Does versatile spellcaster give wizard sponataneous casting?

[ayvango]

Let say that I managed to get spontaneous casting prerequires somehow (e.g. 1 lvl dip multiclassing in cleric)

How should I read the feat? Can I sacrifice just two spells to cast any other spell without preparation? Can I sacrifice spells from divine casters to fuel wizard casting?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not without twisting logic into a barely recognizable pretzel.

A certain, dramatically over-permissive reading could be taken that way though, I suppose.

[Malroth]

There's nothing in the RAW that actively prevents it from being used on classes besides the ones used to qualify for it, but It does set off a lot of excess cheese alarms in a lot of tables so be careful and check with your DM.

[Grim Reader]

Let say that I managed to get spontaneous casting prerequires somehow (e.g. 1 lvl dip multiclassing in cleric)

How should I read the feat? Can I sacrifice just two spells to cast any other spell without preparation? Can I sacrifice spells from divine casters to fuel wizard casting?

I believe a reasonable interpretation would be that the slots have to be empty. The feat, however, does not specify this.

There would be a strong argument that you could use divine slots, however.

[OldTrees1]

RAI:
Versatile Spellcaster is a cost replacement, not a new ability. Normally Spontaneous casting uses 1 slot of the same or higher level than the spell to be spontaneously cast. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to use 2 slots of 1 level lower to pay the cost instead.

RAW:
Versatile Spellcaster might be a cost replacement or it might be a new ability depending on the reader's(the DM's) chosen parsing.

[Crake]

There's nothing in the RAW that actively prevents it from being used on classes besides the ones used to qualify for it, but It does set off a lot of excess cheese alarms in a lot of tables so be careful and check with your DM.

What if you actually qualified for it via wizard? Like, say, through the spontaneous divination ACF, or that one conjuration ACF that lets you spontaneously convert spells into summon monster?


RAI:
Versatile Spellcaster is a cost replacement, not a new ability. Normally Spontaneous casting uses 1 slot of the same or higher level than the spell to be spontaneously cast. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to use 2 slots of 1 level lower to pay the cost instead.

RAW:
Versatile Spellcaster might be a cost replacement or it might be a new ability depending on the reader's(the DM's) chosen parsing.

Considering it says "Any spell you know" and any spell in your spellbook is a "known spell" a sorcerer could concievably use this in conjunction with the magical training feat (using the wizard variant) to gain access to a spellbook, and use 2 slots to cast any spell 1 level higher in his spellbook. Quite a novel concept actually, I might give it a try... Human, with magical training and versatile spellcaster at level 1 :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Aww, looks like the magical training feat simply increases your cantrip slots if you're a sorc or wizard already. Guess I'll just do it with beguiler or warmage :smalltongue:

[Doc_Maynot]

Considering it says "Any spell you know" and any spell in your spellbook is a "known spell" a sorcerer could concievably use this in conjunction with the magical training feat (using the wizard variant) to gain access to a spellbook, and use 2 slots to cast any spell 1 level higher in his spellbook. Quite a novel concept actually, I might give it a try... Human, with magical training and versatile spellcaster at level 1 :smallbiggrin:

You just described every sorcerer I've played in the last few years. :smallamused:

[Crake]

You just described every sorcerer I've played in the last few years. :smallamused:

Literally using magical training? Because I just noticed the extra special bit at the end of the feat saying that if you're already a sorcerer or wizard, it merely grants you a few extra cantrip slots. But it should still work with beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage

[Doc_Maynot]

Literally using magical training? Because I just noticed the extra special bit at the end of the feat saying that if you're already a sorcerer or wizard, it merely grants you a few extra cantrip slots. But it should still work with beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage

It doesn't say instead, does it?

[DarkSoul]

Literally using magical training? Because I just noticed the extra special bit at the end of the feat saying that if you're already a sorcerer or wizard, it merely grants you a few extra cantrip slots. But it should still work with beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmageThe extra part at the end of the feat is there to make the feat not-useless for sorcerers or wizards. Without it there's literally no benefit to taking the feat for those classes.

@OP: The simplest reading would be that you sacrifice two spell slots, filled or empty, of spell level X - 1 to cast a spell of level X. There's no specific wording regarding whether you can use divine slots to power arcane or vice versa, but I personally wouldn't allow it. Talk to your DM about how they want to rule it.

[Mato]

Can I sacrifice spells from divine casters to fuel wizard casting?

Can a cleric/wizard lose a prepared wizard spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell?
No. The cleric or druid’s spontaneous casting option applies only to spells from the same class.


Not without twisting logic into a barely recognizable pretzel.Pretty much this.
For example

RAW: Versatile Spellcaster might be a cost replacement or it might be a new ability depending on the reader's(the DM's) chosen parsing.According to the rules source called Complete Mage, you are to officially parse the sentence "Ability to spontaneously cast spells" to mean only spontaneous spellcasters can utilize the feat. So steps one through fourteen are three question marks in a row followed by the word profit which is also labeled #4 & #9. And step #6 also has to redefining the term "RAW" by dropping the word "rules" from it. :smallwink:

A more accurate term is a wizard can obtain the ability of spontaneous substitution. But that's another story for another day, the official rules already provided an official answer on the OP's question. Detracting from that is simply off topic or houserules.

[Zanos]

You just described every sorcerer I've played in the last few years. :smallamused:
This doesn't work, although versatile spellcaster does work for wizards.

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.
Not a lot of text to analyze, there. The core bits are spell slots and spells known. We're gonna go to the glossary for these definitions.

The "space" in a spellcaster's mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular spell level. A spellcaster has enough spell slots to accommodate an entire day's allotment of spells. Spellcasters who must prepare their spells in advance generally fill their spell slots during the preparation period, though a few slots can be left open for spells prepared later in the day. A spellcaster can always opt to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell, if desired.
Look fine here. Wizards and sorcerers both have spell slots. But what's a "spell known" for a wizard? The glossary defines that for us too:

A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.
A wizard has to be able to actually prepare a spell(and also have it in their spellbook) in order for it to count as a known spell. Versatile spellcaster cannot be used to cast spells out of a spellbook that you can't prepare normally.

Using versatile spellcaster you could use two cleric slots to cast a wizard spell, since those are two spell slots and the wizard spell is a known spell.

[Mato]

See? Like the accurate parts of Zanos's post says.


The "space" in a spellcaster's mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular spell level. A spellcaster has enough spell slots to accommodate an entire day's allotment of spells. Spellcasters who must prepare their spells in advance generally fill their spell slots during the preparation period, though a few slots can be left open for spells prepared later in the day. A spellcaster can always opt to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell, if desired.
The wizard fills his slots instead of using them.

Here is part of updated rule entry which will be even more important later on.

Arcane spellcasters, also known as arcanists, prepare spells in a particular way, following specific rules. (like "A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time" ~PHB56) A character’s level in an arcane spellcasting class limits the number of spells that character can prepare and cast.

SPELL SLOTS
A class table shows how many spells of each level a spellcaster of that class can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.

SPELL PREPARATION PROCESS
Until arcane spellcasters prepare spells, the only spells they have available to cast are the ones already prepared and not yet used from the previous day.The general rules are a wizard casts prepared spells is actually a type of literal statement. They use their spell slots like containers and load prepared spells into them so the prepared spell can be used to cast prepared spells.

This is echoed in spells/items as well. For example, mage’s lucubration "The recalled spell is stored in your mind as through prepared in the normal fashion" directly prepares a spell and would fall under your daily limitations rendering it unusable. However since a wizard specifically can cast his prepared spells and his limitations primarily apply to how often he can prepare a spell in a given slot he can still benefit from mage's lucubration as intended. For another example look at SpC's version of spell engine "Empty spell slots from a spell cast earlier in the day (including the casting of this spell) cannot be refreshed.".

In contrast look at the wording for spontaneous spellcasters and the correctly separated spell slot entry. There really is a reason why it's important to make the distinction to use the two correct entries rather than using just one of them for both and assuming they are identical.

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots.

SPELL SLOTS
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spontaneous spellcaster always has the option to use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell.

REST AND READYING
Without such a period of rest and concentration, a spontaneous spellcaster doesn’t regain the spell slots used up the day before.

Going back to that complete mage entry that rebuked Zanos's entire post before he even submitted it. When CM says only spontaneous spellcasters can utilize the feat. You should now know it was referencing how a spontaneous spellcaster uses his slots to cast spells but prepared spellcasters use prepared spells to cast prepared spells. A wizard has no ability to use a slot to cast anything and specifically must prepare his spells but the feat does not grant any undocumented exception to that in it's unprinted text as some may attempt to claim otherwise even if they actually qualify for the feat by actually taking a level in sorcerer.

[Zanos]

The feat expressly grants the ability to use slots for this purpose. And "use" is not a term that 3.5 redefines to mean something other than it's normal definition. You're pretzeling the rules more than anyone at this point to defend your own point of view.

[Troacctid]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't include any language that would bypass the normal rules for spellcasting, except to allow you to use two lower-level spell slots in place of one higher-level spell slot. In the absence of such language, using the feat with a wizard requires you to prepare the higher-level spell as normal, except that you use the two lower-level spell slots instead of the slot it would normally take. If you have a spontaneous casting ability, you can similarly use two lower-level spell slots to spontaneously cast a higher-level spell.

On no account can you spontaneously cast a spell from one class using spell slots from another class. That's right out. (RC 139.)

[SangoProduction]

This has been debated a billion times, and still no conclusion has been settled upon. It's rather pointless at this point.