Can someone convince me...?

[SangoProduction]

So, I hear that buff spells like Bull's Strength are good. But I always feel they are a bit of a waste of Spells Known or a Spell Slot (less so the latter than the former). Their effects just seem so...not meaningful. Whereas something like Grease, or Slow, significantly hampers opponents. Even Enlarge Person is more noticeable with its +5 ft reach.

I get being able to buff before heading in to an encounter, but that requires being minutes away from the encounter and them not reacting to you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, I hear that buff spells like Bull's Endurance are good. But I always feel they are a bit of a waste of Spells Known or a Spell Slot (less so the latter than the former). Their effects just seem so...not meaningful. Whereas something like Grease, or Slow, significantly hampers opponents.

I get being able to buff before heading in to an encounter, but that requires being minutes away from the encounter and them not reacting to you.

Like a -lot- of spells, they're good when you get them but they tend to peter out pretty quick unless you find a way to modify them into something better than they start out.

For bull's strength et al, that modification is either buffing the duration with the usual persistence metamagic trickery or boosting its applicability through the war-weaver's spell-weave or the like, both if you can swing it.

In the gap between levels 3 and 6 or 7-ish it gives a solid plus 2 to an important stat and that's nothing to sneeze at. After you pick up the first ability booster item though, it falls off quick.

One of the best draws for a booster spell is its broad applicability. If you prep spells, you may not have the one you need at the ready and if you have limited spells known then you might not know just the right one for the situation you're in. Boosters are -always- applicable since you always have allies unless things have already gone sideways pretty hard.

[Ieagleroar]

With a 1min/Lvl duration, it only lasting for one encounter (unless persisted). It is also a 2nd level spell, and thus not really worth it for a primary caster (esp. A sorcerer) who could web or turn invisible. HOWEVER, their are certain situations where this is worth it:
-Casting Mass Bull Strength where it will affect many melee allies if your focusing on buffing
-Casting it on something with many attacks per round, thus increasing the effect, (esp if you summon something with many attacks and can cast bull strength as a swift action)
-Core-Only Buffer builds may want to pick it up as well.

[Troacctid]

Bull's Strength is actually not good. I do not think it is worth taking, preparing, or casting. There are way better things you can do with a standard action and a 2nd level spell slot.

[Malroth]

Eagle's splendor is good to prep when you're Calling outsiders and Bull's Stregnth on the melee guy is a decent substitute for telekenisis for moving big heavy things out of the way. They're a lot better with Persist spell but on the whole a couple scrolls will probably more than cover all your needs.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, it may work as important out-of-combat spell: for example, what if party was buried under some debris, and even the mellee specalist can't budge it? In this situation, cast of Bull's Strength may save the whole party

[Echch]

Bull's Strength is actually not good. I do not think it is worth taking, preparing, or casting. There are way better things you can do with a standard action and a 2nd level spell slot.

I have to agree with this. While it sounds kinda nice on paper, it still got a low duration and not too noticable of an effect. I MIGHT be able to see a Wizard taking it at level 3, simply because it isn't hard for a Wizard to just add more spells, but once the first ability boosters come online (which can be as soon as level 5), the spell is already loosing half of it's effect. For a Sorcerer it's just a no-go all around, because the Sorcerer is limited on spells he can know at a time.

[Calthropstu]

these spells are actually absurdly efficient especially the mass variety. +2 means the difference between needing a 13 on the die and an 11: a 25% chance increase. Charisma from eagle's splendor is especially helpful in allowing party members to more likely grant the +2 bonus to the face in order to talk their way past issues. Casting Owls's Wisdom to get the bonus to sense motive can mean the difference between life and death... remember, this helps not just combat but out of combat too.

Bear's endurance in particular is the most useful for combat: The +2 hp/lvl remains useful every step of the way. At 20th level, it absorbs a full hit or two from the Tarrasque. Not bad for a 2nd level spell cast beforehand.

The duration is pretty solid too, at 1 min/lvl it's guaranteed to last at least a few combats assuming you don't tarry too long looting.

[ShurikVch]

Also, Necromancer with some melee minion can cast Fell Energy Spell Bull's Strength to give it +6 Str

[ExLibrisMortis]

The mental equivalents are very useful if persisted, because they allow the preparation/casting of additional spells, and they have few or no better equivalents.

The physical stat-boosting spells are blown out of the water by the bite of the were-animal line of spells, despite the shorter duration (you get one encounter's worth either way).

[Calthropstu]

The mental equivalents are very useful if persisted, because they allow the preparation/casting of additional spells, and they have few or no better equivalents.

The physical stat-boosting spells are blown out of the water by the bite of the were-animal line of spells, despite the shorter duration (you get one encounter's worth either way).

What are you doing that 1min/lvl is only one encounter? An encounter lasts less than 1 minute, you go down the hall and then there's the next one. What do you do for 5 - 10 minutes that eats the duration?

[Bohandas]

What are you doing that 1min/lvl is only one encounter? An encounter lasts less than 1 minute, you go down the hall and then there's the next one. What do you do for 5 - 10 minutes that eats the duration?

Probably checking for traps

[Calthropstu]

Probably checking for traps

See, that's why you bring along a bag of tricks...

[Inevitability]

See, that's why you bring along a bag of tricks...

Checking for traps with weight/size triggers?

[AvatarVecna]

Checking for traps with weight/size triggers?

Not to mention resetting traps.

[Calthropstu]

Checking for traps with weight/size triggers?

Never been a problem for me so far... worse comes to worst our party barbarian eats a little bit of damage... and if it resets, well once it's activated we know where it is and can avoid it.

[Gnaeus]

Never been a problem for me so far... worse comes to worst our party barbarian eats a little bit of damage... and if it resets, well once it's activated we know where it is and can avoid it.

I mostly agree, but the problem with this particular spell is that I find that by level 4-5 the strength characters have a belt of Str +2 which really reduces usefulness. The con and dex spells hold value a little better. Craft wondrous is a solid level 3 pick for many casters, and a belt of Str+2 at 1/2 price is very competitive compared with a store bought +1 weapon.

I will add though that some otherwise decent domains get it as a level 2 pick, which is where I mostly see it being used.

[Calthropstu]

I mostly agree, but the problem with this particular spell is that I find that by level 4-5 the strength characters have a belt of Str +2 which really reduces usefulness. The con and dex spells hold value a little better. Craft wondrous is a solid level 3 pick for many casters, and a belt of Str+2 at 1/2 price is very competitive compared with a store bought +1 weapon.

I will add though that some otherwise decent domains get it as a level 2 pick, which is where I mostly see it being used.

Yeah, I'll grant you the whole not stacking with the items thing makes it much less useful. If your fighter takes the belt it's time to stop memorizing it... but owls wisdom will always be useful for any noncleric for the +2 will saves/sense motive.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What are you doing that 1min/lvl is only one encounter? An encounter lasts less than 1 minute, you go down the hall and then there's the next one. What do you do for 5 - 10 minutes that eats the duration?
Not playing a kick-in-the-door-style dungeon crawler?

[Calthropstu]

Not playing a kick-in-the-door-style dungeon crawler?

No kick in the door style needed to move quickly: When you're out to rescue princess so and so, spending minutes in each room isn't going to work. Giving your adversaries time to form a plan is unwise: get the drop on them, smash their face in and move on before they realize you're there.

If you have the time, take it... but if you're casting buff spells, odds are you need them.

[Zanos]

The mental equivalents are very useful if persisted, because they allow the preparation/casting of additional spells, and they have few or no better equivalents.
All the mental spells have specific callouts that they do not allow you to prepare more spells, and that callout is independent of duration.

I personally think these spells aren't worth preparing or wasting a spell known on. They're good to have in a spellbook for crafters, and may prove useful if you know what you're going to be doing in a certain timeframe. Eagles splendor to make you better at diplomacy, or something. Absolutely not worth preparing every day.

[eggynack]

I'm pretty down on them unless it's a relatively out of combat scenario. It tends to be quite non-trivial to determine that you're within a few minutes of a monster, so a lot of the time this is an in-combat spell that might carry over to another encounter. So, you're often spending an action on this, and, if this is low level, you're also spending a high level spell which could really impact things.

These spells feel like they sit at the intersection of marginal and low duration. A marginal spell can be good with high duration, because you can toss them on at the beginning of the day or dungeon and never worry about missing encounters for that stretch. A high impact spell with low duration can be one you're satisfied to use in combat. Maybe if you don't have much in the way of options, but it seems like there usually are some options available.

[Telok]

Back in 3e when they were a 1d4+1 stat boost and 10 minutes per level I could justify them. But I've never seen them cast except once or twice at about fifth or sixth level.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Back in 3e when they were a 1d4+1 stat boost and 10 minutes per level I could justify them. But I've never seen them cast except once or twice at about fifth or sixth level.+1. They used to be pretty good. Now they're just dross, except for a few niche uses (such as crafting).

Another niche (but beneficial) use is the Imbued Summoning feat, which allows you to cast a spell of 3rd level or below on summoned creatures as a free action. Even better if you've got a number of ways to reuse empty spell slots (such as through a wand of mnemonic enhancer, pearls of power, and the Miser With Magic feat). That way, you can reutilize the same spell slot multiple times so as not to waste a single spell slot on a corner-case spell that you might need but might not. Instead, you can essentially cast it several times or none at all and not feel like you've really wasted much.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, the 2nd level stat buff spells are a bad example for exactly the reasons people have stated. Something like Enlarge Person is better at 1st level, Invisibility can be nice at 2nd, but 2nd's strong points are its debuffs.

[eggynack]

Another niche (but beneficial) use is the Imbued Summoning feat, which allows you to cast a spell of 3rd level or below on summoned creatures as a free action. Even better if you've got a number of ways to reuse empty spell slots (such as through a wand of mnemonic enhancer, pearls of power, and the Miser With Magic feat). That way, you can reutilize the same spell slot multiple times so as not to waste a single spell slot on corner-case spell that you might need but might not. Instead, you can essentially cast it several times or none at all and not feel like you've really wasted much.
Eugh. Really dislike that feat. This whole plan gets you to a decent amount over half of augment summoning, except it eats either a slot or whatever resources you're using here, and you have that metamagic cost as perhaps the worst part, because you can super likely get more benefit by, at the very least, getting 1d3 of the creature instead. With only the slot cost, it'd be decent to pretty good, maybe just good. Only the feat and it'd fall between pretty bad and decent (towards the right of that range if you account for other spell possibilities. Only the adjustment and it'd be just bad. All three and it seems thoroughly awful.

Edit: Actually, screw all that, this doesn't even work. You'd inevitably want to
Use +strength or +con, but you necessarily already have augment summoning as a prerequisite, and spell and feat alike are enhancement bonused.

[ExLibrisMortis]

All the mental spells have specific callouts that they do not allow you to prepare more spells, and that callout is independent of duration.
Good point. It's a specific thing for the second-level line, too; spells like owl's insight do not have the exception. That does pretty much sink the whole category of animal-themed second-level stat boosters.

[Flickerdart]

I like bear's endurance in my War Weaver's weave during the mid-levels. It's low-level enough to fall under the spell level cap, and can be triggered as a move action to save my standard for other buffs. It's also a very versatile buff, since it guards from both HP damaging spells (10-20 extra HP can be the difference between life and death) and all those nasty Fortitude save-or-cry effects. There are better spells to cast when you know what you need ahead of time, and it gets replaced with better spells in the later levels, but it serves its job in this particular time and place.

All the other ones are useless, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I do so love how this community likes to paint anything on the modest side of powerful as "useless." :smallsigh:

[Troacctid]

I do so love how this community likes to paint anything on the modest side of powerful as "useless." :smallsigh:
I don't think it's on the modest side of powerful at all. In fact, I think it's in the bottom quartile of the 2nd level Sor/Wiz spells in the Player's Handbook.

[Calthropstu]

+1. They used to be pretty good. Now they're just dross, except for a few niche uses (such as crafting).

Another niche (but beneficial) use is the Imbued Summoning feat, which allows you to cast a spell of 3rd level or below on summoned creatures as a free action. Even better if you've got a number of ways to reuse empty spell slots (such as through a wand of mnemonic enhancer, pearls of power, and the Miser With Magic feat). That way, you can reutilize the same spell slot multiple times so as not to waste a single spell slot on a corner-case spell that you might need but might not. Instead, you can essentially cast it several times or none at all and not feel like you've really wasted much.

My group casts it frequently. Generally +4 strength and +4 con. I have seen owls wisdom used a few times, but generally the con and strength get used most.

[eggynack]

I do so love how this community likes to paint anything on the modest side of powerful as "useless." :smallsigh:
I don't simply consider it weak from a spell comparison perspective though. I also think it's weak from an action cost perspective. A modest stat buff will often not be worth a standard action in combat, not when your actions can do so much. With that in mind, I definitely don't think it's on the powerful half of spells. Might not be crazy far on the bad side, but that's the side I think it's on.

[Der_DWSage]

I honestly have to agree with the idea that it's on the bottom quartile of 'useful spells.' Let's examine some aspects of why...

1)It's only useful for 3 levels, tops.
When you have a primary stat, you like to keep that stat as high as possible. Which means Str/Con tend to be very high priority, and they just...don't care as much about their other stats. This means that it grants only a +2 to any stat that anyone cares about (With possible exceptions for extremely MAD characters, like Monks) which translates to 'You have a +1 to hit/+1 HP per level/+1 to hit and +1 AC.' (I've legitimately never seen the mental ones prepared by anyone that wasn't an NPC mage without the WBL to get a legitimate item, so I'm just going to treat them like they don't exist.) There are 1st level spells that can grant those bonuses instead, and more efficiently, so a 2nd level spell is losing out to 1st level ones.

2)The benefit is purely numerical.
In both 3.5 and Pathfinder, spells are competitive with each other. 2nd level isn't where the biggest competition for spell slots typically falls, (I'd say that's 3rd level) but there's still a lot of goodies. While giving the Fighter +2 to hit and +3 to damage can be useful, wouldn't it be more useful to simply Web opponents in place, hit them with a Glitterdust, or some other means of stopping them in their tracks? Or having something completely different, like Invisibility or Levitate, to deal with other issues.

3)The benefit is boring.
This is more of a 'touchy-feely' argument, but honestly? Giving the Fighter +2 to hit and +3 to damage if he's using a two-handed weapon just doesn't feel like a powerful spell. It's not flashy, it's not interesting, and it doesn't enable new options. Compare to Enlarge Person, which opens up the tactical options of reach, and the various 'X of the Were[Creature]' spells that give a stat increase and some kind of option-even if that option is only a bite attack. It still feels more interesting than 'Fred's a bit stronger now.'

4)There are better options, usually available quite quickly.
Bless gives +1 to hit for multiple people, which is typically the same benefit Bull Strength will give by level 4. Aid can give the HP bonuses, while also giving a similar bonus to hit. Reduce Person can give the Dexterity bonus, while also giving myriad other bonuses. (Net gain on attack rolls, stealth checks, option to share squares if you're Tiny...) If we go to 3rd level spells, it's all over-Heroism, Haste, Summon Monster III for spellcasters that cast Aid...

5)It doesn't last long enough to be justifiable.
It could be saved if it lasted a while longer-but 3 minutes really does tend to be 'Long enough for two combats, tops.' Even with kick-down-the-door style play, there's still the time needed to treat wounds after a fight, search the bodies, search the room, etc. If it were 10 min/level? I could see it being a staple 'until we get a magic item' substitution. But with it lasting two fights at most, I'd rather take a combat-solver like Glitterdust or a utility spell like Invisibility. At least then, we're spending the same amount of resources for a similar effect.

ALL THAT SAID! There's still a use for it. As I mentioned before, NPCs don't have the WBL to actually buy magic belts and whatnot if they want to be competitive. So a byline of 'They have a potion of Bull Strength that they chug before combat' keeps them mathematically on par with the PCs, while also giving the PC some extra pocket change if they manage to ambush them. Or in the case of enemy casters, it's a nice, simple set of spells they can throw on NPC monsters, which then open up the tactical option of 'Dispel the monsters so they're not as strong, or lock down the monsters even though half of them might make the save?'

[Inevitability]

Yeah, the 2nd level stat buff spells are a bad example for exactly the reasons people have stated. Something like Enlarge Person is better at 1st level, Invisibility can be nice at 2nd, but 2nd's strong points are its debuffs.

This. Save-or-be-blinded-forever, anyone?

[Kelb_Panthera]

This. Save-or-be-blinded-forever, anyone?

Minor correction: blinded until cured. It's not as though blindness/deafness destroys the related organ and it's counter is the same level (healer).

[Inevitability]

Minor correction: blinded until cured. It's not as though blindness/deafness destroys the related organ and it's counter is the same level (healer).

Blindness/deafness? I'm sorry, I was talking about Heightened Seething Eyebane.

You're right, though I doubt your average wandering monster is going to have access to 3rd-level clerics. Even someone who does may simply lack the funds.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Blindness/deafness? I'm sorry, I was talking about Heightened Seething Eyebane.

You're right, though I doubt your average wandering monster is going to have access to 3rd-level clerics. Even someone who does may simply lack the funds.

Eh, too much time on this (DM) side of the DM screen for me, I guess. :smallsmile: Between that and the tendency to use classed humanoids for most enemies, is it any wonder I come at things this way. :smallamused:

[Stealth Marmot]

I find Bulls Strength to be very unimpressive, especially considering a bard at level 2 can use Inspirational Boost, a first level spell, and boost their inspire courage to +2, and it affects everyone including themselves. This is not only the same bonus as bulls strength, it affects ranged AND melee attackers, though the damage bonus from bulls strength is SLIGHTLY higher if they are using a 2 handed weapon. Bulls Strength can be nice if cast before a battle, but even then you have to be careful not to cast it where people can hear you but also not so far off the spell wears off. Other than that, it's pretty much less reliable and useful than a scorching ray. Cats Grace might be useful in the AC and Ranged attack boost, but again using it before battle is what makes it optimal over just shooting someone, and that situation is more likely to NOT happen before most battles. It might be nice for the rogue who could use a boost to sneak, but you could be expending your highest level spell for a +2 that only lasts 3 minutes. Bears Endurance gives only a few hit points at low levels and does not actually heal wounds. The bonus to fort saves, while nice, is situational. Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, and Eagle's splendor are all only really useful as DC buffs for casters, and occasionally for certain skill checks.

Notably, characters will likely get stat boosting items fairly early on, a +2 in their primary stat from as early as 6th level or so. Since the bonuses don't stack, the spell becomes pretty useless at that point. I still found uses for it if I ever wanted to make a really hard specific check on a skill, or buff another party member for said skill, but generally that was if I couldn't find a more potentially useful spell to memorize that day. Scrolls would be more useful for those sorts of situational spells.

If you are a wizard, it might be worth taking at higher levels to make a scroll or two of them to keep around. As a sorcerer, don't get them.