Need help: Bladesinger/sorcerer concept

[Ept1s]

So I played one campaign of DnD (Lost mine of Phandelver) and now me and my friends are starting a very large campaign which is supposed to last until level 20. Now I really like the concept of a bladesinger wizard, with a flavour on being feasible in melee, being able to easily move around the battlefield and buffing/debuffing the party and creating opportunities for them with Crowd Control.

First I wanted to go pure bladesinger, however, looking into the Sorcerer class the meta magic is also very appealing (bonus action spell casting, targeting 2 opponents). Next to that the wizard doesn't get a proficiency in constitution saves without taking a feat. I want to get the most utility out of my spell casting and be decent in melee (hence the bladesinger). So my plan is now:

High Elf:


Str: 8 | +1
Dex: 16 | +3
Con: 13 | +1
Int: 16 | +3
Wis: 10 | +0
Cha: 12 | +1

The goal is to max out Intelligence and Dexterity to 20.


Then I would start in Sorcerer with draconic bloodline which would give me:

@ Lvl 1
* 4 cantrips + 1 from high elf origin

Proficiency in constitution and charisma
2 lvl one spell slots and 2 known lvl 1 spells
Dragon Ancestry: 13+3=16 AC which increases in levels, removing the need for taking Mage Armor

@ Lvl 2

2 sorcery points
flexible casting, being able to create one 1lvl spell slot

@ Lvl 3

3 sorcery points
meta magic - Quickened spell & Twinned spell



and then from there on go full wizard bladesinger:

@ Lvl 1

3 extra cantrips for a total of 7
2 lvl 1 spell slots
Arcane Recovery, recover spell slots

@ Lvl 2


3 lvl 1 spell slots
Bladesong (+3 to AC = 19)

*and so on*

-----

Now what I'm giving up for this is one ASI, Spell Mastery and Signature Spells. The ASI could also be used to take a feat which would most likely be Resilient(Con) to get a +2 in constitution and a constitution proficiency or War Caster, but since I will only be wielding a sword the only benefit of it is the advantage on Constitution saves and being able to use spells for an attack of opportunity.

A few of the downsides I believe are:

I'm not very efficient early game because of the low Cha modifier used for spell casting, but I have a decent armor class to be in melee
My known spells need the use the Cha modifier for the rest of the game, which I can't switch to Int (right?)
Giving up on Signature spells, however I only get that at lvl 20 after which the campaign won't continue for very long
Less powerful spell slots in the later levels



Since I don't have a lot of experience with DnD and longrunning campaigns, would this be a good character build providing me the spell casting versatility while being somewhat efficient in melee? are the downsides worth the upsides? Or is pure bladesinger or taking one lvl 1 of fighter a better way to go?

Hope someone can give their 2 cents :)

[Spiritchaser]

I'm not saying this is a dead end but:

What is it that you plan to do with only 3 sorcery points?

I mean, I know you can use spell slots to regain them but...

[Ept1s]

I'm not saying this is a dead end but:

What is it that you plan to do with only 3 sorcery points?

I mean, I know you can use spell slots to regain them but...

The main idea is to use the 3 sorcery points for meta magic, providing a bit of extra spellcasting options in certain situations.

[Citan]

Hi!

Honestly, I'm really afraid that with this approach, once you arrive around Wizard 15, you look back and severely regret your choice.

Even considering you can dedicate Wizard's Arcane Recovery to convert slots into sorcery points, the most you will usually most over a day will be around 10 or so sorcery points for a good part of your career.

And you sacrifice what is arguably one of the top five features throughout the whole classes, which is free 1st and 2nd spell.
For a Bladesinger, it could be plain defensive (Shield + Mirror Image) or mobility (Misty Step), or magic damage (Burning Hand / Flaming Sphere)...

And you also risk being frustrated by the fact you have only 3 max SP at any given time (you would have to spend one turn converting a slot into SP every few turns in a big fight).

Honestly, I really don't think it is worth it, knowing that you have a good chance to actually reach these kind of character levels.
I would rather suggest you to firmly stick with either one: Bladesinger for the powerful arcane caster feeling, with later good melee attack.
Or Sorcerer to have fun with Metamagic.

EDIT: if you really don't mind losing the capstone (3rd*2 short rest) and one ASI, and want to have extra spellcasting oomph in some situations, you'd better take one level in Fighter at the start, and a second level sometimes later (at least after getting Wizard 6).
At least you get Constitution saving throw proficiency right from the start, and later with Action Surge you can, once per short rest, blow two spells in the same turn (like a "free Quicken" per short rest, only better because you still in fact have your bonus action available).

And you can still get Spell Mastery as a capstone.

[Ept1s]

Hi!

Honestly, I'm really afraid that with this approach, once you arrive around Wizard 15, you look back and severely regret your choice.

Even considering you can dedicate Wizard's Arcane Recovery to convert slots into sorcery points, the most you will usually most over a day will be around 10 or so sorcery points for a good part of your career.

And you sacrifice what is arguably one of the top five features throughout the whole classes, which is free 1st and 2nd spell.
For a Bladesinger, it could be plain defensive (Shield + Mirror Image) or mobility (Misty Step), or magic damage (Burning Hand / Flaming Sphere)...

And you also risk being frustrated by the fact you have only 3 max SP at any given time (you would have to spend one turn converting a slot into SP every few turns in a big fight).

Honestly, I really don't think it is worth it, knowing that you have a good chance to actually reach these kind of character levels.
I would rather suggest you to firmly stick with either one: Bladesinger for the powerful arcane caster feeling, with later good melee attack.
Or Sorcerer to have fun with Metamagic.

EDIT: if you really don't mind losing the capstone (3rd*2 short rest) and one ASI, and want to have extra spellcasting oomph in some situations, you'd better take one level in Fighter at the start, and a second level sometimes later (at least after getting Wizard 6).
At least you get Constitution saving throw proficiency right from the start, and later with Action Surge you can, once per short rest, blow two spells in the same turn (like a "free Quicken" per short rest, only better because you still in fact have your bonus action available).

And you can still get Spell Mastery as a capstone.

Thanks for the honest reply, and I see your point. Indeed 2 levels fighter might give more benefits and still uphold the concept. Another thing I'm thinking about is dipping 2 levels in Rogue to get dodge/dash/disengage for better survivability in melee.

[Citan]

Thanks for the honest reply, and I see your point. Indeed 2 levels fighter might give more benefits and still uphold the concept. Another thing I'm thinking about is dipping 2 levels in Rogue to get dodge/dash/disengage for better survivability in melee.
That is another way to go indeed, although it depends on how you see yourself playing at higher levels.
"Disengage as a bonus action" could be approached by Mobile feat, if you intend to use the Extra Attack or weapon cantrips.
Dodge is not available as a bonus action for a Rogue, sorry. You probably mixed up with Monk, which has to spend a Ki for that. ;)
Dash is always useful, but it may become redundant/overkill if you plan on buffing yourself with Haste as soon as you get it.

Although I would not recommend Hasting self without having a decent Concentration save, hence Warcaster, Resilient or Fighter dip. ;)

As for AC, if you start with 16 in both DEX and INT, when bladesinging you already get a better AC than a Barbarian two-handling, thanks to Mage Armor: 13+3+3 = 19.
Once you get higher DEX and INT it gets even better.
So although you have a fairly low hit die, as long as you stay careful, using mainly hit and run tactics for the first few levels, you should survive fine. ;)
And a fighter dip also provides either Mariner (better defense) or TWF (better offense) Fighting Style. ;)

That is why, if you plan on using Haste and build upon weapon attacks, Fighter is probably the best choice overall. Otherwise, both are probably fine, although very different in mechanics and flavour...

[Ept1s]

That is another way to go indeed, although it depends on how you see yourself playing at higher levels.
"Disengage as a bonus action" could be approached by Mobile feat, if you intend to use the Extra Attack or weapon cantrips.
Dodge is not available as a bonus action for a Rogue, sorry. You probably mixed up with Monk, which has to spend a Ki for that. ;)
Dash is always useful, but it may become redundant/overkill if you plan on buffing yourself with Haste as soon as you get it.

Although I would not recommend Hasting self without having a decent Concentration save, hence Warcaster, Resilient or Fighter dip. ;)

As for AC, if you start with 16 in both DEX and INT, when bladesinging you already get a better AC than a Barbarian two-handling, thanks to Mage Armor: 13+3+3 = 19.
Once you get higher DEX and INT it gets even better.
So although you have a fairly low hit die, as long as you stay careful, using mainly hit and run tactics for the first few levels, you should survive fine. ;)
And a fighter dip also provides either Mariner (better defense) or TWF (better offense) Fighting Style. ;)

That is why, if you plan on using Haste and build upon weapon attacks, Fighter is probably the best choice overall. Otherwise, both are probably fine, although very different in mechanics and flavour...


Hmmm so far I'm think 1 lvl fighter (for constitution saves) and the rest pure bladesinger and maybe take the mobile feat later down the road.

[Lawful Good]

Just a note, the build in the OP needs a charisma of at least 13 to mc out of sorcerer.

[djreynolds]

level 18 is the best.

Imagine the shield spell(reaction) and misty step(ba) and 2 sun sword attacks, every round.

If any thing, and it is cheesy, I would take 1 level of barbarian if you can manage to get you con to 16 for +3 modifier.... just for unarmored defense... other wise mage armor should handle it.

[Coyote81]

Your idea " Now I really like the concept of a bladesinger wizard, with a flavour on being feasible in melee, being able to easily move around the battlefield and buffing/debuffing the party and creating opportunities for them with Crowd Control."

This seems like something that could be covered even better by a Swashbuckler 3 / Draconic Sorcerer 17

This gives you amazing battlefield mobility (So you can be johnny on the spot), high initiative(so that you can set up your teammates for amazing turns), tons f sorcery points to cast you various spells with and metamagic to do it unique and more effective ways.

[Lombra]

For what you are describing I think that you could like paladin 2 / sorcerer 18.

[Citan]

Guys... Let's stop making suggestions shall we? Otherwise poor OP will sink into the enernal loophole of the build choice... :smallbiggrin:

Better keep it simple. What OP said in last post (start Fighter 1, then Wizard X) is a very nice way to go. ;)