Need help with a boss duo/trio!

[Xaroth]

So, my party is ECL 9 currently and will probably be level 10 by the time they reach this boss, but due to lucky drops they're honestly capable of taking on CR 11/12 monsters, and I've been having trouble with creating the boss(es) for the upcoming dungeon.

So far, the one staple I have is that the main enemy is an evil Knight, of some caliber. He doesn't necessarily have to be a 'Knight', but he wants to take on the party's Knight in one-on-one combat. He has a custom item that makes it so that if any member of the party other than the one he designates attacks him, they'll have a Demon/Devil spawned to attack them.

Naturally this could be easily abused, but the item doesn't belong to him, and as such it's going to be removed upon his defeat, if he IS defeated. Regardless, he's going to have the party's Knight designated and will want an honorable duel with him.

On top of that, I especially don't want the rest of my party to be sitting there twiddling their thumbs while the Knight faces off against the Evil Knight, and as such I've been dabbling with the idea of a Boneclaw Wizard (brought down to 4 Undead HD) to fight as well, but I have no idea where that could be going. And I don't know whether I should make an additional creature on top of that, since it'll essentially be a 1v1 and a 1v6 happening at the same time.

However, I'm not entirely sure how to build this Knight, or the other one/two creature(s), because I really really want these bosses to have co-ordination and difficulty, where the party has to come up with a strategy of some sort to defeat them.

The party as it stands currently is, as far back as my memory goes:

Human Knight
Human Knight's Dire Lion (scaled to level)
Elf Rogue/Assassin
Halfling(?) Archivist/Binder
Gnome Barbarian
Human(?) Cleric
Skeleton Wizard

I feel bad that I don't remember everyone exactly, but it's been a while since I've actually had to check what their races are, and due to the holidays people aren't around all the time for me to ask them what their characters are.

But yeah, I have no idea how the hell to tackle this. The campaign is centred around Hell being unleashed on Earth (thanks to the PCs), and as such I was thinking of it just being an Outsider/Undead themed boss fight, as the dungeon the bosses are going to be in itself is centred around Devils. Barghest for days, man.

Anybody got any tips, or pointers? Naturally I'm not planning to just completely and utterly slaughter the party, but I definitely want to give them a helluva fight.

Also, I'm probably going to be putting in flaws on my bosses for them sweet two extra feats.

[John Longarrow]

Can't say for the boss right now but there are a pair of monsters I've used that were really fun for a similar fight;

Grimweird MM3 summoning up Devils and the skeletal dragon out of Draconomicon.

NOTE: I did boost the skeletal dragon a bit by applying 4 of the corpsecrafter feats to its creation. Made it stronger, faster, and slightly harder to hit. With 209 HPs it is capable of lasting a couple rounds against most parties and it can deal about 80 points of damage a round easily (plus up to another 6d6 of cold) in addition to its frightful presence and SR. Really nice damage sponge.

For the evil knight, have you decided on a race yet? If you make them an outsider one of the most fun things to do is let them have alter self and change into a Dwarven Ancestor. +18 NA on a large form makes for a really tough melee brute.

[Xaroth]

Can't say for the boss right now but there are a pair of monsters I've used that were really fun for a similar fight;

Grimweird MM3 summoning up Devils and the skeletal dragon out of Draconomicon.

NOTE: I did boost the skeletal dragon a bit by applying 4 of the corpsecrafter feats to its creation. Made it stronger, faster, and slightly harder to hit. With 209 HPs it is capable of lasting a couple rounds against most parties and it can deal about 80 points of damage a round easily (plus up to another 6d6 of cold) in addition to its frightful presence and SR. Really nice damage sponge.

For the evil knight, have you decided on a race yet? If you make them an outsider one of the most fun things to do is let them have alter self and change into a Dwarven Ancestor. +18 NA on a large form makes for a really tough melee brute.

I haven't decided on a race yet, no. But that Grimweird idea sounds really good!

I dunno what race to have...maybe a templated Human, I could possibly even give him Demon Armor?

[John Longarrow]

For your BBEG,
First 4 levels as Bard. This gets you Alter Self.
Next 4 levels as Crusader (Initiator level starts at 3, goes up to 6, so you can load up on +damage & overcome DR maneuvers early)
Level 9 is one level into Warblade (grab Iron Heart Surge).

Base race though should be something fun and in keeping with having Devils be an enemy. I'd recommend Bladeling from MM 2.

[Xaroth]

For your BBEG,
First 4 levels as Bard. This gets you Alter Self.
Next 4 levels as Crusader (Initiator level starts at 3, goes up to 6, so you can load up on +damage & overcome DR maneuvers early)
Level 9 is one level into Warblade (grab Iron Heart Surge).

Base race though should be something fun and in keeping with having Devils be an enemy. I'd recommend Bladeling from MM 2.

Hm...that actually sounds really good, he could even buff himself. What's this Dwarven Ancestor thing you were talking about? And do you have any ideas for feats?

And what about the other two? I was considering a Cloistered Cleric/Divine Oracle, though I honestly don't remember what that combo does any more.

[John Longarrow]

Dwarf Ancestor is a 5HD outsider from MM IV page 52. It is a great "Surprise" form for an outsider to adopt if the party is not expecting it. Since its by Alter Self it can be dispelled.

When I used it on my party they were facing off against a fallen Protectar (Miniatures Handbook page 66) advanced to 4hd with two level of sorcerer and 4 of Abjurant Champion. It had a sick AC of 40 when buffed (Mage Armor=4, Shield spell = 8, NA 18, +1 Dex, -1 size) and used a sizing, morphing +1 greatclub with greater mighty wallop on it. Party caster kept dropping its buffs then it would recast them (defensively).

For the other two bosses Grimweird is a CR 11 that can really keep a party guessing and the skeletal dragon should slow down 6 characters for a round or two. By the book the dragon is a CR 7 but with Corps Crafter, Nimble Bones, Harden Flesh, and Deadly Chill it is a lot closer to a CR 9.

If the Grimweird has a few rounds to prepare it can have 2d3 bearded devils out ready for a fight. If the party shows up and the first thing to happen is they get charged by the dragon followed by having devils teleport in to provide a protective screen your party should run into LOTS of problems before your BBEG comes in to challenge their knight to single combat.

Best part is the Grimweird can toss out a summons every 5 rounds.

[Xaroth]

Dwarf Ancestor is a 5HD outsider from MM IV page 52. It is a great "Surprise" form for an outsider to adopt if the party is not expecting it. Since its by Alter Self it can be dispelled.

When I used it on my party they were facing off against a fallen Protectar (Miniatures Handbook page 66) advanced to 4hd with two level of sorcerer and 4 of Abjurant Champion. It had a sick AC of 40 when buffed (Mage Armor=4, Shield spell = 8, NA 18, +1 Dex, -1 size) and used a sizing, morphing +1 greatclub with greater mighty wallop on it. Party caster kept dropping its buffs then it would recast them (defensively).

For the other two bosses Grimweird is a CR 11 that can really keep a party guessing and the skeletal dragon should slow down 6 characters for a round or two. By the book the dragon is a CR 7 but with Corps Crafter, Nimble Bones, Harden Flesh, and Deadly Chill it is a lot closer to a CR 9.

If the Grimweird has a few rounds to prepare it can have 2d3 bearded devils out ready for a fight. If the party shows up and the first thing to happen is they get charged by the dragon followed by having devils teleport in to provide a protective screen your party should run into LOTS of problems before your BBEG comes in to challenge their knight to single combat.

Best part is the Grimweird can toss out a summons every 5 rounds.

This actually sounds incredible. I think I'm gonna follow this idea, thank you!

D'you think it'll be a bad idea to give the Bladeling armor? Or would it be a good idea? I'm not entirely sure. I was thinking of going for about 32-36 AC?

[GreyBlack]

Well, if you're looking at making a difficult Party vs Duo scenario, why not take the Ornstein and Smough approach?

Essentially, the whole concept is you take two warriors each with a significantly different specialty. Design the duo such that, if one dies, it immediately fully heals the other and gives it a power boost in some way (Contingency spells help well if your players call bullpoppy. You can also flavor it as a part of their knightly order or sacrament or something to that effect).

In this example, Ornstein is a fast dervish of sorts, darting in and out of combat just quickly enough to deal some damage, but never a huge amount. By comparison, Smough is a huge burly warrior dude who, if you screw up, will flatten you in one to two strikes. The party will have to manage between the two to kill one, probably splitting their party in some way, with ranged/magic taking on Ornstein, and tanky types taking on Smough.

When one of them falls, the other receives a power up. If the party manages to kill Ornstein first, maybe let Smough take on some of that dervish type movement, making him now a scary giant who can dart in and out of combat. If Smough dies first, Ornstein gets a massive strength buff, which will let him do that much more damage with his dervish darting.

You can apply this to all sorts of combinations (for example, make it a trio who, each time one dies, their power is absorbed by the others, meaning that by the end you're facing a single, incredibly powered boss), but that's definitely an approach you can take for your party.

[Xaroth]

Well, if you're looking at making a difficult Party vs Duo scenario, why not take the Ornstein and Smough approach?

Essentially, the whole concept is you take two warriors each with a significantly different specialty. Design the duo such that, if one dies, it immediately fully heals the other and gives it a power boost in some way (Contingency spells help well if your players call bullpoppy. You can also flavor it as a part of their knightly order or sacrament or something to that effect).

In this example, Ornstein is a fast dervish of sorts, darting in and out of combat just quickly enough to deal some damage, but never a huge amount. By comparison, Smough is a huge burly warrior dude who, if you screw up, will flatten you in one to two strikes. The party will have to manage between the two to kill one, probably splitting their party in some way, with ranged/magic taking on Ornstein, and tanky types taking on Smough.

When one of them falls, the other receives a power up. If the party manages to kill Ornstein first, maybe let Smough take on some of that dervish type movement, making him now a scary giant who can dart in and out of combat. If Smough dies first, Ornstein gets a massive strength buff, which will let him do that much more damage with his dervish darting.

You can apply this to all sorts of combinations (for example, make it a trio who, each time one dies, their power is absorbed by the others, meaning that by the end you're facing a single, incredibly powered boss), but that's definitely an approach you can take for your party.

I was considering that, because O&S is basically the staple "This pair is gonna dunk you" boss battle now. But the thing is, if I'm gonna make an O&S type of battle, I'm basically gonna make O&S, honestly. I love them to bits but it'll be hell.

I'm gonna add that to my VG characters thread, now...

But I think I'll go with John Longarrow's approach for the moment. I don't know what Crusader maneuvers to get though, for the knight. And I also don't know what base dragon to use for the Skeletal Dragon.

[Xaroth]

What Crusader maneuvers should I take?

[John Longarrow]

For the bladeling, if they are using Alter Self to hit a high AC you don't really need armor. Building off of Bard instead of Sorcerer/Wizard does mean you are a little more limited in protective spells how ever it should fit well with your target AC. Give them an eternal wand of either Mage Armor or Greater Mage Armor.

Bladeling gets a racial +2 to dex, so having your "Knight" run around with an 18 dex isn't strange. So working backward from your target AC (say 36) we get 18 NA, -1 size, +4 dex and we need either mage armor for +4 or greater mage armor for +6. In your case since 36 was the highest you wanted I'd go with an eternal wand of Mage Armor for a total AC of 35 without armor. This also means your tanking knight drops to an AC of 18 (it has 4 NA) if its buffs drop. This means the party should be tossing a dispel magic to make him easier to hit (and you can give in combat clues to this).

For maneuvers, I'd grab the 2nds that overcome DR and do extra damge plus ones for self healing. He's going to get 5 2nds and one 3rd.

Devoted Spirit
-Crusaders strike
-Foe Hammer

Stone Dragon
-Mountain Hammer

White Raven
-Tactical Strike

Its your one third level that you need to think about.
Devoted Spirit give revitalizing strike (quick healing), Stone Dragon gives Bone Crusher (+4d6 and easier to confirm crits) , but White Raven gives White Raven Tactics (full extra set of actions for one ally). Taking White Raven Tactics means the dragon can get into the parties face, boss goes, then dragon goes again. If the dragon started with a charge and bite routine, this will probably drop a lvl 9 character.

Off of the single level dip in Warblade, I'd go with both Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge. Wall of Blades is thematically great for one on one duals, even if he's not using it while totally tanked.

[Thurbane]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for in this encounter, but a trio of Elemental Mages (MMV p.48) plays well together. EL 14 if you have one of each type; EL 11 if you have three Ken-Kuni.

[Xaroth]

Hm...thanks for the input Thurbane, I might look into that later. For now though uh, John, I'm assuming that for my 2nds, I'll be swapping out my 1st levels?

Also, I have no idea what I could take as feats, aside from Eschew Materials at first level.

[John Longarrow]

Because the build I put up has an initiator level of 3 when they take their first level in crusader, they don't have any 1st level maneuvers.

Feats, Power Attack comes to mind. Depends on what stats you want to give it. More important, how do you want it to fight when the PCs get in its face? Is this supposed to be a sneaky combatant who's going to sucker the party into an ambush? Are they a straight up "Hit them till they fall" kinda villain? Are you planning on them having followers/minions that they throw into the fight first?

For their feats I'd say it is dependent on HOW they work as a BBEG. From there where you want to put their feats should be easier.

[Xaroth]

Because the build I put up has an initiator level of 3 when they take their first level in crusader, they don't have any 1st level maneuvers.

Feats, Power Attack comes to mind. Depends on what stats you want to give it. More important, how do you want it to fight when the PCs get in its face? Is this supposed to be a sneaky combatant who's going to sucker the party into an ambush? Are they a straight up "Hit them till they fall" kinda villain? Are you planning on them having followers/minions that they throw into the fight first?

For their feats I'd say it is dependent on HOW they work as a BBEG. From there where you want to put their feats should be easier.

This is going to be a boss that takes on one party member solo, the Knight. He's weaker than the Knight, and doesn't have as powerful a weapon - the Knight has a Weapon of Legacy - but he's going to have a special item that means he can designate a foe, and any time somebody that isn't that foe attacks him, they get a devil summoned to fight them.

They're going to be warned of this, naturally.

As for the stats, the stats of the Bard/Crusader/Warblade are currently as follows:


STR - 16
DEX - 16
CON - 16
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 18

I'm considering also having him bestow buffs upon his designated foe. This is the kind of opponent who is insistent on fighting somebody one-on-one, for better or for worse, and will not tolerate outside interference. Though, I could probably handle this in the form of spell-like abilities, or EX abilities.

Also, could I ask for input on the spells I chose?

Bard Spells(4/3/1 per day):
Ghostsong(0)
Detect Ghost(0)
Flare(0)
Light(0)
Mage Hand(0)
Percussion(0)
Hideous Laughter(1)
Sorrow(1)
Lullaby(1)
Alter Self(2)
War Cry(2)

[John Longarrow]

Notes on spells:

Warcry is a 3rd level Bard spell. Bladeweave from Complete Adventurer may be a good replacement. This lets you get a free touch attach each round. If they fail a will save they are dazed for one round.

For firsts, Grease is always a good spell to have. Same with Expeditious Retreat since the former can really mess up an enemy one on one and the later is extra movement, always a benefit when trying to keep an enemy in combat. Note: Lullaby is a level 0 spell, not 1st.

For feats, if you swap Int and Wis they can grab Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Give your BBEG a tripping weapon, alter form to Large, and have at it! Toss in Power Attack and you've got one feat left for flavor.

[Xaroth]

Notes on spells:

Warcry is a 3rd level Bard spell. Bladeweave from Complete Adventurer may be a good replacement. This lets you get a free touch attach each round. If they fail a will save they are dazed for one round.

For firsts, Grease is always a good spell to have. Same with Expeditious Retreat since the former can really mess up an enemy one on one and the later is extra movement, always a benefit when trying to keep an enemy in combat. Note: Lullaby is a level 0 spell, not 1st.

For feats, if you swap Int and Wis they can grab Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Give your BBEG a tripping weapon, alter form to Large, and have at it! Toss in Power Attack and you've got one feat left for flavor.

Hm...for reasons pertaining to the character himself, I would prefer not to use Tripping. I was honestly considering just using a regular weapon, such as a Longsword or a Greataxe, along with a shield, since the Knight himself has a shield.

And thanks for letting me know about those spells, I didn't realise :P

[John Longarrow]

So your BBEG is more of a "Stand and hit" kinda guy rather than "Use interesting combat tricks"?

In that case weapon focus (Big hittie thing) would make sense if you don't have any other feat in mind. Combat reflexes may work to, along with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (big hittie thing) for a fun big hittie thing. :D

[Xaroth]

So your BBEG is more of a "Stand and hit" kinda guy rather than "Use interesting combat tricks"?

In that case weapon focus (Big hittie thing) would make sense if you don't have any other feat in mind. Combat reflexes may work to, along with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (big hittie thing) for a fun big hittie thing. :D

Hm, I guess so, heh. Thanks again, Longarrow.

[John Longarrow]

Of course, being a bard I'd have your BBEG start the fight with a rousing chant to boost the morale of his minions. Party sees these lesser beings and moves in to fight. BBEG isn't seen yet, but his chant is heard, and is taken up by his minions...

"Ex Ter Mi Nate... Ex Ter Mi NATE.. EX TER MI NATE"

[Xaroth]

Of course, being a bard I'd have your BBEG start the fight with a rousing chant to boost the morale of his minions. Party sees these lesser beings and moves in to fight. BBEG isn't seen yet, but his chant is heard, and is taken up by his minions...

"Ex Ter Mi Nate... Ex Ter Mi NATE.. EX TER MI NATE"

Well, I'm going with your idea, with the Skeletal Dragon and the...other thing. So I'm not sure whether I'll do that or not.