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The Cats
2016-12-25, 12:56 AM
I'm currently running a group that really likes to have a plan for things. I think it's great since I've been used to parties who just kind of rush in and hope for the best.

One of the players, however, has confided in me that he's been feeling kind of useless. He's not as strategically minded as the rest of the group and tends to just listen and do what he's told when they come up with these plans. He's always involved in the execution of the plan but hasn't really been able to contribute with coming up with stuff.

I tried for one session just bringing him into the conversation "So what do you think?" But the issue isn't him being shy or lacking confidence, he just can't really come up with stuff like that on the fly. It's just not something he's good at, but he still wants to be helpful.

This is what I'm considering: Giving him a magic item that lets him 'enhance his intuition' once a day or so. It would let him concentrate on the plan the others propose and come up with some detail they missed. Nothing like divination, just working with the information the character would have. I would be providing the 'eureka moments' but in-game it would be his character realizing it.

So that would make his character helpful. I don't know how I could actually make the player helpful, and our conversations have been unclear as to which of those he's actually looking for.

Advice, suggestions and opinions are all appreciated.

Stryyke
2016-12-25, 01:09 AM
I'm currently running a group that really likes to have a plan for things. I think it's great since I've been used to parties who just kind of rush in and hope for the best.

One of the players, however, has confided in me that he's been feeling kind of useless. He's not as strategically minded as the rest of the group and tends to just listen and do what he's told when they come up with these plans. He's always involved in the execution of the plan but hasn't really been able to contribute with coming up with stuff.

I tried for one session just bringing him into the conversation "So what do you think?" But the issue isn't him being shy or lacking confidence, he just can't really come up with stuff like that on the fly. It's just not something he's good at, but he still wants to be helpful.

This is what I'm considering: Giving him a magic item that lets him 'enhance his intuition' once a day or so. It would let him concentrate on the plan the others propose and come up with some detail they missed. Nothing like divination, just working with the information the character would have. I would be providing the 'eureka moments' but in-game it would be his character realizing it.

So that would make his character helpful. I don't know how I could actually make the player helpful, and our conversations have been unclear as to which of those he's actually looking for.

Advice, suggestions and opinions are all appreciated.

I don't think a magic item is the way to go here. This is an OOC problem, so it's best to solve it with an OOC solution. Besides, if all of his character's ideas come from you, the problem has not been fixed. He's still not really contributing.

There's 2 ways that I've dealt with this kind of situation in the past:

1) Make a quest that is right up his alley. Something he knows well IRL. That way he will be knowledgeable enough and confident enough to contribute.

2) Cliff hanger right before the group starts to make their plans. That will give the player a chance to think about what they could do for a whole week before ideas are considered. And maybe for the first time or two, have him give his ideas first, so if anyone else had the same idea, he will have "thought of it first."

Just a few thoughts for you.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-12-25, 01:13 AM
The GM interfering with suggestions during the planning stage sounds irritating to me.

How about this, give him the ability to flash back? Once the planning is over and the actual mission starts part of the plan will inevitably fall through due to incomplete information or whatever. When that comes up, let this player flash back to how he prepared for this in advance and pull out some helpful item/information/whatever.

The Cats
2016-12-25, 11:28 AM
Stryyke: I like the idea of a 'personalized quest' but think it will be difficult to come up with something that works in the setting and is still fun for the other players. He works as a dishwasher and general helper at the local UPS store and he used to be a drummer and radio technician. He enjoys football and his wife is a tax accountant. (I'm providing these details in the hopes other folks can help me come up with something because I am stumped lol)

I will try the cliffhanger thing next session. I may have to sit down with him outside the game to help him out as well.

I realize I understated the issue for fear of negative response which, on these boards, is unlikely. The player in question has a relatively noticeable disability that makes it very difficult for him to think quickly and retain information. He's a great player regardless: I have little info sheets posted on the back of my DM screen to remind him of rules and the other players are patient with helping him re-find things on his character sheet. He gets engaged and excited about the story, he just gets to certain places a ways behind the other players.

I may actually talk to them about it. Not ask them to slow down all the time every session, but get them to help once in awhile in letting him shine.


Koo: The magic item really just emulates a second level cleric spell with slightly more specifics (Augury). I don't see why it would be irritating when the players are actively asking the DM for input.

I don't think I will go with the retconning suggestion. It just clashes too much with my DMing philosophy (if you screwed up somewhere just roll with it, no backsies). Thanks for the input though.

Freed
2016-12-25, 12:21 PM
I might recommend less time to make a plan. If the players have to improvise, then that player gets to make decisions, and he'll have more fun if he's not listening to his party members draft a plan the whole session.

Draconi Redfir
2016-12-25, 12:24 PM
Perhaps you could give him a quick rundown of the encounter a few days before the session starts, and he can look it over slowly in his own time and come up with a plan of his own? Give him a copyo f the map and he might notice some guards standing next to some explosives nobody else sees.

Keltest
2016-12-25, 12:53 PM
Perhaps you could give him a quick rundown of the encounter a few days before the session starts, and he can look it over slowly in his own time and come up with a plan of his own? Give him a copyo f the map and he might notice some guards standing next to some explosives nobody else sees.

I would be leery of doing this. It could solve the problem, but at the expense of irritating the other players (Why did he get to look at the map layout for a week while we didn't?), and if you do let everyone have all the information at their fingertips a week in advance, then it becomes a contest to see who can come up with the best plan in a week's time, rather than a group effort.

Thrudd
2016-12-25, 02:34 PM
This is just a group dynamic. He's a different sort of player from the others, maybe not totally suited to this kind of game. There's nothing you can do to change how he thinks or give him more ideas.

What you can do is limit the time the group has to plan during battles, and get going with the action, so he doesn't spend as much time feeling left out.

If an encounter is happening and the characters are being attacked, ramp up the pressure, don't let the players sit and look at the battlefield and talk about it for ten minutes. They get one or two minutes to discuss, then roll initiative and start the fight. Each player gets 10 seconds to decide what their character will do when it is their turn. Combat is chaotic, people don't have time to come up with elaborate plans in the middle of battle.

When not in battle, and there's no pressing time limit for the characters, don't limit player discussion. They need to be able to strategize. That one player will either find his voice at those times or he won't, you can't change that.

shadow_archmagi
2016-12-27, 01:34 AM
Personally, I really like the planning phase, and it sounds like you and your group do too, so I wouldn't cut short everyone's fun just so Gary isn't waiting quite as long for the part he enjoys. Instead, I'd suggest trying to optimize your game for him in other areas to compensate for not being as excited about planning- What DOES he like? I've run games where 80% of the party was playing to win, and one player was playing to try to make his session log indistinguishable from a mad libs, and so he was overjoyed that he got to ride a seven legged ghost T-rex into battle, and the party was satisfied that he rode it into a strategically important place.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-12-27, 01:55 AM
A bit of education goes a long way. Have you suggest he read up on a few basic tactical manuals? Being able to recognize when certain basic maneuvers are applicable is quite useful but you have to actually know them first.

Beneath
2016-12-27, 02:09 AM
Doing planning between sessions might be a good idea. Giving him extra abilities to compensate for not being good at the planning part with everyone else might be reasonable (if you do the augury thing, though, essentially you're giving a new resource to the party which he can be final arbiter of. same with the retroplanning, though that's a little better), if the rest of the group agrees.

It depends on how much of a problem it is. If the planning step is making the game not-fun for him, then it needs to be dealt with, but it's normal for different players to engage with different parts of the game and if the game as a whole is engaging for everyone then it's not a problem.

Doing planning in between sessions, though, would give him more time to analyze if he wants to participate, and would also let him entirely opt out of the planning phase (aside from having to review it and know his part) if he chooses, without losing time that he's physically at the game.

Another option would be to go to a more collaborative GMing style, at least temporarily. The dirty dungeon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsnvANYBRWo) style might work, at least for a diversion; basically, rather than having a legwork phase where the players find out what the DM has planned for the dungeon and a planning step where they apply all that, they make up the dungeon as their characters do legwork. I wouldn't recommend changing wholesale to this style mid-campaign, especially since players accustomed to having you make the dungeon for them might want that instead of having to make their own, but this could make a good change of pace adventure and also let players like the one in question help planning (because it makes planning into a different skill)

Fri
2016-12-27, 02:31 AM
Personally, I really like the planning phase, and it sounds like you and your group do too, so I wouldn't cut short everyone's fun just so Gary isn't waiting quite as long for the part he enjoys. Instead, I'd suggest trying to optimize your game for him in other areas to compensate for not being as excited about planning- What DOES he like? I've run games where 80% of the party was playing to win, and one player was playing to try to make his session log indistinguishable from a mad libs, and so he was overjoyed that he got to ride a seven legged ghost T-rex into battle, and the party was satisfied that he rode it into a strategically important place.

This is pretty much my thought. Give him chance to shine in other places.

Jornophelanthas
2016-12-27, 07:39 AM
This is pretty much my thought. Give him chance to shine in other places.

I would go in this direction too. Basically, give him more spotlight time during the parts that he IS good at. But you should probably announce this to the group first, so everyone is okay with this. (Just don't give them any specifics, or they will just plan around it.)

For example, given that he is always involved in the execution of the plans, try to make his part of the execution always slightly more interesting/engaging than for the other players. Like having something unforeseen pop up just where this player's character happens to be, which he has to deal with on his own.

Don't be afraid to give him extra attention at these moments, because the planning moments are when the other players will shine.

Dimers
2016-12-27, 09:53 AM
This is just a group dynamic. He's a different sort of player from the others, maybe not totally suited to this kind of game.

My opinion is more like "He's a different sort of player from the others and makes a good complement". In my experience, too many leaders and idea-creators on one job tends to create confusion and open the group up to personality politics. A follower who executes plans rather than making them is a welcome relief.

I'd say, just reassure your player that he's fine the way he is, that the broader culture is wrong in telling him he has to be an innovator / leader / independent.

I'm the same way in my workplace and my marriage that your player is in the game. The times I've tried being the brilliant one in those fields, it has not gone well. These days I try to be a better follower, and I'm much more fulfilled and relaxed and successful.

The Cats
2016-12-27, 10:53 AM
Thanks for the insight everyone, I appreciate all your help.