What constitutes Bardic Music?

[Doctor Despair]

The epic feat from the Epic Level Handbook Music of the Gods reads:

You can use your bardic music to influence creatures immune to mind-affecting effects.

Prerequisite

Perform 30 ranks, CHA 25, bardic music class feature,

Benefit

Your bardic music can affect even those normally immune to mind-affecting effects. However, such creatures gain a +10 bonus on their Will saves to resist such effects.

Meanwhile, the Bardic feat Lyric Spell from Complete Adventurer reads:

You can channel the power of your bardic music into your magic, allowing you to expend uses of your bardic music ability to cast spells.

Prerequisite

Perform 9 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells, Bardic music,

Benefit

You can expend daily uses of your bardic music to cast any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously. You must still use an action to cast the spell (following the normal rules for casting time), but using the Lyric Spell feat counts as part of the spellcasting action. Casting a spell requires one use of your bardic music ability, plus one additional use per level of the spell. For example, casting a 3rd-level spell requires four daily uses of your bardic music ability.

Special

Any spell that you cast using the Lyric Spell feat gains your instrument as an additional arcane focus, if you use one. You cannot use Lyric Spell to cast a spell improved by the Silent Spell metamagic feat

My question to the forums is: does a use of Lyric Spell make the resultant spell be considered Bardic Music? Certainly song-playing is involved in the casting, but I feel like it is important to answer what any Bardic Music is first.

The class description reads:

Bardic Music: Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks.

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn't require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component (see Components, page 174), a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

Here, the general description states that Bardic Music:


Involves using songs or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him
Can be used via any manner of musical performance
Requires a minimum bard level
Requires a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify


Spells being cast via Lyric Spell:


Expend uses of Bardic Music
Involve songs or poetics, as implied by channeling your music into magic, using your instrument as a focus, and not being able to use a spell modified by the metamagic Silent Spell
Seem to involve some manner of musical performance
Require a minimum bard level of 1 for the class feature
Require a minimum of 9 ranks in perform


It seems like there is a case to be made that spells cast via Lyric Spell would be able to be modified via Music of the Gods, but I'm not certain whether it is closer to RAI or RAW here. In the Bardic class description, there are few direct mentions of the term "Bardic Music" in the actual classic Bardic Music abilities.

Countersong: A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components).

Fascinate: A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him... Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Inspire Courage: A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities... Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

Inspire Competence: A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task... Depending on the task the ally has at hand, the bard may use his bardic music to lift the ally's spirits, to help him or her focus mentally or in some other way... Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.

Suggestion: A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above)... Making a suggestion doesn't count against a bard's daily limit on bardic music performances... Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

Inspire Greatness: A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting him or her extra fighting capability... Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability.

Song of Freedom: A bard of 12th level or higher with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell (caster level equals the character's bard level).

Inspire Heroics: A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet... Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability.

Mass Suggestion: This ability functions like suggestion, above, except that a bard of 18th level or higher with 21 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make the suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated. Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability.

Here, none but one of the abilities call out specifically being Bardic Music. In fact, Suggestion specifically mentions that it does not consume uses of Bardic Music. That Lyric Spell specifically calls out consuming uses of Bardic Music would, as I see it, strengthen the case to be made that it is a feat modifying use of Bardic Music rather than an entirely separate apparatus that consumes Bardic Music with no significant connection beyond that. I'm interested in what the Playground thinks, however. Could Music of the Gods apply to spells cast via Lyric Spell?

[Zanos]

Bardic Music abilities are listed in italics under the main, bolded bardic music entry. This is the common syntax for abilities which are subsets of other abilities. Consuming uses from a shared pool via a feat does not make something that ability, either. DMM is not turning.

[Pleh]

Zanos is right. Just because you could sort of describe a lyric spell as being like bardic music does not make a lyric spell actually a type of bardic music. It's not RAW nor RAI, it's just misunderstanding the rules.

[Ashtagon]

Threads like this one are why I don't play with rules lawyers.

[Doctor Despair]

Bardic Music abilities are listed in italics under the main, bolded bardic music entry. This is the common syntax for abilities which are subsets of other abilities. Consuming uses from a shared pool via a feat does not make something that ability, either. DMM is not turning.

Fair enough; I hadn't thought of the parallel to DMM, but when you put it that way it does seem silly.


Threads like this one are why I don't play with rules lawyers.

Unnecessary and rude.

[EdRed]

Threads like this one are why I don't play with rules lawyers.

That's one amazingly useless reply to the thread at hand.

[Crake]

Threads like this one are why I don't play with rules lawyers.

That doesn't even make sense, there is nothing even remotely rules lawyer-y about this thread. It's a question, not something OP was presenting as fact.

I have to question your understanding of the term "rules lawyer".

[Jowgen]

As said, as written the rules don't allow for this combo to work.

Personally, from a RAI and balance perspective, I'd have no issue allowing it at a table myself though. It makes sense, adds flexibility to Bardic music beyond Inspire Courage optimization, and by the level you can pull off this combo, even access to unlimited bardic music uses wouldn't have that big of a balance impact imo.

[Ashtagon]

To me, a rules lawyer is someone who examines the fine details of word choice looking for odd corner cases that are clearly unexpected and surprising. It's nigh-impossible to get an official RAI interpretation (as the game developers have moved on to newer projects), but it seems reasonable to suppose that when working on Complete Adventurer, they weren't going to cross-reference against ELH, which is from a whole other older edition of the game, all the more so considering that ELH was written with the assumption of level 20+ gameplay, whilst by the time CA was written, the ELH was widely understood to be among the more broken books released by WotC.

And yes, I get that it was posed as a question. But a question in and of itself isn't necessarily innocent of motivation or purpose. The OP's question is a variant on push polling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll) (the main difference being that the question concerns game rules rather than the political opinions such push polls are more usually associated with). They didn't merely ask the question; he also suggested an answer and made a big case for the answer they "wanted". If it was a question made in good faith, they would have either presented no arguments for either point, or presented arguments for both points.

But to answer the OP's push poll, of course a spell isn't bardic music, especially not one enhanced with Lyric spell.


You can channel the power of your bardic music into your magic, allowing you to expend uses of your bardic music ability to cast spells.

You're using one thing (bardic music dailies) to do another (cast a spell from your spontaneous list). You are quite clearly not using X to do X; you're using X to do Y. The feat goes on to note that it aside from the resource used, it follows the usual rules for spellcasting, not the usual rules for bardic music, yet another hint that it isn't actually bardic music.

[Zanos]

I use munchkin to refer to someone who creatively interprets rules for a mechanical advantage. Rules lawyers usually refers to someone who just, for better or worse, insists that people always stick to the rules and optionally knows them well.

[Doctor Despair]

To me, a rules lawyer is... If it was a question made in good faith, they would have either presented no arguments for either point, or presented arguments for both points.

I was asking if I was interpreting a corner case correctly; if I had asked it perfectly neutrally, I may have been scolded for not even doing cursory research. I'm sorry if my methodology bothered you, especially around the holidays. Thank you for your reply.

[Vaern]

I would say that the feats labeled as [Bardic Music] would in fact count as Bardic Music abilities for the purposes of that epic feat.

However, in Lyric Spell's case, I would say that you are the only subject of the ability. The spell itself is not a part of the music's effect; rather, the bonus it grants is the equivalent of an extra spell slot from which to cast said spell.

[Doctor Despair]

I would say that the feats labeled as [Bardic Music] would in fact count as Bardic Music abilities for the purposes of that epic feat.

However, in Lyric Spell's case, I would say that you are the only subject of the ability. The spell itself is not a part of the music's effect; rather, the bonus it grants is the equivalent of an extra spell slot from which to cast said spell.

I don't think there are any feats tagged with [Bardic Music]? As far as I'm aware, while there are many things tagged with [Bardic], many that consume charges of Bardic Music, and some that do both, I don't think there are any with the tag you mentioned, sadly.

[stanprollyright]

Threads like this one are why I don't play with rules lawyers.

I think you hit a nerve.


I use munchkin to refer to someone who creatively interprets rules for a mechanical advantage. Rules lawyers usually refers to someone who just, for better or worse, insists that people always stick to the rules and optionally knows them well.

Yeah, this. Bolded part makes me LOL, rest is a great point. People also conflate munchkinry with min-maxing.

However, there has been no munchkin behavior here. Asking questions on a forum dedicated to these question does not munchkin make. Also, I don't think there's anything munchkin-y about an epic bard looking for ways to get around a common immunity that shuts down a majority of their abilities. Under that criteria, a Rogue with Darkstalker is a munchkin.

[Pleh]

Munchkin happens when any play style sacrifices group benefit for individual benefit (especially when the individual benefit is the chagrine of the group). Min maxing is an excellent tool for trolling a group. It's a great tool for a lot of things, but its association with munchkins is not without merit.

The OP wasn't overtly munchkin-ing, but it flirted that line because many tables would view this kind of rule bending to be in bad taste.

As with most issues of balance, the best advice is to steer clear of treating lyric spell as bardic music if you don't want to annoy the average play mate.

[Vaern]

I don't think there are any feats tagged with [Bardic Music]? As far as I'm aware, while there are many things tagged with [Bardic], many that consume charges of Bardic Music, and some that do both, I don't think there are any with the tag you mentioned, sadly.
It appears that the book has Lyric Spell, as well as some other feats, tagged as [Bardic Music], though similar feats found in other books may be marked [Bardic]. And it looks like some online feat references have all such feats are simply labeled as [Bardic].

So... I'm not sure if the tag was changed to make it easier to index the feats, or if it was errataed with the intention of creating more distinction between the base ability and extra powers granted by feats for the purpose of things that affect Bardic Music.
I did a bit of quick googling and can't find any errata notes regarding the tag changing, though, so I'm assuming it's just for organization purposes. But either way, I'd still say your epic feat won't affect the actual spells that you cast using Lyric Spell.

[Doctor Despair]

It appears that the book has Lyric Spell, as well as some other feats, tagged as [Bardic Music], though similar feats found in other books may be marked [Bardic]. And it looks like some online feat references have all such feats are simply labeled as [Bardic].

So... I'm not sure if the tag was changed to make it easier to index the feats, or if it was errataed with the intention of creating more distinction between the base ability and extra powers granted by feats for the purpose of things that affect Bardic Music.
I did a bit of quick googling and can't find any errata notes regarding the tag changing, though, so I'm assuming it's just for organization purposes. But either way, I'd still say your epic feat won't affect the actual spells that you cast using Lyric Spell.

Ah, that's actually really interesting. I wonder if the correct ruling is that Bardic Music feats are subsets of Bardic Music, then, as you suggest. If they don't, then I'd imagine nothing short of ACFs or PCFs specifically listed as Bardic Music would mesh with Music of the Gods.

In terms of feats, Inspire Spellpower seems like it would certainly qualify, as does Music of the Outer Spheres. The only other feat I see tagged with Bardic Music that would benefit from bypassing an immunity to mind-affecting effects is Warning Shout, albeit +5 to one reflex save seems a bit paltry for an epic-level character. Warning Shout seems like it would be more likely than Lyric Spell to 'proc, but less sure than Inspire Spellpower or Music of the Outer Spheres.

[Vaern]

I think you might be looking only for offensive effects of Bardic Music abilities that you could use. It does allow you to use things like fascinate or suggestion on things normally immune to enchantment, to which the +10 bonus on their saving throw would apply. However, it also allows you to affect the same types of creatures with beneficial effects. For example, if you happen to have a golem or something of the sort fighting for you, you could use Inspire Greatness on it; or if you had an undead army, you could make use of Inspire Courage with them.

...and as far as the undead are concerned, there's the Requiem feat available in Libris Mortis which is available at level 5 and allows your Bardic Music to affect undead so you don't have to wait until epic levels for that. And that one doesn't even give them a bonus to their saving throws against negative effects :P

[Doctor Despair]

I think you might be looking only for offensive effects of Bardic Music abilities that you could use. It does allow you to use things like fascinate or suggestion on things normally immune to enchantment, to which the +10 bonus on their saving throw would apply. However, it also allows you to affect the same types of creatures with beneficial effects. For example, if you happen to have a golem or something of the sort fighting for you, you could use Inspire Greatness on it; or if you had an undead army, you could make use of Inspire Courage with them.

...and as far as the undead are concerned, there's the Requiem feat available in Libris Mortis which is available at level 5 and allows your Bardic Music to affect undead so you don't have to wait until epic levels for that. And that one doesn't even give them a bonus to their saving throws against negative effects :P

Certainly you can use the standard abilities beneficially; I was, however, looking at the feats tagged with Bardic/Bardic Music that seemed useful/noteworthy. Many bonuses granted by these feats are untyped or otherwise not tagged as mind-affecting, however, and dodge the issue entirely.

On the same track as Requiem, Green Ear is another good one for dodging immunities pre-epic and Subsonics arguably dodges deafness since opponents are no longer required to hear your performance. In regard to dodging immunities, it is notable that you still need a means to speak to the given creature via magic, feats, or otherwise in order to use suggestion.

As far as classes go, most PrCs seem to introduce a new form of music that consumed bardic music uses but is not bardic music. Notable exceptions are Dirgesinger which says...


"...each of these songs counts as a use of bardic music..."

...instead of describing that it just consumed uses of bardic music, although the DCs are fairly low, and Sublime Chord which reads...


"A sublime chord expands her repertoire of bardic music to encompass new songs or poetics of strange and wondrous power. These effects function just as the bardic music effects described in the Player's Handbook."

... although none of the SC's new uses are actually mind-affecting, so do not benefit from Music of the Gods. On the subject of buffing uses of bardic music as opposed to offensive ones, Heartfire Fanner is also phrased such that it modifies bardic music instead of making its own thing, so should mesh with MotG. :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm inclined to say no. Like, hard no.

There are a number of things that count as expansions to the bardic music ability but they call themselves out as such. Since lyric spell doesn't, it's just a thing that consumes the potential to perform bard songs rather than being one itself.

As far as rules lawyery goes, I prefer the lawyer approach to the programmer one. Taking the intentions behind design elements actually isn't at all difficult if you examine precedents set in other design elements and consider precise language parsing as a secondary concern to that. Tends to yield fewer problems that way.