Eldritch Guardian build help

[warper]

Hey guys, I'm a long standing 3.5 player but am currently working on a pathfinder character. The DM said "This will an evil campaign... basically." Upon more questions he said its not necessarily evil, we will be mercenaries amidst a war. Able to choose between sides an such.

My idea eventually turned from a slayer to a sundering fighter to now a eldritch guardian. The idea is to spam dirty tricks between me and my imp to cripple foes. The build looks at cloak and dagger style as basically what I want to do.

The DM has approved of the mauler archtype with improved familiar and after heavy debating consular imp looks the best.

I made a comprehensive list of feats that look useful, but I'm just not used to pathfinder and don't have as much time anymore to comb through it:

-Mauler's Endurance
-Two-Weapon Fighting
-Combat Expertise
-Vital Strike
-Improved Dirty Trick
-Weapon Focus
-Cloak and Dagger Style
-Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge
-Cloak and Dagger Tactics
-Double Slice
-Coordinated Maneuvers
-Outflank
-Combat Reflexes *
-Paired Opportunists *
-Penetrating Strike
-Penetrating Strike, Greater
-Advanced Weapon Training (2)
-Advanced Armor Training (1)
-Leadership

Basically what I'm looking for is a build order/ other feats as good ideas. You'll see TWF for example, is that a good idea or should I look at something else and if so what? My thinking was that the build works best using a high dex for combat reflexes so might as well use the stats potential (+help my familiar). Please note my main goal it to be able to write down the order feats are takin in.

As a side note, is it me or are dirty tricks really op?

[Geddy2112]

A few notes- If you are going to go improved familiar, you will need the improved familiar feat. In most games leadership is outright banned as a feat, but if your DM allows it, then take it at level 7 no questions asked. You don't want combat expertise, take dirty fighting-it counts as dex 13, int 13, combat expertise and improved unarmed strike for prerequisites for feats, and it actually helps your build by giving you an additional +2 to a combat manuver when flanking.

I think that the kistune style is outright better than cloak and dagger and it comes online far faster. The cloak and dagger style lets you get a steal and attack in addition to dirty trick on an AoO, but comes online later. The kitsune tricks feat lets you get two conditions with one dirty trick, offsetting the need for cloak and dagger tactics.

If you can settle for a non consular imp, you get the regular version at level 7 vs 9. That said, the beast shape II might be why you want the consular, and the telepathy is always handy. Because your familiar's HP is based on yours, toughness is not a bad feat either.

Feat Order

Since you want to dirty trick, you want to get cloak and dagger online ASAP. Eldritch guardian takes two feats, slowing down your build a bit.
1: Dirty Fighting
3:Improved dirty trick
4:Kitsune Style
5:Kitsune Tricks
6:Kitsune Vengence
7:Quick dirty trick
8:Greater dirty trick
9:Improved familiar
10:outflank
11:Dirty Trick Master
12: combat reflexes*
13:paired opportunists*
14: coordinated maneuvers*
15:pack flanking*
16+: whatever

Feats with * can be in any order you want/need.

Once you hit level 16 on you are fully online and feats won't matter as much for dirty trick spamming. Dirty trick is not all that powerful as the debuffs are not all that devastating, and they can be removed by at worst, a standard action. This kind of build excels against solo big baddies, but is not so good against swarms of things. That said, you are a fighter and you can still beat face pretty hard even without dirty tricks. Now if your imp is doing them while you fight...then yeah that's good. The priority for dirty tricks is blinded>entangled>sickened>shaken. Never under any circumstance dazzle an enemy. Against casters and notably bards, deafened is a good choice stacked on entangled to stop casting.

You don't really have the luxury of going dex based-you can't afford to throw in weapon finesse or agile maneuvers and get the build online in a reasonable time frame. Likewise, you are proficient with heavy armor and don't need that much dex. Being strength based also lets you constantly do damage with your 2 handed weapon, which is your secondary role other than dirty tricking people.

[warper]

Thanks for the prompt response geddy! I missed actually putting in improved familiar.

That Kitsune style is perfect! Makes things much easier. That dirty fighting feat is great. When I read it it makes it seem like I'd be able to take master dirty fighting before improved... Am I reading that right? Just curious, improved is really valuable regardless.

Another thing, the difference between the two styles to me is that cloak and dagger gives free dirty tricks while Kitsune uses my actions. Since I'm not taking any feats really to improve my damage, it would seem that one I can train into cloak and dagger, I should replace Kitsune with it to maintain attacks for more damage output. Between me and my familiar we'd get plenty of free tricks off. I'm of course talking about high levels only.

Edit: With improved familiar can I not take it earlier and just get a new familiar once I'm high enough?

[Geddy2112]

I could see an argument for going kitsune style most of the game, and then retraining into cloak and dagger in one fell swoop at 16+.

You can take improved familiar as early as level 3, and yes, you can replace your familiar whenever you want. That said, replacing a familiar takes 1 week of going without it, then an 8 hour ritual that costs 200gp per level. If you take the improved familiar feat, you get it instantly and free. From the FAQ-
"Can I dismiss my familiar so I may select a new familiar?

This isn't addressed in the rules anywhere, but yes, you should be able to dismiss a familiar if you want to select a new one. However, you must still wait 1 week and pay 200 gp for the 8-hour ritual. Dismissing a familiar is ending a link between your soul and it, so it should probably take about an hour. The exception to the above is if you take the Improved Familiar feat, which allows you to immediately replace your familiar with the new familiar, at no cost or time required (it is assumed this occurs during whatever preparations you make while leveling up). Once dismissed, an animal familiar is just a normal animal of its type (a special familiar from the Improved Familiar feat reverts to a normal creature of its type). Whether or not it wants to remain with you is up to your GM and probably based on how you treated the creature while it was your familiar."

Dirty fighting will not let you qualify for master dirty trick early, it just removes some of the other prerequisites, namely the worthless combat expertise feat and needing dex or int. Also, power attack is the must have martial feat, so I would try to get it into the build somehow-if you can blind an enemy their lost dex bonus will often offset the power attack penalty.

On a 15 point buy before racials, I would shoot for these ability scores
Str:16
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:10
Wis:14
Cha:7

Season to taste

[warper]

Alright that makes sense.

Hmm, so theoretically I could take improved familiar at 3rd and then feat swap every odd level....:smalltongue: I don't think I'll do that though. It really depends on how much this character considers his familiar a tool. Requires some reading on the connection between the master and familiar bond.


On a 15 point buy before racials, I would shoot for these ability scores
Str:16
Dex:12
Con:12
Int:10
Wis:14
Cha:7

Season to taste

Yea luckily he's giving us more points, although I can't remember exactly how many, it's over 20. I'm not a huge fan of sevens. I also beefed up Int for a few skill points but again, taste.

[Geddy2112]

Yea luckily he's giving us more points, although I can't remember exactly how many, it's over 20. I'm not a huge fan of sevens. I also beefed up Int for a few skill points but again, taste.
If you have the point buy, might as well.
Eldritch guardian can actually make use of additional skill ranks, as you trade out two useless skills and one useful one for three very useful skills. You will want to max perception and UMD as well(ranks for your familiar to use a wand). Spellcraft is the next most valuable class skill you have, so 3 ranks per level minimum is handy, and if you have 1 more you can train each class skill over the course of the game/fill a missing party niche. Since you are going to be going the UMD route not dumping charisma is helpful, but a consular imp has a 14 so I would not have more than 14 in charisma. You could even back off on wisdom considering you get steel will over bravery, covering you from the worst will saves to fail.