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Matheusz
2016-12-24, 07:26 PM
Monastic Traditions in 5e



As i wasn't able find any Monk guides that include all the added Monastic Traditions from the Sword Coast Adventurer Guide and Underneath Arcana, I decided to write down my own guide about them to share my thoughts and experiences with the traditions! English is not my first language, so please forgive or report me mistakes you find. Im also happy about critique and suggestions!


The Monk is one of the rarer played classes in DnD because he does not fall in to one of the three typical roles of DnD characters (tank/damage/untility). While there are usually Fighters/Barbars/Paladins in the frontline, Sorcerers/Wizards in the backline and Druids/Bards/Clerics somewhere in the middle to keep the team together, the Monk has fewer appearances in classical Dnd setups (at least in the group i play with). He is a robust damage & utility hybrid.

While the d8 health die is only average, the Monk has a lot of ways to dodge or to mitigate damage. The class as a whole is very good in utilizing the action economy (main action/bonus action/reaction) and also has a suprisingly high damage output with all the bonus attacks! The Monk is a very constant class, that gives you a lot of options and probably never will feel useless, even if you already spent your KI points. However, while the class gains loads good of features on its way to lvl 20, it does not get any ridiculous capstone abililties that allow you to permanently turn your allies into fully grown dragons or to cast fireballs at will. (The only feature thats comparable is QUIVERING PALM from the "Way of the open Hand" tradition)

The thing i like most about the monk is that he is a character that has very viable attacks (i dont like to rely on very medicore cantrips when im out of spellslots), while still getting loads of free or KI based abilities and even spells. One could argue that classes like the knight can also gain spells by choosing the eldritch knight path, but that only enables the typicaly used shield spell and a few other utility spells, while the whole playstyle of the Monk is based around the effective usage of KI points (which you regain every SHOT REST)

The monk excels at locking down single targets and misses the ability to dish out AOE damage to deal with large groups (like most fighting based classes). While the basic features of the Monk already form a very feasible class, the 7 Monastic Traditions allow you to customize the class into a direction of your choice (ranged combat/ AOE damage / Healing/ weapon fighting / rouge like shadow skills ect....)



I will comment on Feat and Background choices in a short manner as there are many other guides about them and you are better off choosing based on your own preferences anyways.



Gold represents the best abilities

Sky blue represents excellent choices and very strong abilities

Blue represents good abilities that you might not want to miss

Violet represents optional abilities that are not necessarily bad but often weak compared to other choices

Red represents suboptimal choices that you should only pick up if you like the style and the flavour

Important: im not only rating the abilities based on their utility and strength but also based on their cost and on the level where you get access to it. For example abilitys that you get between lvl 17 and lvl 20 have to have a major impact on the character to get a good rating!



STR increases your carrying capacity and helps you with sometimes occuring strengths checks. If you have some points left you could spend them here.

DEX besides being your comat stat it also increases your AC, you initiative, and often required DEX saving throws and dex checks (like stealth). Your key Stat, max it!

CON boosts your HP and helps you with CON saves which occur from time to time

INT is the worst stat for you as there are not a lot if INT saves/INT ability checks and you dont benefit from it in other ways. The only reason for me to invest 2 points here is flavourwise to avoid playing an unintelligent character

WIS increases your AC and also your DC that enemies have to beat. Its also helps you to succeed on commonly apperaing WIS saving throws, that often have bad consequences if you miss your save. High WIS checks like Perception are also nice to have. This is your second priority after DEX

CHA i'd only increase this flavourwise or to be better in situations where you have to be talkative as there are a lot of usefull CHA based skills. If you have a lot of other CHA based characters in your party its even less important.



UNARMORED DEFENSE if you pick your Stats right this will give you good armor values early on and scale up to 20 AC as soon as your max DEX and WIS score. Definetely good to have!

MARTIAL ARTS enable your further abilities and allow you to do decent damage with your unarmed strikes. I would recommend to use a monk weapon in the beginning (at least till lvl5) because your unnarmed strikes only to 1d4 damage. This feature also allows you to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action for free! Very important as it allows you to attack two times a turn beginning from level1!

KI is the resource that enables a lot of strong things. Unlike most rescources it replenishes every short rest, which means you get to use it very frequently once you gained a few levels. You also dont have to be too concerned about spending too many points during combat. Important: KI Points allow the Monk to hit with additonal attacks or to stun an opponent. They increase the Monks fighting abilities. This means that if you gain additional abilities with KI Point costs their usage is not pure upside, but comes with the restriction that you have to decrease the ammount of bonus hits and stunns in order use the other ability. (contrary to the eldritch knight, whose additional spells dont tax him in the usage of other comabt abilities) Keep this in mind while evaluating abilities with KI point requirements!



Flurry of Blows allows you to make 2 instead of 1 unarmed strike as bonus action. After level 5 thats potential FOUR ATTACKS per turn! It gets bonus effects if you choose the Way of the open Hand as your Monastic Tradition. Be aware that you can only use it after you used your main action to attack!

Patient Defense and Step of the Wind can be very usefull in the right situation. Its a nice option to have but generally you dont want to spend a lot of your KI points here


UNARMORED MOVEMENT very nice ability to have as it allows you to move in and out of combat and close gaps. The bonus gets ridiculous at higher levels. Movement on water and along vertical surfaces can also be very usefull in the right situations

DEFLECT MISSILES Monks often can stun or run from melee fighters. So getting an ability to stop ranged foes is nice but its not a gamechanger. It requires your reaction, so you only can use it once a turn.

SLOW FALL is often handy, but rarely really important. I ll still take it if i get it for free!

EXTRA ATTACK allows the monk to strike 3 or 4 times when other combat classes strike 2 times. While the figher gets a 3rd and 4th attack we use Flurry of Blows and increase the damage of the unarmed strike with with increasing level.

STUNNING STRIKEgives you a lot of utility against single strong foes. You can attempt to stun somebody with every meele attack you make (also with Flurry of Blows). All further attacks from everyone (and your attacks on your next turn) are with advantage as the enemy is stunned until the end of your next turn. In addition he cant take any actions and reactions, which keeps your opponent from being relevant. Great ability!

KI EMPOWERED STRIKES are very important as the campaign goes on, to dodge resistances or immunities

EVASION not as good as i thought when i read it the first time, because it only dodges 1. Area of Effect 2. spells that 3.require a DEX save. Still very usefull!

STILLNESS OF MIND is situational, but still very usefull for getting rid of annoying effects that otherwhise could potentially disable you completely

PURITY OF BODY is no gamechanger either, but nice to have in certain situations

TONGUE OF THE SUN AND MOON I rate this rather high, because i have come into a lot of situtions where combat and difficulties could have been avoided by talking to and understanding creatures that are in your way. Of course there will be dumb creatures or creatures that will fight no matter what. But often understanding the reasoning behind an encounter helps you to avoid the encounter or to advance the knowledge about your campagin.

DIAMOND SOUL is GREAT, proficiencys for all saving throws (including death saving throws) is already great. Getting rerolls for 1 KI point makes it even better!!

TIMELESS BODY its nice to age like a super saiyajin, but its rarely relevant for campaigns

EMPTY BODY is very good, but comes a bit late. At least you have enough KI points at lvl 15 to make use of it

PERFECT SELF it's not bad to have, but its weak compared to other lvl 20 capstone features



There is no obvious best one that you have to pick above all the others so i will rate none of them Gold. I will start with the three from the players handbook, continue with the ones from the Swords Coast Adventure Guide and finish with the Underneath Arcana traditions.


Way of the open hand


OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE adds free features to your Flurry of Blows. The most commonly used one is to knock your opponent prone. Standing up will cost him half of his movement. Damagewise it is a two edged sword as prone opponents can be attacked with advantage in meele, but can only be attacked with disadvantage from the distance

WHOLENESS OF BODY of course its nice, but the bad scaling (3x your monk lvl) and the one time use per day make it rather weak. Still the ability to heal half of your HP once a day should not be underdestimated!

TRANQUILITY a weak abilty that only gets cast once a day and you cant even control when it gets cast. Obviously it has some utility but compared to everything else its a stinker!

QUIVERING PALM is the only save or die spell in 5e (to my knowledge). For only 3 KI points and one action you can kill anyone or deal 10d10 if they succeed on their CON save. Extremely strong! Its one of the main reasons why i would choose the Way of the open Hand. Be aware that you wont be able to use it before lvl 17!

Way of Shadow
I would rate this Tradition half lightblue / half blue if it wasnt so dependent on the surrounding light conditions. The Players Handbook states that even the worst weatherconditions during day are not enough to get dim light and a torch or the dancing lights cantrip can ruin your day


SHADOW ARTS can be pretty usefull. 2 KI points per spell are a lot in the beginning when KI points are limited, but mages also have to be canny with their spellslots in the beginning. You basically get the option to cast one of four very usefull spells for the cost of 2 KI points! (and a free usefull cantrip!) Taxing on your KI point economy, still very usefull!


Pass Without Trace The main gamechanger here is the +10 Stealth for your whole group, allowing you to suprise attack in encounters or to dodge them completely
Darkness can have a lot of utilities! (especially if you took 2 levels in warlock and the evocation to see trough the darkness!)
Silence usefull to have if you want to stop someone from talking or casters from casting!
Darkvision if a light source would keep you from being undetected it might be usefull, but generally you dont want to spend your KI points on it
Minor Illusion is one of the most usefull cantrips in and out of combat. Getting it for free as a non caster class is awesome!


SHADOW STEP makes you the perfect ninja if you can create a setting with lots of darkness or dim light. Advantage on attacks and teleport are quite good. It sounds good, its is not too bad, but keep in mind that you loose your Flurry of Blows if you use your bonus action to teleport and that its hard to use it if your surroundings are not naturally dark or dim. Bonus: You can use your teleport to get out of attackrange without the risk of opportunity attacks

OPPORTUNIST is a free attack (requies reaction) when you set it up right. Not too bad, but id expect something more powerfull at lvl 17


Way of the four Elements


To be honest the Way of the four Elements if the Tradition i have explored the least. It offers some powerfull spells, that otherwhise only can be cast by Wizards or Sorcerers. One highlight is the Fireball spell for 4 KI points at lvl 11, which gives you the option to dish out AOE damage! Some other examples for usefull spells:

Burning hands gives some nice AOE damage at early levels for 2 KI Points

Fly gives some nice utility for 4 KI points (lvl 11 required)

Water Whip was another usefull option until it was declared that it also has to be used as main action (instead of a bonus action)

The class offers some utility but in general the spells have too high level and KI point requirements to be used efficiently. If you want to play a spellcaster, id reccomend you to do so, because you will be able to cast your spells much earlier, much more often and with more additional benefits!




Way of the long Death
This is currently my favourite Monastic Tradition. It gives you utility and makes you hard to kill while complimenting your combat abilities.


TOUCH OF DEATH can support you with multiple health boosts per day or even per combat if you get to finsh some creatures. You can use it beginning with level 3 and it scales while you advance. If your group lets you deal finishing blows on purpose its even better! On the other hand its useless against single boss monsters

HOUR OF REAPING can provide a lot of utility for your party. You get it early, it has a big AOE and you can keep your opponents from comming closer to your squishy casters. Bonus: Its totally free and castable at will! Downside: If you dont use your main action to attack, you wont be able to use your bonusaction for unarmed strikes

MASTERY OF DEATH it basically makes you unkillable as long as you have KI points to spend. It gets weaker if you fight against hordes of enemies or against foes with multiple attacks as it requires you to spend more KI points to avoid death. Bonus: If you manage to slay somebody after using Mastery of death, you ll get some temporary hitpoints to keep going on.

TOUCH OF THE LONG DEATH is not bad as burst damage to finish somebody or if you know that you will have a short rest to replenish your KI points soon. It costs a lot of KI points to be effective and even if you spend a lot , its very likely worse than QUIVERING PALM. Damagewise you need to invest at least 5 KI Points to make it better than 4 unarmed strikes (from Flurry of Blows) so you better spend a lot of points or none!


Way of the Sun Soul
This Monastic Tradition gets undervallued by a lot of people. In my oppinion this is the most viable way to play a ranged Monk and to gain some AOE damage. The only real downside and the reason why I rate it half violet is that you miss out on some main class benefits, that can only be used by meele combatants. Also other lightblue classes also get additional utility in their Monastic Tradition. Dont let this discourage you from playing the Sun Soul Monk and keep in mind that you can also go into meele combat any time!


RADIANT SUNBOLT gives you 30 feet ranged attacks with radiant damage. They are as strong as your unarmend strikes and you can also spend one KI point here to add two attacks as your bonus action (a perfect substitute for Flurry of Blows). What you are missing is the one free bonus strike that close combat Monks can use as bonusaction (if you dont want to spend a KI point on Flurry of Blows) and the ability to use STUNNING STRIKE as it only works with meele attacks! This still makes you a very viable ranged combatant.

SEARING ARC STRIKE can be a usefull AOE spell as bonus action but i feel like it gets overshadowed pretty fast and you really dont want to sink lots of your KI points into this

SEARING SUNBURST provides you with an improvable free AOE spell. Monks usually have no way to deal with hordes of enemies, but this basically is a FIREBALL if you spend 3 KI points on it (same AOE, same Damage, same Range). You cant use this before level 11, but having an AOE spell is huge and one or two of these will still fry large hordes of critters

SUN SHIELD is a good effect with some return damage against meele attackers (reaction required!). Its strong and flavourful but nothing crazy for a lvl17 ability.




Way of the Kensei(without a shortsword)
This one is very hard to evaluate! You can choose up to three martial weapons, which you will be proficient with. The problem is that the only martial weapon that also counts as "Monk weapon" is the Shortsword. If you use anything else as you Kensei weapon, you loose all benefits from your MARTIAL ARTS. Unarmed strikes will only deal 1 damage again and you get no free unarmed strike as your bonusaction (but you can still use Flurry of Blows with 1 damage). In my oppinion you really have to use shortswords to be effective, otherwhise this Tradition is a trap.


PATH OF THE KENSEI makes using Martial Weapons viable. As you loose your bonuses on unarmed strikes if you dont use a shortsword, you get the option to use "pummel" as your bonus action to at least deal 1d4 (instead of you unarmed strikes). You get +2 AC if you use an unarmed strike in your attack action. This can push your AC significanty, however it keeps you from attacking with your martial weapon (which you wanted to do in the first place.) After lvl 5 you at least get to attack once with your Martial Weapon while you get the +2 AC

ONE WITH THE BLADE gives magical attacks with your weapons (which is needed against resistant/immune monsters) and another minor benefit. It's between blue and violet, because you unarmed strikes get this feature anyways

SHARPEN THE BLADE this is potentially very good as it gives you a strong buff for a long time. The downside is that this only counts for weapon attacks and not for unarmed strikes. Let me show you the following comparison: You often will attack 4 times after lvl5 (2 main attacks + 1-2 Unarmed strikes as bonus action) if you choose another Monastic Tradition. Using SHARPEN THE BLADE will cost you your bonus action and stengthen weapon attacks that you only can use once or twice a turn, depending on if you want to get your +2 AC. It might be viable, but is worth choosing the whole Monastic Tradition for it?

UNERRING ACCURACY finally a proper lvl 17 ability. Rerolling missed weapon attacks for free is a serious advantage! (keep in mind this does not count for unarmed strikes!)


Im sure this Monastic Tradition is viable if you use shortswords as your Kensei Weapon. My issue are all the hoops you have to jump through, just to use martial weapons during your main action and get the occassional +2 AC. While most other Tradtions give you AOE frightens , knock prone, AOE damage or unkillability,...... this Tradition only improves your Damage and sometimes your AC. In the end you will be able to make 2 Weapon strikes (with some good bonuses) and 2 unarmed strikes for a lot of damage.


Way of Tranquility
This Monastic Tradition is less combat based and gives you the possibility to heal and to avoid attacks. If you dont have a healer in your group, this might at least provide some help, while giving you a new monk experience!



PATH OF TRANQUILITY Do you remember the crappy TRANQUILITY ability from the Way of the open hand? This is so much better. Its still an ability with a medicore effect, but you can cast it for free beginning from level 3 and have unlimited uses with the only restriction that you cant cast it more often than once a minute. Nice to have and nice to use in and out of combat

HEALING HANDS is so good, because the scaling is so ridiculously good. With a HP pool that is 10 times your Monk level, you will be able to heal A LOT! Way of the open Hand Monks only get a weak 3xMonklevel self heal and even Clerics and Paladins only get to heal 5*Characterlevel once a day. You get double the amount, which itself contributes a lot to the viability of this Monastic Tradition!

DOUSE THEFLAMES OF WAR The ability itself is very very potent. Its also castable for free and at will! You can stop single enemies from attacking you to pass by or to negotiate. The big problem is, that the tamed creature and its allies cant take damage and cant get forced to do saving throws or the whole thing will end. So while you try to convince your second target to stop attacking, you force it to make a saving throw which will set your first target free again. Once cheesy thing you could try to do is to seperate your enemies somehow so that they wont free each other from the effect. (but seperating wont be easy with hostile creatures)

ANGER OF A GENTLE SOUL a potentially strong lvl 17 ability, as it can add 17*4= 68 damage a turn too your attacks, if you hit four times. The problem i see here is that you generally dont want so see your allies dying. As a result you wont benefit from this too often. A way to abuse this would be to play with a group that can conjure a lot of small beings. Everytime one of them dies you get these ridiculous damage bonuses





I will only shortly mention optimized choices here. Many other choices will also be solid, bring benefits and allow you to add personal flavour to your character!


RACEs
Wood elfs get you +2 DEX and +1 WIS which is very helpfull. Nightvision can be very usefull and 35 FT movespeed increases your already fast movement even more! Also you only have to be in trance for 4 hours during a long rest!

Ghostwise Halflings give you +2 to DEX and +1 to WIS. The reduced movementspeed (25Ft) gets compensated by the monks movementspeed increase! The "Lucky" ability is also very usefull to have! Bonus: Telepatic communication

Variant human is lightblue for most classes. Its also good here as you can increase two stats of your choice and add a feat on top, but because the monk is MAD and needs his stat increases more than additional feats, i rate it blue

Aarakocra +2 DEX and +1 WIS are perfect and flying speed opens a whole new World of options. I personally dont like them that much, because of their short lifespan and because there are many settings where they dont fit in

Backgrounds
In my oppinion pick whatever fits the story of your character, but if you still want to optimize here:

Outlander is a good background because you get proficiency atlethics and survival, an extra language and proficiency with an instrument. The wanderer feature is also not too bad

Sailor&Pirate Perception is King and you will be proficient in it (and in Athletics). The Sailors/Pirates Features are also quite good!

Urchin is also pretty good with Stealth and Sleight of hand as proficiencies!

FEATs
The Monk is one of the few classes that prefers stats increases over feats. If you still want to get some, here are some usefull ones:

Lucky: You basically can never go wrong with Lucky. If you want to increase your chances on getting good d20 rolls go ahead

Observant Increases your Wisdom by one and gives you +5 on passive perception and passive invetigation. If you have an odd WIS score and dont need additional stat boosts, this is quite good as passive perception can help you A LOT if your DM uses it regularly (which he should) to figure out if your group recognizes something without actively searching

Mobile: Makes you even faster and stops opportunity attacks, which enables a hit and run style. (the other option would be to use a KI point and a bonus action to disengage)


I ll only give a few thoughts as i generally dont like to multiclass with the monk, to avoid missing KI Points and to not lag behind in the power of my abilities during the game. On the other hand the monk does not have any crazy capstones to reach between level 18, 19 and 20, so taking a few levels off is possible.

(2-3 levels) Warlock:


CANTRIPS & LVL1 SPELLS Warlock spellslots refresh during short rests, having a repertoire of cantrips and lvl1 spells as a non caster class is very nice and adds new options!

Evils Sight is a nice combo with the Way of the Shadow because you will be able to create magical darkness while having the ability too have vision in it. That means in your darkness you get advantage on your attacks against creatures that rely on their vision and the creatures get disadvantage on their attack rolls if they can guess your location. If they guess wrong they straight out miss!

LvL3 gives you the option to use one of the three Pact features the Warlock offers!


FIGHTER and ROGUE are two other popular multiclassing options for the Monk.


2 levels of Fighter are a natural fit for every weapon oriented class as you get action surge and a Fighting Style.

Going into Rogue levels because you are a Shadow Monk is a bad idea in my oppinion as:

your sneak attack only scales with rogue level
and your sneak attack only triggers once a turn (but you have the ability to attack multiple times)

Cunning action with level 2 is still nice to have as you get to dash/disengage/hide as a bonus action!






Conclusion & TLDR:
I can recommend all Monastic Traditions except the Way of the four Elements. Depending on what you want to do all other Traditions are perfectly viable, while the Element Monk lags behind them in some aspects. Keep in mind that choosing one of the Traditions does not lock you into a certain playstyle or into the permanent use of the additional features you get. You will still have all the basic features that make the Monk a great fighter!



Way of the open hand for improved Flurry of Blows with utility and one shot kills beginning from lvl 17
Way of Shadow for teleport ninja action in the shadows and some lvl2 spells that have high utility
Way of the long Death to avoid death for a long time and for AOE frighten effects at will
Way of the Sun Soul for ranged attacks and AOE damage
Way of Tranquility for healing capabilities and to stop creatures from attacking
Way of the Kensei to use a Shortsword or other Martial Weapons

mgshamster
2016-12-24, 08:21 PM
To be honest i have never thought about playing a Elemental monk. Most abilities cost too many KI points and are too weak compared to what the other Monastic Traditions offer. Water Whip was the only usefull option until it was declared that it also has to be used as main action (and not a bonus action)

EM uses the spell point guide in the DMG.

The fact that you've never played it means you're vastly underestimating the tradition.

With two short rests and spending half of your ki on spells, you're equivalent to an EK. Spend all of your ki on spells and you're a stronger spellcaster than a paladin.

Or you don't and you're just as good as any other monk. The tradition provides versatility.

The archetype rates solidly in the violet; maybe borderline violet-blue. But it's definitely not red.

Matheusz
2016-12-24, 08:26 PM
Okay, i ll try to find out more about it! I changed the chapter, but im still quite sceptical about the element Monk. (but i was certainly to harsh to make it Red)

The paladin might have weaker spells, but he has the ability to use his spellslots to create hefty smites and his Oaths provide him with a lot of additional stuff (i dont think its appropriate to compare both classes in this way)

King539
2016-12-24, 08:28 PM
Underneath Arcana? What's that? :smalltongue:

Zilong
2016-12-24, 08:37 PM
Underneath Arcana? What's that? :smalltongue:

Its the subliminal messages WotC prints, with super-secret special ink, in every Unearthed Arcana to control your mind and make you buy more of their products

ad_hoc
2016-12-24, 08:51 PM
Overall this seems good. Here is where I disagree:


Way of Shadow

I think you underestimate Shadow Arts and slightly underestimate Shadow Step. The thing with the Shadow Arts spells is that they are expensive, but they have a huge impact when they are useful. Shadow Step is very useful in exploration which you don't mention. It is also good for covering extra ground and bypassing mooks. Also note that you have left out their Invisibility ability.

Minor Illusion It is one of the best non-attack cantrips. Its best use is to create sounds or to create a hiding place.

Pass Without Trace It is a game changer. It costs 2 Ki but helps the party to get surprise attacks or avoid encounters entirely. It is probably the best 2nd level spell in the game.

Darkness This is a good tool to have to avoid TPKs. Other uses are circumstantial

Silence This is potentially useful. When it comes up, maybe once a campaign, it's great to have. Some campaigns will see more use.

Darkvision This is a waste of Ki.


Way of the long Death

I think Touch of Death is regular blue at best. It's best when killing mooks, but Monks are best for taking out the big enemies so it works against what Monks are good at. The extra temp HP aren't that big of a deal when you do get them as well. It's just not as good as Open Hand Technique or Shadow Arts.


Way of the Sun Soul

Radiant Sun Bolt is just regular blue. A ranged attack is fun but it lags behind in damage from your regular attacks for most of the game. You covered its other weaknesses too, you need to spend Ki on flurry and you can't use Stunning Strike. Monks are also already highly mobile so they don't need ranged attacks as much as other classes.

Searing Arc Strike however is also regular blue. It is better than Flurry (with the caveat that you can't Stunning Strike with it). 2 attacks plus an AoE is pretty good.

Way of the Sun Soul isn't bad, but it doesn't play like a typical Monk and plays against some of the Monk's strengths. Still, ranged and AoE can make for a fun hybrid.

I would rate the subclasses like this:

Open Hand, Shadow
Long Death
Sun Soul
4 Elements

Open Hand and Shadow both do what they set out to do. Open Hand is the solid regular Monk. Shadow is great at sneaking and doing things related to that. I am not sure what Way of the Long Death is going for. Yes, the 11th level ability is amazing, but it takes a long time to get there.


Races

Ghostwise Halfling from SCAG is the Halfling of choice for the Wisdom boost.

Kenku from Volo's are a decent alternative. Their racial abilities aren't great but 2 skills are decent, you're just here for the stats anyway.


Lucky

This is basically it. If you are going Vuman take Lucky. Otherwise don't take feats, or recognize that the feats are Violet.


Observant

The problem is that you're basically never going to have an odd Wisdom stat.


Mobile: Makes you even faster and stops opportunity attacks, which enables a hit and run style. (the other option would be to use a KI point and a bonus action to disengage)


Other options include running around enemies, using flurry w/Open Hand, using teleport w/Shadow, using Stunning Strike, or spending a Ki and a bonus action for Dodge to protect you for the entire round. Or you can simply take the attack if it is important.

You also haven't covered the benefit of this hit and run style. Most of the time the enemy can still attack you or another party member on their turn, potentially one that is more fragile than you are. It also requires that you spend an attack on an enemy which might be better used to force more Stunning Strikes from a more dangerous enemy. If there are many mooks you may not even be able to get through them anyway since you can't actually pass through enemy spaces. So even with Mobile you will be using one of your other Monk abilities.

Most of the time using hit and run doesn't actually yield a benefit. The times it does it is better to use a Monk ability to make it work than waste a feat on Mobile.

A Monk doesn't benefit from Mobile as much as other classes do because Monks are already fast and have many abilities to avoid Opportunity Attacks. Mobile on Monk is win more. They get slightly better at what they are already good at.

Mobile is the quintessential Violet. It can be very useful, but most of the time it isn't. There are a bunch of other feats just as good or better. Magic Initiate comes to mind, and Resilient shouldn't be discounted as most campaigns won't make it to 14th level or far beyond.

Foxhound438
2016-12-24, 08:52 PM
1) I'd say sun shield is Blue tier, as it's guaranteed damage that's pretty easy to trigger. Not as much of a sure thing to proc as opportunist, but at the end of the day it's about the same damage with 100% accuracy (barring magic weapons/multiclass damage boosts)

2) Variant Human should still be light blue, the only big downer is that you need to dump 2 stats to 8 as opposed to 1. The feat out the gate can do a lot of work in the long run, especially since you don't have to end up dropping an ASI for a feat later. Not that I think any given feat is necessary on any given monk, but it's at least as good as the other listed races, and probably better than stout halfling

3) ghostwise halfling is better than stout for monks (gets +1 wis); Kenku has the same stat bonuses as wood elf, with different flavor abilities that may be more worthwhile depending on usage; Goblin can hide or disengage as a bonus action, which could be very useful early on when your best option for survival is kiting; Kobold gets free advantage at the cost of a harder dump on str. Those races should probably be on your list.

If I were you I'd look at multiclass options for each subclass and add that in.

ad_hoc
2016-12-24, 08:56 PM
With two short rests and spending half of your ki on spells, you're equivalent to an EK.

An EK who has fewer fighter abilities and no other subclass abilities.

The trouble with these sorts of arguments is that abilities like War Magic are ignored completely because we're talking about spells.

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters don't just get extra spells on top of their base class, they get abilities that allow them to use those spells better.

They also get to choose their spells, and get a lot of them.

It's not just the Ki cost that sinks 4E, it's the actual spells they get too. Most of them are rubbish. Sun Soul is the good version of 4E.




2) Variant Human should still be light blue, the only big downer is that you need to dump 2 stats to 8 as opposed to 1. The feat out the gate can do a lot of work in the long run, especially since you don't have to end up dropping an ASI for a feat later. Not that I think any given feat is necessary on any given monk, but it's at least as good as the other listed races, and probably better than stout halfling

It's not just the stat they lose out on. They lose out on all of the extra abilities that the races provide.

The Halfling Lucky trait is really good for example.

Foxhound438
2016-12-24, 09:05 PM
The Halfling Lucky trait is really good for example.

I'd say the lucky feat is better that rerolling exclusively 1's and a +1 to an off stat you don't care about.

ad_hoc
2016-12-24, 09:20 PM
I'd say the lucky feat is better that rerolling exclusively 1's and a +1 to an off stat you don't care about.

Why are you being deliberately deceptive?

How does this add to the conversation in a meaningful way?

Hawkstar
2016-12-24, 09:27 PM
EM uses the spell point guide in the DMG.

The fact that you've never played it means you're vastly underestimating the tradition.

With two short rests and spending half of your ki on spells, you're equivalent to an EK. Spend all of your ki on spells and you're a stronger spellcaster than a paladin.

Or you don't and you're just as good as any other monk. The tradition provides versatility.

The archetype rates solidly in the violet; maybe borderline violet-blue. But it's definitely not red.

Its abilities are overpriced, considering the lack of them (Only four when you finish it out) - and they're also overpriced in relation to other monk abilities (Reducing the costs across the board by 1 would bring them in-line with other monk abilities)
A 4E monk requires 4 Ki to cast Fireball. A Sun Soul requires 3. The level 2 spells a Shadow Monk gets cost 2 ki. The 4e has fewer, and they cost 3. An open fist monk can spend 1 ki for control effects and damage that a 4e monk has to spend 2 ki on. 4e monks need 1 ki to get a bit of range on their attacks. Sun Souls get 3x as much range for no ki cost at all.

Eldritch Knights, which you love to compare 4e monks to, have more than three times as many spells known as a 4e Monk, and by all practical purposes, more casting options AND far greater martial power.

MinotaurWarrior
2016-12-24, 09:33 PM
Okay, i ll try to find out more about it! I changed the chapter, but im still quite sceptical about the element Monk. (but i was certainly to harsh to make it Red)


Other things I think you should consider putting in to the 4E Monk eval:

1) Burning hands, against as few as two targets, is better DPR & DPKi than flurry when you get it.
2) Gust of wind
3) Fly

And maybe maybe Shape the Flowing River / Wave of Rolling Earth, and how they make 4E Monks the best builders in the game. These are Red options, but I think they're noteworthy red options because of just how stylish and flavorful they are. A level 20 4E monk creates three houses every hour and a half (~33/day), or ten igloos a minute if he's interrupted often enough. Sorcerers are the second best construction workers, and they can only cast wall of stone ~20 times a day.

Overall, I think the pink rating is fine, I just think, with their expansive list of features, it might do to mention a few more.

Foxhound438
2016-12-24, 09:57 PM
Why are you being deliberately deceptive?

How does this add to the conversation in a meaningful way?

m8, it's an opinion. chill.

bid
2016-12-25, 12:36 AM
The problem is that you're basically never going to have an odd Wisdom stat.
Kinda. Vuman can 8 16 14 10 16 10 with observant. Or if you really wanted a non-Wis race and have to patch that Wis15.

ad_hoc
2016-12-25, 01:14 AM
Kinda. Vuman can 8 16 14 10 16 10 with observant. Or if you really wanted a non-Wis race and have to patch that Wis15.

Yeah, it's more about how the guide is only listing the good feats.

A Vuman w/Observant isn't as good as one of the better races.

A non-Wis race then taking Observant at level 4 puts you an ASI behind.

I think that makes Observant violet rather than blue.

MinotaurWarrior
2016-12-25, 09:58 AM
Yeah, it's more about how the guide is only listing the good feats.

A Vuman w/Observant isn't as good as one of the better races.

A non-Wis race then taking Observant at level 4 puts you an ASI behind.

I think that makes Observant violet rather than blue.

A firbolg monk with 17 starting wisdom can take it at level 4. I think that works pretty well with Tranquility or, to a lesser extent, Long Death / 4E, since they have access to more non-AC based defenses.

Still, I agree with your violet assessment.

tsotate
2016-12-25, 10:14 AM
(2-3 levels) Warlock: Warlock is the most obvious Multiclass for me, because Warlocks are also wisdom based and the only class in 5e that gives you access to the most important abilites with as small dip of 2 or 3 levels.

What? Warlocks are charisma based. It's a pretty rare monk who can afford enough charisma to make a decent one. (It's sometimes worth doing on Shadow monks for the Devil's Sight, but even there it's a serious investment that you need to plan in advance.)

Matheusz
2016-12-25, 12:49 PM
Thank you for all the replies, i tried to include many suggestions!


I think you underestimate Shadow Arts and slightly underestimate Shadow Step

The whole Shadow Monk got revisited!


I think Touch of Death is regular blue at best.

I think your right!


Radiant Sun Bolt is just regular blue. Searing Arc Strike however is also regular blue.

The way of the Sun Soul also got redone!


Ghostwise Halfling from SCAG is the Halfling of choice for the Wisdom boost.

got fixed


Most of the time using hit and run doesn't actually yield a benefit. The times it does it is better to use a Monk ability to make it work than waste a feat on Mobile.

Hit and run aso includes:

Hit (stun) and run to the next target to stun again
Hit and run to get behind cover
Hit and run to get into darkness or to hide



The problem is that you're basically never going to have an odd Wisdom stat.

WIS could be odd if you choose other stats because of flavour reasons. It could be odd because you rolled your stats and it could be odd because you planed to take the Observant FEAT.


Mobile is the quintessential Violet.

Feats got edited!


Variant Human should still be light blue

I disagree because (as someone else also mentioned, you do not only loose additional STATS but important abilities like Darkvision or Lucky!


ghostwise halfling is better than stout for monks (gets +1 wis)

Thank you, it got fixed!


If I were you I'd look at multiclass options for each subclass and add that in.

I wrote a short abstract about it!

Ioxna
2016-12-26, 06:47 AM
I'm having alot of trouble finding information. I'm new to D&D. From everyone I've talked to you are able to pick multiple traditions, however I can't find anyone talking about it online... Are you able to pick more than one tradition? And if not, why does it say in the book that monks can follow multiple traditions, and why doesn't it say how to do that?

mgshamster
2016-12-26, 08:57 AM
I'm having alot of trouble finding information. I'm new to D&D. From everyone I've talked to you are able to pick multiple traditions, however I can't find anyone talking about it online... Are you able to pick more than one tradition? And if not, why does it say in the book that monks can follow multiple traditions, and why doesn't it say how to do that?

You can only pick one. A tradition is an archetype.

Just like every other archetype for every other class, you only get to pick one per class.

The "follow multiple traditions" you read in the book isn't for individual monks, it's for monasteries - locations where monks train. Most monasteries only teach one tradition, but some teach two or even all three. However, each individual monk must pick the tradition they wish to focus in.

Arelai
2016-12-27, 04:00 AM
One level of cleric can be insane for her Monk.

Trickery Domain pairs super well with shadow monk, and currently the only good kensei is a human variant GWM war cleric 1 kensei so you can bonus attack with your heavy weapon for +10's weapon instead of flurry. You also get cleric buffs and heals you can use on yourself in a pinch.

Foxhound438
2016-12-27, 06:29 AM
What? Warlocks are charisma based. It's a pretty rare monk who can afford enough charisma to make a decent one. (It's sometimes worth doing on Shadow monks for the Devil's Sight, but even there it's a serious investment that you need to plan in advance.)

non-variant human can go 9/16/14/9/16/13 to get 1 or 2 levels of warlock exclusively for hex.


One level of cleric can be insane for her Monk.

Agreed, particularly war cleric for divine favor- the damage boost on flurry of blows is pretty sweet



I'd also add that 2-3 ranger levels on anything but sun monk is worthwhile. Hunter's mark is about as good as hex, big difference being in the recharge time, while dueling style can be quite a boost, even when you're still settling for the d6 damage die. UA ranger is even better with improved initiative and potential favored enemy damage. Lastly, colossus slayer is an okay pure damage boost if you either don't care for the empty body ability, and it works even better with shadow monk's opportunist if you happen to get to L20.

Matheusz
2016-12-27, 08:05 PM
Is there any way i can get this into the Guide section of the forum?

Fishyninja
2016-12-30, 12:11 PM
I am currently playing a WOTLD monk and I have to say the Temp HP is extremely helpful, I am in a small party and they are all ranged players bar me, so the ability to have that extra barrier against death is good, also the level 6 ability ot be able to possible frighten a large group of people will be extremely helpful! Especially for ranged characters and our ranged Rogue.

I am unsure of the level 11 ability as of yet but the level 17th ability looks amazing as it reads to me it can be utilised without an attack as it states touch!

Oh and by the way great breakdown OP :smallsmile:

Samayu
2016-12-30, 07:07 PM
Not to disagree with anything, but just to throw in my two coppers...

I've been playing an Open Hand monk from 4th to 6th level (I just turned 7, but haven't played it yet). Here's what I've found useful.

Flurry of Blows with Open Hand Way for proning, pushing and denying reactions is gold.
I don't use stunning strike very often, usually due to a high monster CON. It becomes important if they're dishing out a lot of damage or other nasty attacks.
I've never used Patient Defense.
Step of the Wind, I've spent the ki for dash once or twice, never for the jump and maybe once for the disengage. Maybe.
Unarmored movement is awesome. I can go anywhere, and have enough movement to get away. But I'm a wood elf on top of it, so your mileage may vary (mileage? get it?)
Deflect missiles: this sounds like the most awesome thing ever. At fifth level I can resist 1d10+8 damage. But I've never actually been shot at!
Slow fall. This came in handy once, when I missed my climb roll four times in a row.
Wholeness of body: better than a cure wounds spell.

I enjoy the options afforded by the ki points, but sometimes it feels like many of the options aren't very useful. But what I like is that on those rare occasions you need them, they're there.

driftwood
2017-01-06, 01:20 PM
Wanted to say I really appreciate this update to the guides with the new material.

I joined an AL game of Lost Mines of Phandelver where the other characters were level 3 (mostly), and I of course started as level one. So I've played a Vuman with Mobile, and it's been very effective in keeping me alive. Most recently, after finally doing everything but the main mines, we started those with most others at 5 (one guy at level 4), and me at level 3. I took Path of the Long Death, and the temp hp are a nice safety blanket, at least.

Wanting to catch up to the others during a gap in sessions (no December game), I joined another AL game with a bunch of level 1s. Storm King's Thunder 1-1, so plenty of mooks to kill. Then we went into some caves, and an impetuous ranger picked a fight with literally every mob there, which was very bad. But my monk, between the enhanced mobility and temp hp, did pretty well. (We would have definitely wiped, except for the level 5 cleric using Spirit Guardians and level 5 ranger finally rolling well.)

So I got my two milestones which cover the last 725 xp I needed to get to level 4 so I can spend 20 days of downtime to get to level 5. That said, before I play as level 5 and lock in my build for good, I think I'm going to switch to Way of Shadow. I like playing up the control/utility aspects of the class - we have a barbarian, we have a paladin, we have a ranger, we have a cleric, we have a sorcerer, we have a bard (depending who shows up at which session).

I've also found the lack of darkvision problematic, especially if I go Shadow and need pools of darkness, and don't want to spend Ki on darkvision. I use Mobile a ton to attack and run without an opportunity attack, but now that I have Stunning Strike, maybe I'll switch to Wood Elf (?).

Anyway, thanks for the guide, and the discussion!

jaappleton
2017-01-26, 10:20 AM
I wanted to say this is easily the best Monk handbook I've seen. No disrespect to other ones out there, but this has everything, up to date, and the OP takes peoples criticisms and thoughts into account instead of writing them off.

Thank you for writing this.

I also want to say I think the Monk class is one of the best designed in the game. Each Archetype can drastically alter the way you play. Sun Soul play very differently from Long Death, for example. Each has unique advantages and offers new ways to handle a situation.

It's a class I've wanted to play for a very long time, but I simply can never decide on what archetype because I see potential scenarios where each one is spectacular.

MonkeyIke
2017-01-26, 01:38 PM
I thought they changed it so any Kensei Weapon can count as a monk weapon for martial arts?

queyote
2017-01-26, 03:09 PM
I don't understand why people think radiant sunbolt is so good. I'd rate it as red. The reason is that it is not functionally very different from using daggers. Daggers are simple melee weapons which make them monk weapons. When thrown, they are still a melee weapon being used to make a ranged attack. Monk weapons use your unarmed damage die. Things you lose out on are the ability to do a flurry of blows at range, 10 feet of range, and radiant damage. But daggers can be thrown to 60 feet with disadvantage. The flurry of blows thing is the only meaningful loss but I generally think that you are always better off using your ki to disengage or stunning strike depending on if you need to live or kill. If I feel like I have to flurry I've lost value because stunning strike is too phenomenal so it isn't a big loss.

The fluff that it is a DBZ type kamehameha might appeal to some people but it is not a mechanically impactful option unless I'm missing something.

Maxilian
2017-01-26, 03:47 PM
I don't understand why people think radiant sunbolt is so good. I'd rate it as red. The reason is that it is not functionally very different from using daggers. Daggers are simple melee weapons which make them monk weapons. When thrown, they are still a melee weapon being used to make a ranged attack. Monk weapons use your unarmed damage die. Things you lose out on are the ability to do a flurry of blows at range, 10 feet of range, and radiant damage. But daggers can be thrown to 60 feet with disadvantage. The flurry of blows thing is the only meaningful loss but I generally think that you are always better off using your ki to disengage or stunning strike depending on if you need to live or kill. If I feel like I have to flurry I've lost value because stunning strike is too phenomenal so it isn't a big loss.

I have palyed the Sun Soul Monk (MC with Druid) and i can tell you, its pretty good, the extra range of the dagger is not really needed cause as a Monk you have a really high mobility so you will almost always have people at your range, it also it easier for the Monk to be a Hit and Run character, including with high lvl monsters that have a really good mobility (I rarely ever get hit), also being as a Sun Soul Monk you will rarely (to not say never) use Ki points to disengage (cause you will only melee someone you plan on stunning and they will, most likely, be alone).

Note: The Druid MC was mainly to be a Flying Lazer Snake :P (and it was fun as hell)

In general, the Sun Soul Monk will mostly be targeted by range weapons (And you have something to deal with this)

X3r4ph
2017-01-26, 04:05 PM
I thought they changed it so any Kensei Weapon can count as a monk weapon for martial arts?

Pretty sure Mearls caved in in the end and just said it was the same more or less. Would be interesting to see a fair analysis of the Kensei. It's a super intriguing Path but I have yet to figure out how to properly use it.

queyote
2017-01-26, 04:14 PM
I have palyed the Sun Soul Monk (MC with Druid) and i can tell you, its pretty good, the extra range of the dagger is not really needed cause as a Monk you have a really high mobility so you will almost always have people at your range

My point isn't that the dagger is better than the sunbolt. My point is that the sunbolt isn't meaningfully better than the dagger. The meaningful upgrade is that it can flurry, but I don't think a monk's most important use of ki is to flurry. I would much rather spend all my ki stunning. Flurry is a means of stunning more in a shorter time frame.

jaappleton
2017-01-26, 07:23 PM
I thought they changed it so any Kensei Weapon can count as a monk weapon for martial arts?

I talked with Mearls and Crawford about it on Twitter, and I'm the one who made the topic which led to the dozen or so pages of discussion on the Kensei and Tranquility monastic traditions.

The Kensei is in a gray area. The "Kensei weapons aren't Monk weapons" was an experiment by Mearls and Crawford, to see how things would play out. They wanted feedback on it. And the feedback they got was... Well, it was feedback. That's the important thing. (Hint: People were livid) I personally found it unnecessarily convoluted, to have an archetype with a subweapon set on a class that already gets a subweapon set.

The "Kensei weapons aren't Monk weapons" is, however, how it appears in the playtest material. And that's what is assessed here in the guide, I believe.

Mearls and Crawford have stated that the experiment is a failed one, and not worth continuing. There is a new Kensei draft already written, though we won't see it for awhile. What else is changed in the new Kensei draft? Nobody knows, but in that future draft, Kensei weapons are Monk weapons. Is there any other restriction, like it can't be a 2H weapon or anything? Nobody knows, except the designers.

So it is, in my opinion, somewhat impossible to rate the Kensei based on the playtest material, since its already been declared that it isn't right.

All this, by the way...? The information from Mearls and Crawford, the reveal about a second Kensei design, the "Kensei weapons not being Monk weapons is something we tried but it doesn't work"? That was all within 36 hours or so of the release of the UA article. So people didn't like it, and they heard it immediately.

That said, I think you somewhat have to rate the Kensei as green. What's your tables interpretation of it? If Kensei weapons are Monk weapons, and you can use Greatswords with Dex, and GWM in conjunction with Stunning Strike... Well, the archetype is gold, in my eyes. As it is written? Red.

jaappleton
2017-01-26, 07:32 PM
Also, you absolutely need to downgrade the Sun Soul's lv11 ability. Why?

No half damage on a miss, and its a Con save. That's not Blue. That's Black at best, and borderline violet.

DracoKnight
2017-01-26, 09:59 PM
I have palyed the Sun Soul Monk (MC with Druid) and i can tell you, its pretty good, the extra range of the dagger is not really needed cause as a Monk you have a really high mobility so you will almost always have people at your range, it also it easier for the Monk to be a Hit and Run character, including with high lvl monsters that have a really good mobility (I rarely ever get hit), also being as a Sun Soul Monk you will rarely (to not say never) use Ki points to disengage (cause you will only melee someone you plan on stunning and they will, most likely, be alone).

Note: The Druid MC was mainly to be a Flying Lazer Snake :P (and it was fun as hell)

In general, the Sun Soul Monk will mostly be targeted by range weapons (And you have something to deal with this)

Also, on top of that, it specifies that the bolts are spell attacks, which get doubled by certain effects in the game, such as the Spell Sniper feat, or Sorcerers' Distant Spell Meta Magic.

DracoKnight
2017-01-26, 10:00 PM
Pretty sure Mearls caved in in the end and just said it was the same more or less. Would be interesting to see a fair analysis of the Kensei. It's a super intriguing Path but I have yet to figure out how to properly use it.

Can I point you to this article (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2017/01/unearthed-analysis-monastic-traditions.html)?

GandalfTheWhite
2017-01-26, 11:10 PM
Can I point you to this article (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2017/01/unearthed-analysis-monastic-traditions.html)?

I agree 100% on the Way of Tranquility. It's bullsh!t, plain and simple.

EDIT: And I say this as my group's resident Life Cleric who has stopped healing because I constantly get upstaged by the Monk. I'm working with my DM to come up with a story reason to change domains, because of how bullsh!t it is. I'm not mad because I wanted to play a healer (actually I wanted to be a bit of a blaster cleric, and play a Light or Arcana cleric), I'm mad because it's just so much better at what the Life Cleric is supposed to be the best at.

X3r4ph
2017-01-27, 03:43 AM
Can I point you to this article (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2017/01/unearthed-analysis-monastic-traditions.html)?

That was a very interesting run down of Kensei. Thank you for that.

DracoKnight
2017-01-27, 03:48 AM
That was a very interesting run down of Kensei. Thank you for that.

Happy to provide it! I'm also willing to discuss it more, if you wish :smallsmile: That was just the fastest way to deliver my overall analysis.

X3r4ph
2017-01-27, 10:43 AM
Happy to provide it! I'm also willing to discuss it more, if you wish :smallsmile: That was just the fastest way to deliver my overall analysis.Are you running Middle Finger of Vecna?
Personally I am really looking forward to seeing a complete version from WotC. Adding 3 Martial Weapons to your list of Monk Weapons would be a simple solution to it's current weirdness. It opens up for a lot of fun builds. Off the top of my head I see 4e Avenger style characters making a comeback.

I wouldn't mind adding a little complexity to it either. Perhaps let the AC bonus, pummel and the precise strike cost Ki points. The more you use, the better the ability.
Perhaps one could skip the flat AC bonus completely and instead expand on the Deflect Missiles ability to incorporate melee attacks. I love the visuals of a master swordsman parrying and smacking the opponents sword into his own face.

Syll
2017-01-27, 11:03 AM
On the topic of feats: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507419-Best-feat-for-variant-human-monk-at-level-1&p=21438167#post21438167)

I would HEAVILY caution editing your feats based on the suggestions of a single poster. Especially one with an extreme prejudice towards them. But , without wanting to rehash the whole thread, there are a number of posts there discussing the value of certain feats for monk. Mobile absolutely rates higher than violet.

DracoKnight
2017-01-27, 11:39 AM
Are you running Middle Finger of Vecna?
Personally I am really looking forward to seeing a complete version from WotC. Adding 3 Martial Weapons to your list of Monk Weapons would be a simple solution to it's current weirdness. It opens up for a lot of fun builds. Off the top of my head I see 4e Avenger style characters making a comeback.

I wouldn't mind adding a little complexity to it either. Perhaps let the AC bonus, pummel and the precise strike cost Ki points. The more you use, the better the ability.
Perhaps one could skip the flat AC bonus completely and instead expand on the Deflect Missiles ability to incorporate melee attacks. I love the visuals of a master swordsman parrying and smacking the opponents sword into his own face.

All of those are fun possibilities!

I do not run Middle Finger of Vecna, I'm a staff writer. Our editor and project manager is The Finger, or Scarce - as he's known here in the Playground.

HPisBS
2017-01-30, 07:54 PM
Can I point you to this article?

My reaction was pretty much the opposite of yours lol.

Kensei didn't really do anything for me (besides remind me of "Kenichi the Mightiest Disciple" lol). The bonus weapons struck me as pure fluff, being even less significant than open hand techniques (I've spent my 1st and only year of dnd so far playing an Open Hand Monk), the pummeling is weaker than a bonus unarmed strike from the beginning, and the bonus AC - which *should* be awesome! - requires you to forgo using those other features to make an unarmed strike with your Attack action instead of that cool kensei weapon! (At least by strict RAW. Certain dms may handwave that away.)

Kensei weapons counting as magic is perfectly appropriate, but the other part of that lvl 6 feature is absolutely terrible. You double your proficiency bonus to hit, but doing so costs you your bonus action (which would be better spent making at least one extra attack) and you have to choose to do this *before* you make your roll (unlike other bonuses, like bardic inspiration, which is potentially a bigger bonus, too), so you won't even know how much of a waste it was until after the fact. On second thought, the limit of 1/rest - which was my first reason for disliking it - may actually be something of a positive because at least it keeps you from wasting too many bonus actions using this terrible feature!

I'd originally thought the lvl 11 bonus wouldn't stack with the weapon's built in bonus, but a second look shows that's not the case. So lvl 11 is actually a really solid and appropriate feature.

And of course, lvl 17 is obviously great and appropriate.

The thing is it definitely shouldn't take reaching lvl 11 to start getting good features.
I get that those martial weapons can make a character feel more cool and all, and if that particular fluff is all you really want, then I guess Kensei delivers from the beginning. If not... then it's likely to disappoint you for a long time.

DracoKnight
2017-01-30, 08:15 PM
DracoKnight, my reaction was pretty much the opposite of yours lol.

Kensei didn't really do anything for me (besides remind me of "Kenichi the Mightiest Disciple" lol). The bonus weapons struck me as pure fluff, being even less significant than open hand techniques (I've spent my 1st and only year of dnd so far playing an Open Hand Monk), the pummeling is weaker than a bonus unarmed strike from the beginning, and the bonus AC - which *should* be awesome! - requires you to forgo using those other features to make an unarmed strike with your Attack action instead of that cool kensei weapon! (At least by strict RAW. Certain dms may handwave that away.)

Kensei weapons counting as magic is perfectly appropriate, but the other part of that lvl 6 feature is absolutely terrible. You double your proficiency bonus to hit, but doing so costs you your bonus action (which would be better spent making at least one extra attack) and you have to choose to do this *before* you make your roll (unlike other bonuses, like bardic inspiration, which is potentially a bigger bonus, too), so you won't even know how much of a waste it was until after the fact. On second thought, the limit of 1/rest - which was my first reason for disliking it - may actually be something of a positive because at least it keeps you from wasting too many bonus actions using this terrible feature!

I'd originally thought the lvl 11 bonus wouldn't stack with the weapon's built in bonus, but a second look shows that's not the case. So lvl 11 is actually a really solid and appropriate feature.

And of course, lvl 17 is obviously great and appropriate.

The thing is it definitely shouldn't take reaching lvl 11 to start getting good features.
I get that those martial weapons can make a character feel more cool and all, and if that particular fluff is all you really want, then I guess Kensei delivers from the beginning. If not... then it's likely to disappoint you for a long time.

I will let you know how accurate my analysis is - I'm getting ready to play a kensei in a game. We're currently level 0, but we're about to level up to 1st level, and I'm choosing the archetype at 3rd.

Saggo
2017-01-30, 08:20 PM
My point isn't that the dagger is better than the sunbolt. My point is that the sunbolt isn't meaningfully better than the dagger. The meaningful upgrade is that it can flurry, but I don't think a monk's most important use of ki is to flurry. I would much rather spend all my ki stunning. Flurry is a means of stunning more in a shorter time frame.
You can only draw 1 dagger a turn, 2 if you have Dual Wielder which is mostly wasted on Monk. That alone makes Sun Soul meaningful.

Hawkstar
2017-01-30, 08:22 PM
The Path of Tranquility makes me wish they'd remove/replace the Open Fist Monk's level 11 ability with something more martially-inclined.

Arcangel4774
2017-01-30, 09:09 PM
It's a rule lawyers argument, but the same language that portrays brutal critical only doing 1d6 extra for mauls and crits is used in the replacing damage die portion in kensai.

HPisBS
2017-01-30, 09:19 PM
Can I point you to this article?

...Meanwhile, Tranquility got me excited.

(Sorry in advance for the really long post lol.

Tldr: Tranquility is fairly balanced overall and just needs some minor tweaks.)

The lvl 3 sanctuary feature is what the Open Hand's lvl 11 *should've* been from the beginning, instead of a one-off that you'll probably dump for the whole day just as soon as the first combat starts.
- I'll agree with you insomuch as its probably a tad OP for a lvl 3 feature, but that's clearly balanced out by the uselessness of lvls 6 and 11 in (unavoidable) combat.
- Ditto for Healing Hands. I was always underwhelmed by the Open Hand's self-healing. Granted, this takes it too far in the other direction, but still.

I fully understand your distaste for how much healing it is, but I wouldn't say it really outclasses other healers. Yes, its double what paladins get, but they also get cure wounds and even AoE healing, which no pure monk does, and which are even better on life clerics. (Well maybe not all paladins lol. My party's usually blows all his slots smiting every mook he sees; not much room to cast heals when you nova all your spells away the first chance you get lol)
Healing Hands is indeed OP, but not quite to the degree you make it out to be. After all, the archetype literally gets Zero offensive features until its capstone at lvl 17! So if you're gonna go pure defense with the archetype, you'd better be darn good at it.

-- That said, I'd still nerf Healing Hands, just not quite as much as you. I'd say the equivalent of Lay on Hands + the ability to metamagic ki into more healing would strike just the right balance.

The lvl 6 is a great pure roleplay feature that actually helps the character, and even the whole party, survive by avoiding combat altogether. That's what the archetype was built for, and this helps to achieve it. I'd wager that proficiency + advantage is better than double proficiency - especially at lower levels, like lvl 6 for example.

Lvl 11 is sort of a mixed bag, as you yourself wrote. That plethora of limitations means it's best used on enemy leaders, or on enemies you can manage to get one on one.
- But consider this: you could also use it on your *allies.* I'm sure we've all played with a murderhobo or two. If you have a hotheaded ally that you just *know* is going to start something while you're doing your best to be an emissary of peace, you can chill him right out. Now that *player* may not be too thrilled with you, but hopefully he'd understand that it's appropriate for your character... at least if you don't do this to him too often.

Now for the lvl 17. Really, it makes the whole "pacifist characters" rant seem rather out of place. This feature alone should inform you of the kind of character that the Way of Tranquility is supposed to support; it's perfect for anyone who likes the NAP (non-aggression principle). Basically, do everything you can to resolve and diffuse situations peacefully, but when peace is unmanageable, when a hostile takes that first swing, you take them out. And when they take down your ally or some innocent, then you take them out *hard.*

The lvl 17 is great thematically, but mechanically.... Well, I'm not a fan of 1/rest features as a general rule, and this has even more debilitating limits on top of that. I really don't want to have to let an ally go down before I can start getting serious and access my capstone (and *only* offensive archetype feature). EspecIally since I'm a healer! What's more, it only works on the one enemy who triggered you. What if that's just some little goon who was already half dead that finally downed your ally, and now you finish off that smallfry with just one hit? RAW, you suddenly cool down and what little anger-fuelled damage you had left (yes, 17/hit is "little" when it's limited to just 1 round, once per rest) just drains right out, even if you and all your allies are still surrounded by the big bad and all his minions. Not satisfied with that.

Really, the Open Hand is the bar everything is measured against. With that in mind, I guess Tranquility is actually fairly balanced overall. It gets OH's middle features from the get-go, but way, WAY better. In exchange, it misses out on the offensive upgrade OH starts out with, and gets some social(ish) features instead, which should let you prevent some combat from ever starting. Then, you have the capstone. Now, obviously, nothing will ever be as strong as OH's Quivering Palm, and most monk capstones are way inferior by comparison. But even so, this Anger of a Gentle Soul, while perfectly thematic, is still way on down the list in my view. The limits on it are just too debilitating. It's still good, but not nearly good enough for a one-off. At least I don't think so.

So yeah. Tranquility still needs a little work. A *slight* nerf to Healing Hands, and the opposite for the capstone, would put the archetype right where it needs to be for balance. (I'd like a little tweak to lvl 11, too, but it's not really necessary, all things considered.)

I've already transitioned my lvl 9 OH into Tranquility. -- It fits my libertarian character better anyway :)

Vogonjeltz
2017-01-30, 09:29 PM
EM uses the spell point guide in the DMG.

The fact that you've never played it means you're vastly underestimating the tradition.

With two short rests and spending half of your ki on spells, you're equivalent to an EK. Spend all of your ki on spells and you're a stronger spellcaster than a paladin.

Or you don't and you're just as good as any other monk. The tradition provides versatility.

The archetype rates solidly in the violet; maybe borderline violet-blue. But it's definitely not red.

He also rated minor illusion as light blue for combat. Pretty much sucks the credibility out of the post.

Specter
2017-01-30, 09:49 PM
Good one. A few things to note:

- There's no reason to rate INT lower than CHA. Both are dump stats with the same value.
- While Tranquility seems like a very lame ability, it can be golden under the right circumstances. If an assassin sneaks up on you, he stills needs to pull off a good save to try to damage you. Having a bad initiative score matters less with it too.

queyote
2017-01-31, 12:44 AM
You can only draw 1 dagger a turn, 2 if you have Dual Wielder which is mostly wasted on Monk. That alone makes Sun Soul meaningful.

Think about it in terms of actual play. I start the combat with two daggers in hand, throw them both because I have extra attack, draw a dagger, end turn. Turn 2, draw dagger, throw 2 daggers. Turn 3, take the turn off of throwing daggers, punch a guy, draw a dagger. Turn 4, draw dagger, throw both. Most combats end by then.

In a 2 round combat I can throw every turn. In a 4 round combat, I have to take a turn off. That assumes that attacking from range is something I even do every round because I want to be stunning strike pretty often. So the uptime is high even though I have to draw daggers slowly.

To be clear, I'm not saying the archetype sucks. I think the other abilities are very useful. But sunbolt is not enough better than a dagger to rate it even as average. If I'm playing a 3rd level character in a one-shot, I would just use daggers if I want a ranged attack option.

Hawkstar
2017-01-31, 01:01 AM
So, you can make daggers sort of work if you restrict yourself to half the attacks you can put out. Got it.

Zene
2017-01-31, 01:50 AM
Thanks for putting this guide together!

I'm having a hard time deciding between vhuman with mobile or wood elf for my open hand monk. I know the guide rates vhuman lower because stat increases are important, but I dont see how having a 17 at L1 is any better than a 16 when there are no +1 feats worth taking for a monk. Darkvision is nice, but I don't plan on being too stealthy with this character so I don't mind using a torch. Any thoughts?

Also: If I end up doing a 1-level cleric dip, when's a good time to take it? After Monk 5?

Saggo
2017-01-31, 01:55 AM
Think about it in terms of actual play. I start the combat with two daggers in hand, throw them both because I have extra attack, draw a dagger, end turn. Turn 2, draw dagger, throw 2 daggers. Turn 3, take the turn off of throwing daggers, punch a guy, draw a dagger. Turn 4, draw dagger, throw both. Most combats end by then.

In a 2 round combat I can throw every turn. In a 4 round combat, I have to take a turn off. That assumes that attacking from range is something I even do every round because I want to be stunning strike pretty often. So the uptime is high even though I have to draw daggers slowly.

To be clear, I'm not saying the archetype sucks. I think the other abilities are very useful. But sunbolt is not enough better than a dagger to rate it even as average. If I'm playing a 3rd level character in a one-shot, I would just use daggers if I want a ranged attack option.

That's extremely fiddly, breaks down the moment the you're caught without 2 drawn daggers (highly likely) and you're never going to get the kind of ranged burst 3-4 sunbolts will give. Probably not throwing that many magical daggers, either.

Daggers work, you've shown that, but they're not going to best sunbolts.

HPisBS
2017-01-31, 12:48 PM
Thanks for putting this guide together!

I'm having a hard time deciding between vhuman with mobile or wood elf for my open hand monk. I know the guide rates vhuman lower because stat increases are important, but I dont see how having a 17 at L1 is any better than a 16 when there are no +1 feats worth taking for a monk. Darkvision is nice, but I don't plan on being too stealthy with this character so I don't mind using a torch. Any thoughts?

Also: If I end up doing a 1-level cleric dip, when's a good time to take it? After Monk 5?

Whether you do a lot of stealth depends as much on your party as your character. But that's ok because there's also Goggles of Night (uncommon, no attunement) to let your human have darkvision, too.

Assuming standard array, your wood elf wouldn't have 17 at lvl 1, it'd be two 16s. You'd combine the +2 Dex with your 14, and the +1 Wis with your 15.

For my OH monk, I went vhuman with magic initiate warlock for hex (up to +4d6 / round, lasts up to 1 hour), eldritch blast (some decent long-range capability, don't really use it that often), and mage hand. But since we used standard array, being a vhuman means I won't be able to max both Dex & Wis untill lvl 19, when I get my fifth ASI. Lots of MADness there.

Feats are great, but a monk will often get more mileage from a higher Wis or Dex mod. And besides, OH doesn't really need Mobile because open hand techniques include the option of preventing enemies' reactions entirely. I know you're probably wanting to use the feat as a failsafe for when enemies make their (stun / prone / push) saves, but it really isn't necessary because you have that other technique to fall back on when escaping is more important than pushing or tripping... less enticing though it may be.

As for dipping Cleric: you're right, you generally want to reach monk 5 asap for stuns and extra attack.
But it also kinda depends on what you want to get out of it - healing, defense, or even more offense. So which domain(s) are you looking at?

Oh, and Observant is a +1 that's nice on pretty much everyone.

Zene
2017-01-31, 02:30 PM
Whether you do a lot of stealth depends as much on your party as your character. But that's ok because there's also Goggles of Night (uncommon, no attunement) to let your human have darkvision, too.

Assuming standard array, your wood elf wouldn't have 17 at lvl 1, it'd be two 16s. You'd combine the +2 Dex with your 14, and the +1 Wis with your 15.

For my OH monk, I went vhuman with magic initiate warlock for hex (up to +4d6 / round, lasts up to 1 hour), eldritch blast (some decent long-range capability, don't really use it that often), and mage hand. But since we used standard array, being a vhuman means I won't be able to max both Dex & Wis untill lvl 19, when I get my fifth ASI. Lots of MADness there.

Feats are great, but a monk will often get more mileage from a higher Wis or Dex mod. And besides, OH doesn't really need Mobile because open hand techniques include the option of preventing enemies' reactions entirely. I know you're probably wanting to use the feat as a failsafe for when enemies make their saves, but it really isn't necessary.

As for dipping Cleric: you're right, you generally want to reach monk 5 asap for stuns and extra attack.
But it also kinda depends on what you want to get out of it - healing, defense, or even more offense. So which domain(s) are you looking at?

Oh, and Observant is a +1 that's nice on pretty much everyone.

I'm using point buy instead of standard array. So I can do 16 dex 16 wis with either a wood elf or human, or 17 dex 16 wis with a wood elf. So if I want double 16s, there's no real benefit to the +2 to dex that the wood elf gets --it just means I'll have a couple extra points for a higher score in a dump stat. If I want 17 dex and then top off at L4 with a +1 dex feat, that'd definitely be an option, except there don't seem to be any good +1 dex feats for a monk.

So really I'm comparing the darkvision and +5 movement from elf with the feat from human. If they come out mostly even, I'm leaning human because it fits the character's RP concept slightly better.

For Mobile, it's a little bit because the free disengage, because that'll allow me to use the open hand feature for prone or knockback on a hit instead of reaction prevention. But it's also a little bit because of the ability to ignore difficult terrain and the movement speed boost. I know none of those things are as useful to an open hand monk as they are to non-monk classes, but they still seem like they might be slightly more useful than darkvision, lucky, or alert (it's a tough call on lucky and alert, though).

For cleric, I'm mostly doing it to fit the character's RP concept. But picking up guidance, bless, and emergency healing are nice bonuses. I'm also in no hurry to do it, though, so if there are post-L5 monk milestones that would be painful to delay, I'd probably want to hit those first. For domains, I'm thinking war domain for access to Divine Favor, but I'm definitely open to other options. Also considering Arcana for the extra cantrips. I briefly considered Nature for access to Thorn Whip, but it seems like giving up 4 attacks to use it will almost never be a good idea. Any others I should be considering? Is Light's reaction useful for a Monk?

jaappleton
2017-01-31, 02:34 PM
Zene,

You're missing a few things. Don't pare the +5ft movement and the Darkvision to a feat. You're forgetting the free Perception proficiency VS any skill proficiency, and Fey Ancestry, and the ability to hide in natural surroundings.

Don't forget about the base Elf abilities!

Zene
2017-01-31, 02:48 PM
Zene,

You're missing a few things. Don't pare the +5ft movement and the Darkvision to a feat. You're forgetting the free Perception proficiency VS any skill proficiency, and Fey Ancestry, and the ability to hide in natural surroundings.

Don't forget about the base Elf abilities!

Also Trance. Don't get me wrong, those are all nice. I just don't see them coming up much. Perception, sure, but like you said that can be taken with the human's free skill too.

Fishyninja
2017-01-31, 02:50 PM
Also Trance. Don't get me wrong, those are all nice. I just don't see them coming up much. Perception, sure, but like you said that can be taken with the human's free skill too.

Zene, I saw you started a thread about a Way of the Long Death Monk. Did you still have questions as I am currently playing as one?

DracoKnight
2017-01-31, 02:52 PM
I know you're probably wanting to use the feat as a failsafe for when enemies make their saves, but it really isn't necessary.

It really isn't necessary, since that particular part of the OH feature doesn't require a save, it just happens.

Zene
2017-01-31, 03:30 PM
It really isn't necessary, since that particular part of the OH feature doesn't require a save, it just happens.

It does require a hit, though, and has an opportunity cost as well (can't prone or knockback on that hit). Mobile has neither. It's like getting a free open hand feature on every attack, while still being able to stack it with other open hand features. (It sounds like I'm arguing for it-- I'm really not, just trying to get a sense for how useful it would be).


Zene, I saw you started a thread about a Way of the Long Death Monk. Did you still have questions as I am currently playing as one?

I'm currently leaning more toward open hand, as the battlefield control options of open hand are more appealing to me than the unkillability of long death -- still darn tempting though. Have you played both? Any thoughts on how they compare?

DracoKnight
2017-01-31, 03:44 PM
It does require a hit, though, and has an opportunity cost as well (can't prone or knockback on that hit). Mobile has neither. It's like getting a free open hand feature on every attack, while still being able to stack it with other open hand features. (It sounds like I'm arguing for it-- I'm really not, just trying to get a sense for how useful it would be).

Oh, it's definitely useful. Sorry, I was just correcting his assumption that that part of the feature requires a save. I usually take Mobile on all of the monks I play, but I also usually play Way of Shadow.

Fishyninja
2017-01-31, 03:59 PM
It does require a hit, though, and has an opportunity cost as well (can't prone or knockback on that hit). Mobile has neither. It's like getting a free open hand feature on every attack, while still being able to stack it with other open hand features. (It sounds like I'm arguing for it-- I'm really not, just trying to get a sense for how useful it would be).



I'm currently leaning more toward open hand, as the battlefield control options of open hand are more appealing to me than the unkillability of long death -- still darn tempting though. Have you played both? Any thoughts on how they compare?

I can say that I have only played WOTLD however I feel they are relatively comparible in a loit of ways. Remember from just being a Monk you get:

Martial Die
Slow Fall
Deflect Arrows
Unarmoured Movement
Unarmoured defence
Stunning Strike
Ki Empowered Strikes....etc.

When you look at WOTLD it is definately more focused on keeping you alive:

Touch of Death

So my Level for monk with my stats gains 6 temp hp on a kill.

Mastery of Death
Beginning at 11th level, you use your familiarity with death to escape its grasp. When you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can expend 1 ki point (no action required) to have 1 hit point instead.


While WOTOH gives you Wholeness of Body
At 6th level, you gain the ability to heal yourself. As an
action, you can regain hit points equal to three times your monk level

Both give you some form of crowd control WOTOH via Open Hand Technique in essence allows you to knock an enemy prone (very powerful), push an enemy away, great for attacking, disengaging and missing an AOO, forcing them to not take reactions.

WOTLD gives you Hour of Reaping:
At 6th level, you gain the ability to unsettle or terrify those around you as an action, for your soul has been touched by the shadow of death. As an action, each creature within 30 feet of you that can see you must make a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

And both have a save or die move with Quivering Palm and Touch of the Long Death, the only difference is that with Touch of the Long Death you don't have to be in contact, you just have to touch an enemy.

I still feel like a crowd controller, however I do like the tankiness of it considering I have a squishy party.

HPisBS
2017-01-31, 10:25 PM
Oh, it's definitely useful. Sorry, I was just correcting his assumption that that part of the feature requires a save. I usually take Mobile on all of the monks I play, but I also usually play Way of Shadow.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The saves I was referring to were stun / prone / push. I know from experience that an OH will mostly want to use his FoB techniques to prone enemies for advantage, and sometimes to push for environmental hazards (I had one seriously epic moment where I kicked an orc right off a building :smallcool: ). Very rarely will he want to settle for merely preventing reactions via the non-save technique when he can effectively get a two-for-one with either of the other techniques.

So, if you want to hit and run, but they make all their stun / prone / push saves, then it'd be nice to have a failsafe in Mobile. That's what I meant.

Desamir
2017-02-01, 07:05 PM
Darkvision if a light source would keep you from being undetected it might be usefull, but generally you dont want to spend your KI points on it



Darkvision This is a waste of Ki.


I've also found the lack of darkvision problematic, especially if I go Shadow and need pools of darkness, and don't want to spend Ki on darkvision.

You guys are nuts. Darkvision lasts for 8 hours and your ki comes back after a 1-hour short rest. If you or anyone else in your party is lacking Darkvision, now they get it, all day, for free.

That means you don't have to use light sources anymore. Considering half of your abilities rely on darkness, that's a pretty big deal.

The only time it's useless is if you and everyone else in your party already has Darkvision. It should be blue or light blue the rest of the time.

D.U.P.A.
2017-02-02, 09:32 PM
Is there any magic item that would augment Sun soul ranged attack?

Maxilian
2017-02-03, 10:49 AM
Is there any magic item that would augment Sun soul ranged attack?

One of the Ioun Stones works (The Agility that increases your Dex +2)

If you happen to be a Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard (a MC into one of those), the Staff of Power give you +2 to your spell attacks or the Staff of the Magi.

Staff of the Woodlands also works (need to be a Druid though) and also give you +2 to spell attacks

If you happen to be MC with Cleric or Paladin, Talisman of Pure Good give you a +2 to spell attacks (Need to have a Good alignment), The Talisman of Ultimate evil works the same way (Need to be an Evil Cleric or Paladin)

Wand of the War Mage also increase your spell attack (from +1 to +3), You may not need MC for this, as you may be seen as a caster as you can already cast some spells (From your Monastic Tradition)

Note: I will ignore Sentient and stronger magic items

Peachie
2017-02-18, 03:55 AM
I found a one level dip into life cleric (with magic initiate goodberry) quite strong. It was a good way to have a healing monk prior to the path of tranquillity. Maybe it should be mentioned? :smallsmile:

BladeWing81
2017-02-22, 01:55 PM
Is there any magic item that would augment Sun soul ranged attack?

just a basic option is to become a Human +1 to get Charisma 13 and you'll have access to MC fiend warlock which will yield the all powerful Hex tat can add 1d6 to each one of your radiant sun bolts (up to an extra 4d6 when all attacks hit) not to mention you'll also get 2 cantrips, burning hands and 2 temp hp per kill, going 2 to 3 (3 lvl max recomended) lvls of warlock only improves the benefits with another hex slot, eldritch invocations and pact of the tome or blade.

labmouse42
2017-02-23, 10:11 AM
I've ran some math on the Kensei this morning and this is what I came up with...

Why It's Broken
The key issue with the entire thing is that you must be "Wielding Monk Weapons or Unarmed" in order to use martial arts. In order to get your extra attack, "When you use the attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action" This means if you take a Glaive or Maul and smack someone in the face, then you cannot use the bonus action for another attack.

Dropping/Sheathe Your Weapon
Page 190 of the BRB says "you can interact with one object or feature in your environment for free" Drawing or sheathing a sword is listed here. So is dropping an axe. For our examples, lets say that we are using a greatsword and every turn we will either be drawing it or sheathing it. The critical part is that you may use this action during your attack. It specifically states that you can draw your weapon as part of your attack.

Flurry of Blows
Flurry of blows does not require the player to be wielding an unarmed/monk weapon to get the extra two attacks. It is perfectly legitimate to make a strike with the sword, sheathe the sword as your 'free action' then use flurry to kick your target in the face twice.

Extra Attack
At level five, monks gain the ability to attack twice when using the attack action. At this point, the ability to use the unarmed attack as a bonus action opens up. During your turn, you take the following options.
* Attack with sword / free action to sheathe sword / attack with unarmed / bonus action to attack unarmed.
* Free action to draw sword / attack with sword / attack with sword / Strike with Sword Hilt
You cannot draw the sword and use the martial arts in the same round as a bonus action as the act of holding your sword prevents you from using the martial arts bonus action.

Gaining Bonus AC
The only way to gain the bonus AC is to end the turn holding a kensai weapon and you made an unarmored strike. This means you could do the following sequence and get a +2 to AC. On levels 3 and 4, you would be limited to one unarmed strike then drawing the sword. If the sword is already drawn there is no way you can do this, unless you want to hit for only 1 point of damage.
* Unarmed Strike / Free action to draw sword / attack with sword / Strike with Sword Hilt

Ranged Attacks
One of the hidden features of this is the ability to turn a ranged weapon that does Monk Damage. This means if you wanted to throw darts for d10 damage each, you can. The most practical weapon available, however, is the longbow, which will increase to D10 damage at level 17.
If an enemy gets close, the monk can shoot twice, drop the bow, the flurry for 2 more strikes.
If there are no close enemies, then shoot twice, using 'precise strike' to double your prof bonus on one of the shots.
While I don't think a 'bow monk' is a great concept, it's an additional item in the Kensei's toolkit that other monks don't have.

So How Much Better Is The Sword over The Staff?
When comparing this subclass to another monk, lets look and see what exactly we gain by going with two handed sword over a quarterstaff. The staff does d8 damage (4.5 on average) and the sword does 2d6 (7 on average). That is 2.5 extra damage a strike. The cost of this damage increase is that the ability to do unarmed strikes is limited.

Lets take our use case above.
: * Attack with sword / free action to sheathe sword / attack with unarmed / bonus action to attack unarmed.
: * Attack with quarterstaff / quarterstaff / bonus action to attack unarmed.
The damage difference depends on the base unarmed damage. In these examples, we are going to max out DEX.
* At level 1, the Kensei is doing 15.5 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 13.
* At level 5, the Kensei is doing 26 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 24.5.
* At level 11, the Kensei is doing 31 to the quarterstaff monk's 28.5.

The problem is that in the second round, the monk with the greatsword's damage drops since the monk is forced to pummel, which does not give a dex bonux to damage.
* At level 1, the Kensei is doing 12.5 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 13.
* At level 5, the Kensei is doing 26.5 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 24.5.
* At level 11, the Kensei is doing 26.5 to the quarterstaff monk's 28.5.

If using a shortsword, the Kensi's damage is the following. In this instance the monk can hold the sword and do unarmed strikes.
* At level 1, the Kensei is doing 12 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 13.
* At level 5, the Kensei is doing 25.5 damage and the quarterstaff monk is doing 24.5.
* At level 11, the Kensei is doing 28.5 to the quarterstaff monk's 28.5.

The Rundown
At the end of the day, there is not much damage output difference between the Kensai and another subclass of Monk. The Kensei at level 11 is doing 57.5 damage over 2 rounds, and the quaterstaff monk is dealing 57. Even with 'sharpen the blade', the kensei is doing only 65 damage over 2 rounds compared to 57, which the quarterstaff monk can catch up with through 3 uses of 'flurry of blows'.

Summary
You can make the Kensei work through picking up and dropping your weapons. It's clunky but it's possible.
The only advantage is to be able to use a bow -- something you can duplicate by playing a elf. Given the opportunity cost lost by not taking one of the other subclasses, I would rate the Kensei as the worst subclass for Monks, and likely the worst in the game. What other class gives you no advantages over a vanilla class?

It could be fixed if they let Kensei weapons count as monk weapons. Then the damage output would scale decently, trading utility for raw damage.

DracoKnight
2017-02-23, 12:14 PM
It could be fixed if they let Kensei weapons count as monk weapons. Then the damage output would scale decently, trading utility for raw damage.

They've got a version where Kensei weapons are monk weapons. They were just experimenting with the "martial weapons are kensei weapons but don't count as monk weapons." When the Kensei gets an official release (or UA rerelease) it won't feature that - it'll have Kensei weapons count as monk weapons.

labmouse42
2017-02-23, 01:04 PM
They've got a version where Kensei weapons are monk weapons. They were just experimenting with the "martial weapons are kensei weapons but don't count as monk weapons." When the Kensei gets an official release (or UA rerelease) it won't feature that - it'll have Kensei weapons count as monk weapons.In the official release this is the case, it changes the numbers a little bit.

More Consistent Damage
The nice thing is that it increases the base damage to 2d6, which is statically better than 1d12. Furthermore it also gives more of a bell curve of results, so your damage is more consistent. Personally I'd rather more consistent strikes than wild swings in damage. Don't get me wrong, we sometimes roll like crap. We will just roll like crap more commonly on a single dice than on two.

Sharpening Vs Flurry
Sharpening a weapon for 3 ki gives you up to 10 rounds of +3 damage. Given that you will be using the weapon twice a round, this means your potential damage increase is 60 points! The reality is that most of the time the damage increase will be a lot less, as the battle might be over within a minute, or you decide to only make 1 attack for the +2 AC

In comparison, three flurry of blows will grant three extra attacks, which at level 11 will do 25.5 extra damage. Again, we are not talking apples vs oranges here, as we have the variable of flight length to consider. A good rule of thumb on break-even points is 4 rounds of combat. If you are going more than that, then the sharpening is better, if you are going less then the flurry is more effective.

To Hit Or Not To Hit
The course, all the above math assumes that you are always hitting, which is not the case! The sharpened weapon also gives +3 to hit, which is an increase of 15%. On a d20 system, this is significant, meaning the chances of missing your target can drop from 40% to 25%. It means that your 'actual damage output' increase from sharpened will be greater than what was illustrated below? How much greater? That depends on your target. Going from a 80% to 95% chance to hit is not that much greater. Doing from a 20% to a 35% to hit will nearly double your damage on the target.

But Wait...There's More!
The real strength of "Sharpen the Blade" and "Unerring Accuracy" come when you add in the feat Great Weapon Master. The accuracy loss of GWM is greatly reduced by StB. Your net loss of accuracy is 10% (before the reroll), for a damage potential increase of +20 a round.

This means that a level 11 Kensei monk with a two handed sword (assuming that he can use martial arts) can do this a turn.
2d6 + 5 + 3 + 10 / 2d6 + 5 + 3 + 10 / 1d8 + 5 or 59.5 damage per round (69 with flurry)

TheWrathofshane
2019-08-02, 12:04 AM
One of the most powerful core monk features in combat is stunning strike. They get that at lvl 5 along with two attacks. A good strategy is successfully stun the opponent for 1 round, AND knock prone in the same round. When an opponent is stunned, all your attacks have advantage against them, and they automatically fail strength and dexterity checks / saves. So if you stun with your first attack, your 2nd attack can be used to take the shove action an automatically make them prone without a grapple check. Next round they will be prone, giving you advantage for all of your attacks. You can spend a ki point to attempt to reapply stun and chain keep them locked out of the fight. You only need to spend 1 attack on making them prone to start the chain advantage combo.

It is in this light we can see whats going on with open hand. They can do the full combo, but instead diverting one attack they can automatically make them fail and be prone, as well as knocking them 15 feet away for fun, if you land your furry of blows (with advantage). Next round if they choose they can attack the prone target, have the full attacks with advantage, and go for a chain stun. If they want they can do another furry of blows and knock them around 15 feet twice for a total of 30 feet.

The strength of this in light of the combination, is only saving you diverting 1 attack to accomplish prone. In that light the lvl 3 tradition opener for open hand is pretty weak, but badass at the same time. It makes you want to take it for the RP reasons of beating your opponents around the map. The first round they might be stunned, knocked on the floor and vaulted 15 feet away, while taking damage. Then you can go for chain stun and knocking them around more, proving to your enemies that you are not to be ****ed with.

The lvl 6 is a heal, its useful to have, so you cant really rag on it. I couldnt imagine any monk not wanting a decent heal once a day.

Tranquility at lvl 11 I feel is being underestimated here. You can totally control when its cast. You have sanctuary spell in effect for the entire day until you engage in combat by attacking. This means the enemy is going to have to pass a will save or be unable to attack you. This allows you to infiltrate behind enemy lines without the enemy having the ability to punish you for it. Also if you are by yourself (perhaps scouting solo), and a guard fails his will save, well that means he loses his attack against you. Which should translate into unable to raise the alarm. He cant attack you because he doesnt see you as a threat.

Regardless of the power of this, sanctuary normally only lasts 1 minute. The open hand at lvl 11 has this spell in effect all the time, until they make their first attack. Thats got to be worth something.

Now the lvl 17 is of course one of the most badass and rewarding abilities in the game. Hands down if your campaign makes it to lvl 17, that made open hand worthwhile in taking. But you cannot judge a subclass on the merits of its lvl 17 ability in my opinion.

jdizzlean
2019-08-02, 04:37 AM
The Mod Life Crisis: Thread Necromancy is frowned upon.