Help with a Master of 9 build

[danielxcutter]

Hi.

So I have plans for a OotS-style webcomic called XPeditious Retreat. I've posted several threads to get help with making characters in the past, and I think I need some more.

The story's still in the works, but one thing I've decided is a legendary adventuring party, about ECL 24. They've mostly retired from the frontlines(unless something big happens, like a tarrasque rampage), but they still influence the comic world significantly. Think "Order of the Scribble", except it didn't break up, the members are still fast friends, and they don't have to keep a god-slaying abomination sealed, so they're pretty well known due to the adventures they had(around 20 years or so sounds good for now).

One of them is going to be a martial adept with the Master of Nine prestige class from Tome of Battle, with all nine of the 9th-level maneuvers. The problem is that I'm not sure how to build this guy.

Here's the stuff I've planned so far.

*Going to be the leader/main-protagonist-if-I-make-a-prequel-about-the-adventuring-party-I've-mentioned. Not the most powerful, probably, but leading and power are different things. Just look at Roy and Vaarsuvius from OotS.

*Has all nine of the 9th-level maneuvers from each school, and gets decent milage out of all nine of the schools in general.

*If one school has to have more focus than others, I would prefer Stone Dragon, as it is the only school that can be taken by all three martial adepts(this is flavor-related, not mechanics). However, White Raven or Iron Heart are acceptable.

*Has balanced mental stats(positive modifiers at least), and doesn't have a dump stat in general because all three martial adepts benefit from a different mental stat. There is a belt that gives bonuses to all stats(forgot the name though), so that will certainly be one of the magical items he has.

*Levels in all three of the martial adept classes, and all 5 levels of Mo9. Pretty sure that's the easiest way to get all 9ths anyway.

*Not about him, but important: Party will incude a Ranger/Egoist/Slayer "King of Smack" build gish, an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge, and a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Not sure about the others, but perhaps a Cleric or Favored Soul as one of them.

And here's the stuff I need help with.

*Combat role: while non-tanking primary melee is fairly obvious, I'm not sure if you can make the build so the maneuvers flow well into a single combat style. I'm perfectly okay with "hit enemies in various ways until they die", but I would like some specifics about how.

*Combat style: can this character be perfectly fine using just unarmed strikes, or will he need a weapon? I'm going to rule that non-monks can apply TWF to unarmed strikes(each hand is treated as a light weapon) anyways, but if good old fisticuffs won't cut it, a quarterstaff might be fine as well; it's a double weapon, so it can be used for either TWFing or two-handing it for Power Attack bonuses. And to be honest, who says he can't have multiple weapons for different situations?

*Maneuvers: which should I pick? Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics are a must, but otherwise I'm puzzled. I really want him to have 2~3 aside of the 9ths from each school, though. Yes, even Stone Dragon and Desert Wind.




Aaaaand that's all I have for now.

[Particle_Man]

So about level 24? Off the top of my head the best best for maximum # of maneuvers, barring multiple prestige classes, would be swordsage (unarmed alternate listed under the class description sounds good for you) 17/crusader 1/warblade 1/Mo9 5.

Since the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver is the only 9th level maneuver with no prerequisites, and any one can get it, you are free to focus on the other 5 for swordsage, devoted spirit/white raven prerequs for crusader, and iron heart prerequs for warblade before going into Mo9 - then you should be able to pick the 9th level maneuvers for those that swordsage hasn't covered.

I would get at least one of the shadow teleport maneuvers (maybe the move action one), and other non-strike ones (you will have 9 strikes already with your 9th level maneuvers and that is probably plenty).

Remember that stances count as prerequisites for maneuvers.

[danielxcutter]

So about level 24? Off the top of my head the best best for maximum # of maneuvers, barring multiple prestige classes, would be swordsage (unarmed alternate listed under the class description sounds good for you) 17/crusader 1/warblade 1/Mo9 5.

Since the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver is the only 9th level maneuver with no prerequisites, and any one can get it, you are free to focus on the other 5 for swordsage, devoted spirit/white raven prerequs for crusader, and iron heart prerequs for warblade before going into Mo9 - then you should be able to pick the 9th level maneuvers for those that swordsage hasn't covered.

I would get at least one of the shadow teleport maneuvers (maybe the move action one), and other non-strike ones (you will have 9 strikes already with your 9th level maneuvers and that is probably plenty).

Remember that stances count as prerequisites for maneuvers.

Not 100% sure about using Unarmed Swordsage, as it's not really an "official" ACF. Otherwise yeah, good advice. Martial Study's probably going to use up a few mid-level feats to fill in some of the gaps, especially for Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit, but the good thing about non-strikes is that a large amount of them are still usable at higher levels - especially IHS and WRT. Going to be a pain in the neck dueto the sheer number of maneuvers, but fortunately handbooks are a thing.

[ben-zayb]

Have you tried using Bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana? It's kinda crazy.

At ECL 5, a Human with Major Bloodline (ECL3) / Factotum 1 / Swordsage 1 gets you Swordsage (SS) IL6.

At ECL 10, the addition of Chameleon 2 / Monk 1 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Master of Nine 1 / gets you SS IL19, enough for 9th level SS maneuvers. Chameleon's access to Alter Self and a floating feat gives you flexibility with your maneuvers or Font of Inspiration.

The rest of the 14 ECLs is up to you, but I suggest Warblade and Crusader dips and more Master of Nine levels.

[danielxcutter]

Have you tried using Bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana? It's kinda crazy.

At ECL 5, a Human with Major Bloodline (ECL3) / Factotum 1 / Swordsage 1 gets you Swordsage (SS) IL6.

At ECL 10, the addition of Chameleon 2 / Monk 1 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Master of Nine 1 / gets you SS IL19, enough for 9th level SS maneuvers. Chameleon's access to Alter Self and a floating feat gives you flexibility with your maneuvers or Font of Inspiration.

The rest of the 14 ECLs is up to you, but I suggest Warblade and Crusader dips and more Master of Nine levels.

Eh... I don't think that's what I'm looking for, sorry, but I suppose looking into bloodlines and Chameleon for other characters won't hurt.

[Troacctid]

Are you going to give the character one of the actual Nine Swords? That's kind of a cool thing that you can do with legendary characters.

[danielxcutter]

Are you going to give the character one of the actual Nine Swords? That's kind of a cool thing that you can do with legendary characters.

Probably not, as the setting will be homebrewed... But giving him some sort of legendary weapon is a good idea, and one I like.

[Pyromancer999]

Probably not, as the setting will be homebrewed... But giving him some sort of legendary weapon is a good idea, and one I like.

Actually, if you were to take Legacy Champion, you could use the levels to advance an initator class to advance your initiator level(when you can, as it's not for all levels of that), while still benefitting from the 1/2 non-initiator class levels bonus. Some combination of Initiating classes 10/Legacy Champion 5/Master of the Nine 5 should get you IL of 17 at 16th level, during your 1st level of Master of the Nine. Use all your maneuvers from those levels for the 9th level maneuvers, and take Martial Study for a 9th level maneuver at 18th, and you get all 9 9th level maneuvers at 20th. Granted, that is, if you can get the required numbers of each discipline before you enter Master of the Nine.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, if you were to take Legacy Champion, you could use the levels to advance an initator class to advance your initiator level(when you can, as it's not for all levels of that), while still benefitting from the 1/2 non-initiator class levels bonus. Some combination of Initiating classes 10/Legacy Champion 5/Master of the Nine 5 should get you IL of 17 at 16th level, during your 1st level of Master of the Nine. Use all your maneuvers from those levels for the 9th level maneuvers, and take Martial Study for a 9th level maneuver at 18th, and you get all 9 9th level maneuvers at 20th. Granted, that is, if you can get the required numbers of each discipline before you enter Master of the Nine.

Oh, like Darrin's Archon of Nine build? Maybe, but it's not a finished build yet, so no promises.

[Echch]

Hmm... I'm not too good when it comes to ToB, but as far as I can remember, Master of Nine requires a lot of feats.
I think if you go Cleric 1 (Darkness and Time Domain)/Cobra Strike Monk 1/Swordsage 8/Legacy Champion 5/Master of Nine 5, you should be able to retain full initiating by the end of it and will only have to spent a single "real" feat as tax, which is Adaptive Style, a good feat for any Swordsage anyway.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I'm not too good when it comes to ToB, but as far as I can remember, Master of Nine requires a lot of feats.
I think if you go Cleric 1 (Darkness and Time Domain)/Cobra Strike Monk 1/Swordsage 8/Legacy Champion 5/Master of Nine 5, you should be able to retain full initiating by the end of it and will only have to spent a single "real" feat as tax, which is Adaptive Style, a good feat for any Swordsage anyway.

A little meh, since Iron Heart Devoted Spirit, and White Raven aren't on the Swordsage list. Sorry.

[Echch]

A little meh, since Iron Heart Devoted Spirit, and White Raven aren't on the Swordsage list. Sorry.

Well, you could always just turn the Swordsage 8 into Swordsage 4 (you'll want Insightful Strike), Warblade 2 (which allows for Int to Reflex IIRC) and Crusader 2 (which grants Cha to Will Saves), since you did mention that you wanted him to have levels in all of the classes. That does make you MAD... But that's what you wanted to be anyway.

EDIT: Did you mean the Belt of Magnificence?

[Darrin]

Sounds like a job for my Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers) build. There's even a maneuver progression if you need one. Finish off Legacy Champion or add four more levels of Swordsage and you should be good to go.

[Eldariel]

Here (http://web.archive.org/web/20071216035126/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344) is the old Char Ops build on the matter in 20 levels: it's a simple combination of Swordsage, Shadow Sun Ninja, Master of the Nine with a level of Crusader. Of course, with 4 more ECL it's trivial to add Warblade. I'd also recommend a single level of Barbarian for the Pounce (plus Whirling Frenzy), which combines beautifully with the 4th level Diamond Mind "Bounding Assault" maneuver enabling full attack after double move - tremendous for mobility. Also great with the Devoted Spirit and White Raven Charges (including War Master's Charge).

Far as build goes, 24 levels makes for the interesting option of including all 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade without losing out on the 9s. This would give the character some versatility and ranged prowess with the same maneuvers. Hell, since you'd even learn Strike of Perfect Clarity, one would have the option of using it at range.


On high level use, you get the most mileage out of Diamond Mind and White Raven. White Raven ally-affecting maneuvers are always worth your while, and the extra action stuff on Diamond Mind is also sweet. The whole class and this whole build feeds into a counterattacker sort of a setup. You'll want a lot of counters available; Manticore Parry/Fool's Strike, One With Shadow, Wall of Blades are the big ones. Then Iron Heart Focus/Lightning Recovery (rerolls are always good) and some of the counter-mobility level 5 stuff (Leaping Flame, Mirrored Pursuit, Stalking Shadow), and perhaps Counter Charge and some of the save-defining maneuvers. If the character uses a shield, additionally the Devoted Spirit of Shield Block and Shield Bash are musts. Of course, the character should definitely have Adaptive Style to refresh all the maneuvers in one turn and especially to prepare for any given encounter.

You can do great things with Master of the Nine Counter Stance + Dual Stance. With this whole Counter-setup, Stance of Alacrity is obviously an absolute must and also the stance she should maintain by default. Of course, for Dual Stance you'll need the others. Immortal Fortitude seems like a gimme - with the ability to reinitiate it each turn, the character won't die without failing a Fort-save (and given the scope of the Fort-save buffing maneuvers and the ability to weave in and out of Stance of Alacrity, it'll take a lot). I'd say Aura of Perfect Order is also definitely worth having. Then there's the Shifting Defense which is absolutely infuriating for melee adversaries, and Flame's Blessing which amounts to fire immunity, so rather convenient. Roots of the Mountain can be convenient though I'd expect her to be well Freedom of Movemented by level 24.

Far as general stuff goes, well, obviously some means of flight. Balance on the Sky works to a degree, but it's supernatural and rather limited. Probably proper flight is more useful: it's probably best to just have the Feathered Wings Graft [Fiend Folio]. Thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind, one can never fail the save, though the Diplomacy downsides can suck.

In addition to counters, movement-maneuvers and ally boosting maneuvers should be the focus; with all the 9th level maneuvers, most of the offense is already taken care of (Pounce + Bounding Assault + Leading the Charge can add a bit to it). High base movement would be convenient. Most of the basic movement abilities not to mention things like Tornado Throw really benefit of it. Note that Master of the Nine's Mastery of the Nine goes best with multiattack maneuvers (Time Stands Still for instance).

Few other stand-out maneuvers:
Swooping Dragon Strike - Jump-check based Stun (so easy to make ridiculously high DC)
Disrupting Blow - It's a Will-save and failure simply removes the option of taking actions without any status name so there is no immunity for this
Greater Divine Surge - The damage leaves something to be desired but still, at the cost of 20 Con you can get +20 to hit and do a decent number; convenient for when you need to ramp up your To Hit for any given opponent that's out of your range otherwise.


Oh yeah, and since she's 24, the two Epic feats should be used to take Infinite Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) and Exceptional Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection). That alone makes a martial about 100 times harder to hit. I also recommend fitting in Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] + some source of Hide in Plain Sight and some basic stealth shell to add to the versatility (complements One with Shadow, teleport and mobility skills nicely).

Could also add the Troll-Blooded [DR319] + Pugilist [DR310] combo (plus fire and acid immunity from e.g. Flame's Blessing and Ritual of the Elemental Earth [Savage Species]) if Dragon Magazine is on the table - the combination amounts to nigh' damage immunity though (short of Searing Spell fire effects or something that ignores Regeneration like Jovocs or Trollbane) so weigh in if it is indeed desirable. She'll of course be rather durable already thanks to Immortal Fortitude + Counter Stance + Stance of Alacrity + various counters.

[danielxcutter]

First of all, I'd like to thank you for turning in an essay rather than the expected couple of paragraphs. :smallbiggrin:
Here (http://web.archive.org/web/20071216035126/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344) is the old Char Ops build on the matter in 20 levels: it's a simple combination of Swordsage, Shadow Sun Ninja, Master of the Nine with a level of Crusader.

Sadly, Customer Services nixed that build. Of course, no one listens to them anyway, but I don't think it's the way I want this guy to do this. I'm probably going with the Archon of Nine build Darrin's made, albeit with a couple of adjustments for flavor.

The rest of the advice, however, is still worth seriously considering, so let's get to that, shall we?


Of course, with 4 more ECL it's trivial to add Warblade. I'd also recommend a single level of Barbarian for the Pounce (plus Whirling Frenzy), which combines beautifully with the 4th level Diamond Mind "Bounding Assault" maneuver enabling full attack after double move - tremendous for mobility. Also great with the Devoted Spirit and White Raven Charges (including War Master's Charge).

A good piece of advice for almost any martial build, but I'm afraid that I must veto this as well; the party he'll lead will likely have a Barbarian, and I wish to avoid overlapping.


Far as build goes, 24 levels makes for the interesting option of including all 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade without losing out on the 9s. This would give the character some versatility and ranged prowess with the same maneuvers. Hell, since you'd even learn Strike of Perfect Clarity, one would have the option of using it at range.

Funny, I was considering this too. Too bad it's limited to Iron Heart, though. Maybe, but no promises for this.


On high level use, you get the most mileage out of Diamond Mind and White Raven. White Raven ally-affecting maneuvers are always worth your while, and the extra action stuff on Diamond Mind is also sweet. The whole class and this whole build feeds into a counterattacker sort of a setup. You'll want a lot of counters available; Manticore Parry/Fool's Strike, One With Shadow, Wall of Blades are the big ones. Then Iron Heart Focus/Lightning Recovery (rerolls are always good) and some of the counter-mobility level 5 stuff (Leaping Flame, Mirrored Pursuit, Stalking Shadow), and perhaps Counter Charge and some of the save-defining maneuvers. If the character uses a shield, additionally the Devoted Spirit of Shield Block and Shield Bash are musts. Of course, the character should definitely have Adaptive Style to refresh all the maneuvers in one turn and especially to prepare for any given encounter.

Yeah, all 9th-level strikes are more than plenty for damage, plus Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics are awesome. And I did say that this guy would be the party leader.


You can do great things with Master of the Nine Counter Stance + Dual Stance. With this whole Counter-setup, Stance of Alacrity is obviously an absolute must and also the stance she should maintain by default. Of course, for Dual Stance you'll need the others. Immortal Fortitude seems like a gimme - with the ability to reinitiate it each turn, the character won't die without failing a Fort-save (and given the scope of the Fort-save buffing maneuvers and the ability to weave in and out of Stance of Alacrity, it'll take a lot). I'd say Aura of Perfect Order is also definitely worth having. Then there's the Shifting Defense which is absolutely infuriating for melee adversaries, and Flame's Blessing which amounts to fire immunity, so rather convenient.

Well, I'm not sure if there's room for most of the stances besides SoA, but if there is... And there's always the feats gained at ECL 21 and 24.


Roots of the Mountain can be convenient though I'd expect her to be well Freedom of Movemented by level 24.

Not just well FoM'd, well buffed in general: the party will include an Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge(double 9ths!), and an Elan Ranger/Egoist/Slayer psionic gish(with EK: Claws of the Beast, and Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike for a King of Smack build), and a DFI Bard at the least.

Also, the character's a guy, not a girl. Thought you might want to know that. :smallamused:


Far as general stuff goes, well, obviously some means of flight. Balance on the Sky works to a degree, but it's supernatural and rather limited. Probably proper flight is more useful: it's probably best to just have the Feathered Wings Graft [Fiend Folio]. Thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind, one can never fail the save, though the Diplomacy downsides can suck.

Eh, probably not a huge problem due to the casters in the party.


In addition to counters, movement-maneuvers and ally boosting maneuvers should be the focus; with all the 9th level maneuvers, most of the offense is already taken care of (Pounce + Bounding Assault + Leading the Charge can add a bit to it). High base movement would be convenient. Most of the basic movement abilities not to mention things like Tornado Throw really benefit of it.

Not much room in the build for that, but items are a thing, so...


Note that Master of the Nine's Mastery of the Nine goes best with multiattack maneuvers (Time Stands Still for instance).

Noted.


Few other stand-out maneuvers:
Swooping Dragon Strike - Jump-check based Stun (so easy to make ridiculously high DC)
Disrupting Blow - It's a Will-save and failure simply removes the option of taking actions without any status name so there is no immunity for this
Greater Divine Surge - The damage leaves something to be desired but still, at the cost of 20 Con you can get +20 to hit and do a decent number; convenient for when you need to ramp up your To Hit for any given opponent that's out of your range otherwise.

Yet again, if there's room. Which unlike movement speed, could certainly be.


Oh yeah, and since she's 24, the two Epic feats should be used to take Infinite Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) and Exceptional Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection). That alone makes a martial about 100 times harder to hit. I also recommend fitting in Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] + some source of Hide in Plain Sight and some basic stealth shell to add to the versatility (complements One with Shadow, teleport and mobility skills nicely).

The build isn't exactly abundant with feats, but you do have a point. No promises, though.


Could also add the Troll-Blooded [DR319] + Pugilist [DR310] combo (plus fire and acid immunity from e.g. Flame's Blessing and Ritual of the Elemental Earth [Savage Species]) if Dragon Magazine is on the table - the combination amounts to nigh' damage immunity though (short of Searing Spell fire effects or something that ignores Regeneration like Jovocs or Trollbane) so weigh in if it is indeed desirable. She'll of course be rather durable already thanks to Immortal Fortitude + Counter Stance + Stance of Alacrity + various counters.

Maybe not for this character, but it is a good idea. Noted.