Gestalt optimization possible?

[Dnd1975]

Ok so my small group decided to mix things up and create gestalt characters. Heres the kicker...

We drew classes from a bag to see our combination. Mine was Activist and spell theif. We are starting at lvl 1.

Our stats are 18 17 16 15 15 13. We can play any race as long as it is no more than a +1 lvl adjustment or if there is no lvl adjustment we can take a templet of up to +1.

We can take 2 flaws to get 2 extra feats.

With this info can i get some help please as the other players are heavy into optimization and i am unfamiliar with either class.

We can use any 3.0, 3.5, as well as ultimate feats books. The dm is open to any d20 book as long as the information can be read. Only thing is no homebrewed stuff. Thanks guys

[John Longarrow]

What is it you want your character to do? Not a general "Kick But" type question but specific actions you want your character to be skilled at.

Also, can you please specify what book the "Activist" class is from or if you mis-typed the class name.

[Dnd1975]

Sorry auto correct screwed it up its supposed to be Archivist. As i said ive played neither so im open to what it can do as well as how to optimize if possible

[daremetoidareyo]

Sorry auto correct screwed it up its supposed to be Archivist. As i said ive played neither so im open to what it can do as well as how to optimize if possible

You're gonna want southern magician and master spell thief.

Consider finding some ways to get into rage mage on either side by dipping whirling frenzy pounce barbarian, and that way, when you spell rage, you can steal high level spells at a ridiculously low levels (character level+spellthief level). If you don't cast the spell, just arcane strike it away.

[sonofzeal]

General rules for gestalt optimization:

- Pair an "active" class (something with standard-action abilities) and a "passive" class (something without). The idea is for the passive class to provide defences, alternative, or augmentation to what your active class does. Wizard//Monk gets you a far more durable spellcaster, or Ranger//Scout lets you be a faster Ranger with Skirmish on the attacks you were making anyway.

- Consider differences in HD, BAB, saves, etc. Similar classes can synergize, but you want the one to fill gaps from the other.

- Have a goal in mind. Don't think in terms of archetypes. What is your character actually going to do, and how do the classes support that?



For your character... Archivist is "active" because of the spells, and Spellthief does give a lot of passive abilities, but you want to be getting Sneak Attacks for Spellthief and Archivist doesn't support that well. They're also both d6, 3/4 BAB classes with fair skillpoints and good Will saves, so Spellthief doesn't do much for Archivist as far as raw stat-lines are concerned. And I'm not quite sure what the gameplan is in that combo, although a good gameplan would make it all worthwhile. They're both interesting classes with a lot of clever utility for the creative player to exploit, and they're certainly flavourful together, but I'm not sure what purpose wouldn't be better-covered by Archivist//Factotum (better HD, complementary Ref save, same skillpoints with better skill list, more defensive options, still providing magic on both sides). Spellthief gets better magic than Factotum, but most of your magic's coming from Archivist anyway. I'm a fan of Spellthieves in general, especially in parties where you're likely to have a lot of friendly magic to borrow and repurpose, but the synergy with Archivist isn't obvious to me.

[daremetoidareyo]

For your character... Archivist is "active" because of the spells, and Spellthief does give a lot of passive abilities, but you want to be getting Sneak Attacks for Spellthief and Archivist doesn't support that well. They're also both d6, 3/4 BAB classes with fair skillpoints and good Will saves, so Spellthief doesn't do much for Archivist as far as raw stat-lines are concerned. And I'm not quite sure what the gameplan is in that combo, although a good gameplan would make it all worthwhile. They're both interesting classes with a lot of clever utility for the creative player to exploit, and they're certainly flavourful together, but I'm not sure what purpose wouldn't be better-covered by Archivist//Factotum (better HD, complentary Ref save, same skillpoints with better skill list, more defensive options, still providing magic on both sides).

Archivist can get ranger, paladin, shugenja, runescarred berzerker, justice of the weald and woe, and blackguard spells. That is a lot of versatility to help with your spellthievery.

[sonofzeal]

Archivist can get ranger, paladin, shugenja, runescarred berzerker, justice of the weald and woe, and blackguard spells. That is a lot of versatility to help with your spellthievery.

Archivist is a great class, sure. But they're starting at lvl 1, so they'll only have Cleric spells to start and may have to hunt down a Runescarred Berserker and convince them to craft a scroll for them to get those ones.

The primary power of Spellthief is to be about to creatively shift spellcasting from one source to another. "Borrow" your Warmage's fireball, time your actions right, and light 'em up twice as effectively. Or share in all your Warlock buddy's 24-hour buffs. Or use your Druid pal's Unicorn as an infinite healing battery.

The flexibility from Archivist doesn't meaningfully expand that, because you could already cast those spells since you're the Archivist. What are you going to do, borrow them from yourself? Spellthief combos excellently with an Archivist in the party (Archivist learns crazy self-only buffs but can't leverage it with feat/ability support, Spellthief borrows them and roflstomps the BBEG), but that synergy is diminished, not increased, by having it all on one character. I'd rather have a Crusader//Spellthief, or a Archivist//Factotum. Or, even better, both as two separate characters collaborating to chew bubblegum and take names.

[stanprollyright]

I don't think OP gets a choice in the matter.

OK. Put your 18 into Int, 16 and 17 into Dex and Con, 15 Cha, and it's up to you whether you want more Str or Wis. I'd suggest a Strongheart Halfling or Whispergnome, if not human. For your free +1 LA, the dark template (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dark.shtml) is great. So you have tons of skills and HiPS. Take Improved Initiative, Darkstalker, Craven, and Silent Spell, and then whatever caster feats you want. Get a ranged weapon and some ray spells for sneak attacks, summons for flanking, and buffs for stuffs (defense, mostly).

EDIT: Other good feats: Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion, Augment Summoning

[daremetoidareyo]

Take scribe scroll and steal spells from specific divine casters to turn into archivist spells, your best sneak attack buffs are coming out of justice of weald and woe and ranger spell lists. Get a ring of spell storing so you can hang on to the spells for long enough to scribe over. It's actually a pretty neat synergy. Steal lightning bolt from an adept and go hexer on the archivist side.

[Gnaeus]

Well, first, what else is in the party? There may be steady sources of spells there. Otherwise, spellthief gives....
Trap finding. Not useless, especially if there isnt anyone else who can do it. Not strictly necessary, but may be helpful.

2 extra skill points. Those will either be eaten by trapfinding if you go that route, or 2 extra knowledges, because archivists love knowledges.

Arcane spells. That means you can get a familiar. And an improved familiar. That you can share archivist spells with and steal abilities from. Borrowing your imp's at will invisibility (for example) is a decent trick that an archivist can't copy easily without jumping through hoops.

Sneak attack doesn't suck. Archivists aren't primary melee, but they can Clericzilla if they want to, and assuming that your party has primary meleers you may have flanking buddies.

The biggest "problem" you have is that spell thief gets swallowed by the awesome that is archivist, and that's a great problem to have. Assuming a fully random gestalt selection, there are probably people who got 2 classes that combined are worse than archivist.

My advice... get familiar ASAP and improved familiar at 7. Make sure someone gets craft wands. If you are allowed to take a prestige class, PRC out spellthief as soon as possible into something that has more synergy with archivist. At high levels, hierophant would be good but there should be some low lying fruit as well. Dragon Disciple, for example, should be easy to qualify for at 6th level, and that gives d12s and bonus spells you could add to your highest level archivist spells, which is better than anything spellthief gets.

[Dnd1975]

The party consists of myself the ftr/rouge and domain wizard/psion

[Gnaeus]

The party consists of myself the ftr/rouge and domain wizard/psion

Well, you are 1,000,000 miles above the fighter rogue. Domain wizard/psion probably got the best pick, but not amazing synergy there either.

Are you allowed to prestige class out on one side or are you stuck with what you drew?

Ok, what does that mean? Check with fighter//rogue and divide up jobs. I'd suggest that one of you face and one trap. Mechanically, I'd recommend that he handle traps, you do diplomacy, and you both sneak. But if you hate being the talker and he loves it you could reverse that.

The wizard should be awash in feats, getting bonus feats on both sides. Make sure he takes craft wands at 5. One of you should trade out scribe scrolls if you can. You should both have wand using familiars to buff the fighter.
For maximum damage, the fighter rogue needs sneaks. That means either:
1. You could fight and flank with him. You aren't an amazing melee, but you don't suck with the right buffs.
2. Someone can regularly buff the fighter. Improved invisibility on a wand from a familiar is the best way at 7th level.
Or 3. You or the wizard could focus on summoning. Either of you could be good at that.

[sonofzeal]

Ah, sorry. If the classes are locked.... mmm....

Do you have choice of race? I'd recommend either Strongheart Halfling (small size for sneaking, extra feat always powerful), or Neraph (extra Sneak Attack options). Basically I'd build the character as a Spellthief and treat that more as the Active class, with Archivist spells providing more utility and options - somewhat of an Arcane Trickster character. You'll want Scribe Scroll, but I'd focus most feats on the Rogue-ish side.

[John Longarrow]

The party consists of myself the ftr/rouge and domain wizard/psion

What roles do you have for your party and which ones will you be taking?

Roles would be things like "AoE support","Battle Field Control","Dedicated front line fighter" as well as "Deal with traps","Use knowledge skills", and "Party Face". Work out with the other players what roles and what shared abilities your party needs then post what you are looking to be good at.

Note: Roles are not tied to a single character. It is fine for the party to have two (or more) characters who's role is "Stealth for recon" and "Find/deal with traps".

[Gnaeus]

Ah, sorry. If the classes are locked.... mmm....

Do you have choice of race? I'd recommend either Strongheart Halfling (small size for sneaking, extra feat always powerful), or Neraph (extra Sneak Attack options). Basically I'd build the character as a Spellthief and treat that more as the Active class, with Archivist spells providing more utility and options - somewhat of an Arcane Trickster character. You'll want Scribe Scroll, but I'd focus most feats on the Rogue-ish side.

Why?

1. The party has a fighter//rogue, who will be struggling to maintain utility anyway next to 2 T1s. Why steal his thunder with spellthief, which is actually less roguish than rogue for most purposes.

2. If prestige classes are allowed (he hasn't said), most prc options will make him even less roguish while filling other holes.

3. While the rogue, properly buffed, can skill check as well as you can, archivist needs maxed knowledges to fuel dark knowledge, which no one else can do, and that doesn't leave enough skill points at low level for spot, listen, search, open locks, disable device, hide, move silently, and possibly social skills and UMD.

Let the rogue be a rogue. Cover the gaps he doesn't want. Archivist gives you more anyway.