Cantrip Options for Evocation Wizard

[Saiga]

Hi everyone,

I am a fairly new player and I am going to be creating a Wizard for the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure. The character concept is specializing in the "four elements" and I figured Evocation would be a good school since I will mostly end up with damaging spells if I am mostly limiting myself to Earth, Fire, Water (Ice) or Wind (Lighting) spells.

Which leaves my wondering what Cantrips would work best with the Evocation features Potent Cantrip and Empowered Evocation. The only elemental spells that benefit from Potent Cantrip are Frostbite, Create Bonfire, and Thunderclap. Create Bonfire doesn't benefit from Empowered Evocation however, so I expect it to be less damaging than a good old Firebolt at higher levels.

I have done some comparisons of average damage at each level, but where I fall down is not knowing what baseline to use for saving throw success / attack rolls missing. Spells empowered by Potent Cantrip have higher average damage the more often attacks miss and saves are made, while Firebolt has more damage the more often saves are failed and attack rolls hit.

So to compare these three spells: Frostbite, Create Bonfire and Firebolt - I want to know if there is a baseline (most common) AC or saving throw proficiency so that I can determine just how reliable these spells are? Has anyone done these comparisons before to find the best cantrips to pair with these evocation abilities?

[djreynolds]

Lightning lure is nice and is a save, but you may not want the enemy near you.

Shocking grasp is cool,

Thuderclap is a nice cantrip

You get 5 cantrips, high elf will give you another, and seems silly for a wizard to take magic initiate but there is that.

Elemental adept is a good feat, I prefer lightning

[Gignere]

Ok first off blasting wizard is crappy. You can't just rely on it as a wizard. If you want to do that you would be better off rolling a sorcerer. Even evocation wizards will need to cast some buffs, crowd control, utility spells in order to be effective. If you solely blast with your wizard you will feel really gimped really fast.

I understand you have a character concept but the 5e blasting doesn't support your vision.

As for cantrips, get the range ones, never get into melee. Everything in PoTA can basically one shot you unless you have 16 con. I am playing the same module as a god wizard and literally almost every encounter are stuff that can kill me with a look. To survive you need to master positioning, and crowd control spells.

[jas61292]

Ok first off blasting wizard is crappy. You can't just rely on it as a wizard. If you want to do that you would be better off rolling a sorcerer. Even evocation wizards will need to cast some buffs, crowd control, utility spells in order to be effective. If you solely blast with your wizard you will feel really gimped really fast.

I understand you have a character concept but the 5e blasting doesn't support your vision.


Disagree completely. Almost nothing the sorcerer gets is good for blasting, but the evocation wizard is fantastic at it. The blasting sorc is a stereotype that just doesn't resemble fact in 5th edition. The evocation wizard on the other hand gets fantastic abilities for blasting, and far more spells known, which allows them to pick up all the blasting they want without sacrificing everything else.

Now as far as your cantrips go, I personally would always want Firebolt for its range and damage early on, but with all the features you eventually get, I am a big fan of Frostbite. I do not really have baseline AC/Saves for you to look at but I think that is ultimately a secondary concern. What is always good to do is have a few options and just take a guess what will be most effective by looking at armor and other characteristics of them, rather than just having one default to always use.

The other very important thing to take into account is secondary effects. While Frostbite unfortunately is a Con save, which a lot of strong monsters are good at, it has one of the best secondary effects of all cantrips. And, of course, with both class features effecting it, its damage is quite reliable once you get them. I also would take a look at Ray of Frost. While it might not be worth doubling up on cold spells if you do go with Frostbite, when compared to Firebolt, its a bit weaker and with shorter range, in exchange for an effect that, in my experience, is often far better than it sounds. Keeping an enemy far enough away so they cannot attack, is absolutely huge.

[Gignere]

Disagree completely. Almost nothing the sorcerer gets is good for blasting, but the evocation wizard is fantastic at it. The blasting sorc is a stereotype that just doesn't resemble fact in 5th edition. The evocation wizard on the other hand gets fantastic abilities for blasting, and far more spells known, which allows them to pick up all the blasting they want without sacrificing everything else.

Now as far as your cantrips go, I personally would always want Firebolt for its range and damage early on, but with all the features you eventually get, I am a big fan of Frostbite. I do not really have baseline AC/Saves for you to look at but I think that is ultimately a secondary concern. What is always good to do is have a few options and just take a guess what will be most effective by looking at armor and other characteristics of them, rather than just having one default to always use.

The other very important thing to take into account is secondary effects. While Frostbite unfortunately is a Con save, which a lot of strong monsters are good at, it has one of the best secondary effects of all cantrips. And, of course, with both class features effecting it, its damage is quite reliable once you get them. I also would take a look at Ray of Frost. While it might not be worth doubling up on cold spells if you do go with Frostbite, when compared to Firebolt, its a bit weaker and with shorter range, in exchange for an effect that, in my experience, is often far better than it sounds. Keeping an enemy far enough away so they cannot attack, is absolutely huge.

Huh what are you talking about sorcerer gets metamagic and the dragon sorcerer is tailored made to blast. When you can maintain sunbeam and still quicken fireballs you are freaking blasting, nothing an evocation wizard gets even comes close. You can heighten to give disadvantage to saves, you can careful to exclude target.

Also my comment is specific to PoTA every other monster seems to have advantage to saves and/or resistance to fire/ice/lightning. You would think that elemental evil would be good for an elemental blaster but it is just not true. There are fights if I didn't have magic missile I would literally be doing nothing.

[RulesJD]

Huh what are you talking about sorcerer gets metamagic and the dragon sorcerer is tailored made to blast. When you can maintain sunbeam and still quicken fireballs you are freaking blasting, nothing an evocation wizard gets even comes close. You can heighten to give disadvantage to saves, you can careful to exclude target.

Also my comment is specific to PoTA every other monster seems to have advantage to saves and/or resistance to fire/ice/lightning. You would think that elemental evil would be good for an elemental blaster but it is just not true. There are fights if I didn't have magic missile I would literally be doing nothing.

Yeah, ignore this poster. He clearly hasn't actually played a blaster using RAW.

For example, Careful metamagic is almost entirely useless for blasting spells. Sculpt Spell is significantly better because you are guaranteed zero damage. When your allies are concentrating on spells, even 1 damage matters because it forces concentration saves. So HUGE difference right off the bat, not to mention that the Evocation Wizard does it for free, all day long.

Next, Evocation Wizard is a 10x better blaster because of variety. Whereas a Sorc is locked in to one elemental type to add their damage, Evokers can do it to ALL Evocation spells, not just the ones that happen to have their damage type lineup.

Next, Potent Cantrip is fantastic for the same reason as Sculpt Spell. Because you can do guaranteed damage, you can force concentration saves. I prefer Create Bonfire because its an easy way to add damage for free when allies use it/you use it to plug a hallway. Sure there are better things to concentrate on, but for low level fights it adds up damage quickly and allows for some low level battlefield control.

Lastly, Evocation Wizards have the Wizard spell list aka Find Familiar for advantage on your blasting cantrips. Resistance to elemental damage is pretty moot because Elemental Adapt is a feat that exists. Outside of Fire Immune enemies (of which there are surprisingly few that aren't blatantly obvious), you won't have much trouble once you pick up that feat. V.Human means you can get it right off the bat.

Also, Melfs Minute Meteors means Evocation Wizards can still blast away to their heart's content (again, Sculpt Spell being 10x better than Careful Spell for blasting purposes) with Bonus Action and Main Action damage.

Sorcs aren't bad, but they aren't nearly as good blasters as Evocation Wizards. The only thing they have going for them is they're a more natural multiclass for a level or two of Warlock if you really want to go the single target blasting route.

Oh, and the single best blasting combo in the game is exclusive to Evocation Wizards, so there's that. Empowered Evocation + Magic Missile.

[Ethambutol]

Oh, and the single best blasting combo in the game is exclusive to Evocation Wizards, so there's that. Empowered Evocation + Magic Missile.

I basically agree in that as far as blasting spellcasters go, Evocation wizards definitely trump basically anything a Sorcerer can do.

But, I thought Empowered Evocation + Magic Missile was clarified to only apply the INT bonus once rather than once per missile? Or am I mistaken?

[jas61292]

I basically agree in that as far as blasting spellcasters go, Evocation wizards definitely trump basically anything a Sorcerer can do.

But, I thought Empowered Evocation + Magic Missile was clarified to only apply the INT bonus once rather than once per missile? Or am I mistaken?

It only applies to one damage roll of a spell. However, officially, since Magic Missiles all hit at the same time (and you have to therefore decide targets all before hand, not sequentially) it has a single damage roll. In other words it is officially rolled as (1d4+1+Int)x3, not 1d4+1+Int / 1d4+1 / 1d4+1.

That said, that is really dumb, and no one I know will actually play it that way.

[Ethambutol]

It only applies to one damage roll of a spell. However, officially, since Magic Missiles all hit at the same time (and you have to therefore decide targets all before hand, not sequentially) it has a single damage roll. In other words it is officially rolled as (1d4+1+Int)x3, not 1d4+1+Int / 1d4+1 / 1d4+1.

That said, that is really dumb, and no one I know will actually play it that way.

Ah! You don't happen to have a source as to how Magic missile's damage rolls play out on hand do you?

[jas61292]

Ah! You don't happen to have a source as to how Magic missile's damage rolls play out on hand do you?

I believe there was a tweet about it at one point, but I don't know when exactly, and don't have a link.

[bid]

It only applies to one damage roll of a spell. However, officially, since Magic Missiles all hit at the same time (and you have to therefore decide targets all before hand, not sequentially) it has a single damage roll. In other words it is officially rolled as (1d4+1+Int)x3, not 1d4+1+Int / 1d4+1 / 1d4+1.
Not exactly. It's roll once to all targets

"Empowered Evocation (p. 117). The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls."
AND
SRD p 161: "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target."
AND
SRD p96: "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."

IOW, the damage modifier is added once to each target, as part of the first shared 1d4+1.

For instance, upcasting with a 3rd slot will create 5 darts. Split on 2 targets, A receive 2 darts and B receives 3 darts. Rolling 2d4+1+4 = 1+3+1+4 = 9 damage each, rolling 1d4+1 = 2+1 = 3 more damage on B. Result is 9 on A and 12 on B.

Split on 3 targets would be 2 2 1, the first damage roll is 1d4+1+4 = 3+1+4 = 8 damage each, the second damage roll is 1d4+1 = 2+1 = 3. So A and B get 11 damage while C gets 8.

[RulesJD]

Not exactly. It's roll once to all targets

"Empowered Evocation (p. 117). The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls."
AND
SRD p 161: "A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target."
AND
SRD p96: "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."

IOW, the damage modifier is added once to each target, as part of the first shared 1d4+1.

For instance, upcasting with a 3rd slot will create 5 darts. Split on 2 targets, A receive 2 darts and B receives 3 darts. Rolling 2d4+1+4 = 1+3+1+4 = 9 damage each, rolling 1d4+1 = 2+1 = 3 more damage on B. Result is 9 on A and 12 on B.

Split on 3 targets would be 2 2 1, the first damage roll is 1d4+1+4 = 3+1+4 = 8 damage each, the second damage roll is 1d4+1 = 2+1 = 3. So A and B get 11 damage while C gets 8.


Unfortunately, and for reasons beyond understanding, that is wrong. It works (by RAW and RAI at least) as described above. Order of operations for Magic Missile is as follows:

1. Designated your targets and declare ahead of time how many missiles each target is getting.

2. Roll 1d4+1(and +Int if level 10+ Evocation Wizard).

3. Apply that damage roll to each target multiplied by the number of missiles you designated for each target.


So if you cast a level 1 Magic Missile as a level 1 Wizard at 1 target, it will do 1d4+1 damage, 3 times. Not 3d4+3. That's the critical element because it means Empowered Evocation applies to every bolt.

Which is monstrously stupid and I think everyone can agree that the +Int mod should just be added to every time you roll evocation damage. It's a freaking level 10 ability that Warlocks get at level 2. Otherwise Evocation Wizards are only sliiiightly more damaging on Evocation spells than any other Wizard (For example, any Evocation DoT spell like Wall of Fire only gets it on the initial damage roll, which is stupid).

[bid]

Unfortunately, and for reasons beyond understanding, that is wrong. It works (by RAW and RAI at least) as described above.
You seem to say that you were forced to pick the crazy interpretation. Do you remember the official source for that?

[Syll]

You seem to say that you were forced to pick the crazy interpretation. Do you remember the official source for that?

@xxxxx Empowered Evocation does benefit magic missile's damage roll.

@JeremyECrawford +x per bolt,even on same target?

@xxxxx Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557820938402947072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

well, from this at least, it seems the 'official' ruling is +Int mod per bolt

[Toadkiller]

Don't overthink it. Playing a wizard in that campaign now and most of the way through. Firebolt and Chill Touch have done fine at getting past resistances at the cantrip level. If one doesn't work the other likely will. From there just pick what seems fun. Cantrips aren't going to save the day very often in any case.

At higher level it isn't that hard to prepare a list that "fits" the foes you're likely to encounter that day. Probably the biggest arguement for wizard vs sorcerer in this campaign is just that. I would agree with above that I have gotten more bang for my buck out of control spells. But the big AOE bursts are memorable and fun when they work. It's easy enough to always have some blasts available in the tool kit.

Another thing to consider is a one level Cleric dip to start. You get a significant boost to your armor class, which has saved my butt several times. It also lets you make your utility cantrips be wisdom based, which doesn't matter, saving your combat ones for the wizard list. I picked knowledge domain for the expertise; but didn't have to play this character at low level so don't know how that goes. Probably fine.

It is moderately annoying to be a level behind in spells I can prepare but the extra AC, cantrips and some level one cleric spells known has been worth it. My healing word is weak, but often 1 hp is plenty. They get out of death saves and can at least run away to drink a potion.

[Specter]

Frostbite. That's the only cantrip you want to be using with the evoker's features. 2-4D6 that will always give at least half damage along with adding INT to damage and giving disadvantage to one attack. That's almost a level 2 spell!

Unless you are surrounded of course, in which case Sword Burst or Thunderclap.

EDIT: Average damage calculations assuming 18INT: 11 at 5th level, 14.5 at 11th level, 18 at 17th level. Not bad for at-will.

[Dalebert]

Lightning lure is nice and is a save, but you may not want the enemy near you.

FWIW, pulling them is optional. Without the book at my fingertips, I'm pretty sure the wording is "pull them up to 10 feet". So that includes pulling them zero feet. That's the wording of Thorn Whip and I think it's also the wording for Lightning Lure.

[Foxhound438]

I basically agree in that as far as blasting spellcasters go, Evocation wizards definitely trump basically anything a Sorcerer can do.

But, I thought Empowered Evocation + Magic Missile was clarified to only apply the INT bonus once rather than once per missile? Or am I mistaken?

phb eratta clarifies that you are correct.


It only applies to one damage roll of a spell. However, officially, since Magic Missiles all hit at the same time (and you have to therefore decide targets all before hand, not sequentially) it has a single damage roll. In other words it is officially rolled as (1d4+1+Int)x3, not 1d4+1+Int / 1d4+1 / 1d4+1.

That said, that is really dumb, and no one I know will actually play it that way.

even applied all in one damage roll it's still (1d4+1)*3 + int.

[Specter]

FWIW, pulling them is optional. Without the book at my fingertips, I'm pretty sure the wording is "pull them up to 10 feet". So that includes pulling them zero feet. That's the wording of Thorn Whip and I think it's also the wording for Lightning Lure.

If the enemy is not within 5 feet of you by the end of spell, it takes no damage.

[Dalebert]

If the enemy is not within 5 feet of you by the end of spell, it takes no damage.

Oh, I didn't remember it right then.

[bid]

well, from this at least, it seems the 'official' ruling is +Int mod per bolt
Ok, that's perfect. Thanks.

[bid]

even applied all in one damage roll it's still (1d4+1)*3 + int.
No, all 3 darts do the same 1d4+1 damage. You roll a single die, then add Int mod to that die.

The twitter link above says: "Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once."

[Saiga]

Honestly I don't think I'll be picking Magic Missile especially if it's going to overshadow my Elemental blasting options.

I do still plan on taking non-blasty options and stuff with battlefield control (Max's Earthen Grasp, wind-refluffed Hold Person, etc) and while I considered Sorceror, they I feel like I wouldn't get enough spells to make the concept work.

Unless PotA is extremely hard, I'm not too worried as no-one in the group is going to be optimized or anything.

[Toadkiller]

Well, I think that will depend. But our game has been challenging but not super hard. We tend to play well together but aren't an optimized party by any means. It helps to have an idea of how the math works so you know when to leave rather than fighting. In fact, the most important thing is probably solid scouting (we have a chain warlock familiar) so you know when to back off. It is very easy to get in over your head due to the open nature of the campaign. A smart DM will find ways to make it clear when you should be discreet. We still managed to get spanked a couple of times. The DM just more or less let us escape with bloody noses rather than hot pursuit. Hopefully that's typical or it's a short game.

[djreynolds]

FWIW, pulling them is optional. Without the book at my fingertips, I'm pretty sure the wording is "pull them up to 10 feet". So that includes pulling them zero feet. That's the wording of Thorn Whip and I think it's also the wording for Lightning Lure.

Well that is good to know then.

[Addaran]

Well, I think that will depend. But our game has been challenging but not super hard. We tend to play well together but aren't an optimized party by any means. It helps to have an idea of how the math works so you know when to leave rather than fighting. In fact, the most important thing is probably solid scouting (we have a chain warlock familiar) so you know when to back off. It is very easy to get in over your head due to the open nature of the campaign. A smart DM will find ways to make it clear when you should be discreet. We still managed to get spanked a couple of times. The DM just more or less let us escape with bloody noses rather than hot pursuit. Hopefully that's typical or it's a short game.

Yeah, it's very easy to aggro more then one encounters. They often give indication how the next group(s) of people will hear if there's a fight in the previous room. Depending on the enemies, some will investigate, others won't. Some of the maps are very "open", so it's possible to have to fight pretty much the whole dungeon in one go, if you're not careful.

[RulesJD]

Honestly I don't think I'll be picking Magic Missile especially if it's going to overshadow my Elemental blasting options.

I do still plan on taking non-blasty options and stuff with battlefield control (Max's Earthen Grasp, wind-refluffed Hold Person, etc) and while I considered Sorceror, they I feel like I wouldn't get enough spells to make the concept work.

Unless PotA is extremely hard, I'm not too worried as no-one in the group is going to be optimized or anything.

It doesn't overshadow it until level 10, so in the intervening levels, you'll be relying on your elemental blasting options.

Not to mention MM really only shines against single targets, where generally the blasting spells lack (unless you choose to ignore the Empowered Evocation ruling and let spells like Scorching Ray work how they should). Having a decent damage type on tap that almost nothing can resist (Force) can be a butt saver in PotA.

[Citan]

Ok first off I personally find that blasting wizard is crappynot good enough to my taste.
Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:

@OP
There is a fairly good choice of cantrips to have, the only sad thing being you can't "retrain" for others when you level up, so you have to choose well.
And if possible keep at least one learned cantrip for utility such as Mage Hand or Minor Illusion.

Beyond that... Putting weapon cantrips aside, I'm very partial to having Shocking Grasp for melee, with a useful rider...
For ranged attack, my suggested cantrip is usually Ray of Frost: while it deals a bit less damage than Firebolt, and half the range, the loss of speed rider is always useful in itself and can be combined with other abilities to totally deprive an enemy of movement. ;) It's a matter of taste though, being able to blast from a safe 120 feet away has its perks too.

Other good choices...
- Chill Touch is often underrated: sure, it deals a damage type that is one of the most often resisted. But it's pretty handy against undead, and against any creature that has healing capabilities of any kind. ;)
- Frostbite: Constitution saving throw, a bid sad, but you can help a friend from range thanks to the rider.

Lesser choices...
- Create Bonfire: could be good if you could swap cantrips later. Because in early levels, it's a great use for your concentration. But you will quickly get too many concentration spells later for it to keep its use, unless you plan some special combo such as using it with Lightning Lure (you can't make more niche than that)...
- Lightning Lure: nice, except it draws enemies to you. Can be used in creative ways though, as long as you accept the risk.
- Thunderclap: if you are not surrounded (or quite close), this is strictly inferior to any other. And if you are surrounded and this is the best action you can make, you are probably in very big trouble.
Honestly, I could find a niche use of this on an Eldricht Knight, but on a Wizard? Pass is my advise.

Honestly I don't think I'll be picking Magic Missile especially if it's going to overshadow my Elemental blasting options.

I do still plan on taking non-blasty options and stuff with battlefield control (Max's Earthen Grasp, wind-refluffed Hold Person, etc) and while I considered Sorceror, they I feel like I wouldn't get enough spells to make the concept work.

Unless PotA is extremely hard, I'm not too worried as no-one in the group is going to be optimized or anything.
You know, Magic Missile is, with Shield, your probable best use of a slot for a good number of levels. Being an autohit with few counters (Shield, Counterspell, other?) is really the best thing you could want in some situations. ;)

You can always swap it later if you want, or just unprepare it.
In the rare chance you would manage to reach Wizard 18, for an Evoker, it's arguably better than any cantrip. You deal less damage, but it's 100% reliable, sustained damage. ;)




Which is monstrously stupid and I think everyone can agree that the +Int mod should just be added to every time you roll evocation damage. It's a freaking level 10 ability that Warlocks get at level 2. Otherwise Evocation Wizards are only sliiiightly more damaging on Evocation spells than any other Wizard (For example, any Evocation DoT spell like Wall of Fire only gets it on the initial damage roll, which is stupid).
Let's rejoice! There is at least one thing we totally agree on! \o/:smallbiggrin:
Seriously, I don't understand what niche case then could ever find that would throw balance away... The "worst" use-case I could see would be a Scorching Ray cast as 9th, which would deal 10(2d6+5) which is really, really far from being ground-breaking, and very far from the best use of a 9th slot anyways.

Ah well... Good thing the DM is master in his home. This is one of the few errata/official rulings I override without any regret. ;)

[bid]

Constitution saving throw, a bid sad, but
Yes, saving throws make me sad.

[Saiga]

Thanks for the advice, one thing I wanted to check - is it possible to retrain spells as a Wizard? I thought they were one class that could not do so, but Citan implied I could retrain Magic Missile.

[bid]

Thanks for the advice, one thing I wanted to check - is it possible to retrain spells as a Wizard? I thought they were one class that could not do so, but Citan implied I could retrain Magic Missile.
No, you can never lose a spell. You can leave it in your spellbook forever though.

[MeeposFire]

Being a wizard you could just not prepare the spell and prepare something else in its place. That amounts to the same thing with the added benefit that you can put it back when you want it again.