What if spells don't need to be prepared but take 1 minute to cast?

[Yora]

I've always been very unhappy with the way magic works in D&D and have been trying to find new ways to handle this aspect of the game. Now I got this idea of getting away entirely from spells that can be cast at a moment's notice and go entirely with ritual based magic.

So how about this: Clerics and magic-users (and druids, bards, and so on) don't have to prepare spells and can cast any spell they have access to at any time. The casting time is one minute (6 rounds, 10 rounds, or a similar number depending on how long a round is in the particular game) and they still have to use up spell slots. (At least for the time being. I think I still want to do something more spell point based in my own campaigns.)

This would make a lot of spells mostly useless, such as magic missle, fireball, and most other direct damage spells and I would just remove them completely from the game.

I think at lower levels this would make rather little difference to how the game plays. Magic-users often have only one or two spells per day anyway and it's much more useful to use them for some kinds of utility spells than dealing 1d4+1 points of damage to a single enemy. And utility spells most commonly don't require to be cast in a hurry.
Clerics would benefit more noticably as they can decide to cast a healing spell when needed but not clogging up their spell slots with them. Healing during combat would be pretty much impossible (and make potions much more awesome), but in almost all cases it's much better to take out enemies and prevent them from dealing more damage than trying to heal the damage they cause. Usually the amount of damage than enemies can deal in a round is considerably higher than what you can heal with a spell. And again, at low levels the cleric would only have one or two spells per day anyway and not be able to keep up healing support in an ongoing battle.

In addition to that, I would like to make many of the more elaborate spells into 1 hour long rituals using rules similar to incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm). The more powerful divinations, healing disease, resurrection, creating magic portals, and so on.

What would you think would be the impact of such a magic system at higher levels? Would it make spellcasters more efficient or less?

[Sneak Dog]

It makes them horrible in combat and amazing out of combat.

[DoomHat]

It makes them horrible in combat and amazing out of combat.
That basically sums it up. The caster is virtually all powerful compared to those around him at all levels, until a fight breaks out, where upon they become helpless and bored.

I can not personally recall the last RPG combat I participated in that lasted more then 4 or 5 rounds, but then again my tables are also very large.

[Cluedrew]

I think it would force casters to be "artillery" in that they would take quite a bit of time to set up. You could open a battle with a spell (if you can see it coming), use it to end a stand off, but casters would have to swing swords in a melee like everyone else.

[Yora]

It's probably necessary to use the LotFP rule that all characters can use all weapons and magic-users can cast spells in armor as long as they are not heavily encumbred. It doesn't make them good in combat but they don't have to stand back and watch all the time.

I could also imagine having a number of spells that allow a mage to charge up magical attacks in advance and then be able to release them later, similar to touch attack spells in 3rd edition. Something like breathing a burning hands spell or summoning a small swarm of magic missiles to hover over your head.
Some minor combat spells could also work with 1 round of charging up and then releasing the spell as an attack the next round. It would still be more like summoning supernatural aid instead of just shoting magic from your fingers.

[Erock]

Why not just do it like sorcerers in later editions? You don't have to prepare spells, but your spell choice is incredibly limited. You only know enough spells to fill your current slots. A 5th level Mage in 2e will only 4 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and 1 level 3 spell.

[Yora]

Flexibility is only a secondary side effect. Creating a magic system where spells are rituals rather than a snap of the finger is main main goal.

In a game like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, where parties are assumed to be mostly low-level, fight very little, and mages can use weapons and armor it would make little mechanical impact. It it makes magic feel a lot more like you see it in books and old movies. It would be more a force of subtle manipulation instead of big guns to blast aside the opposition.

[NomGarret]

I would only do it if you add back in some lesser at-will ability for the casters, so they can spend combats feeling like something other than crappy fighters. Mages get something like a weak magic missile, clerics get minor bolts of holy light, and druids get single target bramble entangles. Make it a feature of their magic implements (wands, staffs, etc.), so it's kept distinct from casting spells.

[Yora]

It's smething I am very much considering. Perhaps limit it to only 1st level spells that have the lowest possible cost of magic power. That way players would have an option to play a more offensive sorcerer who can attack with magic, or a scholar who knows more of the big rituals and saves his power to be more reliable when it comes to the difficult stuff. Or something inbetween; it'd be up to the players which direction they want their sorcerers to take.

[Telok]

It's smething I am very much considering. Perhaps limit it to only 1st level spells that have the lowest possible cost of magic power. That way players would have an option to play a more offensive sorcerer who can attack with magic, or a scholar who knows more of the big rituals and saves his power to be more reliable when it comes to the difficult stuff. Or something inbetween; it'd be up to the players which direction they want their sorcerers to take.

What you could do is have the the traditional "attack" spells like Fireball and Magic Missile be a sort of pre-cast combat spell. The wizard uses his ritual time to precast MM and then has that many dice, one at a time, to use as magic attacks. Perhaps have the duration of the spell be hours equal to it's spell level.

For example a 9th level wizard precasts Magic Missile and Lightning Bolt as attack spells. For the next hour he has 5 shots of 1d4+1 magic missiles and for the next three hours he has 9 shots of 1d6 lightning.

[tensai_oni]

It would turn every combat encounter where at least one spellcaster is involved into this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518).

Buffing in DnD was always a very strong choice for a spellcaster (arcane or divine) and this change makes it so it's an optimal choice basically 24/7. If buffs run out, just take a minute (or several) to recast them and carry on with adventuring.

If you want this to work, you need to severely trim or alter the spell list. Or, you know. Play a system that actually assumes all magic is ritualistic, with long casting times, instead of trying to turn DnD into what it's not.

[Jay R]

The problem with first level wizards is that all they get to do is cast one Sleep or Charm Person spell per day.

That is what you are taking away, in exchange for - really nothing. If you only cast out of combat, then not having to memorize loses most of its value.

[RazorChain]

Yora why are you playing DnD? Like at all? It seems by lots of your posts that you are trying to change DnD into something it isn't.

Have you considered changing to a system that suits your needs instead of trying to change DnD? It just seems like a exercise in futility

[Yora]

Yes, I have. I found none. Basic/Expert is the closest thing I found to a perfect game that only needs a few adjustments.What's wrong with that?

[LibraryOgre]

On the other hand, I can see a number of the spells still being useful, even if they lose their main "shoot 'em up" aspect. A one-minute casting time won't be that bad if you're looking to assassinate from cover, or for siege warfare... sure, I can only shoot off one fireball every minute, but that's a lot of minutes.

[RazorChain]

Yes, I have. I found none. Basic/Expert is the closest thing I found to a perfect game that only needs a few adjustments.What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with any system, usually just matter of preference. Just by reading your previous posts I just got the feeling that you didn't like DnD much as in you played 3rd ed. for 10 years and thought it was awful.

[Telok]

Elves, or any dual/triple class character if you're doing AD&D, suddenly become a lot more diverse in spell choices. There are bunches of useful, niche spells that don't get prepared because of limited slots. So instead of a fighter/mage with the usual spells like Sleep, Shield, or Magic Missile prepared you'll have people setting up to cast Hold Portal, Jump, and Comprehend Languages.

[Yora]

On the other hand, I can see a number of the spells still being useful, even if they lose their main "shoot 'em up" aspect. A one-minute casting time won't be that bad if you're looking to assassinate from cover, or for siege warfare... sure, I can only shoot off one fireball every minute, but that's a lot of minutes.

I think things change quite a lot when you can cast spells quietly. I think in most versions of the rules, casting a spell is obvious to anyone nearby since you need to speak the magic words loudly. If you can cast spells while hiding in bushes or standing in the back of a group while the leader is distracting the opponents with talking there could be a lot of interesting situations with long casting times.

[LibraryOgre]

I think things change quite a lot when you can cast spells quietly. I think in most versions of the rules, casting a spell is obvious to anyone nearby since you need to speak the magic words loudly. If you can cast spells while hiding in bushes or standing in the back of a group while the leader is distracting the opponents with talking there could be a lot of interesting situations with long casting times.

Not sure I agree with that; Spells and Magic had "Awkward Casting Method" as a possible detriment, meaning that, if you had that, everyone noticed your spells when you cast them. Later, they say that the default is that casual observers won't notice the casting, while active observers should get an intelligence check to notice spellcasting.

And, even if you do go with "Can't cast from concealment", there are a number of situations where a full minute of casting won't cause problems... the aforementioned battlefield situation.

[Lord Torath]

The 1993 Dark Sun boxed set had a NWP called Somatic Concealment, which let a mage disguise their casting motions, making it hard to tell who was doing the casting. It also implied that verbal components could be muttered while material components could be hidden up sleeves or in pockets, making stealth-casting possible.

Dragon Kings introduced sensory effects to spell casting, like the sound of rushing waters, or the smell of baked apples, or glowing hands, or the gathering of clouds overhead each time a mage cast a spell. The more powerful the spell, the more types of effects that are generated (olfactory/taste, audible, visual, tactile) and the farther away they can be noticed. Just to make stealth-casting more difficult.

"Emergency" spells would tend to disappear. Feather Fall, for example, could no longer be used to avoid damage from being defenestrated*, or if someone cuts the rope you're climbing. Could still be useful, but only for planned drops.

The edition(s) least affected by this rule would be 1E/2E AD&D, which already have 1-minute combat rounds.

* Fun Fact: The spell checker recognizes defenestration, but not defenestrate, defenestrates, or defenestrated.

[SimperingToad]

Essentially, it looks like you are attempting to replace one method of preparation with another. BtB (AD&D), the preparation takes place during the day's time spent memorizing spells, which are then held pending the final action when 'cast.' What you are suggesting is that the preparation takes place at the time the caster wishes, then 'casting' it immediately after.

Using this method, I would tend to favor enforcing AD&Ds prep time, but opening things up so that the caster can 'prep' at any time, and either hold the spell as a slot permitting a brief 'casting' time (as per standard AD&D rules), or 'cast' immediately. Use the slots as a maximum that can be 'held' at any one time. Time spent 'memorizing' (to use the old term) would serve to limit spellcasting to a degree, as a 15 minute per spell level process would prevent MUs from becoming automatic weapons.

And let's not forget those pesky random monster checks while the prep is taking place. :smallbiggrin:

Anyhoo, some quick thoughts on the subject. Prolly need some tinkering.

[MeeposFire]

Personally I like how 5e does it though I can understand wanting some more limits.

Personally I find that most spells are not a problem especially standard combat spells (blasting for instance). I think increasing casting times and other drawbacks are fair if you do not want the spell to be used in direct combat on the fly. Essentially in 5e terms you make a lot of spells become ritual spells that still cost spell slots.

[Anonymouswizard]

As someone who personally prefers the GURPS system where combat spells take a round or two to cast, and high skill can make casting faster (although GURPS measures combat time in seconds, so a GURPS attack spell takes as long to cast in-world as a D&D attack spell at low skill levels, but can hit the same round speed at skill 18+).

Because this is off-thread, I must say that now I've actually played GURPS, the way the magic system is set up makes it rather balanced despite each individual spell being cheap. In essence a spell costs as much as the physics skill to gain points in, but spells have been sub-divided and you can't throw a fireball from your bare hands if you don't know how to summon fire and to shape fire. Even if you have the Create Fire and Shape Fire spells, it's not going to help you if you aren't a powerful enough mage to purchase the Fireball spell itself (and several core spells require Magery 2+ to purchase).

It also subdivides it's spells much more than D&D does. Ignite Fire does the same thing as Create Fire, except it's simpler because it requires fuel. In the end spells aren't a general replacement for skills, because most skills cover several spells worth of stuff and don't cost FP. Instead spells are specifically stuff that allows you to break the rules a little bit, in the same way as superpowers.

On this idea, I personally love systems that require a mage to prepare a circle and cast for five to ten minutes before they're allowed to cast their spell. It tends towards magic being noncombat, which is fine as I think most mages should at least learn how to depend themselves with their staff or blade, but really gets that more mystical feeling. I also like to make material components more important.

For my personal fantasy setting (using GURPS, because GURPS is an awesome system, if front-loaded) I'm using something similar. I've removed the mechanical distinctions between Mages and Clerics, spellcasters all have to buy Magery to represent that they have the 'something' in 10% of the population that allows them to see and manipulate magic, and then every spell takes 5 minutes to cast and requires multiple material components (generally no more than 5) and a skill roll to succeed. However, magic is less 'throw fire out of my hands' and more 'redirect a river'/'get a vague idea of the future'/'turn the ground into a road', and so it's usefulness in combat is minimal even if you can get your five minutes of chanting off.

The side effect is that alchemists become much more powerful. Alchemist's Fire or the setting equivalent is the closest thing to combat magic, and healing potions are in higher demand than ever before. Actually, depending on system (focusing on D&D again) there would be a massive effect on high level play, as a wizard wouldn't be throwing out 10d6 Fireballs and Lightning Bolts in combat. Whether that's a good thing (combat is focused on the warriors again, although in my games I recommend everyone nabs at least one weapon skill) or a bad thing (magicians can't participate in combat past the early levels as they have low defences and their offense rapidly falls behind) depends on you. Clerics are fine, they get a versatility boost like magic-users do, retain their weapon and armour skills, and can spend their combat turns bludgeoning infidels instead of healing the fighter. Sure it sucks if you forgot to cast Bless before combat began and now you have to decide whether or not to whack the orc in your face or take a minute out to pray, but that just sounds like a net plus to me. A party having to be on good terms with an alchemist to get potions and antidotes sounds like an improvement to the game.

[Yora]

My own plans for a new magic system go considerably beyond extending casting times. But it's the main difference and I wanted to look at it in isolation first and get a better understanding what effects that would have before making further changes. There's been a good number of responses that shine some light on this.

My central concept is to more or less take magic out of combat and redefine what a wizard is. Neither a support combatant nor a heavy firepower guy but more an archeologist scholar and expert of the arcane. In addition to increasing casting times this also includes changing what spells are available. I want to do something more like Conan d20 or Call of Cthulhu.
Something I very much like is the LotFP rule of letting all characters use all weapons and armor. Everyone fights about equally well, except for fighters who have much better hit chances.

What I also want to do is to give all characters spell points equal to their Wisdom modifier plus any Wizard levels instead of using slots. Everyone can perform 1 hour rituals but success requires a roll of 1d20 + current spell points against a target number. Only wizards can cast 1 minute spells. Once the spell or ritual is complete, the caster loses spell points equal to the spell's level.
A wizard with high sp casting simple spells has guaranteed success, but since sp go down with each spell, success chance eventually goes down. For non-wizards the odds are really bad to begin with and they are probably out of power after a single ritual. However, spell points can be boosted by using expensive material components, which can be either universal or specific to individual rituals. With such material components higher level rituals can be performed by non-wizards or low-level wizards and higher level rituals can be cast without leaving a wizard completely drained.

Regarding spells,I'd focus on summoning, divinations, long-lasting enchantments, and powerful protection spells that negate supernatural attacks or block enemies. Building a collection of rituals, searching for powerful material components, and smartly choosing how to magically prepare the party for an approaching fight could be a fun alternative way of playing wizards. And with no need for preparation, known spells can also be used to find creative solutions to unusual obstacles,

[Mutazoia]

Well...if you brought back the old rule about possibly having you spell interrupted if you take damage while casting....Otherwise there's really no point beyond fluff.

[Yora]

There's an edition where you can't be interrupted?

[Mutazoia]

There's an edition where you can't be interrupted?

In 3.X, between taking 5' steps (like anybody has legs that long) and "casting defensively" it's nearly impossible to interrupt a mage with a melee attack.

[Lord Torath]

Which is why the Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html) was such a big deal. Not even casting defensively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) (page 2 panels 3-4) prevents your spell from fizzling.*

And all casting defensively takes is a simple Concentration Check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html).

* In Roy's imagination, anyway.

[Telok]

In 3.X, between taking 5' steps (like anybody has legs that long) and "casting defensively" it's nearly impossible to interrupt a mage with a melee attack.

And 4e, unless there was a special interrupting power. But such a power would interrupt any other power regardless of type.

And 5e, which just doesn't have it.

[MeeposFire]

In 2e it is getting hit (not necessarily damage though most times you are hit you take damage) or failing a saving throw

[LibraryOgre]

In 2e it is getting hit (not necessarily damage though most times you are hit you take damage) or failing a saving throw

Ah, but what about Stoneskin? Does getting hit while under a stoneskin cause you to lose your spell?

[MeeposFire]

Ah, but what about Stoneskin? Does getting hit while under a stoneskin cause you to lose your spell?

I am totally down with that. Getting hurt is not the only thing that will not you out of concentrating on a task.

In this case I could see how even if the axe to your face may not hurt with your stone skin but chances are you still flinch and will be knocked off balance enough to disrupt a carefully done spell.

[Mutazoia]

Ah, but what about Stoneskin? Does getting hit while under a stoneskin cause you to lose your spell?

We always played that as "taking damage" disrupted casting. Otherwise you could just chuck a handful of gravel at the mage. Thus "Stoneskin" was read as preventing a mage from losing his spell when struck in combat (as it prevented damage).

[Grac]

Sounds similar to the sorcerer in Carcosa.
Given your aims, I'd suggest merging all spellcasters into one class, take out all the direct combat spells, make spells take 1 minute per level to cast, and after casting require a turn of rest, the same as 5 turns of exploring.

Don't limit spells per day. Let the magic user cast at will, within those restraints. See how it goes.

[awa]

personally i would suggest giving a limit on certain higher level buffs with long duration, if i recall correctly some of those could be overwhelming if you got to stack them on the whole party before every combat. likewise summoning spells could get out of hand if they have a decent duration. I would not remove the combat spells their just for ambushes and battle fields now.

[Pronounceable]

You know, if you wanna get seriously nitpicky, ADnD (and possibly 3e) magic is already %100 ritualistic. The wizard gets up in the morning and actually casts all those spells that are entirely wrongly called "memorized". The completed spells hang around the wizard and last few words and gestures during combat is the trigger to unleash the waiting effect. That's why "preparation" takes hours and the spells are "forgotten" once cast (despite the fact that there might still be 3 more magic missiles primed to go).

I'm pretty sure I'm not making this up because it makes the idiotic gamey DnD mechanics actually make sense and I hate gamey DnD mechanics as a rule.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, if you wanna get seriously nitpicky, ADnD (and possibly 3e) magic is already %100 ritualistic. The wizard gets up in the morning and actually casts all those spells that are entirely wrongly called "memorized". The completed spells hang around the wizard and last few words and gestures during combat is the trigger to unleash the waiting effect. That's why "preparation" takes hours and the spells are "forgotten" once cast (despite the fact that there might still be 3 more magic missiles primed to go).

I'm pretty sure I'm not making this up because it makes the idiotic gamey DnD mechanics actually make sense and I hate gamey DnD mechanics as a rule.

You're wrong, at least in the case of AD&D. AD&D, they're memorized... impressed into memory, released like a living thing by speaking the words and making the gestures. In 3.x, magic is "prepared", without explicit memorization.

[cucchulainnn]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but I have always liked, pic spells like normal and prep them as normal. In addition any spell can be cast from your spell book but the casting time is one full turn for every level of the spell plus the listed casting time and like normal if interpreted it is miss cast. Keeps it simple and versatile.

[Anonymouswizard]

My fantasy setting uses the Path/Book Magic system from GURPS Thaumatology, specifically the Paths version. This means that a spell requires a ritual space to be prepared, material components and foci, and time to cast (generally ten minutes to an hour). I'm allowing PCs to freely take the advantages that remove the need for ritual space (which I'm considering removing and saying 'setting up the ritual space is part of the casting time') and material components, but I'm being incredibly restrictive on the ability to reduce the casting time as it's the main balancing feature of the system (as magic doesn't cost FP under this system). It's also a lot more utility focused, a mage is far more likely to learn to summon fog or cute a disease than call down lightning bolts because the lightning bolt ritual is hard and not very versatile (although you can theoretically take a single 'shot' of lightning into a battle, as long as you cast the ritual beforehand and fought outdoors). It all works together to get my image of a mage having to prepare his pentagram and chant for several minutes in order to turn earth into a road or curse every firstborn child in a kingdom with a deadly plague.

Now such a system could be put into D&D, simply put spells into thematic paths, and make wizards invest in paths. Each spell takes a ritual of 1+ minutes and requires a successful roll based on the paths rating. Powerful spells are of course more difficult to pull off.

[Mutazoia]

3.x, magic is "prepared", without explicit memorization.

And cast at the stap of a finger. Not even that if you have the right "meta magic" feat

[Storm_Of_Snow]

IIRC, 1st edition also had the chance of casting interruption if hit.

To be honest, the only thing I'd do is reduce the memorising time at very high experience levels (especially for the low level spells), through little memory tricks, minor magical items (say an enchanted bedroll which contains a pocket for the mages travel spell book under the mages head, and allows them to learn their spells while they sleep but still wake up refreshed) and all sorts of other things a half-way intelligent mage would have sorted out for themselves as they went along.

The 1 minute casting time would mean people would go for things like wands and the use magical device skill rather than mages.

[D+1]

Tag on the thread is "Old School". In pre-3E editions - which is what I would call "Old School" (and not 3E or later) - the round is 1 minute long. What you're asking then is what happens if spells all take 1 round to cast. In that case the answer is, "not all that much". It's ultimately not much harder to actually get spells cast successfully - but where things are when the spell actually goes off is going to have changed between the start of the round and the end of the round. Being able to dispense with "preparation"/memorization is a significant advantage, but probably about cancelled out by the "everything takes a round to cast" change.

For 3E (and again - 3E is NOT Old School), it means all spells would take 10 rounds to cast. Under those conditions you're practically playing a completely different game and NOT one that is much like D&D at all. Half the spells in the book become useless - unless you actually re-write all those spells to make ANY kind of sense in the altered rules. Spellcasters of just about any kind can't do diddley in combat. Even spells with longer durations go UNCAST because NOBODY has 10 rounds of time to prepare before entering combat. It would also be foolish to even TRY to cast in combat because of the number of attacks you'd have to completely avoid or at least be utterly unaffected by in order to complete any spell once started.

Out of combat magic would still also be kicked in the teeth. Yeah, without needing "preparation" you get an advantage in always being able to cast the spell you want when you actually need it, but NONE of the spells you cast are really going to apply to immediate actions. A great many out of combat spells would ALSO still need to be rewritten to make any kind of sense or actually have any value.

Other editions, I wouldn't know and don't care and are most decidedly non-old-school anyway.

It's a curious idea, worthy of perhaps experimenting with for a single campaign in which magic is OUTRAGEOUSLY nerfed, but otherwise I don't personally see any merit or attraction to the notion.

[Lord Torath]

Yora generally prefers B/X or BECM or ACK, which all have 6-10 second rounds.

[LibraryOgre]

So, let's bust out Player's Option: Spells and Magic, and make these spellcasters. For wizards, we'll start from a base of "Wizard"... assume they have the same d4 HP, access to all spells, crappy weapons, no armor, and not much else.

To that, we're going to add two disadvantages: Awkward Casting Method (5) and Slower casting time (5). Awkward Casting Method means that you can't hide your spellcasting. You've got to stand up and be noticeable. Slower Casting Time means all casting times increase by one type, but we're going to redefine it: All casting times less than 1 minute become one minute, assuming a 6-10 second round; if we go with 1 minute rounds, it becomes 1 turn (10 minutes). We'll also say that all casting times 1 minute or longer are doubled. It's a little less harsh than the Wizard version, but more in line with the priest version.
This gives us 10 points to play with. What do we do with those 10 points? There's a lot of options... I kind of like the automagic "Read magic" a few times per day, but we might also go with Thief Ability: Read Languages... or, stretching a bit, we might go with Bard Ability: Magic Item identification, which seems like its the sort of thing a Wizard should know.

Now, we look at priests. Again, we're going with Awkward casting Method (5) and Slower Casting Time (5). Priests are a variable lot, but a few things you might choose:

Granted power: A given 1st level spell that can be cast 5 times per day (1 point for a 1st level cleric spell, 5 points to make it daily, 4 more to make it 5 times per day, total... EAT THAT, Expert Healer!)
You might make them Immune to Disease, or give them the ability to Exhort their followers into a Rage (+2 to attack and saves once the priest has chanted for 3 rounds, as long as he chants, and for 1d3 rounds thereafter)