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Ointhedwarf
2016-12-25, 08:19 PM
I'm trying to upgrade the lightsaber forms to a new level by making them a basic part of lightsaber combat. To achieve
this I had to start from the very basics, tweaking several things on the way. My goal is to represent in the best possible
way the 7 lightsaber forms and make it interesting for the players to choose their specialized forms and develop their
own fighting style very much like the heroes of the Star Wars world. I'd love to hear suggestions about these
changes though they may be a bit complicated.

I've always had an issue with the d&d's system of combat and mobility (not the feat). Melee combat seems too static
and there's rarely any need to move between hits. In a normal situation, the Fighter/Barbarian will simply charge his
target and start rolling his dices until either he or the enemy is dead. This is hardly impressive and it's the DM's role
to portray the battle so that it seems cinematic or simply cool. The only strategic advantage that is present in
most systems is the "higher ground" +1 bonus, and in my experience it never really comes up. But changing such a basic
concept such as combat movement has unlimited reprecussions and incompatabilities with the rest of the rules. So I've
always searched for a place to try and prod this feature...

I am now DMing a star wars d20 campaign with two jedi PCs so I've had the luxury of tweaking the Jedi class without having to
balance everything with the other classes. Since this has always been in my mind I decided to use the Jedi combat as a
testing ground for a combat overhaul. The way it works is this: (This only works in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat)

-First of all I divided AC into "miss" (up to 10 + dex bonus + dodge bonuses) and "deflect" (from miss up to AC).
This may seem unnecessary but it was a starting point and a place to build additional features around.

-If a lightsaber user's hit misses or gets deflected, the defender can then move 5 feet backwards and get +1 to his AC. (he cannot however enter another's threat range this way). This move can happen after all the attacker's attacks are completed unless the attacker is an Ataru Master (see below)
This way the defender is not forced to move, instead gives him a bonus if he does.

This simple tweak achieves the desired mobility especially if you combine it with certain battlefield features and even
the good old "high ground rule". It does however conflict with basic combat rules such as AoOs and the withdraw option.
Moving out of a target's threat range normally provokes an AoO so we must make this movement pass this obstacle. The
second conflict is withrawing. After moving freely 5 feet backwards the defender can then simply flee since he does not
provoke any kind of AoO.

Lets ignore these two conflicts for now and move on to the next stage: Lightsaber combat and lightsaber forms.
What I did was to enhance this combat feature by adding a different taste for each lightsaber form. The way this works is
that each jedi can select one of 7 stances while fighting. The stances work as follows:


Form I : The basic form. Good against multiple users
Form II: The duelist form. Agile and precise
Form III: The ultimate defense form
Form IV: The acrobatic form. Incessant and agile
Form V: A defensive form with counter attack elements
Form VI: The moderation form. Good with force powers
Form VII: The chaotic form. Ferocious and unpredictable



Form I : When a Shii-cho practitioner faces multiple opponenents he can enter a threatened square when taking a 5-foot step. (Normally being flanked by two attackers removes any possible place to retreat. This way a shii cho practitioner can easily avoid flanking and shows the Form's great use against multiple targets)
Form II: A Makashi practitioner can choose to take the 5 feet move at any of the 7 squares that surround him. (But not in a threatened square of a different attacker)
Form III: A soresu practiotioner doesn't have to move to get the AC bonus after dodging or deflecting a hit.
Form IV: An ataru practitioner forces his defender to move after each of his attacks. Whenever he does so he can follow his defender's movements.
Form V: When an attacker misses against a Shien defender, he loses his deflect bonus.
Form VI: [WIP] (probably the ability to use diplomacy/intimidation as a move action)
Form VII: A juyo practitioner can force his defender to move to a particular square. (if he chooses to move)


I have given these stances at lvl 1 for all lightsabers classes since it only affects their fights.
Now to give more depth I have added 2 levels of mastery for each form: Expertise and Master.
These are feats that I intend to incorporate within the force-using classes without making them more powerfull than the
other ones. The idea is that a Jedi Master (lvl 12) should have mastered at least 1 Form and have expertise with 3 or 4.
I haven't finished with the prerequisites but this what I've come up with so far.



Form
Expertise lvl Feat
Mastery lvl Feat


Form I:Shii-Cho
+4 on disarm checks
[WIP]


Form II:Makashi
+3 deflect bonus against lightsaber attacks
For every turn a Makashi practitioner deflects or evades the enemy's advances he gets +1 bonus on his attacks


Form III:Soresu
+1 on attack rolls deflect (atk). +1 dodge bonus on defense
[WIP]


Form IV:Ataru
An Ataru practitioner can use his Dexterity modifier instead of his strength modifier on lightsaber damage rolls. When using Ataru the attacker suffers 2 points of vitality damage per turn
An Ataru Master gets an extra attack at -5 at full attack. If an Ataru Master uses full attack against a target and all his attacks are deflected (not missed) then the defender loses his round


Form V:Shien/Djem so
The user gains a +1 bonus to deflect(attack) and can use when it misses by 10 or less
[WIP]


Form VI:Niman
A Niman practitioner's force powers dont provoke AoO's when adjacent to an enemy in combat
On a critical a Niman Master can choose to use a Force power instead. This Force power doesn't get any save


Form VI:Jar kai
[WIP]
[WIP]


Form VII:Juyo
A Juyo practitioner gets a +2 on confirm checks. When using juyo the attacker suffers 4 points of vitality damage per turn. On a hit or deflect the defender suffers the same
The Juyo per turn usage damage is decreased by 2. After damaging the opponent once, the attackers threat range increases by 1 (stacks with improved critical)



1. Shii cho is supposed to be the simplest Form with crude movements at right angle slashes horizontally and vertically. A Master however of Shii cho is described as having movements "like water flowing". Hard to interpret that in rules..
2. Soresu is the ultimate defense Form. I struggle to come up with a Master-level feat that would make it worth while to master it.
3. I'll probably divide Shien (a defensive form with counter attacks) and Djem so (an aggressive strength oriented form) into 2 separate forms.
4. Niman mastery seems weak as it is.
5. Jar kai is still incomplete. The idea is to work around a martial/acrobatic fighting style. I'm thinking of incorporating highly accurate unarmed attacks in the fighting style (similar to Darth Maul's)
Tell me your thoughts, thanks.

Zale
2016-12-26, 11:16 AM
I would consider if the five-foot step might be more valuable than the AC bonus: After all, if you can move out of someone's reach, you can completely ruin their full-attacks. You seem to be treating moving as if it were of a lesser value compared to the AC bonus, when I feel like it's the better part of the benefit.

Beyond that:

I think it's odd that apparently Lightsabers are inherently strength-based weapons, as they're mostly made of, um, laser.

Makashi practitioners seem good for dueling, as they can more easily set themselves up for a full-attack flank by five-foot stepping around someone. Their abilities seem suited towards fighting other jedi, of course; and their master feat will make them very dangerous.

Ataru practitioners seem at a disadvantage, as their ability is mostly good for forcing their opponents away from themselves. Unless they have features that allow them to easily move with their attacks, or extend their reach, then their opponents are going to overwhelming slip out of range of their attacks. Their final ability needs some clarification, as anything that makes people lose actions wrecks action economy in most d20 games.

Shien practitioners seem very flavorful. Their form punishes attempts to attack them; encourages them to get in people's faces and then torment them for failure.

There's a D&D 3.5 book called Tome of Battle that has a lot of martial-arts style things that might be of interest for mining for ideas for this.

Ointhedwarf
2016-12-27, 08:52 AM
I would consider if the five-foot step might be more valuable than the AC bonus: After all, if you can move out of someone's reach, you can completely ruin their full-attacks. You seem to be treating moving as if it were of a lesser value compared to the AC bonus, when I feel like it's the better part of the benefit.

Beyond that:

I think it's odd that apparently Lightsabers are inherently strength-based weapons, as they're mostly made of, um, laser.

Makashi practitioners seem good for dueling, as they can more easily set themselves up for a full-attack flank by five-foot stepping around someone. Their abilities seem suited towards fighting other jedi, of course; and their master feat will make them very dangerous.

Ataru practitioners seem at a disadvantage, as their ability is mostly good for forcing their opponents away from themselves. Unless they have features that allow them to easily move with their attacks, or extend their reach, then their opponents are going to overwhelming slip out of range of their attacks. Their final ability needs some clarification, as anything that makes people lose actions wrecks action economy in most d20 games.

Shien practitioners seem very flavorful. Their form punishes attempts to attack them; encourages them to get in people's faces and then torment them for failure.

There's a D&D 3.5 book called Tome of Battle that has a lot of martial-arts style things that might be of interest for mining for ideas for this.

Thanks for the notes, I have edited the original post and corrected some parts.

First of all I wasn't clear about the 5-foot step. It only happens after all of the attacker's blows are completed so full-attacks are still viable. I feel that if I mess with full attacks the repercussions will be too many to handle. There are several ways to take advantage of an attacker's clumsy attack so full-attacking is not without risk.

I know strength doesn't feel quite right but I can't really make a change like ability-dependence without having the whole system go wild. In the star wars lore there are many Forms and users that are quoted as having very powerful swings against which agile Jedi have had trouble facing (Darth Vader for one). The only thing that can break this STR ability monopoly is the fact that lightsaber wielders are treated as having the weapon finesse feat for the purpose of using their DEX on the attack roll. This, together with an Ataru dip, can make small agile heroes and species (like yoda) deadly with a lightsaber, without ruining the image of a Sith Juggernaut pushing back weak, unable Jedi.

Concerning Ataru I have now fixed the issue of following your defender. The Mastery level of Ataru came from a description of the Form where it says "it was intended to allow a combatant to quickly strike their opponent without giving them a chance to react". The idea is that an Ataru master, sacrificing his own fatigue, can engage the target in such swift and incessant attacks that the defender must either defend or risk getting slashed/chopped/stabbed by the jumping yoda. If the attacker succeeds in making the defender lose his round then he has neither damaged him nor missed. Using this technique in cooperation with other defenders is hard since both the Ataru attacker and the defender will keep moving away from anyone attempting to interfere. (I may even add a penalty to make it even harder).

I'll check ToB to see if there's anything that could be added using some reflavouring, though I prefer subtle choices in general.

Ointhedwarf
2017-01-04, 06:20 AM
force bump