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MonkeySage
2016-12-24, 02:15 AM
Ok, so demons are the embodiment of chaotic evil; driven to destroy everything in sight. But my thought is, what exactly drives them to destroy? What profit motivates them to kill?

Succubi presumably get souls out of the deal, which would definitely be a big motivator... But if souls are off the table, and the souls of their victims are most likely going to a pretty good afterlife, then what else might motivate them?

I am totally overthinking this, yes, but still I figure this could be an interesting subject.

The motives of devils are pretty cut and dry; they almost always stand to gain something- removal of a rival or enemy, acquisition of a mortal soul, etc. Even the lowliest imp is on a mission to improve their station.

Daemons are simply trying to drag the world into bleak oblivion, or in some way advance themselves... I've always thought of them as kind of the worst manifestation of nihilism.

What do demons stand to gain by taking undamned lives, other than temporary sadistic thrills? Seems like it'd make more sense to use trickery, or to get those with murderous thoughts to act on those thoughts. The demon would definitely come out on top if they did this.

JNAProductions
2016-12-24, 02:16 AM
Ok, so demons are the embodiment of chaotic evil; driven to destroy everything in sight. But my thought is, what exactly drives them to destroy? What profit motivates them to kill?

Succubi presumably get souls out of the deal, which would definitely be a big motivator... But if souls are off the table, and the souls of their victims are most likely going to a pretty good afterlife, then what else might motivate them?

I am totally overthinking this, yes, but still I figure this could be an interesting subject.

The motives of devils are pretty cut and dry; they almost always stand to gain something- removal of a rival or enemy, acquisition of a mortal soul, etc. Even the lowliest imp is on a mission to improve their station.

Daemons are simply trying to drag the world into bleak oblivion, or in some way advance themselves... I've always thought of them as kind of the worst manifestation of nihilism.

What do demons stand to gain by taking undamned lives, other than temporary sadistic thrills? Seems like it'd make more sense to use trickery, or to get those with murderous thoughts to act on those thoughts. The demon would definitely come out on top if they did this.

Bolded the important bit. They're not exactly known for thinking ahead.

MonkeySage
2016-12-24, 02:22 AM
Fair enough, though a lot of them are highly intelligent. I guess what I meant is, why go for temporary destruction when they can do something more permanent? Succubi got that down, for example.

Deaxsa
2016-12-24, 03:38 AM
Fair enough, though a lot of them are highly intelligent. I guess what I meant is, why go for temporary destruction when they can do something more permanent? Succubi got that down, for example.

Because the concept is alien to them. They could not plan world domination any more than all the cockroaches of the world could. You must remember where the demon comes from: basically the embodiment a concept (luck demon, lust demon, starvation demon, etc). These are living, breathing qualities, not people. Now specific systems will probably try to make them fit in one way or another, but then you must look to the system for their reason.

Mastikator
2016-12-24, 03:40 AM
They're jerks. They don't gain anything, they go out of their way to be big 'ol meanie heads.

BWR
2016-12-24, 05:27 AM
Why does any evil person do what they do?
Enjoyment and power.

And what makes you think they don't use brains and trickery to make other people damn themselves? They are chaotic, not stupid. They are chaotic, not necessarily beings with no impulse control. They do not play well with others, they do not do causes other than themselves, and they do not care about anything but number 1. They are fully capable of complex planning and manipulation, they are fully capable of long-term plots, and they are capable of patience.
They are just very open to the idea of abandoning plots and plans if something better comes along, giving their entire attention to one thing to make it work rather than trying to keep multiple things going that may fail. They are very aware of how the direct approach is often more useful (and fun) than plotting merely for the sake of plotting. Lastly, while plots may work, there is often a ton of things that can go wrong, so rather than waste energy and time putting something together that may easily fail, they think more in terms of immediate gains and gratification than other evil exemplars. A bird in the hand, and all that.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-12-24, 05:39 AM
Fair enough, though a lot of them are highly intelligent. I guess what I meant is, why go for temporary destruction when they can do something more permanent? Succubi got that down, for example.

Because it's ****in' fun!!! That's seriously it. It's a little deeper, technically, but if you pinned one down and asked then that's the honest answer you get.

Technically, they're driven to it as surely as any mortal creature is driven to eat or reproduce. Setting it aside is as difficult to them as starving oneself would be to us. Except worse because it doesn't actually impede their ability to resume at any moment no matter how long they abstain.

Hawkstar
2016-12-24, 05:42 AM
Fair enough, though a lot of them are highly intelligent. I guess what I meant is, why go for temporary destruction when they can do something more permanent? Succubi got that down, for example.Because they can do both? it's not like they fear destruction. Party Vrock is in the house!

The entire purpose of a demon's existence is to keep people from having nice things. Yes, they're intelligent - but that just means they can be creative in pursuing their goals of screwing stuff up for everyone and everything around them.

They really just want to see the world burn.

Eno Remnant
2016-12-24, 05:47 AM
I'd suggest that part of it, the part that hasn't been covered yet, is prestige.

Let me paint you a picture: you're a reasonably powerful demon in the ever-changing Abyss, in which new layers constantly form and disappear, and there is constant fighting amongst the other demons to control these layers. Everyone's out for power, and they'll follow anyone who can give them more, with the dreams of one day brutally murdering them and taking all they own. If you, as this reasonably powerful demon, could boast to have razed a hundred villages, slain a dozen influential clerics, and desecrated the holiest altar of Pelor, all of the other demons would recognise and respect (read: fear) your power. They'd follow you, helping you to conquer a layer for yourself - staying obedient right up until the betrayal. But hey, how sweet will it be to rule a whole layer of the Abyss before you die? Getting to kill those who attempt to assassinate you in front of the others as an example is just a bonus.

Like devils, demons do what they do to make power plays. It's different in the case of demons because they have no set structure or order. Most of them blindly slaughter their kin to climb to the top of the heap, and will mindlessly destroy mortal creatures simply because it's fun. The more innovative and clever, however, recognise that mortals are weaker than demons (by-and-large), and that being known for doing horrible things on a large scale will intimidate other demons.

Of course, most of those demons are doomed to destruction anyway, but as mentioned, demonic goals are fairly basic - kill things until you're the strongest. It's how demon princes like Orcus got to where they were, and how they stay there: by being known as the most powerful, and ruthlessly crushing resistance.

Nifft
2016-12-24, 10:21 AM
Why do demons exist at all?

A) They're the shadows of emotionally-charged magic which is created when spellcasters use magic for evil reasons. This is why demons tend to have spell resistance: because they're made of magic. This is also why they're amenable to Planar Binding -- as remnants of an arcane caster's will, they have sympathetic arcane personality harmonics which summoners can exploit. Finally, it explains why they are simultaneously inhuman and all-too-human.

Plot Hook: "... and this is why the Church has a holy duty to monitor and control arcane heretics like yourself."


B) They are the living remnants of an ancient and powerful empire which suffered a doom worse than the Rain of Colorless Fire or the Invoked Devastation. Perhaps the Queen of Chaos was former mortal monarch whose battle against the oppressive Wind Dukes of Aaqa compelled her to seek horrible mutagenic magics. This is why there are "races" of demons, and why they don't necessarily get along with each other -- and also why so many demonic tools of social subversion exist. They're both a survival mechanism (to obtain more un-mutated biomass), and an advance infiltration exercise.

Plot Hook: "At last, the final secret is revealed! Now I shall ascend, and you fools are helpless to stop me!"


C) They are ancient biological weapons of war. Perhaps they were the creation of the Ur-Flan, before that terrible race destroyed their original homeworld. Perhaps they were the weapon that broke the ancient Aboleth hegemony in the world before this one -- a glance at Demogorgon's aquatic throne-plane certainly justifies that idea. In any case, they are now a weapon without a purpose... or are they? What about the next Aberration invasion? (Tsochar, Mindflayers, Grell, THOON, ...)

Plot Hook: "I will gladly sacrifice thousands of souls to save the remaining billion hearts and minds of mankind from those alien abominations."

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-24, 12:28 PM
This seems pretty specific to D&D; other games and settings have demons that aren't necessarily "the embodiment of chaos and evil," or indeed, doesn't even feature alignment.

That said, I generally go with the "alien mindset" notion. They're not human - where various compunctions to be social and compassionate exist in humans from a mix of nature and nurture, demons (and not just the D&D ones!) don't necessarily have that. It's hard to even imagine.

Pronounceable
2016-12-24, 12:41 PM
Demons feed on evil. They grow bigger by being eviler, all the way up to Demogorgon. Isn't that "canon"? Also they're literally made of evil and chaos, so don't need a reason.

That said, succubi should've never been demons in DnD and 4e did a smart job in removing them. Their seductive soul hunter thing is so completely divorced from the rest of demonic hordes it just looked weird. Souls are devil and especially nighthag business. Succubi should've been natives of Gray Waste, probably related to nighthags (or even straight up nighthags themselves).

Demons as embodiments of CE also should've never been placed in neat little boxes with labels and user manuals on them (on account of that being a ****ing dumb idea) but that's neither here nor there. At least they're not slaadi.

Remedy
2016-12-24, 01:15 PM
Oh, dear. We're back to vanilla D&D. I'd managed to make myself forget alignments existed for a moment, but it's all coming back now.

I like Exalted's explanation for why demons act the way they do, though it's worth noting that, if we're going to try to draw a parallel between D&D and Exalted (and they're very different), the word "demon" in Exalted would cover all varieties of "Evil Outsider", not just specifically the Chaotic Evil ones.

So in Exalted, demons are in no way, shape, or form "made of evil." They're spirits, not so different from the many thousands of spirits running around in the mortal world, except that the demons were trapped in Hell along with the world's versions of titans at the end of an ancient past war. Along with Hell being the sort of place where you have to be constantly paranoid to avoid being rended limb from limb without warning, the social systems put in place reward callousness and harshly punish charity, it maintains a horribly convoluted and strictly enforced set of taboos (which are mostly an excuse for higher-ranked demons to abuse lower-ranked ones at the drop of a hat), and to top it off there's a constant background noise of the sealed titans screaming about how everything in the mortal world and Heaven must be laid to ash.

And when the demons finally get to temporarily escape from Hell, it's usually under the heel of some callous sorcerer who literally fractures their mind and both physically and emotionally abuses them into being a supernaturally obedient slave and then throws the demon at whatever task is too dangerous or tedious for the sorcerer to want himself or a human servant to do.

Needless to say, when a demon has a chance to run away from all that? They want to enjoy themselves in whatever ways they know how and stay the hell away from, well, Hell. And where they grew up, which things are "fun" and which things are "awful" tend to get a bit mixed up relative to our own interpretation.

CharonsHelper
2016-12-24, 01:25 PM
Think of them like crack addicts. A crack addict can be highly intelligent, but that doesn't mean that he won't take another hit even though he knows that it's bad for him.

A demon wants the rush of the chaos/kill like a crack addict wants a hit. And he wants it right now!

DoomHat
2016-12-24, 01:39 PM
I like Exalted's explanation for why demons act the way they do, though it's worth noting that, if we're going to try to draw a parallel between D&D and Exalted (and they're very different), the word "demon" in Exalted would cover all varieties of "Evil Outsider", not just specifically the Chaotic Evil ones.

~sip~

Actually it's just a step deeper and yet simpler then all that, I think, which is why it's one of my favorite interpretations of the idea of demons. At their core, what motivates demons is that they are, by their nature alone, in unspeakable pain. As it turns out, this tends to also be the major motive of a lot of real life's villains.

They yearn to fill an emptiness that can't be satisfied, because they've been fundamentally and perhaps irreparably damaged. In the Exalted universe specifically, all demons are lesser manifestations of the Titans, and the Titans have been mutilated by the epic heroes of old. These physical and psychological wounds are engineered in such a way as to force them to turn in on themselves, and become trapped in prisons of their own flesh.

Demons don't "enjoy" inflicting pain and terror on others, so much as spreading misery merely dulls their own pain. Feeling "less bad" is the closest they can get anymore to actual comfort. And on that note, there's also the understandable resentment they feel toward anyone or anything else that, unlike them, can still have joy in their lives.

Nifft
2016-12-24, 02:05 PM
I like Exalted's explanation for why demons act the way they do, though it's worth noting that, if we're going to try to draw a parallel between D&D and Exalted (and they're very different), the word "demon" in Exalted would cover all varieties of "Evil Outsider", not just specifically the Chaotic Evil ones. Exalted's Fair Folk are that setting's chaos-flavored beings from Outside.

Exalted's Abyssals are that setting's murder-everyone "Chaotic Evil" beings from not-here.

Exalted's Demons are different, and not necessarily any kind of evil or chaotic.

So:
- There are "evil" things which are not demons.
- There are "demon" things which are not evil (i.e. most of them).

Remedy
2016-12-24, 02:55 PM
Exalted's Abyssals are that setting's murder-everyone "Chaotic Evil" beings from not-here.
Abyssals are human beings, and neither so easy to generalize nor really from not-here. Really, the supervillain Exalted are the Infernals according to the books themselves, but Word of God is that even they aren't, because nuance is good.


Exalted's Demons are different, and not necessarily any kind of evil or chaotic.
I pointed out the Chaotic thing. And demons are... Not necessarily malicious, but almost always harmful to people if given free reign. The alignment system doesn't really handle alien mindsets very well. (The alignment system doesn't handle anything well, but that discussion has been had a thousand times.) By D&D standards, Exalted demons would be capital-e Evil. That doesn't mean I would call them evil, or that most systems of quantifying morality would agree, but the question was about why demons engage in actions that D&D would quantify as Evil, and I found the Exalted perspective interesting.


So:
- There are "evil" things which are not demons.
I would hope that this is a given in all settings ever, unless the setting's only intelligent beings are demons.


- There are "demon" things which are not evil (i.e. most of them).
Again, it's the distinction between actual evil and D&D Evil that's causing any disagreement we might be having, I think.

Zale
2016-12-24, 04:42 PM
Well, in D&D:

Demons are literally evil made manifest. They are sin given physical form and sapience.

It's kind of odd to ask why the physical manifestations of evil are evil.

It's like going, "Why does fire hot?"

Fire elementals burn things because they're made of fire.
Demons want to do evil things because they're literally made of it.

Bohandas
2016-12-24, 06:55 PM
Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWYCS6k1IOA)

EDIT:
The writings of the Marquis de Sade may also be enlightening for this conversation

EDIT:

The music of GWAR is also explanatory:


"From what I've heard it's a pretty cool place
A sea of urine where rats eat your face
and a sadist like me can pursue his vocation
I'm goin' to hell because I need a vacation

We're gonna go to hell!
Toll the bell, we're goin' to hell!
Here we see the fruit of creation
Writing in slime. Blood sweetens our time
Here we seek our final salvation"
-Go To Hell
...

"But space teems with danger, the perils are countless
Enemies infinite, vengeance that's boundless!
Wars that are so fun you don't want to win!"
-Lust in Space
...

"Hatred of all things alive
War is all we know

They say war is a last resort
For me it's the only way
I have tried reading them poetry
It suits me better to slay
...
They say war is all we know
If only that were true
No matter how i work my schedule
There's always other things that i do"
-War is All We Know
...

"I want to murder everyone in the entire world
Every man and woman, every boy and every girl
Swallow up the air and earth and mutilate the worms
Kill the messenger who begs us to consider terms
...
The young are simply too dumb to live
the old are weak and unclean
the ones in the middle, they also must die
their ways are obtuse and obscene"
-Biledriver
...

"We saw the law that rules
Your lives is just a joke
'you shall not kill'?
don't make me laugh. Far from criminal, its craft.
'thou shall not steal'?
Come on get real
Do what you will, do as you feel
...
Your God's long dead
So don't waste your time
On overzealous hypocrites
Who call chaos a crime

Eat the rich
and Kill the poor
Worship always
Your masters, Gwar"
-Parting Shot
...

"In the fortress of GWAR, much torment remains
Despite all of the bodies that had been hacked in twain
So many had died in the vicious campaign
That their femurs alone made a fine mountain

The Master was no longer GWAR's sovereign
Of wealth and women they had none to gain
What goal was left for them to attain
So Oderus did call for conclave
...
booze, drugs food, 400 mule-loads high
...
Their will, to journey and slay without plan
Bring siege and terror to the cities of man"
-song of words
...

"Did you ever stay up late wondering if you'd been screwed?
Or ever really know how much money they're making off of you?
...
Formula,
we deplore your
Formula,
we abhor your
Formula,
...
We were sent here to destroy you
...
(Formula), your machine
(Formula), I find obscene
(Formula), know what I mean?"
-Nudged
...

"Welcome to the slaughter, what are going to do?
What will be your epitaph, when we get done with you?
Are you gonna cry for your momma, or are you gonna have a good time?
...
It all gets pretty crazy, bedlam all around
Anarchy, chaos rule the street, it's a RagNaRok party town!
Your head it is a turnin', your brain it is a burnin'
As your sanity slips away
The final hour's here, now grab yourself a beer
You're only king for one day
Go on and get a gun, we're gonna have some fun
Snuffin' out some fools, and breakin' all the rules
The only rule is winnin', that means a lot of sinnin'
Sinnin' feels so fine, you're running out of time!
It's always one hell of a party, when RagNaRok rolls around
RagNaRok N Roll, RagNaRok N Roll
It's time to trash the planet, RagNaRok battleground"
-RagNaRok
...

and also the entirety of their song "Metal Metal Land"

...
EDIT:

"The cycle of torment the pleasure of sin
...
I rode a tide of vengeance that could never be denied
Hail the crimson blur - violence has arrived!"
-Abyss of Woe

FabulousFizban
2016-12-24, 07:54 PM
Boredom. Eternity is a long time

Bohandas
2016-12-24, 08:13 PM
That said, succubi should've never been demons in DnD and 4e did a smart job in removing them. Their seductive soul hunter thing is so completely divorced from the rest of demonic hordes it just looked weird. Souls are devil and especially nighthag business. Succubi should've been natives of Gray Waste, probably related to nighthags (or even straight up nighthags themselves).

or Dal Quor

gkathellar
2016-12-24, 08:39 PM
Fiends are evil because fiends are evil. Their physical bodies are formed from the thought-matter of the Lower Planes. Their forms express different facets of evil, but all fiends are outgrowths of a grand, platonic idea. A dretch is wretched cruelty, bitterness, and resentment. A kyton gives form to the desire to ruin, cage, and render invalid. Succubi are coercive, corrupting sexuality given form. A balor is a swirl of hate and rage and the essence of Impaling Things On A Spike, On Fire, In Pain. Dagon looks like You Dying In The Lightless Abyssal Depths, and you only see an eel monster because seeing it involves dying in that way. Pale Night is censored by reality itself, because it is the universe collapsing under the weight of infinite evil and chaos. Fiends do these things because they are these things, because not doing them is like not metabolizing for a human. As a wiser man than I once said: "made of malecules and cruelectrons."

In Planescape, anyway.

In general, the answer depends entirely on the game and setting in question, so you'll need to be more specific than just saying demons.

RazorChain
2016-12-24, 09:08 PM
As I'm running a game that happens in medieval Europe I'm going answer this question in one word: Dualism

Bohandas
2016-12-24, 09:28 PM
because it's fun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dczktvmmZfo)

Lord Raziere
2016-12-24, 09:58 PM
Because they're inherently selfish beings who can't think beyond their own desires. Evil beings like Demons simply lack any real empathy or ability to think of what other people want. Sure they can make demonic deals that seem to be offering what you want, but in that situation they are just projecting their own desire for revenge/power/greed/whatever onto you and think that your experiencing the same thing they are.

For example:
A demon is attacking a random innocent person
Innocent: "Stop hurting me! I don't want to be killed!"
Demon: "Oh, ok, so you want the power to kill anyone who might try to kill you? Thats what I wanted to when I was mortal! Here, sign this contract to become a demon like me and you can gain power to kill anyone and thus not have to experience this situation again!"
Innocent: "No! I don't want to be a demon!"
Demon: "......Your weird. I'mma kill you, because you clearly want to die weak, talking like that."
He then kills the innocent.

Basically they are bunch of psychopathic megalomaniacs, other demons are just threats to their own desires or fools to manipulate to get their own desires, the difference between one or the other being almost nonexistent. As you go higher up in the demonic hierarchy, the only difference is that the demon lords are paranoid psychopathic megalomaniacs who learn to fake civility when it suits their purposes and are constantly working to stay on top of demonic politics where you can trust literally no one, especially not the people who claim to be trusted lieutenants or whatever because that just means they're playing the long con, to the point where some demons look forward to facing paladins as enemies, because paladins seem like such an easy, obvious straightforward foe in comparison, no uncertainty, no worries about whether the paladin will "cheat" or do something clever, they're paladins after all. What could they possibly do that a demon in all their cheating, willingness to backstab, grab whatever kind of power they can, could not?

and why not have some fun on the mortal plane where people are too caught in this weird "kindness and caring" thing to properly defend themselves. I mean, they don't even constantly plot every day to kill their next door neighbor just in case they betray you first, how can these people possibly be strong, if they don't do something so basic? Demons such as them might as well be invincible among mortals. From a demons point of view, everyone else is a fool for having anything remotely resembling civilization, you can't argue with them on it, because only a fool would open their mouth to argue the logic of it when the demon will just kill you and consider it winning the argument because you left yourself open to attack.

Really its not a question of "why?" its a question of "why not?" Demons think that by having power they can do whatever they want and if they're more powerful, that is exactly what they will do. If they're less powerful, then they are cowards who want to not die, will obey until they betray you behind their back and be free again. They will always betray you, and won't think anything abnormal about it. What we consider insane, evil, psychotic and pretty much a horrible way to live your life is just normal to them. Thats why they're demons and need to be fought.

Kane0
2016-12-25, 06:40 PM
I remember a bit of lore thrown around once that seemed pretty obscure, though it might have been non-canonical.
Essentially the abyss and all its infinite fiends can be traced to a particular crystalline shard that at some point lost a few bits, and the 'radiation' from it breaking is the spawning point of the abyss and its denizens. The lost bits adhered to random souls so demons commonly go around searching for them. Violence just happens to be their preferred means of playing the lucky dip game.

Fun explanation, but i don't think its true beyond that particular game

JNAProductions
2016-12-25, 06:41 PM
I remember a bit of lore thrown around once that seemed pretty obscure, though it might have been non-canonical.
Essentially the abyss and all its infinite fiends can be traced to a particular crystalline shard that at some point lost a few bits, and the 'radiation' from it breaking is the spawning point of the abyss and its denizens. The lost bits adhered to random souls so demons commonly go around searching for them. Violence just happens to be their preferred means of playing the lucky dip game.

Fun explanation, but i don't think its true beyond that particular game

In 4E, at least, the abyss was made from a shard of pure evil that was dropped in the planes.

Millstone85
2016-12-25, 07:38 PM
In 4E, at least, the abyss was made from a shard of pure evil that was dropped in the planes.Dropped in the Elemental Chaos, thus making demons a subtype of elementals and the Abyss a black-hole-like whirlpool under the very forge of reality. IIRC, the shard itself came from another universe and had been given to a god for him to throw it into the Astral Sea. However, the god (probably Tharizdun) decided to alter the deal. That means demons were a bit Far-Realm-y too. Still IIRC, Asmodeus would later steal some of the shard to create the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea.

That was the non-FR lore. In 4e FR, there was no shard of evil, but Asmodeus temporarily ended the Blood War by throwing the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. I guess it made travel between the Abyss and the Nine Hells more difficult.

I was a new player at the time, and curious about D&D lore. It took me way too long to figure out the conflicting canons. :smallconfused:

Pleh
2016-12-25, 08:09 PM
You might be making the mistake of presuming a motive is an accurate description of their character. In literary terms, demons often represent the darker aspects of humanity. They are the fabled incarnations of our own destructive desires. It's not why do they do what they do, but they are why we do what we do. Assigning motive is to attribute human qualities to inhuman characters. Perhaps demons destroy the same way fire does. It has no motive to do so, just a destructive nature that can't be separated from its existence.

Tiktakkat
2016-12-25, 10:22 PM
Ok, so demons are the embodiment of chaotic evil; driven to destroy everything in sight. But my thought is, what exactly drives them to destroy? What profit motivates them to kill?

It makes it hurt less for awhile.

Being a demon is pain.
The Abyss is emptiness, and demons embody that.

Everything that is not an individual demon is experienced by that demon as a painful loss; something that has been taken from it.
They can reduce that pain, for a bit, for a time, by absorbing "their" essence back into themselves.
Typically, that involves killing and assorted mayhem, particularly among the weaker demons who do not have the intellect or will to control themselves. However, even greater demons suffer from that pain of loss, and at times lose control and indulge in violence.
And indeed, even the most powerful demon lords and princes, even those with worshippers, always experience such pain, even in relation to their worshippers. No matter how much they are worshipped, the worshipper is still separate, and thus still "stealing" some portion of the demon.

In general, all of the lower planes operate on that principle of pain, albeit with different manifestations. Demons experience it on a more comprehensive basis than any others, and thus are more inclined to random violence.
Whether that is "better" or "worse" than the tyrannical violence of the devils or the life-denying violence of the daemons is generally subjective based on which is trying to slaughter you at the moment.
Ultimately though, it always comes back to the pain, and how, for demons, destruction makes it hurt less for a little while.

Bohandas
2016-12-25, 10:43 PM
Everything that is not an individual demon is experienced by that demon as a painful loss; something that has been taken from it.

No, that's more like an Ayn Rand protagonist.

Demons do what they do either out of compulsion or reflex, for the thrill of it, out of boredom, or to demonstrate the fragility of our routines and morals a la The Joker in The Dark Knight (with the ones earlier or later on the list taking precedence correspondingly to whether the demon has low or high intelligence, respectively)

Arbane
2016-12-26, 02:09 AM
Assuming we're talking about D&D Chaotic Evil guys, let's ask the expert on Chaotic Evil: "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgzssDOTMXs).

One thing people tend to forget about demons is that they're not pure evil, that's Daemons - they're Evil and CHAOS. Demons are fundamentally offended by civilized creatures' efforts to shield themselves from the screaming madness of reality by inventing things like 'laws' and 'civilization' and 'manners' and 'empathy', which they see as repulsive, hypocritical, and most importantly, futile. Most demons are fine with tearing these things down from the outside as rampaging berserkers, but a few of the smarter types, like succubi, like to manipulate their way into a position inside a hierarchy, so they can rip it to bits from within, making an important philosophical point as a mighty empire collapses in flames and blood. Yes, they may be bad at long-term planning, but their 'short term' can be measured in millennia.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. Admittedly, for most sentients it'll end up being the freedom to die screaming or starving, but it's still freedom, and that's precious, isn't it?

Yukitsu
2016-12-26, 03:07 AM
I view them as being basically elementals. They're not really sentient in the "free will" sense of things, they're just big lumps of physical evil/chaos that are there to do evil and chaotic things because it's what they were created by their plane and their deities to do.

Pugwampy
2016-12-26, 04:22 AM
Babylon 5 series had an interesting truth on angels and demons


"The shadow beings" act the way they do to premote galactic evolution through survival of the fittest . Strong are rewarded and glorified . Weak are culled or subjugated .

Lets be honest , Demons and Devils do no more or less than what Mother Nature does . :smallbiggrin:

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-26, 09:23 AM
Assuming we're talking about D&D Chaotic Evil guys, let's ask the expert on Chaotic Evil: "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgzssDOTMXs)."Yes. Totally. A plan intricate enough to seed hospitals, boats, fat dudes, and warehouses with masses of explosives without the authorities catching on or you blowing yourself up by accident; as well as acquire military-grade weapons, the aforementioned explosives, and a bus - again, without folks catching onto you - and use them with military precision; frankly, you look like a guy who plans way, way too much."

Bohandas
2016-12-26, 10:42 AM
It's the later half of the speech that's important

EDIT:
Actually, Alfred's explanation of The Joker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMb9OuDR-0I) might ultimately be more instructive

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-26, 11:04 AM
Actually, Alfred's explanation of The Joker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMb9OuDR-0I) might ultimately be more instructive

I'll leave it to wiser men than myself…


It doesn't even make sense in its original pop cultural context. Oh yeah, Alfred, I'm sure that bandit leader was intercepting shipments of bribes and tributes to tribal leaders without trying to liquidate them for profit was motivated by sport rather than any kind of opposition to either British imperialist or military dictatorship agendas.

Urrggh, I've got to stop right there, otherwise I will rant endlessly about how disturbing I've always found a scene in which Alfred not only openly admits involvement with regimes in Burma of all places, but tries to use such to teach somebody a lesson predicated on something other than not involving oneself in oppressive regimes.

(Not even getting into stuff about how he may be an actual war criminal)

DoomHat
2016-12-26, 11:19 AM
Everyone seems to also be forgetting Batman's final critique, "You just want to prove that everyone in the world is just as ugly as you."

The Joker is a demon, and he is painfully, desperately, alone. He wants to see the world hurt because it's constantly hurting him back. Remember, part of his endgame involved provoking Batman to kill him.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-26, 11:28 AM
I'm not forgetting anything.

Bohandas
2016-12-26, 11:39 AM
It doesn't even make sense in its original pop cultural context. Oh yeah, Alfred, I'm sure that bandit leader was intercepting shipments of bribes and tributes to tribal leaders without trying to liquidate them for profit was motivated by sport rather than any kind of opposition to either British imperialist or military dictatorship agendas.

Urrggh, I've got to stop right there, otherwise I will rant endlessly about how disturbing I've always found a scene in which Alfred not only openly admits involvement with regimes in Burma of all places, but tries to use such to teach somebody a lesson predicated on something other than not involving oneself in oppressive regimes.

Which brings me to another point. Opposition to tyranny is actually a semi-canonical montivation of demons. Fanatical violent opposition. That's the crux of the Blood War. They're likely more technically proficient than the Eladrins in this regard as well; rendering an area uninhabited and uninhabitable more or less insures against oppression in that area, even if only because no one is left to be oppressed or to oppress others.

EDIT:
"in all of the whole human race
Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two
There's the one staying put in his proper place
And the one with his foot in the other one's face
Look at me, Mrs Lovett, look at you.

No, we all deserve to die
Even you, Mrs. Lovett, Even I.
Because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
For the rest of us death will be a relief
We all deserve to die."
-Sweeny Todd, Epiphany

Lord Raziere
2016-12-26, 12:34 PM
"Yes. Totally. A plan intricate enough to seed hospitals, boats, fat dudes, and warehouses with masses of explosives without the authorities catching on or you blowing yourself up by accident; as well as acquire military-grade weapons, the aforementioned explosives, and a bus - again, without folks catching onto you - and use them with military precision; frankly, you look like a guy who plans way, way too much."

Given that Lawful places so much importance and being consistent and following your own rules, I'm pretty sure hypocrisy is a Chaotic trait. Given that its breaking your own rules for whatever you desire. Joker is probably just being hypocritical.

DoomHat
2016-12-26, 04:05 PM
Given that Lawful places so much importance and being consistent and following your own rules, I'm pretty sure hypocrisy is a Chaotic trait. Given that its breaking your own rules for whatever you desire. Joker is probably just being hypocritical.

Or outright lying to a man he knows is too delirious with pain to question what he really wants to hear.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-26, 04:39 PM
Or outright lying to a man he knows is too delirious with pain to question what he really wants to hear.Or just using a line the director thought sounded cool because it'll be weeks before folks on the Internet start to question it? :smalltongue:

DoomHat
2016-12-26, 05:11 PM
Or just using a line the director thought sounded cool because it'll be weeks before folks on the Internet start to question it? :smalltongue:

You're no fun. Count NoFun, that's what they call you.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-26, 10:49 PM
Trying to look into Nolan's "Batman" grimdarkology for any sort of coherent point -- philosophical, ethical, storytelling, or otherwise -- is probably an exercise in futility.

It's nothing but a combination of "what sounded edgelordiest today on the set" and bad pop-philosophy. The Dark Hipster.

DoomHat
2016-12-27, 12:37 AM
Trying to look into Nolan's "Batman" grimdarkology for any sort of coherent point -- philosophical, ethical, storytelling, or otherwise -- is probably an exercise in futility.

It's nothing but a combination of "what sounded edgelordiest today on the set" and bad pop-philosophy. The Dark Hipster.

I have no refutation for this, save that I personally enjoy spinning context and interest out from effectively nothing. So sue me, it's a hobby.

Bohandas
2016-12-27, 01:01 AM
Trying to look into Nolan's "Batman" grimdarkology for any sort of coherent point -- philosophical, ethical, storytelling, or otherwise -- is probably an exercise in futility.

It's nothing but a combination of "what sounded edgelordiest today on the set" and bad pop-philosophy. The Dark Hipster.

So I suppose I can assume that you don't like any of Marvel's superhero films either, as they tend to be much worse in this regard than anything by DC.

Lord Raziere
2016-12-27, 01:47 AM
So I suppose I can assume that you don't like any of Marvel's superhero films either, as they tend to be much worse in this regard than anything by DC.

They are? Are we seeing the same ones? I've watched Deadpool, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Avengers Movie and they seem to be pretty focused on jokes and having fun, but I might just be misremembering? There are so many, I wish I could watch them all. Superheroes is like my favorite genre yet it seems too impenetrable to ever really get around to actually watching or reading most of it....

Mutazoia
2016-12-27, 03:16 AM
Short answer: Because they are young and stupid.

Longer answer:

Demons, like we see on TV and in the movies, don't really have a long game. They possess some kid, make her vomit pea soup and say bad words, and that's pretty much it. Sure, they torment the soul of the person they are possessing, such as taking an innocent school girl, and making her say lewd things. But that's Hollywood evil..that's Howard Stern, shock jock evil. That's beginner level evil.

True evil would be your best friend, and not only convince you to damn yourself, but make you believe that doing so was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hell, true evil would get you to set up some sort of pyramid scheme for damnation, and get you your own infomercial to sell it.

A more experienced demon would possess the innocent school girl, and use her to seduce adults, tormenting the girl and damning the adults at the same time. Very experienced demons have a game plan that spans decads, if not centuries. Sometimes the plan will involve setting the younger demons loose to wreak short term chaos to provoke a reaction somewhere else....the basic butterfly of chaos theory, using actual chaos. (I could cite some real-world examples of such a concept, if it didn't violate the rules of the forum.)

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-27, 10:06 AM
You're no fun. Count NoFun, that's what they call you.I'm not the one with the username "Max Killjoy." :smalltongue:

Bohandas
2016-12-27, 10:49 AM
They are? Are we seeing the same ones? I've watched Deadpool, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Avengers Movie and they seem to be pretty focused on jokes and having fun, but I might just be misremembering? There are so many, I wish I could watch them all. Superheroes is like my favorite genre yet it seems too impenetrable to ever really get around to actually watching or reading most of it....

I was actually thinking more of the old X-Men movies and Spiderman movies which, while in many ways a different kind of overly dramatic and overly philosophical, were still overly dramatic and overly philosophical

Bohandas
2016-12-27, 10:51 AM
Short answer: Because they are young and stupid.

Longer answer:

Demons, like we see on TV and in the movies, don't really have a long game. They possess some kid, make her vomit pea soup and say bad words, and that's pretty much it. Sure, they torment the soul of the person they are possessing, such as taking an innocent school girl, and making her say lewd things. But that's Hollywood evil..that's Howard Stern, shock jock evil. That's beginner level evil.

She also pushed several people out of third story windows in that film

Mutazoia
2016-12-27, 11:02 AM
She also pushed several people out of third story windows in that film

Yup...still rather short gameish though.

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-27, 02:37 PM
First mistake is the idea that demons think the way humans do, or rational beings do. Demons are literally formed out of pain, torment, sin, and death. They are literally coagulated bad stuff that happened.

Think of Ghostbusters 2. I'm sure that is painful for some to remember, your mileage may vary, but there was a river of slime made out of the bad feelings of the people of New York. That is the Abyss. Demons are born of such primordial evilness.

Sure once born they have a range of free will and thought, but they are not bound by the same instincts or even logic that we are. If one were to compare a demon to a human, you would have to consider a human at that point where they have relented their will to their id, giving into it. That is a demon, but they are like that at all times, they can never be pulled out of it.

Keep in mind that a demon is bound to evil as much as an angel is bound to good. A demon is compelled to take advantage of a situation. A demon will not resist a chance to torture something because he doesn't feel like it. He ALWAYS feels like it. He's basically addicted to it. Only their self preservation prevents it them from doing it at any given point. Demons, like angels, are sort of sad creatures in a way.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-27, 03:11 PM
First mistake is the idea that demons think the way humans do, or rational beings do. Demons are literally formed out of pain, torment, sin, and death. They are literally coagulated bad stuff that happened.

Think of Ghostbusters 2. I'm sure that is painful for some to remember, your mileage may vary, but there was a river of slime made out of the bad feelings of the people of New York. That is the Abyss. Demons are born of such primordial evilness.

Sure once born they have a range of free will and thought, but they are not bound by the same instincts or even logic that we are. If one were to compare a demon to a human, you would have to consider a human at that point where they have relented their will to their id, giving into it. That is a demon, but they are like that at all times, they can never be pulled out of it.

Keep in mind that a demon is bound to evil as much as an angel is bound to good. A demon is compelled to take advantage of a situation. A demon will not resist a chance to torture something because he doesn't feel like it. He ALWAYS feels like it. He's basically addicted to it. Only their self preservation prevents it them from doing it at any given point. Demons, like angels, are sort of sad creatures in a way.

So despite often having higher INT (or similar) ratings in many games, demons and angels if viewed this way do not have free will and are therefore not intelligent, sapient creatures as such.

Hawkstar
2016-12-27, 03:12 PM
I'd say that Demons are malevolence incarnate (Along with some of their mortal servants). Their intelligence is not a matter of free will and choice, but as tools to exercise their malevolence.

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-27, 03:56 PM
So despite often having higher INT (or similar) ratings in many games, demons and angels if viewed this way do not have free will and are therefore not intelligent, sapient creatures as such.

They are sapient, they have some free will, but they are bound to a degree to their nature. In fact, I could imagine many demons hate mortals for their freedom of choice. It's more of a compulsion I imagine than anything else. I also imagine that the more powerful a demon, the more control they have over these compulsions, but even if they have control they have no innate desire to deny themselves, they just do it because they see more potential in holding off for a bit.

At least that's my read of demons.

Millstone85
2016-12-27, 06:22 PM
So despite often having higher INT (or similar) ratings in many games, demons and angels if viewed this way do not have free will and are therefore not intelligent, sapient creatures as such.I do like the idea of angels as celestial robots, originating from a place just one or two steps removed from Mechanus. That does not make them any less intelligent or sapient. But it does raise the question of whether or not a goodness that is neither tempted nor chosen can be the genuine article. Then again, fallen angels are a common trope.

Similarly, there is a cost with making demons too much like elementals. Can evil incarnate be a creature without choice or chance for redemption?

Hawkstar
2016-12-27, 06:33 PM
So despite often having higher INT (or similar) ratings in many games, demons and angels if viewed this way do not have free will and are therefore not intelligent, sapient creatures as such.

Why is Free Will mandatory for Intelligence or Sapience? They have strong problem-solving skills, but no empathy and often little care for their morality. But demons LOVE to make mortals and the Forces of Virtue believe that Demons can be good, because for every 'redeemed' Demon, there are a hundred more that pretend to be to cause even greater damage, and millions allowed to act with near-impunity because their motives are questioned instead of greeted with the proper answer.

TheCountAlucard
2016-12-27, 06:40 PM
I wouldn't word it as them "lacking free will" so much as "being products of their nature and upbringing and environment" - humans are such, too, and I'd expect that just shy of a hundred percent of the time, a hypothetical human born in the Abyss and raised by demons would be chaotic evil.

I mean, let's face it, you can scream from the rooftops all you want about how you have free will, but tomorrow you're going to get on that bus or get in your car and go to school or work.

Max_Killjoy
2016-12-27, 08:32 PM
I wouldn't word it as them "lacking free will" so much as "being products of their nature and upbringing and environment" - humans are such, too, and I'd expect that just shy of a hundred percent of the time, a hypothetical human born in the Abyss and raised by demons would be chaotic evil.

I mean, let's face it, you can scream from the rooftops all you want about how you have free will, but tomorrow you're going to get on that bus or get in your car and go to school or work.

1) Every person makes that choice, some more consciously than others. Some of us wake up every day and lie there, and have to internally go through why we're getting up and getting cleaned up and going to work.
2) Don't confuse heavily weighted circumstances with lack of the potential to make a different choice, and thus a lack of free will. Each of us COULD make that other choice, and every day some of us do.

Lord Raziere
2016-12-27, 09:57 PM
1) Every person makes that choice, some more consciously than others. Some of us wake up every day and lie there, and have to internally go through why we're getting up and getting cleaned up and going to work.
2) Don't confuse heavily weighted circumstances with lack of the potential to make a different choice, and thus a lack of free will. Each of us COULD make that other choice, and every day some of us do.

Oh hey a thing I actually agree with Max on.

Yeah, if we really nothing but products of our environment, no change would happen at all because we wouldn't take any risks. When humans have taken risks all the time. Every time you try a new food? you take a risk that you might not like it. Every time you go somewhere new, you take the risk you might not like that, and when people set out to sail to other places, they take the risk of being lost as sea or not having enough food to get back, things like that. Yet humans have taken risks time and again and have found benefits from something different because they took that risk. You learn things from taking such risks and figuring out whether or not that was a good risk to take.

Every time you go to a new culture and learn about it? You take a lot of risks. But there are people who've done it and liked absorbing the culture even if its not their own, and enjoyed the experience. That calculation of risk vs. reward wouldn't exist if we didn't have free will, and weren't willing to take a risk on something we have no idea about, because its an environment we have no idea about. If we were pure products of the environment, no risks would be taken because we'd keep to whats safe always, instead of eventually trying something new. Its just that, any smart person knows to only choose risky options strategically, when they have a good calculation of whether or not its worth it. Otherwise you go with the safe option so that you can keep benefiting from it. Its not about being a product of an environment, so much as knowing what you can safely do, and thinking about whether or not you want to take a risk and the costs associated with it, and in some environments one can see good reasons for leaving it because they'd rather take one risk over another.

For the purposes of this thread? the Abyss? the Demons? Its a place full of risks. More than anywhere. You risk any demon you see betraying you. You risk them backstabbing you just for being there. You risk so much just by living on the same plane as demons. Which means that demons are uncommonly high risk-takers. Chaotic in general seems really ok with taking lots of risks, but Evil is more risky because the ideal being aimed for inherently antagonizes other people, while Good's ideal being aimed for is inherently trying to cooperate which is less risky than Evil. There are a lot of reasons to leave the Abyss even if your a demon, because no one values each other there, they're just disposable tools for one another, so no reason to trust, no reason form any bonds, no safety, no stability. Not a place I'd see many people wanting to go to, or stay in.

Hawkstar
2016-12-27, 11:15 PM
Oh hey a thing I actually agree with Max on.

Yeah, if we really nothing but products of our environment, no change would happen at all because we wouldn't take any risks. When humans have taken risks all the time. Every time you try a new food? you take a risk that you might not like it. Every time you go somewhere new, you take the risk you might not like that, and when people set out to sail to other places, they take the risk of being lost as sea or not having enough food to get back, things like that. Yet humans have taken risks time and again and have found benefits from something different because they took that risk. You learn things from taking such risks and figuring out whether or not that was a good risk to take. Taking risks is not the same as free will (in the anti-deterministic definition). Neither is 'making decisions', though it gets harder to model complex decision-making as a deterministic (not fatalistic or 'free will') process, due to the sophistication. A penchant for risk-taking is very much a 'product of the environment'.

Stealth Marmot
2016-12-28, 05:32 AM
I wouldn't word it as them "lacking free will" so much as "being products of their nature and upbringing and environment" - humans are such, too, and I'd expect that just shy of a hundred percent of the time, a hypothetical human born in the Abyss and raised by demons would be chaotic evil.

I mean, let's face it, you can scream from the rooftops all you want about how you have free will, but tomorrow you're going to get on that bus or get in your car and go to school or work.

I disagree with this assessment. I think that humans and other "mortal" races, if born in the Abyss, would be much more likely to rebel against being evil, just as they would be more likely to go evil if they were raised in celestial areas.

It would still be relatively rare, but I think that outsider races would be simply beyond the ability to fathom going against their nature, while a mortal race would likely be, if nothing else, curious.

Millstone85
2016-12-28, 08:25 AM
So now, here is my answer.

Fiends were never meant to be strong. The only fiends ought to be lemures, larvae, manes and other such miserable creatures, scarred and weighted down by the sins of a previous existence.

But something went wrong. Perhaps some entity gave these damned souls the means to torture each other, for added irony, and it snowballed from there. Perhaps damnation was the first curse and, like many curses, it eventually developed a hunger for more victims. Perhaps evil paid unto evil is just more evil, or at least no crime deserves endless punishment. Perhaps repeated attempts to use the power of the Lower Planes, done by mortals and gods alike, eventually broke the cosmic machine.

And now fiends rival celestials in power. However, that is only for as long as they serve the cause of evil. An archdevil who repents does not become any sort of angel, but goes back to eternal torment as a lemure. A demon lord who stops seeking greater and greater infamies would similarly turn back into a manes. This is the primary reason why fiends do what they do.

Past a certain point, you either face retaliation or you keep on making life worse for others.

Mystral
2016-12-28, 08:32 AM
You're approaching this from the wrong angle.

Don't look for their motivation in what they have to gain and what their profit might be. Demons are not collectively driven by long term plans and profit, they are driven by their nature. They are made up of the primal force of chaotic evil. While mortals stive for what benefits them, the creatures of the outer planes strive for what furthers the goal of their alignment, and following that, the benefit of their own race.

By causing indiscriminate destruction and chaos, demons cause even more despair and confusion. The ultimate goal is not to directly collect souls, but to change the world in such a hellhole that they feel right at home. And, once a place gets bad enough, it can then slip into the grasp of the abyss and perhaps become part of it.

In short, creatures of the outer planes want to shape the material planes in the image of their home. That is what drives them.

Individual demons can be highly methodical and have long term plans and ambitions. They act in their own interest and to further their ambitions while stopping anyone from stabbing them in the back. It's their methods that are chaotic evil and cause chaos.

Bohandas
2016-12-28, 09:30 AM
1) Every person makes that choice, some more consciously than others. Some of us wake up every day and lie there, and have to internally go through why we're getting up and getting cleaned up and going to work.
2) Don't confuse heavily weighted circumstances with lack of the potential to make a different choice, and thus a lack of free will. Each of us COULD make that other choice, and every day some of us do.

There's an implicit false interdependence inherent in the term "free will"; predetermination does not necessarily also imply a lack of will

Millstone85
2016-12-28, 10:22 AM
While my answer and that of Mystral might seem diametrically opposed, I think them compatible.

Every plane of existence has a drive to turn the rest of the multiverse into more of itself. Some creatures would only think of themselves as cogs in such a process (e.g. modrons) or act solely on instinct (e.g. slaadi). But other creatures would require a more personal motivation to go along with the plan(e). In the heavens, it would be the conviction that their world is, well, good. That it is the right state of things to promote. On the other side, it would be a mix of cruel, selfish and desperate motives, such as the bully-or-victim situation I described.

IntelectPaladin
2016-12-28, 10:32 AM
I saw the title of this one, so I've decided to just give an answer without reading any other post.
Again.
I'll put it simply.
Because they are evil.
I can't make any more simple. To do so would require the use of crayon.
They don't honestly have a why. It's what they are. Pure and deliberate evil.
Don't try to think of them as sentients who chose evil, main because they didn't even get a choice,
Its just natural to them. As natural as breathing is for us.
Or is it unnatural? Hmm.
I'm sure many people can give quite a lot of complicated reasons for either or any argument,
but I feel that this basic fact need at least be acknowledged.
Cut me some slack, I'm typing this rather early. I'm sure the more-awake me will cringe at this.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

Frozen_Feet
2016-12-28, 11:19 AM
Regarding "free will" and "sapience": these are not requirements of one another. They are orthogonal qualities. Humans in real life are the very definition of "sapient", but whether or not we actually have "free will" is debatable. In fantastic settings, the line can be even less clear, or in some cases, it is known that humans and potential other "sapients" lack "free will", being bound to fate, deterministic laws of nature etc.

I, personally, prefer demons and devils as natural evil incarnate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil). Which means they indeed aren't moral agents in the same sense as humans, regardless of whether they are perceived to have "free will".

I also view "free will" and "freedom" in general as spectrums. A human may be able to choose whether to be kind or mean to another human, but a human cannot choose to see or not to see the ultraviolet spectrum; by contrast, a demon may be able to choose to see things a human cannot, or choose not to, but cannot choose to be kind. Both are limitations of the physical reality of beign a human or demon, respectively. I find it to not follow that all sapient beings ought to have all capabilities of humans, or vice versa.

hamishspence
2016-12-28, 11:28 AM
demons LOVE to make mortals and the Forces of Virtue believe that Demons can be good, because for every 'redeemed' Demon, there are a hundred more that pretend to be to cause even greater damage

I've heard this many times - but I've not seen any in-universe D&D material supporting it though.

Millstone85
2016-12-28, 01:02 PM
I, personally, prefer demons and devils as natural evil incarnate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil). Which means they indeed aren't moral agents in the same sense as humans, regardless of whether they are perceived to have "free will".And I prefer to leave that role to elementals. They are the forest fires and volcanoes, the storms and tornadoes, the floods and tsunamis, the avalanches and earthquakes, etc. that do not care if smart apes happen to live there and, despite the personification, should not be expected to. Meanwhile, demons and devils are moral evil incarnate.

hamishspence
2016-12-28, 01:11 PM
There's a strong theme in the Demonomicon and Fiendish Codex book 1, that at least one type of demon- tanar'ri - are, at the core, chaotic evil mortal souls. They might have bodies made of "Chaotic Evil energy" - they might have lost all their mortal memories - but the mortal soul is what everything else is built on.

Frozen_Feet
2016-12-28, 01:28 PM
Which would mean Millstone85's interpretation is correct and in D&D, demons are manifestations of human vice.

hamishspence
2016-12-28, 01:35 PM
It's a bit of both - part of it is "mortal vice" and part, a specific mortal soul. Possibly, it's the non-evil bit of said soul (if all souls, no matter how evil, contain tiny amounts of good) that makes it possible for redeemed fiends to exist in the first place - that nonevil bit is fed somehow, and grows, until the soul as a whole becomes net "non-evil".

Demogorgon's "vice" was mortal fears.

Kami2awa
2016-12-29, 03:41 AM
I agree with sadism as a reason, and one often overlooked when creating villains. Some beings will do wrong and cause suffering simply because they enjoy it, and probably laugh at those who go so far as to try to justify their behaviour.

Bohandas
2017-01-12, 02:35 AM
Sadism, schadenfredude, and a twisted sense of humor.

and rage. also rage.

NichG
2017-01-12, 03:02 AM
Underneath all of this is a particularly difficult and very broad question - why does anybody care about anything? If you start with very specific things, the explanations get more general ('I care about doing my job because I need to eat', 'I care about eating because I need to survive', 'I care about surviving because existing is better than not existing', 'I prefer existing over not existing because...'). Ultimately, at some point the explanation becomes externalized 'I care about surviving because species whose members don't care about surviving died off' or inaccessible 'I don't know why I care, but I do'.

If we're talking about other people, we can reason based on analogy. For example, maybe most of the time I'm not motivated by anger, but since there were a few times that I was angry, I can understand someone who is motivated by anger 90% of the time as 'just more of that one moment' or 'that one moment, all the time'.

The mythological creatures we construct are usually built this way. We take a narrow view of our own motivations, then say 'what if it was this and only this, all the time?'. So Fey are pure mischief, devils are pure malice, demons are pure rage, etc. But ultimately, its our mischief, our malice, and our rage that we're just multiplying or making the whole of things. Meaning that if you ask 'why do demons do what they do?' you're actually asking something like 'what is the most nuanced understanding of what it means to feel rage?' - that is, something beyond just a moment that catches you by surprise and is in contrast with normality, but rather an eternal existence of getting used to rage, making all aspects and variations of one's thoughts and experiences out of it, etc. And ultimately, because these entities are intelligent and have societies (such as they are) and life experiences and so on, this consists of mastering that one ingredient and turning it into a workable self.

So a demon that is ancient and smart (but is still a demon) can still make long-term plans, but the object of those plans is to as fully as possible satisfy a visceral and concrete need - rage, lust, dominance, whatever. For a demon, which represents 'hot' emotions, success isn't going to be measured in abstract concepts ('causing the world to end' will not be satisfying, but personally crushing the thing which keeps the world alive might be). So that means that all of that planning, scheming, etc will be directed towards some future moment in which the demon can imagine themselves committing a single cathartic act which pays off all of that delay - it's ultimately going to be about them, not about the change to the world that results.

A devil on the other hand represents the 'cold' negative emotions, so personally being the one to torture or kill their personal rival is less important to them than the knowledge that the people they bear malice to (in general) are suffering. A devil represents the kind of emotions that would be satisfied by ideas like 'I will kill your loved ones but let you live, because that way you will suffer more'.

That's more or less the classic forms of these things. But you can also say 'those are the stories told by people in the setting as an attempt to understand the truly alien'. This is a much more difficult path to take, but it can be a lot more interesting if you can pull it off. For this, you have to conceive of emotional structures beyond what a human can experience or generally understand. So here, perhaps you start taking away assumptions that are really intrinsic to your concept of what it means to be human, to be alive, to have agency, etc, and see what you're left with. If you go 100% with this you get Far Realmsy things, but if you add say 5% of this into the 'exaggerated emotion' view of a demon or devil, it can help a lot with the 'this isn't just an angry human, its really something different' impression.