such. Coup de grace is definitely a *similar* effect mechanically, but I don't believe that it matches the "official required fluff" for the rules to work; it isn't an effect that calls upon the powers of death or the undead to directly attack one's life force, it's merely something that damages crucial organs (or something) that a creature physically needs to continue living.

Also I can find a few references to "death effects" being "special abilities" that do this, and I don't know if Coup de Grace really counts as a special ability since I think pretty much anything can attempt to do it. However, these references I found were not in official Pathfinder content, just other people discussing it.

So... I'd vote that Coup de Grace isn't a death effect. It's just in excellent company with them. A death-obsessed figure would do well to have access to both.

EVERYONE has access to coup de grace.

For the record:

death attacks are on page 562, Coup de grace is located on 197.

Coup de grace fits the description of a death attack, but is not explicitly called out as one.

[Sayt]

Nothing is a death effect unless it says that it is, just like nothing is a mind-effecting affect unless it says that it is.

But doing some extrapolation and analysis on death effects

Coup-de-grace is similar to death effects in that it is a save against dying, however listed death effects are almost entirely spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities which magically induce death, which interferes with low level life restoration spells such as reincarnation, breath of life or raise dead.

The Assassinate Slayer Advanced Talent and Ninja Master Trick, and Assassin's Death attack are all similar effects, but are tagged as (Ex), and like CDG, don't work against creatures which are immune to sneak attacks/critical hits (Although there is a small selection of creatures immune to crits but not sneak attacks, confusingly)

Death effects, on the other hand, work on aeons, oozes, and proteans, which are immune to either Sneak attack, Critical hits, or both.

So I would definitely take away that Death effects and CDGs, while having similar outcomes, are not the same things.

[Afgncaap5]

I think we've established that you can't, even with death ward.

Ah! Quite right. I don't know what came over me.

[stanprollyright]

Ah! Quite right. I don't know what came over me.

Let's hope it wasn't a guy with a scythe

[Geddy2112]

"Death effects" are specific and called such, and do not cover all ways for somebody to die. A coup de grace is just an accelerated way to kill somebody with an attack. Same thing with an assassination effect. Characters can also die from too much damage, such as a fireball or falling off a cliff. Although these can cause death, they are not "death effects". Death effects are generally called out as things that can instantly kill you and almost all of these bypass the mundane ways to kill something.

Otherwise, death ward would be absurdly powerful for the level you get access to it.

[Calthropstu]

Looks like everyone here is in agreement. The argument on the paizo forums was much less conclusive however. Still, even there it seemed 3:1 in favor of BOL working.

[Zanos]

I agree with the forum consensus. [Death] Spells and effects that call out that they're death effects are death effects. Massive damage saves, coup de graces, etc. are not.