How To Kill A Deity

[Bartmanhomer]

I got a question to ask everybody, how do you kill a deity? Also is killing a deity possible or no?

[John Longarrow]

Depends on the DM. Talk to your DM before you start planning to off some poor unsuspecting God.

Course if your the DM they can be killed how ever you wish them to be..

[Kelb_Panthera]

For quasi-deities, demigods, and even -some- lesser deities it's doable, if exceedingly difficult for a non-epic character. Intermediate and greater deities give no craps about mortals attempting to kill them because of the certain failure of such endeavors.

You're looking at, in most cases; 20 outsider HD, 20 levels in a primary caster (usually cleric), and between 10 and 20 levels in another PC class. This is before you even consider their salient divine abilities.

Note the section in the middle column labeled "divine rules" here (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). Those are the rules regarding how gods are built. All of the published deities (save a handful) are as I described in the previous paragraph.

[Venger]

I got a question to ask everybody, how do you kill a deity? Also is killing a deity possible or no?

Just the normal way. If it has stats, you can kill it without much trouble. The only deites you can't kill are ones with no numbers, such as the lady of pain or Ao.

If you're in a game where you just need to kill any deity to suck up some divine rank since it's a finite resource, pick on imhotep, he's a total marshmallow.

If not, it's probably easier to just get a bunch of npcs to worship you.

[Red Fel]

As stated, it depends on how the DM plays the deity.

If the DM plays them as "strong monsters," you can kill them. Fact is, most deities as-statted are horribly unoptimized. If the DM treats them as a bundle of numbers, you can out-number their numbers and crush them. With math.

If, on the other hand, the DM fully utilizes their abilities, you're basically dead from the moment you begin. Deities become aware of anything significant involving their portfolio - that is, the list of terms associated with that deity. (For example, Wee Jas is associated with Death, Magic, Vanity, and Law.) By definition, a deity falls within their own portfolio - that is, anything that would affect the deity would necessarily affect those aspects of reality that the deity governs.

Translation: If you plan to kill the deity, the deity knows. They know the plan, they know you're planning it, they know what it is and when it will happen. At which point you're facing a being, probably within its divine realm (where it is at its strongest), that knows you're coming and is prepared specifically to stop you.

Not only that; you're also facing any deity who has an interest in the continued existence of the deity you're targeting. Deities don't exist in a vacuum. There is lore, there are relationships, there are politics and alliances. A deity's friends won't let it be killed; a deity can call in favors in its own defense. A deity's enemies may not want mere mortals to claim the glory of the kill. Even deities wholly unrelated to the conflict may have an interest in keeping mortals from thinking that they get to kill deities. Anybody could be there.

Long story short: If your DM plays deities like big, dumb monsters, you can potentially kill them the same way you'd kill any other monster. If your DM plays deities smartly, you're dead before you've begun.

Shorter version: Ask your DM.

[Bad Wolf]

Piggybacking off our favourite evil genius up above, some Greater deities are able to see a little bit into the future. So if you came up with a plan to murder Boccob (stupid idea, even among gods), he'd know about four months before you even came up with the idea.

[Inevitability]

There's a couple ways to get around the 'deities can see into the past', though. After all, the time is relative to the deity, not to the attacker.

In other words, if you prepare to kill a god then hop forward in time one year (by an insanely augmented Time Hop or a Teleport Through Time spell), portfolio sense won't be triggered until you're already up in the deity's face. Drop a Celerity followed by some boosted Blasphemy/Holy Word and the god should be dead before they even know what you're planning.

[Echch]

There's a couple ways to get around the 'deities can see into the past', though. After all, the time is relative to the deity, not to the attacker.

In other words, if you prepare to kill a god then hop forward in time one year (by an insanely augmented Time Hop or a Teleport Through Time spell), portfolio sense won't be triggered until you're already up in the deity's face. Drop a Celerity followed by some boosted Blasphemy/Holy Word and the god should be dead before they even know what you're planning.

In addition, what most people forget is that portfolio sense DOESN'T provide sensory information and doesn't tell you who wants to kill you, only what happens and when. What provides sensory information is the Remote Viewing ability... And it doesn't extend into the past or the future, not to mention that it has a hard limit of 20 locations (in addition to the whole worshipper business) it can be used on.
As a matter of fact, a pure RAW view wouldn't even tell the deity that it's the deity that is getting murdered... If you ask "what happens", the answer "a murder" is fully sufficient to satisfy the portfolio sense. If it's the deity of magic, the heightened portfolio sense that stems from more Divine Ranks actually hinders it, as it accounts for the death of every single spellcaster, making it impossible to discern the important ones.

[Keltest]

In addition, what most people forget is that portfolio sense DOESN'T provide sensory information and doesn't tell you who wants to kill you, only what happens and when. What provides sensory information is the Remote Viewing ability... And it doesn't extend into the past or the future, not to mention that it has a hard limit of 20 locations (in addition to the whole worshipper business) it can be used on.
As a matter of fact, a pure RAW view wouldn't even tell the deity that it's the deity that is getting murdered... If you ask "what happens", the answer "a murder" is fully sufficient to satisfy the portfolio sense. If it's the deity of magic, the heightened portfolio sense that stems from more Divine Ranks actually hinders it, as it accounts for the death of every single spellcaster, making it impossible to discern the important ones.

While this may be a technically correct interpretation of things, is there ever going to be a DM who plays it under the least powerful view possible? These are gods. Theyre allowed to have their cake and eat it too when regards to their powers.

[Nifft]

While this may be a technically correct interpretation of things, is there ever going to be a DM who plays it under the least powerful view possible?

Sure, why not?

Across enough games, all things are possible.

This is why it's so important to go and talk to your DM.

[Echch]

While this may be a technically correct interpretation of things, is there ever going to be a DM who plays it under the least powerful view possible?

If said DM wants to:
a) Have a conflict that isn't entirely meaningless.
b) Pay attention to the rules AT ALL (the deity not knowing the object of the murder is negotionable in RAI, Remote Viewing not working across time isn't)
c) Is unwilling to ignore two "canon" instances where is is shown that deities clearly DON'T have all the information regarding their demise.

He'll have to.
It's not like this is the main source of deity-power: The have Wish at-will, can make all magical effects permanent, are immune to basically everything ever (down to individual spells, so the writer really made absolutely sure that he doesn't accidently create good and useable content), cannot be disposed off by non-deities that have a lower rank and cannot fail saves.
Deities are already absolute bull**** and horribly designed enough without giving them Rule 0 support.


These are gods. Theyre allowed to have their cake and eat it too when regards to their powers.

Why? "These are gods" doesn't really cut it, especially since every idiot can bluff an Einherjar into accepting a Fusion to obtain Divine Rank 0. If you want to say that every creature should be allowed to make use of the abilities it has, well, then Remote Viewing STILL doesn't work across time and, as Archer would say:

https://i.imgflip.com/1gj15l.jpg

P.S.: Sorry for being so harsh about this topic. The horrible design that is Deities and Demigods is a pet peeve of mine.

[Doctor Despair]

God Blooded of Vecna is another good way to avoid deities having easy access to knowledge of you, although you have to re-apply that template daily for full effect.

A level 21 straight bard with Music of the Gods can, with enough shenanigans, fascinate, suggest, and (depending on your interpretation of Lyric Spell) cast any mind-affecting arcane spell he or she knows on a god. Even just suggestion could be enough to strip a deity of their divine ranks if it is played well enough as well as feeling satisfying in an RP sense. I enjoy this build because it seems low-op right up until level 21 when suddenly it isn't. This requires some bloodline and inspire greatness shenanigans to get early access to the feat, as well as leadership for an artificer cohort to achieve sufficient charisma.

[Echch]

Hmm... Under that interpretation, a Lyric Spell Geas/Quest might work, as it allows no saves.

[Venger]

Hmm... Under that interpretation, a Lyric Spell Geas/Quest might work, as it allows no saves.

You'd need a way to speed up casting it, but it ought to.

[Doctor Despair]

You'd need a way to speed up casting it, but it ought to.

I mean, Bardic Fascination would work, but I imagine that defeats the point of avoiding saves in the event of a DM ruling that deities auto-pass saves (although I remember reading that the deities as statted in Deities and Demigods don't auto-pass saves necessarily, but do receive a numerical 20 in place of their rolls in the same way players can take 10 in some instances).

The spell Pacification might substitute for fascination here, but only using some sort of caster-level cheese. Still, the wording is too vague for us to be confident they would sit still for our Geas.

Rapid Spell with a reducer would reduce the cast-time to 10 rounds, which doesn't help us much.

Uncanny Forethought shenanigans don't seem to be able to easily apply here at first glance(and would require multiclassing that otherwise ruins the elegant simplicity of Bard 21), but... as I look at it, Lyric Spell doesn't specify that the spell *must* be cast spontaneously, but rather than it must be a spell you *can* cast spontaneously...

So a 7th level bard, using the 3 bloodline levels to raise their max skill rank cap, could go into Sublime Chord 3 to get access to Geas/quest spontaneously. Then, taking 11 levels in wizard, we hit a theoretical point where this character has access to Geas/quest as a prepared arcane spell. Then, Uncanny Forethought lets us cast it in one turn, expending bardic music via Lyric Spell to proc Music of the Gods and Geas a deity in a full-round action to yield their divine ranks and generally render themselves harmless to you. I'm sure there's a more cheese-heavy method that could get you access to Geas as a spontaneous spell or as a prepared spell without all the hassle of going into wizard for 11 levels, but this is fine as a proof of concept to auto-defeat any one enemy that can understand your language. Requiem, Speak to X abilities, Joyful Noise, etc circumvents a lot of the danger of not sharing a language with the deity in question.

Personally, I still prefer pumping charisma to ungodly levels via an artificer cohort using Item Alteration on various charisma enhancing gear, fascinating, and phrasing a suggestion very carefully and subtly. I'd imagine the sort of DM to hand-wave away any chance of a deity failing a will save *ever* is the sort that would get a little uppity at the idea of you ever using a no-save spell like Geas on one. :p Besides, going bard 21 allows for the character to go completely under the radar for deities, portfolio sense or not. In fact, iirc the flavor for high performance checks implies that deities begin to actively *seek you out* to get you to perform for them. Doesn't get much easier than that. ;)

[John Longarrow]

To me, there is a humor to this thread due to the glaring omission on the part of most posters regarding how powerful a character would actually need to be to take on a deity and how few individuals in a world would have that level of power. Posters also assume that deities don't know what could be used to attack them and already take steps to prevent such actions.

If there are 100 PC/NPCs on a world with the ability to challenge a deity then all 100 would be monitored by deities to make sure they are not doing such. If any of them starts doing the prep required to attack a deity, then all deities would take steps to avoid being the target. This doesn't mean they will have the PC/NPC killed, it just means they will do enough to figure out what said PC/NPC COULD do and take steps to avoid being targeted.

First would be to prevent said powerful being from showing up where the deity could be attacked. With the amount of time deities have to prepare they should already have defenses against most anything that could be thought up. This leaves intentional holes in their defenses as the only viable way to attack. That would normally mean intervention by someone of similar power who has a reason for wanting said deity to be killed. Hence the statement “Check with your DM”.

Second would be the readied defense if you do show up. With the kinds of spells available it is entirely reasonable that anyone showing up uninvited will immediately be hit by dozens (or hundreds) of readied actions.

Third would be the number of potential counter-casters who are waiting around just in case something survives long enough to cast.

Fourth and on would be the redundant levels of similar protections...

None of this includes passive defenses (walls of force, walls of magma, what ever) that pop up when someone uninvited shows up in Zeus's bedroom uninvited.

In a normal game about the only way the PCs SHOULD be involved with killing a deity is if the DM plans for it. If the DM decides the story will require Lolth (or who ever) to be hit while they are otherwise occupied, go for it. If the Players decide they want to go God hunting without making sure the DM is OK with it, expect that your best laid plans will be squashed really quickly.

Red Fel pointed out the other piece that is very relevant. If you are trying to attack one deity, normally there are a bunch of others who have no desire to let you succeed. Means you wind up not fighting them one at a time when you have had a chance to prepare.

[Echch]

I mean, Bardic Fascination would work, but I imagine that defeats the point of avoiding saves in the event of a DM ruling that deities auto-pass saves (although I remember reading that the deities as statted in Deities and Demigods don't auto-pass saves necessarily, but do receive a numerical 20 in place of their rolls in the same way players can take 10 in some instances).


This is what's listed under checks... even if it's irrelevant because "Always Maximize Roll" already tells you that it should be considered to be a rolled 20 and even implies that all effects take place as normal save for a critical threat by specifying that threats should still be checked with an actual additional roll.


To me, there is a humor to this thread due to the glaring omission on the part of most posters regarding how powerful a character would actually need to be to take on a deity and how few individuals in a world would have that level of power.

Given the fact that Celestia is infinite and every Solar is capable of fullcasting, the amount of "few individuals" is infinite.


Posters also assume that deities don't know what could be used to attack them and already take steps to prevent such actions.

Yes, that is because they neither necessarily know (because they simply aren't omniscient) nor necessarily have the ability to block said mode of attack (Angelwing Razor comes to mind). These deities aren't inspired by the monotheistic power-fantasy, they are inspired by the deities from belief-systems featuring multiple gods and said interactions, meaning they have stories where interactions occur, which would be freaking boring if they were some sort of all-knowing Hive-Mind.



If there are 100 PC/NPCs on a world with the ability to challenge a deity then all 100 would be monitored by deities to make sure they are not doing such.

Well, good for the gods there are only 100, because looking at most pantheons in the book it wouldn't take too many more to burst the limit of things they are actually capable of observing. Remote Viewing has a limit.


If any of them starts doing the prep required to attack a deity, then all deities would take steps to avoid being the target. This doesn't mean they will have the PC/NPC killed, it just means they will do enough to figure out what said PC/NPC COULD do and take steps to avoid being targeted.

So... We now have the questions of "What involves deicide-prepwork and how can it be distinguished from anti-spellcaster prepwork?", "Since when are all deities across all alignments allied, Tharizdun and similar nutcases included?" and "In what rulebook do Knowledge-checks allow you to check all timelines in advance?" None of which are answered.


First would be to prevent said powerful being from showing up where the deity could be attacked. With the amount of time deities have to prepare they should already have defenses against most anything that could be thought up. This leaves intentional holes in their defenses as the only viable way to attack. That would normally mean intervention by someone of similar power who has a reason for wanting said deity to be killed. Hence the statement “Check with your DM”.

Alternatively, you just cast "Wish", because getting moved to a location (not "teleported") whilst ignoring local conditions is one of it's actual, listed features.


Second would be the readied defense if you do show up. With the kinds of spells available it is entirely reasonable that anyone showing up uninvited will immediately be hit by dozens (or hundreds) of readied actions.

Third would be the number of potential counter-casters who are waiting around just in case something survives long enough to cast.

Fourth and on would be the redundant levels of similar protections...

None of this includes passive defenses (walls of force, walls of magma, what ever) that pop up when someone uninvited shows up in Zeus's bedroom uninvited.

So this is basically contingency wars 101. Everything that needs to be said about it has been said before, and everything that has been said about it can be googled. Now for my counterargument of why this wouldn't be the case: Because no deity would bother. Killing a deity is nice and all, but it isn't much of an achievement because you cannot keep them down either way. Unless you have a higher Divine Rank, they simply reform a bit later and you cannot stop them from reforming because they are immune to everything that would stop them from doing so via hilariously specific immunities.


In a normal game about the only way the PCs SHOULD be involved with killing a deity is if the DM plans for it. If the DM decides the story will require Lolth (or who ever) to be hit while they are otherwise occupied, go for it. If the Players decide they want to go God hunting without making sure the DM is OK with it, expect that your best laid plans will be squashed really quickly.

You know, I actually read that about four times. I was kinda taken by surprise when I fully understood that this needs to be said again: Railroading is NOT good DM practice. It seems to be a major misconception in this thread that deities are something other than a statblock any more than the Tarrasque is, albeit with more impressive numbers. If it isn't meant to be part of the adventure, instead of trying to screw your players over for taking a look at it, just don't include it. Clerics don't need deities and Pathfinders Mythic system removed any fluff-based need for them. If you don't want deities to be an explorable part of your session, just don't put them in your session, as they never had a purpose in D&D that couldn't be handled by a regular Outsider anyway.


Red Fel pointed out the other piece that is very relevant. If you are trying to attack one deity, normally there are a bunch of others who have no desire to let you succeed. Means you wind up not fighting them one at a time when you have had a chance to prepare.

Yes, because all deities are best pals forever. Who could forget the heartwarming tale of friendship and love between Cyric, Shar and Mystra, the lead cause of the Spellplague?

[Doctor Despair]

To me, there is a humor to this thread due to the glaring omission on the part of most posters regarding how powerful a character would actually need to be to take on a deity and how few individuals in a world would have that level of power



How many PCs are in a world at a given time, and how many reach epic levels?




Posters also assume that deities don't know what could be used to attack them and already take steps to prevent such actions.



I am very on board with this theory, since it prevents Pun Pun. However, I would suggest that it is a narrow line to walk -- do all deities smite every kobold? Or just every kobold that takes the given class? In the case of Divinity By Music, do the deities smite every bard? Every bard whose perform reaches a certain point? Is that lawful or good? Would the lawful or good deities prevent other deities from doing that?

It seems too erratic to say deities smite everything dangerous, or else PCs have to become less heroic and more fearful with every level just in case they hit some unknowable threshold of power or else take God Blooded of Vecna every day to prevent deities from getting wise.

I do think that deities should certainly have preventative measures for most any attack on them. That's partially why I favor the Bard 20/Epic Bard 1 build; it is unassuming. Perform specifies that extra planar beings may become patrons of performers who can hit a DC of 30. With proper itemization, bards can pass 100 with ease. Certainly any god would *want* to hear such music, but would they dare?

If ever there was a character that they would think was worth the risk, it would certainly be the straight bard. Clearly such a character isn't power-hungry enough to attempt such an audacious act, or else they would have just dipped bard and gone into Sublime Chord or some other full casting class. Such a bard need not even plan for this, since there's no way to speed up the process, so the portfolio sense or any divination should only yield a devoted performer until, in the moment, they decide to do it because they are chaotic by requirement.






If there are 100 PC/NPCs on a world with the ability to challenge a deity then all 100 would be monitored by deities to make sure they are not doing such. If any of them starts doing the prep required to attack a deity, then all deities would take steps to avoid being the target. This doesn't mean they will have the PC/NPC killed, it just means they will do enough to figure out what said PC/NPC COULD do and take steps to avoid being targeted.



As said above, this is part of the elegance of this technique; it includes a method to lure any deities out. Perhaps the Bard doesn't even pull the trigger the first or the second time, giving a false sense of security to any deities. Is there a way to know if a character has a specific feat, since they technically don't exist in the game? Would portfolio sense even yield the knowledge that one has the Music of the Gods feat? Regardless, it's a temptation for any deity.





...
If the Players decide they want to go God hunting without making sure the DM is OK with it, expect that your best laid plans will be squashed really quickly.

Red Fel pointed out the other piece that is very relevant. If you are trying to attack one deity, normally there are a bunch of others who have no desire to let you succeed. Means you wind up not fighting them one at a time when you have had a chance to prepare




As for multiple deities showing up... This bardic technique works on multiple deities as well, since bardic Greater Suggestion does, so that should be fine. Once you have the ranks, you should be able to even more effectively talk your way out of the situation. You're a bard; do bard things. :P

I do think that players should check with their DM first for politeness' sake before pulling Shenanigans with a capital S, since rocks falling bypasses even the strongest divine ranks. However, the point I'm proving is that it *could* work without homebrewing, going infinite with some arbitrarily recursive cheese (Kobold-related or otherwise), or waiting until some arbitrarily high level to out-stat them.

[John Longarrow]

Echch,

DM not letting the players just kill the gods of their world isn't railroading. DM saying "I'm not running a game for god killers / deities" isn't railroading. Its the DM running a game they enjoy.

P.S. glad you pointed out how "Celestia is infinite and every Solar is capable of fullcasting, the amount of "few individuals" is infinite." That would make it a lot easier for said deities to have subordinate beings to keep track of mortals so they themselves don't have to. It would be up there with how Hades helped the other Gods in overthrowing the Titans as support for how hard it SHOULD be for a PC to kill a God. They may not like each other and may each try to overthrow the others, but none would want some pesky mortal to get in the way (barring something massive like a more powerful God making said Gods mortal again) of their superiority.

Once more, check with the DM. Would HATE to hear your succeed in killing a god only to have the DM tell you "OK, that was fun. This game's over" when that's not what you wanted.

[Bohandas]

Relevant tidbit: A +4 Bane weapon of the appropriate type will bypass DR/epic because it has a +6 enhancement bonus against it's attuned target type; this despite the fact that it only costs as much as a regular non-epic +5 weapon. If the target has two subtypes it can be done with the equivalent of a +4 weapon by adding 2 bane properties to a +2 weapon

[stanprollyright]

Relevant tidbit: A +4 Bane weapon of the appropriate type will bypass DR/epic because it has a +6 enhancement bonus against it's attuned target type; this despite the fact that it only costs as much as a regular non-epic +5 weapon. If the target has two subtypes it can be done with the equivalent of a +4 weapon by adding 2 bane properties to a +2 weapon

Is there such thing as a Deity-bane weapon? Seems like a pretty big oversight for the deity of weapon enchants.

[Bohandas]

Is there such thing as a Deity-bane weapon? Seems like a pretty big oversight for the deity of weapon enchants.

Most are outsiders with alignment subtypes, so vulnerable to the appropriate bane

[Doctor Despair]

This is what's listed under checks... even if it's irrelevant because "Always Maximize Roll" already tells you that it should be considered to be a rolled 20 and even implies that all effects take place as normal save for a critical threat by specifying that threats should still be checked with an actual additional roll.


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, so I'll explain it either for you or, if you already agree, then for the casual reader that wants to know why deities don't get nat 20s on everything. The relevant text reads:

Always Maximize Roll: Greater deities(rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. For instance, when a greater deity makes an attack roll, assume you rolled a 20 and calculate success or failure from there. You should roll the d20 anyway and use that roll to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

Saving Throws: A deity's outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws. Deities of rank 1 or higher to not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.

They get the best possible result, but you then calculate success, failure, or other effects. So far I'd say it could be interpreted either way, but that you can fail at all suggests immediately to me that it should not be treated as a natural 20 since failure would then be impossible -- but maybe there's a feat that makes you immune to nat 20s somehow, so let's assume they're writing with that in mind. Then, it says we assume they rolled a 20 and then acually roll a die to see if they threaten a critical hit. This is another key piece of text for me -- if we assumed it was a nat 20, they would already threaten a critical hit and we would be rolling to confirm. Instead, we are rolling to see if they even threaten one. These two pieces of the text imply that greater deities *can* fail saving throws and fail to break AC, but only by coming up against exceedingly high numbers since they cannot fail on a nat 1.


Everything else


Totally on board with you for all that, friend, alTHOUGH deities can certainly break "wish economy" by abusing it to stop mortal wishes in that way. Since they have infinite wishes, they can undo any negative consequences of wishes gone awry until they get their intended consequence, so it's safe to assume that a sufficiently motivated deity with enough time on their hands (I think the number of wishes they have is gated by time, but they can do more and become exhausted? I briefly took part in a deific campaign where PCs became gods, but I think I may be conflating that with a different divine salient ability related to changing realms) could set up some pretty effective safeguards against scry-and-die tactics.


Echch,

DM not letting the players just kill the gods of their world isn't railroading. DM saying "I'm not running a game for god killers / deities" isn't railroading. Its the DM running a game they enjoy.

P.S. glad you pointed out how "Celestia is infinite and every Solar is capable of fullcasting, the amount of "few individuals" is infinite." That would make it a lot easier for said deities to have subordinate beings to keep track of mortals so they themselves don't have to. It would be up there with how Hades helped the other Gods in overthrowing the Titans as support for how hard it SHOULD be for a PC to kill a God. They may not like each other and may each try to overthrow the others, but none would want some pesky mortal to get in the way (barring something massive like a more powerful God making said Gods mortal again) of their superiority.

Once more, check with the DM. Would HATE to hear your succeed in killing a god only to have the DM tell you "OK, that was fun. This game's over" when that's not what you wanted.

John, I'm certainly on board with you that the DM should have an element of choice in how the campaign goes, but remember that there is no campaign without the players. Once players start getting into epic levels, conflicts with deities gets put on the table. There is a difference between making deities exceedingly difficult to kill and giving them plot-armor if they exist in your world. If the players have this as their character goals and you, as the DM, say "no, that's stupid, you can't do that", then you are railroading. If you say "Well, that's *exceedingly difficult* and will require a lot of prep-work, but let's see what happens," that's another matter. I'd agree that it isn't railroading to smite PunPun as a leak from the Tippyverse if you aren't playing at Tippy's table, though; that's just good sport.

However, I do think we're getting away from the question of "Can you kill a deity? How?" that OP asked and moving towards "Should you kill a deity?" which has been sufficiently answered with a resounding "Ask your DM if that's cool first, but sure."


Is there such thing as a Deity-bane weapon? Seems like a pretty big oversight for the deity of weapon enchants.

I don't think there is technically what you're asking for (unless it's a specifically named epic weapon), but you can spitball at it in general by taking a +4 weapon and adding Bane of Outsiders (good) and Bane of Outsiders (evil) since I think a majority of deities have one of those two? A cursory glance over Deities and Demigods didn't yield a single one that didn't have one, though I'm certain there are some neutrals or unlisteds in there somewhere.

[John Longarrow]

Dr. You've read me right. Its an "Ask the DM" question like I first posted. If the DM isn't cool with it then its just not going to happen. If the DM is, then go through all the planning.

[Bohandas]

The Epic Level Dungeon Magazine adventure "Quicksilver Hourglass" involved fighting a deity

[stanprollyright]

Tangent: in DnD, death clearly isn't the end of existence. What happens to a deity's soul when they die? Does it go to the same plane/afterlife as their mortal worshippers? Or is it just destroyed? Do deities even have souls? Or is that deity's personality and experience combined into yours when you assume their portfolio?

My favorite version: when you kill a deity you assume their portfolio and place in the pantheon for all eternity, including before your ascension. The deity takes your place as a mortal. Trading Places: Divine Edition.

[Inevitability]

Tangent: in DnD, death clearly isn't the end of existence. What happens to a deity's soul when they die? Does it go to the same plane/afterlife as their mortal worshippers? Or is it just destroyed? Do deities even have souls? Or is that deity's personality and experience combined into yours when you assume their portfolio?

I believe a fair amount of slain deities have become vestiges.

[Echch]

Echch,

DM not letting the players just kill the gods of their world isn't railroading. DM saying "I'm not running a game for god killers / deities" isn't railroading. Its the DM running a game they enjoy.

Well, that I actually agree with. Not all games have to be true sandboxes and imposing such limits is clearly in the DM's right. However, such things should be stated before the campaign begins, not in the middle of it. When the DM sets up options to be automatic failures, no matter the roll or given cirumstances.


P.S. glad you pointed out how "Celestia is infinite and every Solar is capable of fullcasting, the amount of "few individuals" is infinite." That would make it a lot easier for said deities to have subordinate beings to keep track of mortals so they themselves don't have to. It would be up there with how Hades helped the other Gods in overthrowing the Titans as support for how hard it SHOULD be for a PC to kill a God. They may not like each other and may each try to overthrow the others, but none would want some pesky mortal to get in the way (barring something massive like a more powerful God making said Gods mortal again) of their superiority.

Sure, but the problem is that said subordinates lack the Remote Viewing ability. The only possible substitution that defeats Mind Blank and the other spells would be Metafaculty, which comes with a 1000 XP price-tag per use.


Once more, check with the DM. Would HATE to hear your succeed in killing a god only to have the DM tell you "OK, that was fun. This game's over" when that's not what you wanted.

Surprisingly enough, this once happened. Our DM wanted to show us the big bad of the epic-level campaign (Tiamat), I rolled a 20 with my Vorpal weapon and the DM decides that the instant death from loosing one's head is a magical effect of the Vorpal Weapon instead of the normal death from... Well, not having a head. So Tiamat died instantly despite having 4 heads left and the campaign was over.


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, so I'll explain it either for you or, if you already agree, then for the casual reader that wants to know why deities don't get nat 20s on everything. The relevant text reads:

Always Maximize Roll: Greater deities(rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. For instance, when a greater deity makes an attack roll, assume you rolled a 20 and calculate success or failure from there. You should roll the d20 anyway and use that roll to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

Saving Throws: A deity's outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws. Deities of rank 1 or higher to not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.

They get the best possible result, but you then calculate success, failure, or other effects. So far I'd say it could be interpreted either way, but that you can fail at all suggests immediately to me that it should not be treated as a natural 20 since failure would then be impossible -- but maybe there's a feat that makes you immune to nat 20s somehow, so let's assume they're writing with that in mind. Then, it says we assume they rolled a 20 and then acually roll a die to see if they threaten a critical hit. This is another key piece of text for me -- if we assumed it was a nat 20, they would already threaten a critical hit and we would be rolling to confirm. Instead, we are rolling to see if they even threaten one. These two pieces of the text imply that greater deities *can* fail saving throws and fail to break AC, but only by coming up against exceedingly high numbers since they cannot fail on a nat 1.

I disagree with that viewpoint. To me, calculating success accordingly means that you treat the result as if the number 20 was rolled. In case of a natural 20, failing a check is still very much possible, failing a saving throw or attack roll is impossible and it had never been possible to succeed or fail on a damage roll either way, meaning that even by your interpretation, there was always a situation where failure/success was impossible: The damage rolls.
A feat that makes you immune to nat 20s... I know a spell, but that only turns your own 20s into 1s... Anyway, the second key piece is what suggests to me the fact that a natural 20 would have the effects of a regular 20, as it says you should roll the dice for a critical threat (and ONLY for a critical threat) "anyway". The "anyway" suggests to me that the effect would have occured if it weren't for this ruling. Furthermore, the critical threat is a specific exeption. It still doesn't say that you should roll anyway for automatic success or failure on an attack roll or saving throw. It even seems to assume that you hit automatically (as per a natural 20), since it directly says that you should roll for a critical threat, something that you only do if you've already hit, which isn't a given if you don't roll a natural 20.
As such, the first key-piece tells me that a deity calculates skill-checks normally after the 20, as a natural 20 on a skill check does either confirm nor deny success or failure and the second key-piece tells me that the critical threat is a specific exception to the rule as per this specific ability.




Totally on board with you for all that, friend, alTHOUGH deities can certainly break "wish economy" by abusing it to stop mortal wishes in that way. Since they have infinite wishes, they can undo any negative consequences of wishes gone awry until they get their intended consequence, so it's safe to assume that a sufficiently motivated deity with enough time on their hands (I think the number of wishes they have is gated by time, but they can do more and become exhausted? I briefly took part in a deific campaign where PCs became gods, but I think I may be conflating that with a different divine salient ability related to changing realms) could set up some pretty effective safeguards against scry-and-die tactics.

I'm not aware to a hard counter for Wish-Transportation and Metafaculty. Everything else I can see pretty easily, but I believe these two are the "Mage's Disjunction" of Scry-and-Die.

[Keral]

You'd need a way to speed up casting it, but it ought to.

Uh, tecnically a Dragon fire adept casts it as a standard action. Would that work to force a god to give you some divine ranks? =O

[Venger]

Uh, tecnically a Dragon fire adept casts it as a standard action. Would that work to force a god to give you some divine ranks? =O

They cast it as a sla though, so it's not a bardic music effect for the purposes of all the things being stacked on it.

[Keral]

They cast it as a sla though, so it's not a bardic music effect for the purposes of all the things being stacked on it.

Ah, I missed the bit about needing music of the gods on it. Reading comprehension fail on my part XD

[Doctor Despair]

I disagree with that viewpoint. To me, calculating success accordingly means that you treat the result as if the number 20 was rolled. In case of a natural 20, failing a check is still very much possible, failing a saving throw or attack roll is impossible and it had never been possible to succeed or fail on a damage roll either way, meaning that even by your interpretation, there was always a situation where failure/success was impossible: The damage rolls...

... Anyway, the second key piece is what suggests to me the fact that a natural 20 would have the effects of a regular 20, as it says you should roll the dice for a critical threat (and ONLY for a critical threat) "anyway". The "anyway" suggests to me that the effect would have occured if it weren't for this ruling. Furthermore, the critical threat is a specific exeption. It still doesn't say that you should roll anyway for automatic success or failure on an attack roll or saving throw. It even seems to assume that you hit automatically (as per a natural 20), since it directly says that you should roll for a critical threat, something that you only do if you've already hit, which isn't a given if you don't roll a natural 20.

It specifically calls out attack rolls and says that you assume that the roll was a 20, and then calculate success or failure from there. You cannot fail an attack roll with a natural 20, whether or not damage is dealt. The text then goes on to describe that you should roll anyway to see if a critical threat occurs because, if a theoretical character's AC was higher than the deities maximum attack bonus plus 20, the only way the deity could even hit the person would be to roll a natural 20 and automatically hit. There is a very clear statement that a maximized attack roll can fail; the elements surrounding the critical threat are just explaining how one should even roll attacks or saves for deities rather than implying they are always a success. This leaves us with a clear distinction between a maximized roll and a natural 20 as well as a precedent for how to approach saves -- add 20 to the save to see if it is even possible for the deity to fail, then roll a d20 to see if there is an automatic success on the saving throw.

The strictest reading possible has us with a clause saying that "any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll" can fail (which at this point is ambiguous because skill checks can fail with either reading), then an explanation of how attack rolls, when made with a maximized roll, can fail and how you should still roll a d20 to see if you get a natural 20 (or another value in an expanded range due to feats, class features, etc) to threaten a critical success (therefore confirming that the first part of the paragraph applies to more than just skillchecks). Without any other writing telling us to treat maximized rolls as natural 20s, it doesn't seem like we should do so, especially since we don't have a concrete example given to us of a deity being assumed to have gotten a natural 20 in the section. I don't think it is fair to read the first halves of two sentences in the paragraph ("always get the best result possible" and "assume you rolled a 20" respectively) and ignore the rest of the paragraph.




I'm not aware to a hard counter for Wish-Transportation and Metafaculty. Everything else I can see pretty easily, but I believe these two are the "Mage's Disjunction" of Scry-and-Die.

I was implying that deities can abuse wishes that are greater but dangerous in effect with more impunity than mortals, since their divinity shields them from much of the risk and they can more or less ignore the XP/gold drain to continue to use wishes until their desired "greater" effect is achieved. However, whether deities do that, if wish works that way, etc. is up to DM fiat, so that point is more to say that DMs could make approaching a deity more difficult than just wishing you were by the deity without homebrewing, even though that transportation effect is spelled out in the use of Wish.

Edit: As for a hard counter to Metafaculty, you can counter that with combinations of God Blooded of Vecna (no person knows to use it on you) and by collaborating with Chorranathau or Morlicantha such that you and your actions are crucial and innate to one of their future move to advance their position in the Xorvintaal game (no effects can yield information regarding their planned/future actions, so a crafty planner can keep their own information shrouded).

[Echch]

It specifically calls out attack rolls and says that you assume that the roll was a 20, and then calculate success or failure from there. You cannot fail an attack roll with a natural 20, whether or not damage is dealt. The text then goes on to describe that you should roll anyway to see if a critical threat occurs because, if a theoretical character's AC was higher than the deities maximum attack bonus plus 20, the only way the deity could even hit the person would be to roll a natural 20 and automatically hit. There is a very clear statement that a maximized attack roll can fail; the elements surrounding the critical threat are just explaining how one should even roll attacks or saves for deities rather than implying they are always a success.

What? Where? The problem is that in the example, the d20 is rolled to look for a threat even if the target isn't being hit at all, which seems weird to me.
The way I see it, you say that the ability says that every given roll must be able to either succeed or fail. However, for that interpretation to be true, it means that there can be no roll that, no matter what is rolled, doesn't count as success or failure, which isn't true because it also includes damage rolls.


This leaves us with a clear distinction between a maximized roll and a natural 20 as well as a precedent for how to approach saves -- add 20 to the save to see if it is even possible for the deity to fail, then roll a d20 to see if there is an automatic success on the saving throw.

There is no distiction made. This would be understandable if it said that there should be a D20 roll to see if an automatic hit occurs, but it talks about the threat instead. The ability even says that that threat roll is made instead of the actual attack roll to try to hit.

The next thing I'm gonna do piece by piece.


The strictest reading possible has us with a clause saying that "any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll" can fail (which at this point is ambiguous because skill checks can fail with either reading),

As such, we already have an example of why the strictest possible reading doesn't make sense: There is no way for a damage roll to "fail". Heck, even if you manage to hit a negative number, it isn't a fail because you still get to deal damage.


then an explanation of how attack rolls, when made with a maximized roll, can fail and how you should still roll a d20 to see if you get a natural 20 (or another value in an expanded range due to feats, class features, etc) to threaten a critical success

Then why doesn't it say to roll the d20 for the attack roll instead of a critical threat?


(therefore confirming that the first part of the paragraph applies to more than just skillchecks).

Why? Where does this come from? See, even if we say that a natural 20 MUST be able to fail, (which isn't suggested: If I am asked to calculate the chance of 1+1 not being equal to 2 in the natural numbers, I would say it's 0% and move on), then it can still fail via Bestow Curse (turning natural 20s into 1s, as per the BoVD) or Miss Chance/Concealment.



Without any other writing telling us to treat maximized rolls as natural 20s, it doesn't seem like we should do so, especially since we don't have a concrete example given to us of a deity being assumed to have gotten a natural 20 in the section.

Okay, so I actually pulled up the definition of a natural 20: The d20 comes up 20. And the ability says to assume that you rolled a 20. If you rolled a 20, then the d20 must have come up as a 20, as you wouldn't have rolled a 20 if the d20 didn't come up as a 20.



I don't think it is fair to read the first halves of two sentences in the paragraph ("always get the best result possible" and "assume you rolled a 20" respectively) and ignore the rest of the paragraph.

Well, aside from the fact that I firmly believe it's best if the entire book is ignored at all tables (and the SRD portion of it... Can we just appreciate that this awfully designed ability is in the SRD? *starts foaming with rage*:smallfurious:), we aren't actually ignoring the rest as much as we combine it with the rules found in the Attack Roll section. The fact that success is guaranteed doesn't mean it cannot be calculated... It's just 100%. This doesn't make much too much sense, but since this ability went out of it's way to rewrite crit threats, but leave Vorpal intact with it and... if I use your interpretation, why should I roll a d20 for a critical threat even if the attack roll failed?

:smallsigh: Okay, to be 100% serious, despite personally not interpreting it this way, I can see why you would view it this way. It's pretty unclear either way.

This ability is weird. Scratch that. Have you read Deities and Demigods? The entire BOOK is weird. It is so bizzare that a book published officially by WotC apparently had writers on it that never even touched a tabletop game before. Call of Cthulhu has more appropriate player vs god "combat", and you are supposed to go in with the expectation to be killed in that game. It is hands down the worst 3.5 WotC book, heck I'm even saying that it's the worst 3.5 book of all of them, and I have read BoVD, BoED, BoEF and the Immortals Handbook.
Heck, I have read the FATAL-"Handbook", one of the wierdest known game systems, and it's still more logical and coherent than the absolute piece of utter **** that is Deities and Demigods, and FATAL has rules for... Things.
I cannot believe they printed this. Why the hell would they print this? Everytime I read the rules from that book, that absolute utter... UGH, I am just short of getting off my ass, going to Change.org or Avaaz or some of the other platforms I'm on and start a petition to demand an official apology from WotC for printing this piece of garbage. I mean, what the hell? They should know better, they've written many books (granted, some with weird and unbalanced stuff, like Aleax and Ice Assassins, but nothing that comes even close to Deities and Demigods) that show they DO know better. They did this better in 1st ed and 5th ed, Paizo didn't exactly do it better, but they were just short of it, so how is this book a thing?


I was implying that deities can abuse wishes that are greater but dangerous in effect with more impunity than mortals, since their divinity shields them from much of the risk and they can more or less ignore the XP/gold drain to continue to use wishes until their desired "greater" effect is achieved. However, whether deities do that, if wish works that way, etc. is up to DM fiat, so that point is more to say that DMs could make approaching a deity more difficult than just wishing you were by the deity without homebrewing, even though that transportation effect is spelled out in the use of Wish.

Yeah, if the DM doesn't want it to work, Wish is a pretty solid explaination. I think this was even done tongue-in-cheek with a Lich Queen once.


Edit: As for a hard counter to Metafaculty, you can counter that with combinations of God Blooded of Vecna (no person knows to use it on you) and by collaborating with Chorranathau or Morlicantha such that you and your actions are crucial and innate to one of their future move to advance their position in the Xorvintaal game (no effects can yield information regarding their planned/future actions, so a crafty planner can keep their own information shrouded).

Hmm... I'm not sure the ability needs to be on you, so I'm not 100% on Xorvintaal countering it. But Vecna-Blooded does work, because it will erase the memories, preventing the use, even if it cannot actually prevent the effect if used. Maybe with a Greater Doppleganger's ability to immitate abilities...

[Ieagleroar]

Check out 'Stealing Immortality' by CaptianZM at Funny DnD Stories. Some good ideas and funny as hell.

[Vaz]

Just the normal way. If it has stats, you can kill it without much trouble. The only deites you can't kill are ones with no numbers, such as the lady of pain or Ao.

Short of being Epic or getting something else to do it for you, I always wonder what kind of character can kill a capable god. Not one of nonesense ones like Imhotep or that Cityscape one.

It gets bandied about so much the bolded bit but i've yet to see anything that you can go 'Simples' to killing a god.

[Inevitability]

Short of being Epic or getting something else to do it for you, I always wonder what kind of character can kill a capable god. Not one of nonesense ones like Imhotep or that Cityscape one.

It gets bandied about so much the bolded bit but i've yet to see anything that you can go 'Simples' to killing a god.

Plane Shift to someplace you know the deity will be after a certain amount of time.
Teleport Through Time to get past portfolio sense.
Celerity because extra actions rule.
CL 150 supernatural Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

[Zale]

Tangent: in DnD, death clearly isn't the end of existence. What happens to a deity's soul when they die? Does it go to the same plane/afterlife as their mortal worshippers? Or is it just destroyed? Do deities even have souls? Or is that deity's personality and experience combined into yours when you assume their portfolio?

My favorite version: when you kill a deity you assume their portfolio and place in the pantheon for all eternity, including before your ascension. The deity takes your place as a mortal. Trading Places: Divine Edition.

Gods that are outsiders lack a dual nature, as their soul is their body. So killing them is kind of destroying their soul; as I recall they would sort of merge with their home plane.

@OP

Killing a god will mostly revolve around convincing your DM that you can kill the god in question. By that I mean, you have to convince them that you've put enough effort in that you deserve it.

Of course, a lot of DMs will just have all deities operate purely on fiat because they feel it necessary for gods to be basically omnipotent.

I personally think that's super boring; dislike the idea of there being anything in the game that's completely ungoverned by rules.

I mean, from the perspective of unkillable omnipotent gods, the main problem with the Demigods and Deities rule-set is that it decided to treat the gods as creatures when it probably should have treated them like the Elder Evils- Phenomena that happen to people and events that have to be staved off, rather than as beings you fight.

I'd prefer that over arbitrary rulings via the DM, but that's mostly because I view the rules as a social contract that delineates the powers of all players involved.

[Echch]

Plane Shift to someplace you know the deity will be after a certain amount of time.
Teleport Through Time to get past portfolio sense.
Celerity because extra actions rule.
CL 150 supernatural Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

This actually begs the question: Won't portfolio sense only trigger if you actually manage to kill the deity at that point in time? After all, only attempting to kill the deity wouldn't really disrupt the portfolio, right?

[lichbolado12]

The true evil is approaching...
The end of time, The magic schools and Towers are being annihilated, Magocracy is under attack. Is your tower prepared?
The true sorcerer king is claiming his throne!
"Worms, you usurped with your false magic. I am the magic, kneel or die!"

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8c/56/e2/8c56e2eeb207eab79d3a2d1ba5d05e7e.jpg

What you will be Wizandry Defenses?


No infinite loop, Artifact or Epic Level Handbook. All official and Licensed book is allowed

Practical Optimization:
No infinite loops
Max 1 summon while combat(Gate, Planar Ally, Ice Assassin or Similar)
Allowed Familiar, Druid Animal Companion or Similar
No Optimized Summon or Ally


Black Scar CR 20
HP 814 (20 HD)
Male fey Marshal 1/ Divine Stalwart Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ /Zhentarim Skymage 3
LE Large Fey (Evil, Dragonblooded); Master of the Hunt Body(MM V.202)
Init +168;
AC 173, touch 132, flat-footed Never;
Immune electricity, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting
spells and abilities
Fort +178, Ref +188, Will +196
Speed 210 ft fly, 490 ft(Dragon)
Melee +5 Ego Glaive(non metal/Quintessence) +178/+173/+168/+165 (6d8+52/19–20×3) (Touch Attack)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 30 ft.

Special Actions Supernatural Spell 4/day, Dexterity Aura, Divine Companion, Domain Acess, Draconic Spell-like, Fly Mount(Greater Wyrm Steel Dragon), Enigma Aura, Blood Component, Tainted Supression, Tainted Metamagic, Tainted Spellcasting, Arcane Sight, Hidden Spell, Share Spell.



Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 60th)(DC 140+ Spell level): Knowstones to acess new spells
9th—Wish, Ice Assassin, Shapechange, Invoke Magic, Imprisonment, Mage Disjunction, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Alamanther Return, Mind Rape, Putrefation(Dragon #300), Srinshee's Spell Shift, Instant Refuge, Miracle(Lucky Domain)
8th—Greater Arcane Fusion, Superior Invisibility, Minute Form, Greater Betow Curse, Greater Celerity, Mystic Shield, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Veil of Undead, Ghost Form
7th—Planar Bubble, Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Body outside Body, Antimagic Aura, Hide from Dragons
6th—Mental Pinnacle, Antimagic Field, Eye of Oracle, Force Shapechange, Analyze Dweomer, Trance of The Verdant Domain, Contingency Spell, Vileblade(Dragon #300)
5th—Arcane Fusion, Teleport, Greater Blink, Telekinesis, Baleful Polymorph, Kiss of the Vampire, Wall of Stone, Shadow Form, Transfusion(Dragon #339), Investiture of the Orthon
4th—Celerity, Friendly Fire, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Voice of the Dragon, Otiluke's Supressing field, Blacklight, Stifle Spell, Temporal Repair, Betow Curse
3rd—Permeable Form, Vision of the omniscient eye, Gust Wind , Dolorous Blow, Antecipate Teleport, Nauseating Breath, Spiderskin
2nd—Wings of Cover, Heroic, Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Chamaleon, Suffer to flesh, Blur, Cloud of Knives, Celerity lesser, Dissonant Chant
1st—True Strike, True Casting, Hail of Stone, Eyes of Avoral, Strenght of True Form, Undetectable Aligment, Shieldbearer, Improvisation



Dragon Mag Spells:
Temporal Repair Drag 350 pg 61
Corruption Spells, Putrefation Drag 300 pg 56
Transfusion spell drag 339


Sorcerer Acess to everyspell?

Tower of the Rings are sets of theurgy rings(Comp Arcane pg146), giving access to all spells for the sorcerer, similar to the mage of the arcane order.
Theurgy Rings gives access to cleric spells / Wizard / Druids / Bards to Tower leaders.
Summons / Ice Assassins / Simulacruns / Minions / Dragon Pet refills the rings.
Black Ethergaunt = Wizard Spells Acess
Planetar = Cleric Spells Acess
Abeil Queen = Druid Spells acess


Useful Non Sorcerer spell:

Cleric Spells:

9th—Greater Visage of Deitie, Monstruous Thrall, True Ressurection
8th—General of the Undead, Mind Blank
7th—Blasphemy, Holyword
6th—
5th—Divine Agility, Surge of Fortune
4th—Divine Power, Consumptive Field, Death Ward, Freedom of Moment, Mark of the Enlightened Soul
3rd—Sheltered Vitality, That Art Thou, Spark of Life
2nd—Find Trap
1st—Sanctuary, Hide from Undead

Druid Spell:

9th—Greater Whirlwind
8th—Unearthly Beauty, Stormrage
7th—
6th—
5th—Owl's Insight
4th—
3rd—
2nd—
1st—


Magic Domain Acess

Magic Aura:
Identify:
Dispel Magic:
Imbue with Spell
Spell Resistance:
Antimagic Field:
Spell Turning:
Protection from SpellsMF
Mage's Disjunction

Necrotic spell acess

Corrupt Spell acess

Spell-like: Wings of Cover/3day, Share to allies, Celerity

Abilities Str-, Dex 93, Con 37, Int 35, Wis 72, Cha 118

Feats 38 feats(detail below); Extend Spell, Transdimentional Spell, Combat Casting, Iron Will, Persistent Spell, Twin Spell, Practical Metamagic(Twin Spell), Craft Contigent Spell, Arcane Thesis(Greater Arcane Fusion), Rapid Spell, Sculpt Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Smiting Spell, Fell Draining Spell, Mother Cyst Spell, Item Familiar(Max Hide skill), Draconic Heritage(Deep Dragon), Corrupt Arcane, Sanctum Spell, Arcane Strike, Spell focus(Necromancy), Undead Battery, Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of enlightenment-Trickery Domain), Fell Energy Spell, Mage Killer, Practiced Spellcaster, Supernatural Instinct, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Divine Sorcery(Lucky Domain), Dark Speech, Violate Spell, Divine Sorcery(Cold Domain), Earth Spell, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Reserves of Strength.

Heroic Spell: Mounted Combat

Free Empower Spell: Symbiotic Creature

Skills Hide +223(238 when Shapechange), Spot +164, Bluff +142, Diplomacy +87, Performy +46, Disguise +98, Spellcraft +38, Use Magic Device +60, Use Psion Device +60,Knowledge(Religion) +10, Knowledge(Planes/Arcane) +36
Highlight
Stealth:
The Black Scar can hide and spy on their opponents with ease
+238 hide check, Superior Invisibility, Nondetection, Ex Vecna-Blooded, MindBlank, Supernatural Blacklight(Invoke Magic),
Black Scar will hardly be detected, if detected , it uses second impression skill trick to avoid being detected.
he uses Analyze Dweomer to discover all the craft contigent spell , to avoid surprises .
It will analyze all spells and target effects, will analyze all target weaknesses before attacking.
No risk, he used ice assasin(Black Scar clone controled by Necrotic Tumor + Mindrape) to avoid being attacked , it also uses riding dragons(Greater Wyrm Shadow Dragon) to use spells and attack targets with ease ( Skymage )
Great advantages in the initiative(+168 initiative)
Smiting Spell + Whirling Blade = Supernatural Imprisonment(142 save), Greater Betow Curse(141 save), Antimagic Aura(140 save).

If the target cast spells / Spell-like or Supernatural abilitie, it will be intercepted.(Mage Killer/Supernatural Instinct feats)
The intercepted target will be affected by smiting spells.(it can be deadly)

Black scar can throw multiples spells per round.

Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7, Twin Arcane Fusion
Slot 4, Sanctum Arcane Fusion

Each Arcane Fusion
Slot 4: Twin Celerity
Slot 1: Sanctum Lesser, Celerity


12 standard action + 6 move action(Sharing Spells with the Dragon PET and Ice Assassin)
Yes, they also have multiples actions


Greater Arcane Fusion Versatility, it can use any known spell, being possible to use several different combos.(very powerful combinations . It can be extremely deadly)
He can persist all spells that have access .


Body Outside Body
His clones can cast several supernatural abilities , including mage disjunctun , wishes, wings of cover .
If the enemie want to escape to your demiplane, the enemie have problems, Mental Pinnacle + Psicrown Metafaculty will find him. And I know all about your plan. Knowledge(Planes). And do not even try to block my entry, Supernatural Wish (Teleport) can bypass any defenses.
Each Body Outside Body can use Spell-like Celerity + Mage Disjunction, or Share Spell-like Wings of Cover


Combat Tatic
Do not try to escape, Investiture of the Orthon + Earth Temporal Repair can end your plans.


The Ice Assassin Attacks closely, Approaching with TowerShield, If you use Spells or Supernatural abilities will be intercepted by Mage Killer feat + Supernatural Instinct. If successful, all spells of the smiting spell will be discharged. You are in serious trouble. Try not to move, or you will be hit by more AoO.

Meanwhile Black Scar uses his move speed and standard action to keep his distance. Take Care, it Can Launch Multiplied Maximized Empowered Enlarger Earth Transdimentional Twin Hail of Stones + Supernatural Maximized Empowered Earth Enlarger Transdimentional Twin Sphere of Ultimate Destruction. When you have enough damage from the hail of the stones, you can easily disintegrate.

Do not try to use mage disjunction, you will have problems.
1) Will be intercepted by Ice Assassin.
2) Will not have enough range, Black Scar will keep the distance.
3) It will take a counterspell + Srinshee's Spell Shift = Your magic will come back against you
4) You will need a caster level check DC 78. Otherwise your abjuration has failed.(Otiluke Supressing Field)


You'd better not use Ice Assassin on yourself. Ice Assassin has Cold Subtype. Cold Domain will be fun, rebuke or command your Ice Assassin. Can Wizard do the same thing? It may, however, have to act first that my Ice Assassin (Impossible) and Wings of Cover + Supernatural Instinct feat will bring trouble for you.
Each Body outside Body clones rebuke/command your ice assassin.


Class Entry:
Divine Sorcerer: Complete Champion. PG 54
Domain acess(Entry Dweomerkeeper): Your Depth of belief allow you to channel divine power the way a cleric does

Dragonblood Sorcerer: Races of the Dragons. Pg 107
Spell-like Ability acess:

Stalwart Sorcerer: Complete Champion Pg 37
2 bonus feat:

Venerable Master of Hunt Body

STR
Ability Augmentation (Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 35
+5 Wishes
+6 Visage Of The Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+4 Elation (Morale)
-10 Minute Form
+8 Extract Gift (Enchant)
+30 (Consumptive Field) (Limitless)
-16 Transfusion

Total 64(+27)

Dexterity
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 40
+5 Wishes
+2 Drugs
+12 Divine Agility ( Enchantment )
+8 Minute Form
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+4 Elation
+16 Transfusion
Total 93 DEX(+41)

Constituition
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 38
+5 Wishes
+2 Drugs
+6 Visage Of Deite
+4 Elation
-2 Minute Form
-16 Transfusion

Total 37(+13)

Intelligence
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

base 16
+5 Wishes
+8 Extract Gift ( Ench )
+4 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs

Total 35(+12)

Wisdow
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

+18 Base
+5 Wishes
+3 Ages
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+32 Owl's Insight ( Competence )
+8 Extract Gift ( Enchant )
-2 Magic Blooded

Total 72(+31)

Charisma
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 18
+5 Level
+5 Wishes
+2 Magic Blooded
+2 Unseelie Fey
+1 Magical Location (Worm of Minauros)
+6 Devil Ego ( Profane Bonus )
+6 Righteous Aura ( Sacred )
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+3 Age
+40 Powerleech ( Always Draining From my Dragon Pet )
+6 Snowsong
+16 Transfusion

Total 118 Charisma(+54)



Saves: Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all bonuses

Fort: 8 +13(Con)+3(Resistence)+56(Persisted Ruin Delver's Spell)+54(Shapechange to Death Giant MMIII) +65(Shield(Su)-Divine Sorcerer) = 199(207 against spells/spell-like)

Reflex: 6 +41(Dex)+3(Resistence)+56(Persisted Ruin Delver's Spell)+54(Shapechange)+65(Divine Companion)=225(233)

Will: 13 + 31(Wis)+3(Resistence)+3(Iron Will)+56(Persistend Ruin Delver's Spell)+54(Shapechance)+65(Divine Companion)=220(233)
Skills:
(Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire) +2 all bonuses
Improvisation(+35 luck to skills when Back Scar need) + Sadism spell

*Planar Touchstone(Catalogue)= Trickery Domain; Hide, Disguise, Bluff acess
*Draconic Heritage(Deep)=Spot acess
*Extract Gift = +15 all skills

Hide: 23 +41(Dex)+51(Dexterity Aura/Marshal)+30(item Familiar) +16(Minute Form)+7(Spiderskin)+12(Chamaleon)+6(Greater Heroism)+22(Forestfold)+15(Extract) = +223

Spot: 23+31(Wis)+51(Death Giant)+10(Eye of the avoral spell)+12(Vision of the ominiscient eye)+22(That Art Thou)+15(Extract)=+164

Bluff: 23+54(Charisma)+6(Greater Heroism)+12(Voice of the Dragon)+32(Gibliness potion)+15(extract)= +142

Diplomacy: 0+54(Charisma)+6(Greater Heroism)+12(Voice of the Dragon)+15(Extract)=+87

Disguise: 13+54+6+10+15= +98

Spellcraft: +38

Use Magic Device: +60

Use Power Device: +60

Knowledge(Planes): +36

Knowledge(Arcane):+36


AC

AC: 10 + 65 Deflection(Shield(Su)/Divine Companion/Divine Sorcerer)+41(Dex)+5(Eye of the Oracle)+4(Cover Dragon) +7(Insight)= 132 Touch

Initiative

Initiative: +41(Dex)+54(Dexterity Aura/Marshal)+10(Gear)+7 Primal Instinct + 54(Death Giant)+2(Traits)= +168

Attack roll

All attack is touch attack, vorpal and autoconfirm crit, The Weapon uses invoke magic + Blacklight spell, then eliminates the enemy's DEX AC.

Attack Roll: 1d20(Choose 20/Surge of Fortune)+20(Divine Power)+ 41(DEX)+5(Enchant)+6(Morale)+8(Minute Form)+20(Arcane Strike feat)+20(True Strike)+3(Haste)+35(Improvisation)= +178(crit hit)

Whirling Blade attack Roll: 1d20(Choose 20/Surge of Fortune)+20(Divine Power)+ 54(STR)+5(Enchant)+6(Morale)+8(Minute Form)+20(Arcane Strike feat)+20(True Strike)+3(Haste)+35(Improvisation)= +183(Crit hit)


Caster Level

Caster Level: 64 Caster Level
Base 20
Bead of karma: +4 caster
Suffer to flesh: +5
Arcane Gloves: +2
Tatoo: +3
Adept Spirit +3 Insight
Mark of the Enlightened Soul(Good Spells), +2 Untype
Earth Spell feat + Reserver of Strengh Consumptive Field=+25
Defenses
Hide
Defenses: Shieldbearer + Reflective TowerShield = Total Cover
Craft Contigent Spell Condition: When the enemy cast Mage Disjunctun or similar with metamagic effect : Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
he uses Invoke Magic Supernatural Blacklight and abuse of hiding check
If the enemy cast some supernatural or magic effect will be intercepted(Mage Slayer/Supernatural Instinct) , no DEX AC (Blacklight)

Shapechange + Strengh of the true form
Good Picks: Death Giant, Shadesteel Golem, Aspect of Leviitan(Elder Evil), Mother Beholder

Metamagic Reducer
Undead Battery + Summon Undead = free 74 metamagic slots

Feat

38 Feats: Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos/Pysichic Reformation/Retraining rules:
18 level = 7 feats
Elf Original Race= 5 feats
Marshal Bonus=1 feat bonus
Draconic Bloodline bonus = 2 feat bonus
Flaws: 2 bonus
7 Site locations( Othy Hole, Metamagic Storm and others ): 7 bonus feat
Elder Evil fighting = 5 bonus feat
Tainted= 2 Bonus feat
Symbiotic Creature= Free Empowered Spell
Stalwart= 2 bonus feat
Seling Soul= 2 bonus feat
Zhentarim Skymage=3

DC
DC Check: Evil Subtype and Undead are ignore tainted negative effect.
Evil Subtype and Kiss of the Vampire(Undead)
The limit for tainted score will be the maximum that it can survive without evil subtype.
DC=10+144(Tainted Score)+ Spell level +10(If Irresistible spell)

Pet
It is incredibly efficient , Share Spells(Skymage) combined with powerful spells can be very dangerous

Buffs

Buffs: Extend/Persist everything if possible.
Earth Spell Temporal Repair
Srinshee's Spell Shift
Shapechange(Death Giant/Shadesteel Golem or Elemental Weirdy)
Hide Life
Greater Visage of Deitie(Good)
Foresight(Elemental Weirdy)
Invisibility Superior
Minute Form
Mystic Shield
Veil of Undead
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience
General of Undead
Unearthly Beauty
Stormrage
Arcane Spellsurge
Planar Bubble
Extraordinary Spell aim/Selective Spell Antimagic Field
Eye of Oracle
Analyse Dweoper
Greater Blink
Kiss of the Vampire
Owl Insight
Divine Agility
Surge of Fortune
Friendly Fire
Ruin Delver's Fortune x3
Voice of the Dragon
Consumptive Spell
Supernatural Spell Blacklight(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Death Ward(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Freedom of Moment(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Sheltered Vitality(Invoke Magic)
Second day, Supernatural Sanctum Kiss of the vampire(Invoke Magic)
Invoke Magic Permeable Form
Vision of The omniscient eye
Dolorous Blow
Antecipate Teleport
Spiderskin
That Art Thou
Heroic x5
Whaithstrike
Chamaleon
Bladeweave
FellDrain Maximized Twin Cloud of Knive(Invoke Magic)
Find Trap
Forestfold
Gibliness(potion)
Primal Insting(potion)
Eye of Avoral
Strenght of the true form
undetectable aligment
Shieldbearer
Shadow Form
Imbue with spell ability
When the king is attacked: Twin GAF
When the enemie use Time Stop: Time Stop
When the king attack: Twin GAF
When the Enemie use Celerity or Similar:Twin GAFx14
Infinite Loop or Limitless loop
Pay attention: This is a way to have a viable and acceptable battle on an adventure.
Infinite loop has no clear definition. So I will try to define it.

Any action which has no limit established then have any multiple feats, spells, bodys:
Example: Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed (Multiples Feats) or Other sites multiple times.
Infinite Greater Arcane Fusion
Infinite Money or a limit not set.
Infinite Spells or a limit not set
Any action that may be abusable accumulating the same effect repeatedly, even if it really is not infinite:
Example: Awaken + Animal shapechange = Magical Beast
New Animal shapechange + New Awake

Craft contingency spell is not an infinite loop, it has a set limit. Max your HIT DICE.

Detail, this build is able to use all these tricks. But it will be only a TO build.

FAQ:
Q: How you will use Metafaculty?
A: Mental Pinnacle + Psicrown Metafaculty + Use Psionic Device=60 Manifester level + Surge of Fortune

Q:How you will counter craft contingent spell?
A: Analyse Dweomer and know your trigger condition

Q: Mindsight can detect you?
A: No. Superior Invisibility block all senses except touch.

Q: Master of The Hunt Body?
A: This is a Optimized Character. True, Mindswift against Master of The Hunt Body

Q: Ice Assassin of youself?
A: Yes, Black Scar use your shadow clone to avoid dangerous. Ice Assassin + Mindrape + Necrotic Tumor Black scar control them.

Q: Infinite spell or DC check?
A: No. Every spellcaster can use infinite loops, Black Scar never use more spell than Sorcerer daily spell + Charisma Bonus
Black Scar limits its tainted score the most he would survive without evil subtype

Q: Towershield unable your attack?
A: Yes, but Arcane Fusion is not an offensive spell; Target:Personal

Q: Use Dragonpact/retraining/Shun of the dark chaos/Embrance of the dark chaos/Psychic Reformation is infinite loop?
A: No, Change limited spell/feat per another is no a infinite loop.

Q: How do you apply metamagic in lvl 9 spells?
A: Undead Battery feat

Q: how you cast divine spells?
A: Imbue with spell ability/ Domain Acess ACF/ Planar Touchstones(catalogues)

1) Wizard more versatile? False, Black scar can CAST and METAMAGIC(Usually persisted) ANY SPELL. (Wizards Spells, Cleric Spells, Druid Spells, Bard Spells). Also, Miracle and Supernatural Wish say hellow.
2) Sorcerer as base casting. It's invencible.
3) "if you were to put the same amount of effort into optimizing a wizard, what would you make?". Wizards cant beat Black Scar. It's impossible for them. No matter how optimized it is.
4) Wizards is UNABLE to use any trick that Sorcerer King can do. Only sorcerer can use the listed tricks.





Black Scar attack started
https://store.donanimhaber.com/20/b8/bd/20b8bdbffe0891e9a8703f6fd34b7a3a.png



First Twin GAF
Slot 7: Sculpt(Line/Cone) Selective(Ice Assassin/Clone) Antimagic Field
Slot 4: Sanctum Arcane Fusion

Slot 4: Twin Empower Maximized Transdimention Enlarger Fell Drain Hail of Stones
Slot 1: Twin Empower Maximized Transdimention Enlarger Fell Drain Hail of Stones

25 negative damage + 1300 damage

After it, if your Wizard survive, they are staggered
Nonlethal Maximized Empowered Twinned Transdimentional Obedient Avalanche.
Wizards are Unconcious and Buried(Staggered character cant use full round action, they cant scape)


Magic itens dont work inside AMF
Tinfoil Hat Trick dont work, Hail of stones also do damage on objects. Your wall is destroyed, affecting the wizard normally.


Next combo or it's enough to kill them?



Do you think he's alive? You have serious problems.
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder689/18650689.jpg

Do you think it's enough to survive?
If you are undead or construct, when it 0 HP, it will be destroyed. Hide Life Protect Only for Dying and Dead Condition. You will be affected normally.

Back Scar will cast Invoke Magic + Supernatural Transdimentional Sanctum Twin Telekinesis. You are immobilized and inside the AMF.
If you are outside the AMF, your freedom of movement will be supressed by Otiluke's Supressing Field.


If you're Undead
Invoke Magic + Supernatural Smiting Twin Spark of Life. You're vulnerable.

If you're Construct
Invoke Magic + Supernatural Smiting Twin Humanoid Essence. You will be vulnerable.

If you are not Undead or Construct and still survive.
Invoke Magic + Supernatural Smiting Twin Touch of Juiblex = You are Vulnerable.


This is enough. Or do I need to go to the next one?





I'm disappointed with the Wizards, Necrotic Plague is the only one who tried to survive the first 2 combos. But he failed, and now he is Blind, Deaf and Sterile(Betow Curse). He also went to level 60 and returned to level 1 to suffer this humiliation,
He abandoned all of his ability to cast spells just to try to survive Black Scar attacks. Even so, he is incapable of overcoming it. I'm ashamed.
He has a constant antimagic field around him, stopping him from casting spells.. I'll explain better.

1:Wizard (feats:Tougness, Troll-blooded, Sculpt Self. Flaw: Inattentive)
2-19:Wizard
20:Incantifier
Spoiler: Prestige Races
Hide
Note that Prestige Races are extraodrinary abilities unless they give some type of casting (in which case, they're SU. I'll label these with a SU). Sorry for the breif desc criptions, but the full write-up for these would be long as heck.
Memory Trick: You can store your conciousness in several ways, as a Thought Bottle. Based on the Thought Bottle
Unchained Focus: You are resistant to effects that would stop your motion or alter your thinking, as Freedom of Movement and Mind Blank. In addition, the first 6 spell levels of spells or spell-like abilities that target you each day are returned at their caster, as spell turning. Based on Cowl of Warding.
Martyr's Focus: You ignore many effects that would stop you and resist death, as Favor of the Marty. Based of an item of continuous Favor of the Martyr.
Earthly Focus: Magic ceases to work in a 10 feet spread around you, as per Antimagic Field. Based off an item of continuous Antimagic Field. based off an item of continuous Antimagic Field
Deathly Focus: You are immune to crits and sneak attack, but take a -4 penalty to Charisma, as Living Undeath. based on an item of continous Living Undeath.
Grounded Focus: You are unable to be moved extradimensionally, as dimensional anchor. Based off an item of continuous Dimensional Anchor.
Ghostly Focus: You are incorporeal, as Ghostform. Based off an item of continuous Ghostform.
Orthon Focus: You take up some traits of the Orthon as per Investiture of the Orthon. based off an item of continuous Investiture of the Orthon.
Shapeshifter's Focus: You may alter your form once per round as a free action, as Shapechange. Based off an item of continuous Shapechange.
Centered Focus: +1 armor bonus to AC, immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain, and any negative energy effects. Based on +1 Soulfire Bracers of Armor.
Frosty Focus: You are immune to fire damage, as per Energy Immunity. based off an item of continuous Energy Immunity.
Basic Focus: You are immune to acid damage, as per Energy Immunity. based off an item of continuous Energy Immunity.
Vitality Focus: You are resistant to many attacks on your life force, as Sheltered Vitality. based on an item of continuous Sheltered Vitality.
Stable Focus: You again a +1 armor bonus to ac, and are impervious to any transmutation that would alter your form, though you may allow specific spells to bypass this imperviousness. Based on +1 Proof against Transmutation Bracers of Armor.



Sculpt Self
You have the ability to modify the essence of your being.
Benefit: You may spend XP to gain prestige race alterations. You cannot spend the XP for a prestige race alteration if that expenditure would reduce your level.

A creature must meditate for one day per 1,000 XP of the cost of the prestige race alteration, and the creature is presumed to spend about 8 hours meditating each day. You cannot rush the process by meditating more than 8 hours each day. Small interruptions or light activity do not disrupt this process so long as the creature spends about 8 hours a day meditating, but fighting, casting spells, using magic items, or other mentally or physically intensive activities ruin the day's meditation. Unlike a spellcaster creating a magic item, interruptions merely ruin the day's work, not the whole process. Thus, a creature can take as long as it wishes to gain the prestige race alteration.

Once gained, the prestige race alteration cannot be taken away. Loss of levels due to energy drain and other effects never take away a prestige race alteration, and they cannot be dispelled. Most of the effects of a prestige race alteration are considered extraordinary abilities, but any spellcasting ability granted by the prestige race alteration should be considered supernatural. You cannot take the same prestige race alteration more than once.

Creating Your Own Prestige Race Alterations
The possible effects of prestige race abilities are nearly limitless, but the XP cost can make certain alterations unlikely to be used. This article presents prestige race alterations worth up to 11,980 XP. This approaches the upper limit of what many players will be willing to pay for the benefits, and it limits the prestige race alteration to characters of 12th level or higher. When designing your own prestige race alterations, cheap benefits like skill bonuses are the most likely to be chosen and used by players.

Determining the XP cost of a prestige race alteration is simple in concept, but the math can become complicated. First, determine the cost of each of the granted abilities as through they were all qualities of separate magic items that have no space limitation. You might want to add an ad-hoc price increase due to the fact that the "items" can never be stolen or destroyed, but consider that they can also never be given to another party member who might need them or be sold to buy a better item, and that a feat is required to gain the benefits. Total all those prices. Once you have determined the total price in gold pieces, divide that cost by 5 to learn the XP cost. Note that if the prestige race alterations build upon one another, as in the case of the mineral focus's increasing natural armor benefit, you'll need to subtract the cost of the previous benefit from the cost of the new benefit before adding that to your calculations for the total gold piece cost of the prestige race alteration's qualities.


Only the continuous shapechange item is enough to make it return to level 0.

17(Minimum Caster level)x9(Spell Level)X4(continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4)x2(An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double)x2000gp=2.448.000 golds.

2.448.000/5=489.600xp

Yes, it does not have enough XP, even though it is level 20.

All items listed by it, total costs 6,717,600 gold and 1384,920xp
It needs to be level 60 or higher.

But, I'll ignore that he can not be level 20. Also Black Scar will not cast Mage Disjunction and then kill you with Supernatural Putrefaction (Dragon 300) or Greater Betow Curse or Trap the Soul.
[B]
1) You are still vulnerable to Nonlethal damage. You have not passed the first combo yet.
2) You can not regenerate vile damage, Violate Spell feat. You are vulnerable to multiple Violated hail of the stones.
3) Black Scar does not want to kill you, he will cast Invoke Magic + Smiting Supernatural Betow Curse (Alternative Curses). You are now Blind and Deaf, 50% chance not to act and it is sterile.
4) Now you will The Last Wizard (No magic), Blind and Deaf, Every item/Cloth will be removed as proof of Sorcerer superiority.
5) Curses: Blind and Deaf, 50% chance not act, Sterile, Everybody forgot you(Dragon 348)


The last Wizard, now is Black Scar new PET.
10 year after
https://cdn.mensagenscomamor.com/resize/400x225/content/images/int/frases_louco.jpg

https://store.donanimhaber.com/20/b8/bd/20b8bdbffe0891e9a8703f6fd34b7a3a.png

[Vaz]

Plane Shift to someplace you know the deity will be after a certain amount of time.
Teleport Through Time to get past portfolio sense.
Celerity because extra actions rule.
CL 150 supernatural Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

Teleport Through Time doesn't bypass Portfolio Sense. The God is aware in the present of that time, not to mention the mandatory Temporal Drift inherent within the spell, and up to 1/4 chance of frying yourself into a coma and staying exactly where you are.

Then you have the Material Components on top of that, which cannot be gathered except through a precisely worded wish that I'd easily be able to poke holes in at every single level. If you want to ignore the silliness of a wish economy, and we assume that there is miraculously such a flower available in a ready to go pot. Pulling it out of the component pouch would disturb it rendering it useless.

You need to get a way around the Immunity to death effects integral to a deity. Death Effects isn't requisite of the [Death] descriptor either going by the SRD.

[Bohandas]

what is teleport through time from. I know of a couple of spells that do that but all of them are either 3rd party (the licensed 3e conversion of Dragonlance) or non-D&D (Call of Cthulhu d20) and the only effect I know of that actually has the name "teleport through time" is an ability of a unique creature (Yog-Sohoth in CofC d20), not a spell

[Doctor Despair]

Looks like some sort of Forgotten Realms article. See Perilous Gateways by Robert Weise

[Kelb_Panthera]

what is teleport through time from. I know of a couple of spells that do that but all of them are either 3rd party (the licensed 3e conversion of Dragonlance) or non-D&D (Call of Cthulhu d20) and the only effect I know of that actually has the name "teleport through time" is an ability of a unique creature (Yog-Sohoth in CofC d20), not a spell

It's a spell from a web artice best left forgotten. Time travel as plot device is one thing. Time travel as a game mechanic is quite another.

[Inevitability]

It's a spell from a web artice best left forgotten. Time travel as plot device is one thing. Time travel as a game mechanic is quite another.

To be fair, it basically says 'you cannot fundamentally change the past' right in its description. It's still useful for the purpose of going forward in time, though.

[Doctor Despair]

To be fair, it basically says 'you cannot fundamentally change the past' right in its description. It's still useful for the purpose of going forward in time, though.

The way it describes it, it sounds more like an optional variant rule on time travel than the standard. With that said, I feel like it's best to assume that is how it would work on this forum, much in the same way folks typically don't use greater but dangerous effects of wish in their optimization.

[Vaz]

See above for it being a RAW plot point only. The only way you are getting that item is if it is actually placed there by your DM. You cannot spell component pouch it, nor eschew materials. About the only way in fact is by having an Epic Spell To Power Erudite have it as a Power Known at some point in the timeline so that an Ardent can pick it up on the Time Mantle or another Epic Psionic Full Festernfor Expanded Knowledge (or Mindraped Ice Assassins of said Epic StP writing it into your brain).

Outsode of that, you are wishing for a Scroll, and you might as well just ask your DM to transport you there anyway under the higher power if you are resorting to a Wish Economy.

Even with that ability though, it doesn't get around the Deities Portfolio sense who know about your coming in their present. And that is with the assumption that you don't bounce out of target range (chance for nearly 2 years late, and this cannot be modified), and that if you land on target. You don't zap yourself for at least 100 points of Int damage in front of him, rendering you of animal intellect for 2 days.

Even if it did get around Portfolio sense, if you elect to go back 2 years earlier than necessary to avoid that 40 month "wobble" those 80 weeks allow the deity to be aware regardless.

As someone who played said Ardent using any Time based tricks, like the "Casual Disconcern", Recharge Methods and "Save Point Trick", this was my proper capstone. To the extent where I knew enough about it and how to offset its downsides (remember, Psionic, so multiple castings a day, thanks to pp recharge methods). The DM gave up after I bounced a full 20 months later than I needed to be, rested for 5 minutes, had Naberius Bound on my Binder dip taken especially for that, and then Tpttime again on a shorter bounce. Each time getting closer until I got the right day prior to events.

Next time I tried to it, my DM said "you get there, don't **** around with explaining it all again, you just get there".

But, that doesn't answer the point that you are, at best case scenario, between 1 and 17 minutes away from encountering said God, full functional and in the correct spot. You have, up until this point, possinly avpided said god's detection, but now he full on knows about it, and because he is the cenre of his portfolios, knows what is about to happen.

Presuming that you have a way to bypass immunity to death effects such as a Deity owns, (not just [Death]), you have to hunt him down. As a God. With many thousands of followers, at least some of which will be equal in ability to thyself.

[Professor Chimp]

As far as I know, isn't a deity's power linked to his number of worshipers? If so, why fight the deity at full power? Eliminate most or all of his followers first. You'll have to find some way of doing that without attracting the deity's attention before the deed is done, but I'm guessing it should severely weaken it, possibly down to the much more manageable quasi-deity level.

Of course, you'll then be guilty of deicide and genocide on a massive scale. Will likely earn you a lot of attention you don't want.

[Zale]

As far as I know, isn't a deity's power linked to his number of worshipers? If so, why fight the deity at full power? Eliminate most or all of his followers first. You'll have to find some way of doing that without attracting the deity's attention before the deed is done, but I'm guessing it should severely weaken it, possibly down to the much more manageable quasi-deity level.

Of course, you'll then be guilty of deicide and genocide on a massive scale. Will likely earn you a lot of attention you don't want.

There's a David Eddings book with a similar conceit, in which the BBEG starts killing the followers of the goddess who has allied with the protagonists, which directly harms her.

[RedMage125]

So if you came up with a plan to murder Boccob (stupid idea, even among gods), he'd know about four months before you even came up with the idea.

Trying to kill ANY deity of magic is a bad idea. Boccob, Mystra...ANY of them.

Why?

"Magic" is their portfolio. You want to attack them? You are suddenly COMPLETELY UNABLE to use magic at all, ever again, completely cut off from the Weave forever.

Divine spellcasting, psionics, and even Supernatural abilities that imitate spells all tap into the Weave.

There's a David Eddings book with a similar conceit, in which the BBEG starts killing the followers of the goddess who has allied with the protagonists, which directly harms her.

I love The Elenium/Tamuli books!

A closer example (one set in a D&D world) would be the Lady Penitent Trilogy (set in Forgotten Realms). An epic-level drow archmage uses Elven High Magic (read as: unique epic spell) to make all of a demigod's followers (including the undead ones) momentarily forget her name. In that one moment, she had no followers, and died.

[Nifft]

"Magic" is their portfolio. You want to attack them? You are suddenly COMPLETELY UNABLE to use magic at all, ever again, completely cut off from the Weave forever.

Why would Boccob care about something specific to the Forgotten Realms?

[Vaz]

He might not be unique to FR, but you are. He might not care about FR in general, but he cares about himself.

By stopping you from using magic you are unable to hurt him.

Edit; also, no. Gods abilities are not explicitly tied to their worshippers, rather their worshippers are tied to their Divine Rank. Overdeities have no worshippers, for example, which if you extrapolated that reasoning, everyone has Divine Rank 21+ because of that.

[Nifft]

He might not be unique to FR, but you are. He might not care about FR in general, but he cares about himself.

By stopping you from using magic you are unable to hurt him.

No, you misunderstand.

THE WEAVE is specific to FR.

No other setting has an explicit element which says: " this one god can take away your Wizard magic".

Let me say that a different way: in most settings, gods can only take away Divine magic, and Arcane magic is none of their damn business. This is why Wizards challenge gods (and win) more often than Clerics.

[Vaz]

No, I didn't misunderstand, you just phrased your point badly.

He has the Alter Reality DSA, which is pretty much the same thing, as well as a non mind affecting Dominate with DC41 Will Save to break free.

This guy owns you.

[Nifft]

No, I didn't misunderstand, you just phrased your point badly.

He has the Alter Reality DSA, which is pretty much the same thing, as well as a non mind affecting Dominate with DC41 Will Save to break free.

This guy owns you.

No, now you're trying to move the goalpost.

The Alter Reality DSA has jack squat to do with the Magic Domain, nor with "the Weave" (which doesn't exist in most settings).

My point stands: "the Weave" is not a concern in any setting other than FR, and Boccob can't just take away your guns Arcane spellcasting on a whim.

[Vaz]

No I'm not. I'm convinced you're being obtuse on purpose.

The idea of this thread is "can you kill a deity". The answer flat out is 'no'. Portfolio Sense sees to that. They can't stop you trying, but they can prepare for it.

Someone made the point that attacking a god of magic can have you cut off fron the weave. The assumption was that you were in Faerun, hence that was a possibility. You made mention of being cut off from divine spells; only if you were stupid enough to attack your own god, or go after a god who would be able to threaten your deity into cutting off your hotline over threats to his own followers.

You made mention of it being unique to Faerun. I agree. But a God of Magic has command over that portfolio. Anything to do with Magic is their domain. They literally can just reverse-Oprah and say "no magic for you". Unless younhave a higher rank god order said Magic God to rescind that, you're SoL.

If you want it mechanically, they can hit you with a no save antimagic ray after queuing up a million Gates thanks to arbitrary high nested time stops (remember, he knows magic, and you are attacking him, he knows what you are doing before you do). He has 40 spell levels between him.

He can Unname you. You are literally nothing. And you never existed. You need someone to create you again, but the problem is, every bit of knowledge of you is wiped from existence.

If you want to optimize to the level of beating a god RAW and as they are printed, Good luck, you won't succeed, but if you take the typical DM's "I'm going to optimize as much as you optimize" a 60HD spellcaster is going to eat you alive.

[Nifft]

No I'm not. I'm convinced you're being obtuse on purpose.

The idea of this thread is "can you kill a deity". The answer flat out is 'no'. Portfolio Sense sees to that. They can't stop you trying, but they can prepare for it.

Someone made the point that attacking a god of magic can have you cut off fron the weave. The assumption was that you were in Faerun, hence that was a possibility. You made mention of being cut off from divine spells; only if you were stupid enough to attack your own god, or go after a god who would be able to threaten your deity into cutting off your hotline over threats to his own followers.

You made mention of it being unique to Faerun. I agree.

Okay.

Right now, you're currently agreeing with the only point that I actually made, while calling me names about your "understanding" of a point that I didn't actually make.

This place...

[Vaz]

Person A; Boccob can can cut off weave
You; why would boccob care about FR stuff?
Me; he doesn't he cares about you hurting him
You; no, you're wrong, the Weave is FR only
Me; i know.
You; no you're moving goalposts
Me; what
You; I win

Okay mate.

[Bartmanhomer]

Person A; Boccob can can cut off weave
You; why would boccob care about FR stuff?
Me; he doesn't he cares about you hurting him
You; no, you're wrong, the Weave is FR only
Me; i know.
You; no you're moving goalposts
Me; what
You; I win

Okay mate.
OK. Is there a point to it or not?

[Nifft]

Person A; Boccob can can cut off weave
You; why would boccob care about FR stuff?
Me; he doesn't he cares about you hurting him
You; no, you're wrong, the Weave is FR only
Me; i know.
You; no you're moving goalposts
Me; what
You; I win

Okay mate.

Jesus Christ, bro.

I'm saying that you're explicitly not arguing with any point that I'm making, and you're agreeing with my actual point -- and now you're being an ass about a disagreement that's entirely inside your own head.

What are you trying to accomplish with this little display?

[icefractal]

I'm inclined to agree with Red Fel on this - if the deity is being run with the unmodified stats from the book and not making any preparation actions, then it can be killed with sufficient optimization. If it's being run with it's full capabilities, then it can return any tactics you'd use twofold. Infinite loops? It can do those as well or better. WBLmancy? Deities have as much wealth as they want. Minions? Meet even more minions. And the simple fact of having all desirable spells active permanently makes them rather difficult to harm even if they stood there not responding.

[Vaz]

Jesus Christ, bro.

I'm saying that you're explicitly not arguing with any point that I'm making, and you're agreeing with my actual point -- and now you're being an ass about a disagreement that's entirely inside your own head.

What are you trying to accomplish with this little display?

You literally told me I was wrong and created an argument but won't admit it, accused me of moving goalposts, and yet still I ultimately endnup agreeing with the point you made (that point being that "Why would Boccob care about the FR?"), despite you changing your positio, and yet I still agree with you. I'm bemused at your insistence to carry it on despite everything being said and done, literally summing up the entire discussion in the quoted post, and called you out on where you claimed that I agreed with the point you were making, despite not making that point at all.

I mean, its okay not to have English as a first language, and to be able to converse as well as you did is better than I can do in many others. It doesn't change the point that the comment I responded to, and what you claim has been your point all alomg are two different things.

@Icefractal, I'm interested as to how you can do it, though. To give a-non trivial god, (say Boccob, as he is relevant atm) their death, what would you do? How do you get around their Portfolio sense and not just have them kill you?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm inclined to agree with Red Fel on this - if the deity is being run with the unmodified stats from the book and not making any preparation actions, then it can be killed with sufficient optimization. If it's being run with it's full capabilities, then it can return any tactics you'd use twofold. Infinite loops? It can do those as well or better. WBLmancy? Deities have as much wealth as they want. Minions? Meet even more minions. And the simple fact of having all desirable spells active permanently makes them rather difficult to harm even if they stood there not responding.

This one in particular is absurdly in the deity's favor to a hilarious degree. It's tough to beat "There's a multiplanar, full-blown religion based on worshipping -me- and the portfolio over which I have dominion." for getting people willing to drop everything and do your bidding on a moment's notice.

[Nifft]

You literally told me I was wrong and created an argument but won't admit it, accused me of moving goalposts, and yet still I ultimately endnup agreeing with the point you made (that point being that "Why would Boccob care about the FR?"), despite you changing your positio, and yet I still agree with you. I'm bemused at your insistence to carry it on despite everything being said and done, literally summing up the entire discussion in the quoted post, and called you out on where you claimed that I agreed with the point you were making, despite not making that point at all. I was responding to someone else, when you jumped in and tried to pick a fight.

Which you then proceeded to lose.

Watching you try to score points in a fight that nobody cares about is kinda sad. You should really consider trying to contribute in a constructive way, instead of continuing... that.


I'm inclined to agree with Red Fel on this - if the deity is being run with the unmodified stats from the book and not making any preparation actions, then it can be killed with sufficient optimization. If it's being run with it's full capabilities, then it can return any tactics you'd use twofold. Infinite loops? It can do those as well or better. WBLmancy? Deities have as much wealth as they want. Minions? Meet even more minions. And the simple fact of having all desirable spells active permanently makes them rather difficult to harm even if they stood there not responding.
Yeah, exactly. As a bunch of us said back on page one, this sort of thing is extremely DM-dependent.

Are you using 1e conventions, where gods have stats and you can face-stab them?

Are you using 2e conventions, where you need a really big statue to permanently kill a god?

Since this is the 3e forum, it's more likely you're using 3e conventions -- but there are so many to choose from. For example, in Eberron, nobody knows if gods are real, since nobody living has met one. So to kill a god, you'd need a two step plan:
1 - Discover the truth of the universe, and
2 - Stab this truth in the face.

(That sort of thing can make for a fine campaign, IMHO, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.)

[Vaz]

I was responding to someone else, when you jumped in and tried to pick a fight.

Which you then proceeded to lose.

How did I lose? I've said right from the start that Boccob had the ability to turn off someones magic, and that in Faerun it is the weave through which they do that.


Why would Boccob care about something specific to the Forgotten Realms?

That was your opening point. I jumped in, and 'picked a fight' (get a ****ing grip) by saying this


He might not be unique to FR, but you are. He might not care about FR in general, but he cares about himself.

By stopping you from using magic you are unable to hurt him.

To which i misunderstand you? Are you high? Why would Boccob care about FR? He doesn't. He isn't an intrinsic deity of FR. Would it help you feel good about yourself if people said Mystra so you aren't dealing with a multiverse (natively inherent to FR, actually). Regardless, God, Goddess, Hermaphroditic Attack Helicopter deity of Magic is your targeted attack.

They control the weave, winds of magic, runestones, whatever it is. They are the god of the setting, and as the person in control of magic, they can just nope you. In FR, that is by the god noping the weave, or telling your deity to stop giving some cretin magical powers or else your god and your followers will raise merry hell for his.

And I misunderstand? Why would a god care about being attacked? Um, i don't know. I'm doing you a gracious by putting you in the same context as a god, but if I slapped you for no reason, would you allow that slap? No. Your attitude here tells me this.

You instantly thought i was going for a fight, and told me I misunderstood, then moved goal posts then agreed with you and then I lost.

Considering I never attacked you, answered your incorrectly phrased question correctly and accurately in the manner in which it was asked, then reiterated my point, followed by being told I was moving goal posts after backing it up mechanically, only for me to only actually agree with you on the fact that Weave is FR unique... And yet I still lost.

Mate, you've said absolutely nothing correct outside of the weave being FR specific, proposed no argument, and had little of worth to say on the topic, and now you are basically claiming you won? Thats like going 10 rounds against Mike Tyson, not scoring a single point and still claiming victory as your eyes began to close and you spit yoir teeth out.

Enjoy your "victory".

[Nifft]

Mate, you've said absolutely nothing correct outside of the weave being FR specific

Yes, that's what I said: Boccob is not able to cut a caster off from "the Weave", since Boccob and "the Weave" are from different settings. I corrected someone on that specific point.

You've spewed hundreds of words of vitriol across the Internet while agreeing with the one thing that I actually said.

There was no fight, and yet you still managed to lose.

Now, will you please allow the thread to resume its actual topic?

[Vaz]

You didn't actually say that though. I've literally quoted it above you.

Hundreds of words of vitriol (malice? Really!) is rather an overstatement. Statement of fact, however is what I have spent literally hundred of words doing. But eh, my time is free at the moment and it didn't take too long out of my day (oh no, what else could I have done with that extra 20 minutes?), and I'm not exactly having to pay for the words I write.

But, yeah, feel free to continue this thread into how to kill a god. Only one person has attempted it and that was shutdown with ease.

Still awaiting someone to come out and kill a god without resorting to getting someone else to do it. You had a chance to. But you chose to tell me how much I lost at the Engljsh language without actuallynwroting what you mean.

Then again, i've probably misunderstood your babble as actually being a build? Could you please help me understand?

[Doctor Despair]

Still awaiting someone to come out and kill a god without resorting to getting someone else to do it.

Step 1. Play a chaotic bard; you naturally don't like folks knowing what you will do. You have no ambitions towards taking on deities.

Step 2. Follow an absurdly specific pattern of spells, class features, events, items, and feats to pump your charisma and SLAs such that your bardic Suggestion is 115 and you can bypass immunity to mind-effecting abilities with your bardic music -- higher than any deity can make as they are written in Deities and Demigods. See the link in my sig for details on how to do this. This requires you to be ECL 21, but no higher.

Step 3. Approach Chorranathau or Morlicantha and strike a bargain with them, either with simple skill checks and RP or via using Suggestion on them. They will voluntarily fail their save to a spell, such as Modify Memory, to forget about this bargain and, in exchange, when you become powerful enough, you will tip the scales of the Xorvintaal game in their favor. Phrase the deal such that your actions and details about your person are critical to their success. No one is able to know about your future actions until the conditions of your deal are fulfilled, deity or otherwise.

Step 4. Decide to try to become a god -- no one knows of your ambition as per the Xorvintaal dragons' abilities.

Step 5. Perform concerts in the honor of X deity, or deities in general, frequently invoking their names to attract their attention. A performance check of 30 attracts the attention of extraplanar beings; we are easily passing 100 here. Eventually, a deity will approach us.

Step 6. Fascinate the aforementioned deity, then use suggestion on them one or more times. Suggest that they give their divine ranks over to you to improve the quality of the performance and, of course, on your honor as a performer, you would give them back afterward.

Step 7. Use your newly acquired divinity to dispose of the high HD outsider(s) observing you.

[zergling.exe]

Step 1. Play a chaotic bard; you naturally don't like folks knowing what you will do. You have no ambitions towards taking on deities.

Step 2. Follow an absurdly specific pattern of spells, class features, events, items, and feats to pump your charisma and SLAs such that your bardic Suggestion is 115 and you can bypass immunity to mind-effecting abilities with your bardic music -- higher than any deity can make as they are written in Deities and Demigods. See the link in my sig for details on how to do this. This requires you to be ECL 21, but no higher.

Step 3. Approach Chorranathau or Morlicantha and strike a bargain with them, either with simple skill checks and RP or via using Suggestion on them. They will voluntarily fail their save to a spell, such as Modify Memory, to forget about this bargain and, in exchange, when you become powerful enough, you will tip the scales of the Xorvintaal game in their favor. Phrase the deal such that your actions and details about your person are critical to their success. No one is able to know about your future actions until the conditions of your deal are fulfilled, deity or otherwise.

Step 4. Decide to try to become a god -- no one knows of your ambition as per the Xorvintaal dragons' abilities.

Step 5. Perform concerts in the honor of X deity, or deities in general, frequently invoking their names to attract their attention. A performance check of 30 attracts the attention of extraplanar beings; we are easily passing 100 here. Eventually, a deity will approach us.

Step 6. Fascinate the aforementioned deity, then use suggestion on them one or more times. Suggest that they give their divine ranks over to you to improve the quality of the performance and, of course, on your honor as a performer, you would give them back afterward.

Step 7. Use your newly acquired divinity to dispose of the high HD outsider(s) observing you.

Xorvintaal dragon abilities would not prevent the deity from being tipped off that something bad will happen to them. Profile sense doesn't necessarily alert them to what you do, but it will tip off something happening to the deity in question regardless. The deity might then try and discover what is threatening them, and unable to find out what, would likely go full paranoia mode and set off a total extinction of Xorvintaal dragons as the gods are afraid of their divination blocking power when they are in danger.

[Doctor Despair]

Xorvintaal dragon abilities would not prevent the deity from being tipped off that something bad will happen to them. Profile sense doesn't necessarily alert them to what you do, but it will tip off something happening to the deity in question regardless. The deity might then try and discover what is threatening them, and unable to find out what, would likely go full paranoia mode and set off a total extinction of Xorvintaal dragons as the gods are afraid of their divination blocking power when they are in danger.

Alternatively, and more munchkinly: don't decide to fascinate the deity until you do so. Don't decide to suggest them until you already have them fascinated. Play a truly chaotic character and there will be no warning. I'll have to check the wording on Xorvintaal to see if you're right, but I figured I'd preemptively answer that one.

[Vaz]

Step 1. Play a chaotic bard; you naturally don't like folks knowing what you will do. You have no ambitions towards taking on deities.
Regardless. Deities know of the events, not your intentions. They can target you before you even know of your intention to attack you.


Step 2. Follow an absurdly specific pattern of spells, class features, events, items, and feats to pump your charisma and SLAs such that your bardic Suggestion is 115 and you can bypass immunity to mind-effecting abilities with your bardic music -- higher than any deity can make as they are written in Deities and Demigods. See the link in my sig for details on how to do this. This requires you to be ECL 21, but no higher.
You need 30 ranks perform by this stage, so ECL27. That said, Skill Point and HD Tricks at this stage aren't new, so I'll allow it. However, giving Divine Ranks over is an obviously Harmful thing to do, in as much as you cannot tell someone to throw away their sword in the middle of a battle. Also under the assumption that a Deity doesn't know that you are going to do that and casts Silence on you with just the right collection of prepared spells.


Step 3. Approach Chorranathau or Morlicantha and strike a bargain with them, either with simple skill checks and RP or via using Suggestion on them. They will voluntarily fail their save to a spell, such as Modify Memory, to forget about this bargain and, in exchange, when you become powerful enough, you will tip the scales of the Xorvintaal game in their favor. Phrase the deal such that your actions and details about your person are critical to their success. No one is able to know about your future actions until the conditions of your deal are fulfilled, deity or otherwise.
Deities know what you are trying to do at this stage.


Step 4. Decide to try to become a god -- no one knows of your ambition as per the Xorvintaal dragons' abilities.
Cool. The deity doesn't care. He has knowledge of the event, not your intention. A guy with the madness domian and sanity score in the negatives cannot be made to divulge their future intentions as they have none. It does not avoid the fact that the Deity knows ofnthe event as ot occurs.


Step 5. Perform concerts in the honor of X deity, or deities in general, frequently invoking their names to attract their attention. A performance check of 30 attracts the attention of extraplanar beings; we are easily passing 100 here. Eventually, a deity will approach us.
See above.


Step 6. Fascinate the aforementioned deity, then use suggestion on them one or more times. Suggest that they give their divine ranks over to you to improve the quality of the performance and, of course, on your honor as a performer, you would give them back afterward.
See 2. Giving away Divine Ranks is harmful (you seen Disneys Hercules?).


Step 7. Use your newly acquired divinity to dispose of the high HD outsider(s) observing you.
Apart from none of that is possible, with each stage having fallacies in how Xorvintaal Dragons and Deities work.

[zergling.exe]

Alternatively, and more munchkinly: don't decide to fascinate the deity until you do so. Don't decide to suggest them until you already have them fascinated. Play a truly chaotic character and there will be no warning. I'll have to check the wording on Xorvintaal to see if you're right, but I figured I'd preemptively answer that one.

That wouldn't matter. The deity was tipped off to your attempts weeks ago, before you ever decided to do it. They wouldn't be made aware of things in regards to you, but they themself being in danger would alert them.

[Doctor Despair]

Regardless. Deities know of the events, not your intentions. They can target you before you even know of your intention to attack you.


I back up Xorvintaal further down; I hold that it works, answering this issue.


You need 30 ranks perform by this stage, so ECL27. That said, Skill Point and HD Tricks at this stage aren't new, so I'll allow it. However, giving Divine Ranks over is an obviously Harmful thing to do, in as much as you cannot tell someone to throw away their sword in the middle of a battle. Also under the assumption that a Deity doesn't know that you are going to do that and casts Silence on you with just the right collection of prepared spells.


Giving away Divine Ranks is not an obviously harmful act and neither is dropping your weapon. Deities grant divine ranks often, and if you phrase the suggestion well enough (as I suggested), it won't seem obviously harmful at all. You can't order the deity to stab themselves or otherwise kill themselves; that's the only limitation. Even if you get the phrasing wrong, they stop being suggested, but they are still fascinated until you stop fascinating them, so you are free to try again until you get it right.


Deities know what you are trying to do at this stage.


At this stage all you are trying to do is be mysterious. If you prefer, do this 21 weeks before you develop any ambitions to become a god, such that no portfolio sense could yield any knowledge at that point even if it somehow triggered. See Xorvintaal below.


Cool. The deity doesn't care. He has knowledge of the event, not your intention. A guy with the madness domian and sanity score in the negatives cannot be made to divulge their future intentions as they have none. It does not avoid the fact that the Deity knows ofnthe event as ot occurs.


No one can know about what you will do -- knowing about an event you perform is inherently knowing something you will do.


See above.


See below.


See 2. Giving away Divine Ranks is harmful (you seen Disneys Hercules?).


It is not harmful -- deities do it all the time. See above. Phrase it such that you'll give them back right away.


Apart from none of that is possible, with each stage having fallacies in how Xorvintaal Dragons and Deities work.

It certainly does work; you can't just call fallacy and then not explain it.


That wouldn't matter. The deity was tipped off to your attempts weeks ago, before you ever decided to do it. They wouldn't be made aware of things in regards to you, but they themself being in danger would alert them.

Divination Immunity (Ex) Nobody can learn about
Chorranathau’s future xorvintaal moves through
divination spells and similar effects. Such effects can still
reveal other information about him.

Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

The "event" is you performing; it is a future action, so the portfolio sense (a "similar effect" under Xorvintaal) shouldn't yield any information regarding it. Now, any player clearly would have slaughtered the Xorvintaal dragons eons ago, but the dragons are ancient so they clearly have some protection or agreement with deities that prevents them from doing so -- or perhaps deities just aren't that paranoid. Regardless, so long as you approach the dragon at least 21 weeks before you develop the ambition to become a god, no portfolio sense should trigger on your ambitions or performance.

Now, once you begin performing, anyone with relevant portfolios will be aware that an event is occurring, and where it is, but not what it is, as specified in the sense. You can use suggestion to make your fascinated deities block remote sensing and leave other deities of lower rank none the wiser; they will assume the deity is choosing to have privacy. In this case, it pays to be ambitions and shoot for a high DR deity.

Edit: Portfolio sense would only tell the deity that something relating to its portfolio would occur at that time, anyway, and where it would occur. They wouldn't even know you were involved. They couldn't remote sense into the future, so they'd have no idea what it is. If they get paranoid and don't go... then I guess the portfolio sense would shift the event back day after day after day? It's a debate in predeterminism here, which is probably why portfolio sense is so vague. If they know the exact event that will happen, and they prevent it, how could they have known it would happen in the first place? The writers side-stepped the issue by giving deities next to no information from their portfolio sense and forcing them to rely heavily on remote sensing.

[icefractal]

You know, this thread made me read up on exactly how the Portfolio Sense works, and it seems to be completely about events rather than thoughts or plans. So I don't think the obfuscation of that is even necessary.

It might be as simple as:
1) Amass a deity killing force; a massive number of powerful simulacra, for instance. I think you can even brief them on their orders without triggering PS, but certainly getting them ready in general would be safe.
2) Entire force Time Hops a year ahead, in a large number of locations at once.
3) As soon as they arrive, they seek out and attack the deity.

From the deity's perspective, they get a warning that a force of creatures will be coming to kill them, and a number of locations those creatures will arrive, but that's it. They can't see or do anything to the creatures, because they're outside the time stream. About the only thing they can do is hide - so for best effect, arrange events so that the deity hiding would be a bad thing (Gruumsh during a big orc/elf war, for example), and hope they underestimate the threat.

However, the creation of the force itself would likely trigger the PS of certain deities, so it may not work against those ones, or in settings where those ones are nosy/intervention-prone. Although I could see Boccob, for instance, noticing that someone had created a simulacrum army but not caring.

Again, this only works if the deities are walking around un-buffed and un-equipped other than the items in their stat block. Otherwise your deity-slaying force gets pwned by the better version that the deity has.

[Doctor Despair]

You know, this thread made me read up on exactly how the Portfolio Sense works, and it seems to be completely about events rather than thoughts or plans. So I don't think the obfuscation of that is even necessary.

It might be as simple as:
1) Amass a deity killing force; a massive number of powerful simulacra, for instance. I think you can even brief them on their orders without triggering PS, but certainly getting them ready in general would be safe.
2) Entire force Time Hops a year ahead, in a large number of locations at once.
3) As soon as they arrive, they seek out and attack the deity.

From the deity's perspective, they get a warning that a force of creatures will be coming to kill them, and a number of locations those creatures will arrive, but that's it. They can't see or do anything to the creatures, because they're outside the time stream. About the only thing they can do is hide - so for best effect, arrange events so that the deity hiding would be a bad thing (Gruumsh during a big orc/elf war, for example), and hope they underestimate the threat.

However, the creation of the force itself would likely trigger the PS of certain deities, so it may not work against those ones, or in settings where those ones are nosy/intervention-prone. Although I could see Boccob, for instance, noticing that someone had created a simulacrum army but not caring.

Again, this only works if the deities are walking around un-buffed and un-equipped other than the items in their stat block. Otherwise your deity-slaying force gets pwned by the better version that the deity has.

Portfolio sense would only tell them that an event will occur at those locations at X time and, possibly, what portfolios they relate to, but nothing more. They would have to use divination spells to learn anything else, as portfolio sense is worded. They could time travel to the future and use their remote sensing to try to learn more, I suppose, but at that point your force is already there. I think they'd still be aware that something will happen when your force arrives, but they'd have no idea what. Though if we open up the time travel bag there's a whole lot of issues to address.

Can you travel back in time to kill a deity prior to rising? Or abuse time economy that way to snowball events heavily in your favor? The text in Teleport Through Time suggests that DND be pre-deterministic, and their choice in wording portfolio sense doubles down on that since they stopped it from giving any specific info. This would prevent the deity from traveling back in time to find all future enemies, kill them, etc... since that would alter the time stream. It pays to get Xorvintaal protection early to prevent any sort of remote sensing, portfolio sense or otherwise, just to dodge the issue entirely. I guess they could meticulously research every living person to figure out all potential threats, though I'm sure such a task would drive any deity mad and, ultimately, I'm sure other deities wouldn't care for someone prying into the world like that since they have their own secret plots going on. Presumably deities have a gentleman's agreement about abusing time-travel, or else no deity can ever have any secrets from even each other. Again, it's neater just to use Xorvintaal to dodge portfolio sense entirely until the event takes place -- at which point they are no longer future moves but current moves.

However, another issue is that the deity could probably take the simalacrum in a straight fight unless they were also simalacrum of other deities. I think you can Ice Assassin deities with some simple mechanics, but Ice Assassin is busted, haha. ;) I suppose creating two ice assassins of a given deity, assuming you have Xorvintaal to prevent them knowing you would do it, would do the trick. Once you have an ice assassin, he can block remote sensing to prevent any other deities from learning you've made one. You can then proceed to make an infinite amount of ice assassins and send them out, using time-travel or otherwise.

The time-travel thing, along with portfolio sense, raises an important question about pre-determinism in dnd. If a deity becomes aware of a future event and travels forward, only to find out that the future event is his death, the dnd universe cannon suggests that he cannot change it. Since deities inherently affect the world in a huge way, he cannot change the fact that he will stop being a god -- although he could perhaps change the fact that he will die by just giving all his divine ranks to you and trying to arrange that no one kill him, resigning himself to a mortal life under the radar. Would any deity then try to learn about the future at all? So long as they never know when they will die, they can try to take measures to defend themselves, but... those measures are just an illusion, aren't they? The event is going to happen regardless of anyone knowing about it; they would just be feigning self-determination. So instead would any deity try to learn about the future so that they can set their affairs in order and just go through the motions of fulfilling the future? If you make a character capable of felling a god, will that god instead greet you with open arms and perhaps try to initiate you in the ways of godhood without a fight? It's an interesting thing to consider.

[zergling.exe]

Step 3. Approach Chorranathau or Morlicantha and strike a bargain with them, either with simple skill checks and RP or via using Suggestion on them. They will voluntarily fail their save to a spell, such as Modify Memory, to forget about this bargain and, in exchange, when you become powerful enough, you will tip the scales of the Xorvintaal game in their favor. Phrase the deal such that your actions and details about your person are critical to their success. No one is able to know about your future actions until the conditions of your deal are fulfilled, deity or otherwise.

Coming back to this, I don't believe that striking that bargain will protect you're actions if they are not part of the dragon's plan (which since you made them forget about the deal, none of your actions are), since the dragon is immune to the divinations, not you. You're actions are not part of the dragon's plan, thus they are not the dragon's moves and thus are not protected by the dragon's immunity.

[Doctor Despair]

Coming back to this, I don't believe that striking that bargain will protect you're actions if they are not part of the dragon's plan (which since you made them forget about the deal, none of your actions are), since the dragon is immune to the divinations, not you. You're actions are not part of the dragon's plan, thus they are not the dragon's moves and thus are not protected by the dragon's immunity.

The dragon took part in making the plan. If I tell my friend we are going to meet up at 5, and I forget, I still made the plans. It should still work -- which is to say there is nothing restrictive in the text suggesting they must always be aware of plans they have made for future moves. They have paid you, after a fashion, to enact change in the game, and your actions up til then (as you will phrase when you make the plans) will be innate to that move. I honestly think it's about as busted in its vagueness as God Blooded of Vecna in application, although of course Vecna Blooded erases more information.

[Zale]

Trying to kill ANY deity of magic is a bad idea. Boccob, Mystra...ANY of them.

Why?

"Magic" is their portfolio. You want to attack them? You are suddenly COMPLETELY UNABLE to use magic at all, ever again, completely cut off from the Weave forever.

Divine spellcasting, psionics, and even Supernatural abilities that imitate spells all tap into the Weave.


Hello! I'm not sure what system you're working off, but the only one I have common ground with is the Deities and Demigods rule-set.

Which, nicely enough, provides a full layout of Boccob's statistics! He lacks any ability to revoke people's access to magic.

Mystra on the other hand, absolutely can deny people's access to the Weave, but that doesn't prevent the use of magic for characters who never made use of the Weave the begin with.

Also Mystra's died so many times that I don't think she's a great example of unkillable and untouchable gods. I'm pretty sure by now usurping/killing Mystra is a part of the curriculum at any decent magic school in FR.



You made mention of it being unique to Faerun. I agree. But a God of Magic has command over that portfolio. Anything to do with Magic is their domain. They literally can just reverse-Oprah and say "no magic for you". Unless younhave a higher rank god order said Magic God to rescind that, you're SoL.


Well, if you give them a unique Divine Salient Ability that does that, yes, but otherwise you're wrong.

If you dislike the Deities and Demigods rules; wish to ignore them, that's fine, but at least preface your statements as such.

[Aharon]

Hello! I'm not sure what system you're working off, but the only one I have common ground with is the Deities and Demigods rule-set.

Which, nicely enough, provides a full layout of Boccob's statistics! He lacks any ability to revoke people's access to magic.

Boccob has Arcane Mastery, which lets him invent spells without having to research them. It would be within the rules (though a ****ty move by any real DM), to have him invent the spell

Boccob's Middle Finger to <Insert Caster Name here>
Transmutation
Level: Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: see text
Targets: <Caster Name>
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell has unlimited range, it can effect its target even across planes. The target instantaneously loses all spellcasting ability. It may never cast spells of any kind again, nor may it use spell-like or supernatural abilities.


The SDA Arcane Mastery is incredibly powerful because it is totally open-ended. And the above spell wouldn't even be out of line for a 9th level spell - it is incredibly specific. Any mortal spellcaster that would try to research this spell would have to pour lots of monetary ressources and xp into the spell development process, so it would even be somewhat balanced in the hands of a PC.

[Stealth Marmot]

I got a question to ask everybody, how do you kill a deity? Also is killing a deity possible or no?

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

[Aharon]

Step 6. Fascinate the aforementioned deity, then use suggestion on them one or more times. Suggest that they give their divine ranks over to you to improve the quality of the performance and, of course, on your honor as a performer, you would give them back afterward.


To my knowledge, there is only one mechanism of investing divine ranks in creatures - creating proxies. Proxies are invested in with exactly one divine rank. Getting that is already an impressive achievement, but you'd have to get the God to hand out his other divine ranks to other proxies to make it Divine Rank 0. Then, you'd have to kill the God before it can act even once, since it can take back its Divine Rank from you in a standard action.

[Keltest]

It is not harmful -- deities do it all the time. See above. Phrase it such that you'll give them back right away.


Giving away any given divine rank may not be harmful, but giving away all of them certainly is. Even if you don't take into account your personal murder plot against the poor god, they almost certainly have enemies who are watching them (or trying to) and would react to such a vulnerability. And even if that somehow isn't the case, most gods tend to be using that power to do various things like give spells to their priests, guidance to their followers, and generally maintaining their portfolio.

Its definitely a harmful act.

[danielxcutter]

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Oh yeah, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Aka, crazy enough that it actually makes some kind of demented sense, the series.

[Stealth Marmot]

Oh yeah, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Aka, crazy enough that it actually makes some kind of demented sense, the series.

Pretty much defines Douglas Adams as a whole as a writer: Things that are so crazy they end up making sense....and it sort of pisses you off that it does.

[Zale]

Boccob has Arcane Mastery, which lets him invent spells without having to research them. It would be within the rules (though a ****ty move by any real DM), to have him invent the spell

Boccob's Middle Finger to <Insert Caster Name here>
Transmutation
Level: Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: see text
Targets: <Caster Name>
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell has unlimited range, it can effect its target even across planes. The target instantaneously loses all spellcasting ability. It may never cast spells of any kind again, nor may it use spell-like or supernatural abilities.


The SDA Arcane Mastery is incredibly powerful because it is totally open-ended. And the above spell wouldn't even be out of line for a 9th level spell - it is incredibly specific. Any mortal spellcaster that would try to research this spell would have to pour lots of monetary ressources and xp into the spell development process, so it would even be somewhat balanced in the hands of a PC.

Well, of course, if you're going to use research rules as a thinly veiled form of DM fiat.

You might as well just sit down with your player and say, "The rules mean nothing, your power is naught and everything happens according to my will. Submit or leave."

-But- that's not so much because Boccob is using his control over Magic as a domain; more because he's a very, very, very good wizard.

I don't doubt Boccob can beat other wizards at being a wizard, I'm just saying none of his abilities explicitly give him the power to Unmagic a spellcaster for good.

[Keltest]

Well, of course, if you're going to use research rules as a thinly veiled form of DM fiat.

You might as well just sit down with your player and say, "The rules mean nothing, your power is naught and everything happens according to my will. Submit or leave."

-But- that's not so much because Boccob is using his control over Magic as a domain; more because he's a very, very, very good wizard.

I don't doubt Boccob can beat other wizards at being a wizard, I'm just saying none of his abilities explicitly give him the power to Unmagic a spellcaster for good.

The level of theoretical optimization needed to go toe to toe with a god and not just get erased already requires extrapolating abilities from the actual text (for example, the bard thing above allowing them to grab the attention of a deity at will). This guy happens to have an ability that says "can do anything if he spends enough time thinking about it." which makes that extrapolation either really easy or unnecessary depending on your point of view.

Furthermore, he is a "very, very, very good wizard" because he has control over Magic as a domain. He has, as a specific power, the ability to functionally raise the power ceiling on what wizards can do at will and with almost no restrictions.

[Melcar]

I got a question to ask everybody, how do you kill a deity? Also is killing a deity possible or no?

A DM who knows how to play a deity and use all of its abilities correctly is nigh killable. Its shoulbd be notet, that like everything else the level of optimization is very very low. Therefore give Tippy a greater deity and that is about how dificult it should be.

I would say a party of 5 level 30-40 characters would fail against a greater deity. At least they should. IMO

Note also, that there is a clause somewhere in forgotten realms that stats that only a divine being can kill another divine. So the PCs would need the help to put the final blow.

[Aharon]

Well, of course, if you're going to use research rules as a thinly veiled form of DM fiat.


But that's the beauty of it. The ability explicitly states he doesn't need to research spells, he just invents them:



Arcane Mastery
Prerequisites
Spellcaster level 1st, Int 29, Spell Mastery.

Benefit
The deity can prepare any wizard spell that it can cast without using a spellbook.

Notes
This ability gives the deity access to every spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, provided that the deity has sufficient wizard levels and a sufficient Intelligence score to cast them. The deity also can invent new sorcerer/wizard spells without researching them.

Suggested Portfolio Elements
Knowledge, magic.

This means that the deity completely circumvents the rules for researching spells given in the DMG - and also the guidelines these rules contain. Basically, any god with Arcane Mastery can pull the same shenanigans Pun-Pun can via Manipulate Form.

[RedMage125]

Wow.

I'm the one who brought up the "cut off from the Weave" bit, and man did that spark some vitriol.

Let me apologize for using a FR-specific term, and just say that Vaz was absolutely right in what he said in regards to this matter. At least HE understood what I meant.

Yes, "the Weave" is a FR-specific thing. But the basic principle still applies.

Hello! I'm not sure what system you're working off, but the only one I have common ground with is the Deities and Demigods rule-set.

Which, nicely enough, provides a full layout of Boccob's statistics! He lacks any ability to revoke people's access to magic.
Except for magic being in his portfolio. This is to extrapolate from what Red Fel said earlier. If a DM just runs a deity like a stat block in Deities and Demigods they can be killed easily.

As soon as he starts paying ANY attention to what divine abilities a deity has, as well as giving any thought as to what mastery of their portfolio MEANS, a person's chance of slaying a deity becomes smaller and smaller.


Mystra on the other hand, absolutely can deny people's access to the Weave, but that doesn't prevent the use of magic for characters who never made use of the Weave the begin with.
Which is only the Shadow Weave in FR.

Divine spellcasters still tap into the Weave, their method of doing so is just different. Psionics are the same.


Also Mystra's died so many times that I don't think she's a great example of unkillable and untouchable gods. I'm pretty sure by now usurping/killing Mystra is a part of the curriculum at any decent magic school in FR.
Mystryl - sacrificed her own life to repair the damage to the Weave that Karsus caused, so not "killed". She was "reborn" as Mystra, who limited spells to 9th level and below.
Mystra - Was killed by Helm (another Deity), during the Time of Troubles when Mystra's power was limited by Ao (she was, for all intents and purposes, mortal) and Helm's power was not.
Mystra (Midnight) - Was killed by TWO Greater Deities (Cyric and Shar), one whose portfolio was murder, and the other also a goddess of magic.

So only ONCE was she killed while in full control of her faculties. I'm, gonna go ahead and say that if it LITERALLY took the deific incarnation of murder to kill someone, that mortal means aren't gonna cut it.


Well, if you give them a unique Divine Salient Ability that does that, yes, but otherwise you're wrong.

If you dislike the Deities and Demigods rules; wish to ignore them, that's fine, but at least preface your statements as such.
You don't need to go in and "give him a unique divine salient ability". It's just part of his portfolio and the mastery of it that comes with being a greater deity.

Boccob has Arcane Mastery, which lets him invent spells without having to research them. It would be within the rules (though a ****ty move by any real DM), to have him invent the spell

Boccob's Middle Finger to <Insert Caster Name here>
Transmutation
Level: Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: see text
Targets: <Caster Name>
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell has unlimited range, it can effect its target even across planes. The target instantaneously loses all spellcasting ability. It may never cast spells of any kind again, nor may it use spell-like or supernatural abilities.


The SDA Arcane Mastery is incredibly powerful because it is totally open-ended. And the above spell wouldn't even be out of line for a 9th level spell - it is incredibly specific. Any mortal spellcaster that would try to research this spell would have to pour lots of monetary ressources and xp into the spell development process, so it would even be somewhat balanced in the hands of a PC.
Add a "Divine" component to the spell, and you put it LITERALLY out of reach of mortal casters.


Well, of course, if you're going to use research rules as a thinly veiled form of DM fiat.

You might as well just sit down with your player and say, "The rules mean nothing, your power is naught and everything happens according to my will. Submit or leave."

-But- that's not so much because Boccob is using his control over Magic as a domain; more because he's a very, very, very good wizard.

I don't doubt Boccob can beat other wizards at being a wizard, I'm just saying none of his abilities explicitly give him the power to Unmagic a spellcaster for good.
It's not about "shutting down your players" as you seem to indicate. It's about playing a deity like they're actually beings of immense power who have some influence over their portfolios.

All this? That we've been discussing? Magic-deity exclusive. Which is because I'm building on what Red Fel said about playing a deity SMARTLY. A deity-ESPECIALLY a Greater Deity-should be reasonably expected to have control over things in their portfolio.

Some deities should really be beyond the reach of mortals for that fact alone. You want to kill a deity? Pick one whose portfolio doesn't relate to anything that can be used against you.

Even played fully to the hilt of all expected and projected powers, a deity like Hestia (Greek goddess of heath and home) would still probably be kill-able by mortals of sufficient power.

[Zale]

The level of theoretical optimization needed to go toe to toe with a god and not just get erased already requires extrapolating abilities from the actual text (for example, the bard thing above allowing them to grab the attention of a deity at will). This guy happens to have an ability that says "can do anything if he spends enough time thinking about it." which makes that extrapolation either really easy or unnecessary depending on your point of view.

Furthermore, he is a "very, very, very good wizard" because he has control over Magic as a domain. He has, as a specific power, the ability to functionally raise the power ceiling on what wizards can do at will and with almost no restrictions.

My tone in that post was very adversarial and I apologize!

You're very much right that this basically rewrites the entire game on a whim. I fold!

[Doctor Despair]

To my knowledge, there is only one mechanism of investing divine ranks in creatures - creating proxies. Proxies are invested in with exactly one divine rank. Getting that is already an impressive achievement, but you'd have to get the God to hand out his other divine ranks to other proxies to make it Divine Rank 0. Then, you'd have to kill the God before it can act even once, since it can take back its Divine Rank from you in a standard action.

Technically, there is no RAW way to get divine ranks iirc. The tricks I remember are to mimic the Beggar God who has super low HD or to ice assassin and ask the ice assassin to return the rank. I'm sure there are a few more, but without assuming you can copy/paste a divine rank using abilities like that, I don't think there are any. However, as you have discussed further down, deities are capable of doing many powerful things either with Arcane Mastery or even just with Alter Reality. I think it's safe to say that bestowing divine ranks is within that capability.


Giving away any given divine rank may not be harmful, but giving away all of them certainly is.

It is no more harmful than asking a warrior to set down their shield or a priest to set down their divine focus. It may leave them open to harm, but it is not harmful in and of itself. If you think asking for all of them is too much, then ask for them one or two at a time to even further hide the possibility of harm.



Even if you don't take into account your personal murder plot against the poor god, they almost certainly have enemies who are watching them (or trying to) and would react to such a vulnerability.

The God doesn't know about your plot and your first suggestion should be to have them block remote sensing so no one else does. As I said before -- the act of giving over the ranks is not in and of itself harmful, so it should work. Asking him to kill himself in such a way that you get the divine ranks would be harmful, but just giving them (especially with the promise to return them) is certainly not. I'm an ideal world, nothing would go wrong with that plan, and Suggestion makes them perceive it as reasonable.



And even if that somehow isn't the case, most gods tend to be using that power to do various things like give spells to their priests, guidance to their followers, and generally maintaining their portfolio.

Once again, that is not direct harm. Not only does failing to do that not directly and "obviously" harm the deity, you've promised to give them back in a number of rounds -- or less than 30 seconds. In his mind, he thinks he will still be able to do all those things as he is required to. It should work just fine if you phrase it well enough.

[Zale]

Except for magic being in his portfolio. This is to extrapolate from what Red Fel said earlier. If a DM just runs a deity like a stat block in Deities and Demigods they can be killed easily.

As soon as he starts paying ANY attention to what divine abilities a deity has, as well as giving any thought as to what mastery of their portfolio MEANS, a person's chance of slaying a deity becomes smaller and smaller.

It's not about "shutting down your players" as you seem to indicate. It's about playing a deity like they're actually beings of immense power who have some influence over their portfolios.

All this? That we've been discussing? Magic-deity exclusive. Which is because I'm building on what Red Fel said about playing a deity SMARTLY. A deity-ESPECIALLY a Greater Deity-should be reasonably expected to have control over things in their portfolio.

Some deities should really be beyond the reach of mortals for that fact alone. You want to kill a deity? Pick one whose portfolio doesn't relate to anything that can be used against you.

Even played fully to the hilt of all expected and projected powers, a deity like Hestia (Greek goddess of heath and home) would still probably be kill-able by mortals of sufficient power.

I wasn't sure if I wanted to respond to this post, but I decided I can probably keep my temper sufficiently to do so!

My main issue is that I, as a person, cannot understand what someone else wants a god to be capable of unless the explain it in great detail.

The common ground I have, with regards to D&D 3.5e, is the statistics presented by Deities and Demigods.

If someone wishes to use rules that don't correspond to that, I have no way of responding unless they make it clear they're using some alternate system to model deific power.

I also really dislike people presenting their personal interpretations of how gods ought to be handled as RAW. I also have personal experience with DMs using deities as channels for DM fiat. I feel very strongly about these two issues; they've painted by reactions to this thread, which is unfortunate. I apologize, as I really should be able to exercise better self control.

I mean, I don't even disagree with you in terms of gods having power over their domains. I just dislike treating it as if it's how the rules work, when it's not. I mean, I understand using the rules differently, because a lot of the rules are silly and need houseruling to function at all.

[Doctor Despair]

Except for magic being in his portfolio. This is to extrapolate from what Red Fel said earlier. If a DM just runs a deity like a stat block in Deities and Demigods they can be killed easily...

As soon as he starts paying ANY attention to what divine abilities a deity has, as well as giving any thought as to what mastery of their portfolio MEANS, a person's chance of slaying a deity becomes smaller and smaller...

Some deities should really be beyond the reach of mortals for that fact alone. You want to kill a deity? Pick one whose portfolio doesn't relate to anything that can be used against you.

Even played fully to the hilt of all expected and projected powers, a deity like Hestia (Greek goddess of heath and home) would still probably be kill-able by mortals of sufficient power.

The fact of the matter is that they are stat blocked in Deities and Demigods that way as they exist after X centuries/milenia. If they were as paranoid as a player, they probably would go to all these measures to protect their power by altering the laws of reality. They could write even more god-like immunities (immunity to bardic music, immunity to mortal magic, etc) into the world, but they have not done so for Reasons we are not given. The evidence is that various builds are possible under the existing rules which have had opportunity to be altered by deities.

I would offer that it may a function of a pre-deterministic dnd universe; once a deity becomes powerful enough, they become aware that they have no agency over the big events (such as their fall from deity-hood) and so don't bother to go to the lengths that mortal casters and other characters would. If we plan a character that can kill a god, they could technically re-write the universe to make it impossible for that character to do so, but that shouldn't be able to prevent their fall from god-hood. Then again, perhaps over-deities prevent even greater deities from playing games like that and they would if they had the chance.

Ultimately, you're right that a DM can fiat deities however they like. The fact is that this bard could kill a deity. If the DM doesn't want him to, he won't, but that is true of anything. If the DM doesn't want the bard to eat meat, he won't. If he doesn't want the bard to breathe, he won't. There is no avoiding DM fiat. We have to assume the DM will follow the rules as written on this forums and treat the deities as they are written and not as Mary Sues that optimize the same way player characters do. Now, if your DM ever creates a NEW deity that hasn't been written a certain way... that would be something to be frightened about.


I wasn't sure if I wanted to respond to this post, but I decided I can probably keep my temper sufficiently to do so!

My main issue is that I, as a person, cannot understand what someone else wants a god to be capable of unless the explain it in great detail.

The common ground I have, with regards to D&D 3.5e, is the statistics presented by Deities and Demigods.

If someone wishes to use rules that don't correspond to that, I have no way of responding unless they make it clear they're using some alternate system to model deific power.

I also really dislike people presenting their personal interpretations of how gods ought to be handled as RAW. I also have personal experience with DMs using deities as channels for DM fiat. I feel very strongly about these two issues; they've painted by reactions to this thread, which is unfortunate. I apologize, as I really should be able to exercise better self control.

I mean, I don't even disagree with you in terms of gods having power over their domains. I just dislike treating it as if it's how the rules work, when it's not. I mean, I understand using the rules differently, because a lot of the rules are silly and need houseruling to function at all.

Deities certainly can be used as an avenue for DM fiat, but I agree that they shouldn't. They are NPCs at the end of the day with listed behaviors and characteristics. That the Xorvintaal dragons exists suggest they don't optimize or assume total control in the same way that others in this thread have suggested. Now, if we are dealing with houserules, we need to have an entirely different conversation -- if deities should have total control, and we alter the rules and their behavior to suit that, then certainly something cheesey like this bard wouldn't work at all. For the purposes of this conversation though ("How can you kill a deity?") I think we've sufficiently given one or two ways. Perhaps it's time for a new thread asking "Should you be able to kill a deity?" to pick up the direction this conversation is heading.

[Aharon]

Technically, there is no RAW way to get divine ranks iirc. The tricks I remember are to mimic the Beggar God who has super low HD or to ice assassin and ask the ice assassin to return the rank. I'm sure there are a few more, but without assuming you can copy/paste a divine rank using abilities like that, I don't think there are any. However, as you have discussed further down, deities are capable of doing many powerful things either with Arcane Mastery or even just with Alter Reality. I think it's safe to say that bestowing divine ranks is within that capability.


Yes, there is. That's by becoming a proxy of the god: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm

But you are right, Alter Reality may be usable to copy that effect.

[Doctor Despair]

Yes, there is. That's by becoming a proxy of the god: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm

But you are right, Alter Reality may be usable to copy that effect.

I meant to claim it permanently, but I suppose killing the deity after taking one or more ranks from them would prevent them from retrieving it with that standard action.

[Inevitability]

I meant to claim it permanently, but I suppose killing the deity after taking one or more ranks from them would prevent them from retrieving it with that standard action.

No need to start killing; there's easier ways to get rid of deities.

For one, you could somehow envelop the deity in Quintessence. Having a giant immobile god decorating your fortress seems pretty neat.

[Keltest]

No need to start killing; there's easier ways to get rid of deities.

For one, you could somehow envelop the deity in Quintessence. Having a giant immobile god decorating your fortress seems pretty neat.

Bonus points for having it be the god of beauty or some other cosmetic portfolio.

[Bartmanhomer]

I got a question to ask, What's the Deity Challenge Rating?

[Vaz]

There isn't one. You literally cannot kill them without going into to pseudo infinite loop territory and even that can fail because of how Teleport Through Time works in conjunction with portfolio sense and remote viewing.

[Doctor Despair]

There isn't one. You literally cannot kill them without going into to pseudo infinite loop territory and even that can fail because of how Teleport Through Time works in conjunction with portfolio sense and remote viewing.

That's not true at all, as I demonstrated above. You can kill them without going infinite (just arbitrarily high) and you can avoid triggering their portfolio sense in any meaningful way. Teleport Through Time's ability to alter the past is suspect and remote viewing only works in the present and has strict limitations set.

In regard to CR: the difficulty of the encounter should largely depend on how you play the deity. As I understand it you are evaluating using demigods and lesser deities, which are more like big monsters than the proper god-hoods we see at divine rank 16. Just think about how, if this was your character, you would optimally solve various encounters and think: can your PCs deal with those resolutions? Can they defeat him in a fair fight? If necessary, leave means to make it an un-fair fight. CR is a less than helpful system to begin with and, at these scales, its purpose becomes rather moot, I feel.

[Vaz]

But regarded some extremely lenient rulings on what you are able to do so, such as someone giving up their divinity (have you seen Disney's Hercules?) I'm not able to write it properly on mobile but will refute it later.

[Doctor Despair]

But regarded some extremely lenient rulings on what you are able to do so, such as someone giving up their divinity (have you seen Disney's Hercules?) I'm not able to write it properly on mobile but will refute it later.

I'm always happy to engage in a discourse, but I fear at this point we'll just be parroting the conversations already had in the thread. It was pretty well hashed out iirc.

[Inevitability]

But regarded some extremely lenient rulings on what you are able to do so, such as someone giving up their divinity (have you seen Disney's Hercules?) I'm not able to write it properly on mobile but will refute it later.

Except giving up divinity is pretty easy.


Proxies
A divine proxy speaks and acts on behalf of the divine being. When the demand for a deity’s presence is too high, the deity may use proxies.

Proxies are divine minions invested with a small portion of the deity’s power. A deity may invest 1 rank of its power (reducing its divine rank accordingly) in a single servant for as long as the deity chooses. The minion must be physically present for the deity to perform the investiture. While so invested, the proxy gains any salient divine abilities held by the patron deity as well as the powers and abilities of a rank 1 demigod. Without the requisite ability scores or divine ranks, the proxy may not be able to use all those powers and abilities. A deity may have more than one proxy, but it must lose 1 divine rank for each proxy it invests. A deity can retrieve a single divine rank as a standard action, and doing so does not require the physical presence of the proxy.

In other words, if a deity wishes to lose his divinity, they can just grant divine ranks to squirrels and snails until they're DR 0, at which point killing them is trivial.

[Mr Adventurer]

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/evensong.jpg (www.oglaf.com)

[danielxcutter]

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/evensong.jpg (www.oglaf.com)

If this forum had a page for Crowning Moments of Funny on TvTropes, that post would probably make the spot.