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Wraithy
2007-07-17, 02:25 PM
the DM has decided to keep the school banned anyway, and I genuinly don't want to have my character defiled by ogres over the sake of a single spell.
thread closed

Arbitrarity
2007-07-17, 02:30 PM
It's alter self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, and shapechange that are problems. Mostly because of war trolls and the like. Baleful polymorph is just like feeblemind, confusion, glitterdust, fear, etc. Save or lose. Actually, less AOE than most of those, but it's a literal lose, not a "suck so badly you WILL lose"

Anxe
2007-07-17, 02:36 PM
Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-17, 02:38 PM
Yeah, alter self can only get you +6 natural armour, a 60 ft fly speed, etc.

Nothing broken, for a 10mins/level 2'nd level spell.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-17, 02:39 PM
Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

They are too useful. Search the forums and you'll find enough proof to drown in.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-17, 03:05 PM
Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.

Wraithy
2007-07-17, 03:05 PM
so do people think baleful polymorph is over powered or not?

Fixer
2007-07-17, 03:19 PM
No. Your GM is simply 'throwing out the baby with the bath water' as it were.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-17, 03:32 PM
More like "throwing out the shiny rock with the less shiny rocks," I think.

Douglas
2007-07-17, 03:40 PM
Pretty much anything that lets you look through the entire Monster Manual plus supplements and say "I want to be that" is overpowered. It's practically impossible to come up with a generic set of restrictions to such a spell that covers every abusable option when there are that many options to choose from, especially when every new supplement adds more options with little or no consideration to the possibility of PC's polymorphing into them. So, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are overpowered.

All the new polymorph subschool spells let you change into a specific short list of forms, sometimes even just one, instead of looking through the entire MM for something that fits the restrictions. As such each spell can be balanced on the merits of the specific forms available. In general, these spells are probably balanced.

Baleful Polymorph is just another save-or-lose. There's nothing special about it. If your DM considers Baleful Polymorph overpowered, he should treat all save-or-lose and save-or-die spells the same way.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-17, 03:52 PM
Message from our Dm (who has gone to dinner and can't comment): The entire polymorph sub school is banned.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-17, 04:03 PM
Out of curiosity, what WAS the WOTC attempt at fixing this, anyway? I know it failed, but what was it?

PinkysBrain
2007-07-17, 04:06 PM
Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.
So now I have to be on my toes each time I put a monster in just so I don't break the spell? That's entirely the wrong way around IMO. I'll keep the option to include any monsters I like and ditch the spell (or at least as written).

Counterspin
2007-07-17, 04:08 PM
I agree with Douglas. It's just a save or die. Unless the lack of the spell is plot important, there's no good reason to ban it.

PlatinumJester
2007-07-17, 04:08 PM
WOTC? ten letter limit

Hyfigh
2007-07-17, 04:13 PM
Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

Emphasis mine. What? The spells description doesn't say anything to that effect at all. Was it a change implemented with the sub-school?

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-17, 04:20 PM
Baleful Polymorph:
Primary Caster: "I use Baleful Polymorph on the (Sorcerer, Cleric, or Wizard). I turn him into a Pixie."
Secondary Caster: "I fail my save."
24 Hours Later..
Secondary Caster: "I fail my save again."
*Party fills in the new pixie about what happened. Player makes a new character of the equivalent ECL.*

Thats about the only way to really use Baleful Polymorph effectively.

Personally, I get rid of everything above Alter Self, then make Alter Self a fourth level spell.

CrazedGoblin
2007-07-17, 04:31 PM
WOTC? ten letter limit

Wizards of the Coast

Kurald Galain
2007-07-17, 04:43 PM
So now I have to be on my toes each time I put a monster in just so I don't break the spell? That's entirely the wrong way around IMO. I'll keep the option to include any monsters I like and ditch the spell (or at least as written).

I said common. Most humanoid monsters I put in anywhere aren't even remotely common (non-humanoids aren't available via alter self). In my campaign this would mean any of the major races, meaning he could turn into such things as an elf (most subraces don't exist here), gnome or lizardman. I think I can handle that.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-17, 04:51 PM
A pixie isn't an animal. Baleful polymorph turns the target into an animal.

...so no, you can't even abuse it that way. Unless you're permitted to play a sub-3 int score creature, and for some reason want to.

goat
2007-07-17, 05:59 PM
"What's that Lassie? The evil Lich has taken over the king's summer palace and Norris the bard has fallen down a well?"

"Woof!"

RedScholarGypsy
2007-07-17, 06:22 PM
it's not so much he banned the whole sub-school as he provided no in game explanation. I've played games where whole schools were banned, but it was logically and well-written into the lore of the campaign, so our arcanes' rolled with it. It made things more interesting and forced them to be creative, which is what I like about restrictions; this one just seems to be a simple way to avoid some hassle with polymorph, which is fine to an extend. This is a little extreme, but that's not my problem: with no in-game explanation I cry foul.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-17, 06:30 PM
Er, do we have lore IRL about how there aren't any Ilithids? You don't need an in-game explanation for something not existing if it simply never existed.

No one has ever been able to cast Polymorph, no one ever will, no one wrote about it because all it is is a few arcane experiments that didn't pay off.

ByeLindgren
2007-07-17, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I was about to say, maybe he banned Baleful because it would be weird to have just that kind of Polymorph. Makes more sense if everything's out. I'm able to suspend my disbelief for a just-Baleful campaign, though. It's much harder to believe that Polymorph-allowed wizards haven't already killed you and everything else.

RedScholarGypsy
2007-07-17, 06:50 PM
When you can change the fabric of reality in how many different ways? Plus, he just banned this subschool: not shapechanging altogether. Why can a Druid shapeshift and not a Wizard? Or some monsters? I agree that with a lot of things you can get away without an explanation when making a setting, but such arbitrariness puts me off.

Also, please realize I never said he was WRONG to do so. He's DM, and as long as it doesn't really hurt the fun, it doesn't matter. I just said I didn't like it. My opinion.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-17, 06:59 PM
Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.
There are a handful of basic ways to fix the polymorph line of spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange) fairly successfully:

1) It's a variation on a Summon spell - you replace the target with a version of the creature that shares the target's alignment and goals; the creature minus the stuff the particular version of the spell wouldn't give, not you+. Thus, if you turn your buffed-to-the-gills Fighter buddy into a Troll, he's a troll for the duration, minus a few things (but not plus the corresponding stuff from his original self). Gear's gone, any buffs that were on him are gone, he can't use that level of barbarian to Rage at the moment, can't use his Fighter Bonus Feats, and so on. He's Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6, 6d8+36 (63) hp, 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3), and so on - but doesn't have Regeneration, Darkvision (and if he had Darkvision from having been a dwarf, he loses it!), and so on, as you only used Polymorph, which doesn't grant special qualities, just Ex special attacks. When the "summon" runs out of HP, the Fighter reverts with that amount of damage (which might kill him, potentially). Likewise, if the Wizard turns into a Troglodyte for the +6 natural armor, the Wizard is Str 10, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10 for the duration (and couldn't cast spells, even putting a Headband of Intellect on after the change - as the MM Troglodyte can't cast spells) - and that +4 Armor bonus from the Mage Armor cast earlier? Gone.

2) Most of it is effectively illusion - the spell gives a "buff" from a list appropriate to the "new form" based on caster level (and limited based on the spell level), and the caster makes a Disguise check to make the target seem to be a member of that species - so the Wizard-3 using Alter Self to be a Troglodyte for the next half hour would get to pick between a claw attack, a bite attack, and +1 Natural Armor (such bonuses being capped by caster level). The Wizard using Alter Self to become a Merfolk would have to choose between Swim-30 (maximum speed being chained to caster level), and... well, okay - Merfolk don't have much in the way of special abilities.

3) Specific forms only. Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are replaced with individually researched spells, each of which turns the target into a highly specific form with a specific set of abilities and potentially different spell levels - so Polymorph(Dog) would have a different level from Polymorph(Riding Dog) and Polymorph(Hydra) -

4) Some variant on one or more of the above.

5) The line is removed from the game entire.

6) Stuff I haven't really thought of.

Most, though, will agree that when the Wizard can turn the Rogue into a N headed Hydra at Nth level (where N is between 5 and 12), and the Rogue can go to town on his turn with N sneak attacks, each equipped with floor((n+1)/2) Sneak Attack dice due to the Fighter's Flanking, that something is a little more powerful than it ought to be. Especially if the Rogue is also getting full iterative attacks in by way of Improved Unarmed Strike. And that's a simple, core-only use of the spell.

Gavin Sage
2007-07-17, 07:01 PM
it's not so much he banned the whole sub-school as he provided no in game explanation.

Are you using an established campaign setting? Since if not then there's no need for it an explanation, the magic doesn't exist. Bang over and done with. The is no in game explanation because there is nothing to explain. Magic simply doesn't work like that.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-17, 07:10 PM
Well, wizards also can't heal, or command plants. At least, not using spells I'm aware of. There are lots of things wizards can do, but there are a fair number their magic just doesn't seem to cover.

I think it would most like be clunkier if there were an attempted explanation. It has to be well written (so the players don't look at it 5 minutes and come up with a logical refutation) and somehow be known in-game...it's both easier and cleaner to just remove the spells from the set of discovered magic. This also leaves open the possibility of introducing some sort of balanced polymorph-type magic at a later date (if you can come up with a balanced polymorph spell).

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-17, 07:20 PM
"Creatures' shapes are intrinsically tied to their souls, and changing either is extraordinarily difficult. It takes a powerful mage to even try, and the results are always monstrosities: permanently twisted, half-insane creatures like owlbears, minotaurs, and chimeras. Druids approach the transformation in a different way; using years of training and a heartfelt connection with nature, they can temporarily reshape their very souls."

Eh?

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-17, 07:22 PM
Sample 5 minute (or second, actually) response:

What about Dragons and such with alternate form?

Ooh, another one:

What about reincarnation?

EDIT: By which I'm not trying to say that that's a bad explanation. But if your players have any desire to follow the threads, you need to think out all the implications of your explanation to a lot of depth. Or be ready to play dodge-logic at a later point when you've actually unwittingly contradicted your metaphysics, and a PC notices.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-17, 07:33 PM
Dragons have differently-shaped souls than ordinary people; also, they just have a different psychology. Assuming the shapes of other creatures just comes more easily to them.

Reincarnate: The voyage back from the afterlife is a difficult and wrenching journey (as it says in Core); generally, the creature's soul is not so damaged that it will take the form of a non-humanoid creature. Without the proper protections, though (as are found in Raise Dead, etc), the creature's soul may be injured enough as to take the form of something resembling another species's.

EDIT: Faugh. I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm in kind of a rush right now.

Swordguy
2007-07-17, 10:00 PM
Here's a thought: would YOU be okay with it if you were sheeped and coup-de-graced by an NPC? If you can't do it, then you should be safe from the DM doing it to you.

SurlySeraph
2007-07-18, 01:01 AM
The fix I use is reducing the duration and only allowing you to polymorph into creatures whose CR is lower than or equal to 1/2 of your character level. Of course, there are still creatures with broken CRs, but it helps a lot. Another good fix is to only allowing polymorphing into a creature that you can actually see when casting the spell.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-18, 07:48 AM
Hi everyone,

actually, the morphing spells are not that overpowered, when you take a closer look at them. Some of the following remarks depend on DM's decision (since the rules do not provide any ruling on those themselves, so certainly no RAW abuse is possible):

Alter Self:
Highly useful since it can work as a great disguise, and occasional movement/combat buff.
Caveats:
- you can only turn into a creature of your type, so only humanoids are possible for most characters. The troglodyte for +6 natural armour is cool, but remember you lose all your own racial traits as well. For example, your human bonus feat and skill points; or if a dwarf you lose darkvision (while not getting the darkvision of the troglodyte).
- as for all morph spells, look out what happens with your (magical) equipment. Your weapons and armour do not resize with you; and for later morph spells (the kind that turns you into a dragon), some items may become non-functional (for instance, dragons cannot wear humanoid-clothes magic items like cloaks or belts)

Polymorph:
Even more versatility, since the physical stats are changed as well and the pool of possible creatures to turn into multiplies. An added bonus is that you can also morph other willing creatures and can use it for limited healing (once per spell casting).
Caveats:
- similar problems as alter self
- it only lasts 1 min/level
- you get the STR, DEX, CON score of the new being (making big creatures attractive), but it is capped at 15 HD, and does not include all (like outsiders). Note that many big creatures have likely worse DEX than you, so you get slower in the initiative.
- here, a problem with the alter self passage starts to become a problem: "You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components." So, this could mean (depending on DM interpretation) that you cannot cast spells any more while in, say, dragon (according to SRD, dragons "know and cast spells as a sorcerer of the same level", so this may be interpreted by a DM that wizards can no longer cast, but that would be harsh) and certainly not in monstrous spider form. Monstrous spiders would also prevent speaking and thus command word item activation.
- not exactly outlined in the rules (no RAW specification exists), but you cannot turn into creatures that you cannot name. So, if your character does not know a green dragon exists, he will not be able to turn into it. Thus no paging through the Monster Manuals to get the best creature available! :smallsmile:
The DM will likely ask a relevant knowledge DC 10 check from you (not that difficult, but note that knowledge is a trained only skill and that for each creature type you may need different related knowledge skill).

Polymorph any Object:
As polymorph, but you can even create a sentient being out of a stone for a short while (and the other way round); in other cases it has the double-edged advantage of a longer duration.
Caveats:
- as alter self and polymorph
- double edged duration advantage, because you may not want to be a green dragon all the time. You need a dispel magic to end the "buff".
- you get the INT of the new form. This can have disadvantages in form of less bonuses and ability to cast wizard spells; but more importantly it entails (if one interprets mental stats as a basis for roleplaying, as many groups would do, but not specified in the RAW exactly) a personality change which intensifies with the difference in INT score between original and morphed form.

Shapechange:
Great spell, worthy of 9th level. Cool in that you can heal as per polymorph once per turn, and that you can change as a free action once per turn. 25HD and below all non-unique creatures are possible, including outsiders. Plus you get all special and supernatural (but thus not spells and spell-like, so no Solar spell casting or free wishes!) abilities.
Caveats
- as alter self and polymorph (again, personal range only, but a familiar would be affected as well)
- some creatures like the choker have awesome supernatural abilities: the choker has the ability to take two standard actions in a round- great for spellcasting.... Unfortunately, it is up to the DM to decide whether chokers with non-humanoid hands/tentacles (they are aberrations) fulfill the appropriate alter self requirements. Since there is a separate 9th level spell (time stop) intended for this kind of magic, likely the DM's answer will be no.:smallbiggrin:
- apparantly the designers wanted to put a limit to the possibilities of what creatures you can turn into with the passage: "You can become just about anything you are familiar with." Since "familiar" is not defined by the RAW in this case (teleportation suggests at least 1 hour of careful study), it is up to the DM to decide what it means. Certainly not merely knowing the name; it could mean quite a high appropriate Knowledge DC check.

Maybe, Wraithy, these comments can make your DM revise his decision to outright ban morphing spells! :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-07-18, 08:39 AM
actually, the morphing spells are not that overpowered, when you take a closer look at them.
That's funny.


- you can only turn into a creature of your type,
So what if you're a tiefling? Or have the otherworldy feat? Cheese is cheap. I'd trade 4 skill points for +6 AC any time.


dragons cannot wear humanoid-clothes magic items like cloaks or belts)
Dragons don't need to wear cloaks or belts.


- it only lasts 1 min/level
Enough for any combat. Plus you can persist it.


Note that many big creatures have likely worse DEX than you, so you get slower in the initiative.
Oh noes! If I turn into a dragon, I'll have a worse initiative! Gee, that's a tough decision.


you cannot cast spells any more while in, say, dragon
So turn into a demon. Problem solved. You are really reaching to find some drawbacks that are only marginally meaningful.


if your character does not know a green dragon exists, he will not be able to turn into it.
Knowledge arcana.


for each creature type you may need different related knowledge skill).
False, there are only a handful of relevant knowledge skills in the book (arcana, the planes, religion basically covers all of it) and all of them are wizard class skills.


- double edged duration advantage, because you may not want to be a green dragon all the time. You need a dispel magic to end the "buff".
Why wouldn't you? Besides, PAO is based on polymorph; PM is dismissible. Ergo,


- you get the INT of the new form. This can have disadvantages in form of less bonuses and ability to cast wizard spells;
It can have the ADvantage of being even more intelligent.


Cool in that you can heal as per polymorph once per turn, and that you can change as a free action once per turn.
Yes, and a free heal spell each roudn is not at all overpowered, nosiree.



- as alter self and polymorph (again, personal range only, but a familiar would be affected as well)
Oh dear, those are serious drawbacks.



- some creatures like the choker have awesome supernatural abilities: the choker has the ability to take two standard actions in a round- great for
Oh yeah, the DM can forbid individual monsters by DM fiat. Good thing there's a thousand monsters in the PHB.


- apparantly the designers wanted to put a limit to the possibilities of what creatures you can turn into
And apparently they failed. Big time.


Yep, that was funny.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-18, 09:31 AM
That's funny.

Ach, Kurald Galain...but at least I entertained you...:smallsmile:


So what if you're a tiefling? Or have the otherworldy feat? Cheese is cheap. I'd trade 4 skill points for +6 AC any time.

Not all are tieflings, and it's +1 LA hurting your casting ability. The otherworldly feat is highly DM-dependent if he allows it (if he even allows the non-PHB tiefling race). Cheese is cheap, as long as a DM allows a sale :smallsmile:


Dragons don't need to wear cloaks or belts.

There goes the cloak of protection +x, and all of a suddenly the caster with low hit points in dragon form (including lower DEX) will be quite vulnerable to reflex-based saves (like fireball). It is not a big disadvantage, but it hurts in some instances...


Enough for any combat. Plus you can persist it.

But you need to get it up first (initiative, counter, aoo, grapple etc.). And (non-core, so DM-dependant) persist costs you two feats (extend, persist) and takes up a spell slot 4 levels higher. So available lvl 15& up, when the challenges and other spells/abilities have a similar power level.


Oh noes! If I turn into a dragon, I'll have a worse initiative! Gee, that's a tough decision.

Yeah, it is. If an opponent goes first at levels you turn into a dragon form powerful enough, you could very likely lose (or opponent uses initiative to escape).


So turn into a demon. Problem solved. You are really reaching to find some drawbacks that are only marginally meaningful.

On the contrary, mon cher, you are trying to find (most non-core, so DM-dependant) cheese around the rules or ignore the drawbacks. You cannot turn into a demon with polymorph, since it's an outsider. But I'll grant you that in dragon form you should be able to cast - I only said that some DMs may think twice about allowing that to wizards and druids and maybe even sorcerers (because a caster as a dragon with its talons and difficulty to reach into a tiny spell component pouch may have difficulty to cast as a wizard has learned from his young years).


Knowledge arcana.

Ah, that's correct! Dragon forms are known to wizards and sorcerers (but not automatically to druids!). I kept the dragon example for simplicity.


False, there are only a handful of relevant knowledge skills in the book (arcana, the planes, religion basically covers all of it) and all of them are wizard class skills.

To cover all creatures, you'll need:
- Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
- Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes)
- Local (humanoids, if your DM allowed the tiefling, but also elves, dwarves etc)
- Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin)
- Religion (undead)
- The planes (outsiders, elementals)
So that's six knowledge skills. Wizard has all as class skills, but druid and sorcerer only nature and arcane (respectively).
And for shapechange, you need to get those really high, since...
(from SRD): "...In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.
For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
So, a harsh DM could force a wizard to do quite a high DC to gain "familiarity" or even for polymorph know enough about that creatures' trait or ability (+5 DC for every info bit there!) to make a decision about which creature to turn into.
I would of course rule much lower DCs, but I'd also be a bit stricter with other parts of the morphing stuff.


Why wouldn't you? Besides, PAO is based on polymorph; PM is dismissible. Ergo,

Again wrong. Only the description of the effects of PaO is based on polymorph. PaO has its own duration entry "see text" which then explains exactly everything about the special duration, no "(D)" given there.
And why a caster would not want to be a dragon all the time? Come on, do I have to explain that to you? (I'll give you some hints: confined spaces in dungeons, social encounters in cities, the duke's ball, research in your laboratory etc.)


It can have the ADvantage of being even more intelligent.

Yes, but that should also include a personality change (one of the things where as a DM without RAW basis for either interpretation would be a bit stricter on roleplaying. The PHB describition of Intelligence stat gives only a vague idea. Remember the great OOTS sequence when Belkar is affected by an owl's wisdom spell...:smallbiggrin: ).


Yes, and a free heal spell each round is not at all overpowered, nosiree.

It is not a "heal" spell, but it works as resting, so it gets you back your hit points in level. At the level where shapechange is cast, there are so many powerful abilities out there that getting 17-20 hit points back per round (while the fighter or tarrasque does 300 damage to you in that same round, or attacks that do not affect your hit point put your abilities or life directly) is not really that great a deal. Plus, you have to change the form- possibly away from the form optimal for that kind of enounter. Have you ever played at those levels?


Oh dear, those are serious drawbacks.

Yep. Read the spell descriptions again and repent.:smallbiggrin:


Oh yeah, the DM can forbid individual monsters by DM fiat. Good thing there's a thousand monsters in the PHB.

Again this "fiat" thing...if there is no clear RAW given on the subject, then the DM has to decide it. By default, only the Monster Manual (core) monsters are assumed to populate the average campaign. From then on, it's DM's personal style, but no characters from level 1 onward will be able to know all creatures a out there (OK, the wizard might putting 1 rank into all the six knowledge skills above he would know all creatures by name, then would be able to learn usueful stuff with a DC 10 plus HD upwards). There is nothing wrong with it. Wrong is assuming the morph stuff is overpowered because you use it as you like and convince your DM that all is RAW and if he does not allow it he's nerfing you.


And apparently they failed. Big time.

Actually you failed proving that morphing spells are "overpowered". Good luck next time.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-18, 09:37 AM
the DM has decided to keep the school banned anyway, and I genuinly don't want to have my character defiled by ogres over the sake of a single spell.
thread closed

OK, a pity...anyhow, enjoy the campaign!

- Giaocmo

Wraithy
2007-07-18, 09:42 AM
yup, thanks anyway, and sorry for wasting your time

Thinker
2007-07-18, 10:22 AM
Sir Giacomo,
I feel that you are stating that nothing can be overpowered due to the ability of the DM to use Rule 0. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense because we purchased a game system. It is unrealistic to expect a system to be perfect as nothing is, but there is a point at which it becomes ridiculous. I can stomach the drowning rules, dying rules, etc as it is a relatively easy fix; it takes little time or effort to do so. Things on the scale of the Polymorph line require lots of time, effort, and work. In many cases it is easier to simply ban the line of spells, rather than work at improving them. A single spell that can completely overshadow a fellow player seems like a bad idea, just on premise. A single spell that can completely overshadow a fellow player with little to no drawback seems horrible.

My personal take on balance is that the gauge should not be against CR or PvP. The gauge should be the rest of the party. No one should feel useless for extended periods of time. I am not saying all characters should be able to perform equally well in any given role, but they should be able to shine in combat, in a social situation, and a non-combat scenario.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-18, 10:44 AM
Hi Thinker,

actually I try to avoid suggesting rule 0 as often as possible; I simply believe that the system has more balancing issues than is apparent at first glance. In this morphing case, outright banning the whole spells rob the game of a fascinating aspect that many associate with fantasy magic: the ability to turn into another (even fantastic) creature.
imo the rules provide plenty of stuff to do this without any balance issues; if someone needs to go to great lengths to come up with "overpowering stuff" (paging through hundreds of monsters, buying new expansions that are optional and not always as balanced as the core rules), then it shows to me that the system is quite robust.

In terms of effort: the morphing spells are probably one of the more complicated parts in the game since spell x is based on spell y with some change details etc. But trying to preserve the balance even within the rules simply because some players will always be better than others /devote more time to get technically more powerful characters is one of the arts of DMing. I wholeheartedly agree that you should always make certain that everyone has fun, which can (not necessarily always!) be impeded if some characters are way more powerful than others. And you should not shy away from looking up the rules to find cues about RAW and RAI restrictions to help you.

- Giacomo

NullAshton
2007-07-18, 10:53 AM
Dragons can wear cloaks and belts, according to the Dragonomicon.

Draz74
2007-07-18, 11:50 AM
I liked the suggestion that you could just balance these spells by boosting them up to a higher spell level. Alter Self as a 4th-Level spell doesn't seem very broken at all. By extension, I think Polymorph would make a very sensible 8th-Level spell (maybe even 7th). PAO and Shapechange would get bumped off the top of the spell levels -- they are epic-power spells. :smalltongue: