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Enzario
2007-07-17, 03:28 PM
I was thinking of creating an openly gay character for my next campaign, and I was wondering what sort of reaction I would get. In my gaming group, people might feel a bit awkward, but they wouldn't really mind. But in other groups, this character might not be as acceptable. Any comments on characters with "alternate" sexualities? Feel free to speak your mind, but due to the nature of this topic I would really like it if no one did any flaming (good way to get this thread shut down fast). Any thoughts?

rollfrenzy
2007-07-17, 03:30 PM
Hey as long as your group is cool with it, have fun. If it'll make them uncomfortable, then you should talk to them first.

tainsouvra
2007-07-17, 03:30 PM
Really, just one question sums it up for me...why?

I don't see a reason to introduce it into the game except to draw reactions, which is suspiciously like trolling your own group. I might be missing something, though, so I ask you...

Why do you want to do this?

FireSpark
2007-07-17, 03:31 PM
The reaction to your character (and your roleplaying of said character) is wholly dependent upon the group you play with. My group? We wouldn't bat an eye. Namely becasue half our group is gay. (some to a fault, I'm looking at you, Steven :smallamused:)

So if your friends have no problem with someone who is gay, then why would they have a problem with someone pretending to be gay? Again, this is probably something only you or your game group will know the answer to.

Damionte
2007-07-17, 03:38 PM
I'd have to say that this is a question you should probabl already know the answer too. You'll have to know your friends. At the same time, in and out of game folks have had a hard time coming out and trusting that thier friends will be accepting. Not to say that you are of course, but you're going to get the same reaction in and out of game from your friends if you play this character. I doubt any of them are strong enough actors to hide thier feelings in character. They'll treat the character and you the same way. as if you were trying to tell them soemthing. How they deal with that depends on them and thier individual views.

PaladinBoy
2007-07-17, 03:38 PM
Seems like an odd thing to do, but you can be literally anyone you want in a role playing game. The trick is to make sure that your group is fine with it. If they are, then I think you'll have some interesting role playing. If they aren't, the best you can hope for is that the game will be no fun. Worst case, you'll rip the group apart and ruin friendships.

So be careful.

Green Bean
2007-07-17, 03:40 PM
My advice for any potentially controversial player characteristic is to make sure that the guy has other things going for him. A person isn't just a sexuality; mix it up because otherwise it'll quickly become awkward.

Ideally, you want to avoid, "This is Vestyres, flaming queen," and aim for, "This is Vestyreys, plainsman of the north and a skilled swordsman. He seeks to reclaim a great artifact of his people, which was stolen by the very necromancer who slew his family. But FYI, he rolls his encounters on a different table, if you catch my drift."

lukelightning
2007-07-17, 03:41 PM
Most people will say it's fine as long as you don't overdo it and assume that you need to do gay stereotypes in order to make your character gay.

In most games I've played the PCs' sexual orientations never really mattered, because sex and romance never came up, aside from some innuendos about going to the brothel, which any orientation could do (sex, of course, occurs "off camera").

I'm gay myself but have never played a gay character, though my current character is a changeling so he could be anything. It'll come in handy if he has to seduce the captain of the guards. "Is it hot in here...or is it just me?" "Sorry, dude, I'm a lesbian" *shapechange* "What a coincidence, so am I!"

....
2007-07-17, 03:42 PM
There's no reason to do this.

You'll spend all you're time making sure everyone remembers how gay you are, and they'll get annoyed.

Do you ever feel the need to say, "Hey, guys, I'm straight?" Of course not. Sex dosn't come into any regular D&D game. The only times its mentioned are in the BoEF, maybe encounters with Succubi/Inccubi, or if you're character is particularly sexual. So I supposed maybe if you were a gay swashbucker you'd have an excuse.

Otherwise it just seems like you want attention from the other gamers, negative or otherwise.

Erom
2007-07-17, 03:48 PM
I've played with a gay player in my group, who plays gay characters for the same reason the rest of us play straight characters- it's just easier to roleplay.

That said, we're mostly rollplayers, and sex always happens far "off camera", so it hardly matters who is involved.

SoulCatcher78
2007-07-17, 03:50 PM
I have to agree with some of the other posters and add my vote to the "why" side of things. Will it make the game more enjoyable or are you attempting to provoke a reaction? Either way, I'd bring the idea up with the other players to see what the comfort level will be with the whole idea.

If the point is to exploit a stereotype, you might be suprised who gets offended at the gaming table...let that run around your brain a couple of times before doing it.

lukelightning
2007-07-17, 03:50 PM
Otherwise it just seems like you want attention from the other gamers, negative or otherwise.

D&D has plenty of sexual references... there are always comments about spending your gp on wenches and flirting with barmaids and all that. So what's wrong with Walvin Stronghammer spending his gp on gigiloes and flirting with guys?

Heck, D&D is filled with bestiality and you're going to get bent out of shape over a gay adventurer? Why is it ok for some human to have sex with a dragon but not with someone of their same species?

Alleine
2007-07-17, 03:55 PM
I don't see why you shouldn't. I know my group wouldn't be comfortable with it, but I don't think that should be the issue. It ought to be the characters that are uncomfortable. I think it'd be very interesting to roleplay with, especially if he hit on some of the other PC's, not too much though. You might get funny/painful reactions.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-17, 03:56 PM
Really, just one question sums it up for me...why?

I don't see a reason to introduce it into the game except to draw reactions, which is suspiciously like trolling your own group. I might be missing something, though, so I ask you...

Why do you want to do this?


To roleplay an interesting character? Because that's the character concept? Playing a gay character or a character of a gender other than your own doesn't have to be for OoC reasons.

If it is for OoC reasons, you probably shouldn't be doing it (OoC and IC issues shouldn't be mixed this way, no matter what the issue, it just isn't a good idea). It probably also shouldn't take much spotlight time or be one of the character's most noticable traits (see h_v's post). That said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it unless someone in the group finds it objectionable. Especially in a group that focuses on characters and roleplaying, I would think. Beer and prezels D&D? Not so much, but it still all depends on your group.


One think that comes to mind for this situation that might recude the uncomfortable factor somewhat, is to avoid using "I" when describing what your character does, or doing too much acting. Some players may be made more uncomfortable if you and your character aren't clearly seperate entities (this also applies in a number of other situations).

elliott20
2007-07-17, 03:57 PM
D&D has plenty of sexual references... there are always comments about spending your gp on wenches and flirting with barmaids and all that. So what's wrong with Walvin Stronghammer spending his gp on gigiloes and flirting with guys?

wow, even his name "stronghammer" sounds like an innuendo to me now. I'm a terrible man.

As for actually playing a gay character, well, I guess it depends on your approach.

In most games I play, sexuality is rarely a topic of discussion. Most of the time, characters are pretty much asexual. So, really, in a game like that a gay character is pretty pointless.

On the other hand, in some of the more mature games I've played where sex and irrationality are all possible motivations, yeah, a gay character might actually have some possibilities.

The thing is though, it also depends on how you do it. If you're basically playing up the gay stereotypes and do so obnoxiously, well, you might as well have play a character with a whistle thing and blow a whistle through the entire session. In the end, if your character has a lot of other interesting traits, but also just happens to be gay, awesome. But if he's gay FIRST and then you develop the rest of him, that's just pointless.

PaladinBoy
2007-07-17, 03:58 PM
D&D has plenty of sexual references... there are always comments about spending your gp on wenches and flirting with barmaids and all that. So what's wrong with Walvin Stronghammer spending his gp on gigiloes and flirting with guys?

I'd have to second that. Our group is pretty perverted. It might unnerve me a little to see their behavior focused on guys instead of girls, but so long as they kept my character out of it, it'd just be another aspect of their characters.

-Cor-
2007-07-17, 03:59 PM
My advice, make it part of what your character is. Not, 'who' your character is.

In other words, don't make your character The Gay Sorcerer, make them the Sorcerer of the Sleight Hand, Conjurer of Conjurers, a roving trickster who gambles big and prefers the company of their own sex.

<shrug>

Role-playing is what the game is all about for me...

Jayabalard
2007-07-17, 03:59 PM
personally, I don't see it any different than "I'm thinking of playing a tall character" ... don't treat it any differently, and I don't see where you could have a problem, unless you have some extremely homophobic people in your group.

Off-topic: this reminds me of:
I’d like to mention something about language, there are a couple of terms being used a lot these days by guilty white liberals. The first is “Happens to be” ‘He happens to be black’ “I have a friend, who happens to be black” like it’s a #%[email protected] accident ya know. Happens to be black? Yes, he happens to be black. He has two black parents? Oh yes, yes he did. And they #%[email protected]? Oh indeed they did. So where does the surprise part come in? I’d think it’d be more unusual if he just happened to be scandinavian.

The other term is openly. “He’s openly gay” that’s the only minority they use that for. You wouldn’t say someone is openly black well maybe James Brown. Or Louis Farrakhan, Louis Farrakhan is openly black. Colin Powell is not openly black, Colin Powell is openly white, he just happens to be black.

Seatbelt
2007-07-17, 04:04 PM
Keep in mind that whenever you flirt with an NPC (not just "I hit on the barmaid, but actial IC dialogue) you are really just flirting with the DM. Whenever my PCs try to hit on an important NPC, I remind them that they can do anything they want and I will accomodate them, but it still boils down to both of us pretending one of us is a girl, and attracted to the other. Which wierds them out and they stop. :P

horseboy
2007-07-17, 04:10 PM
I fall under the "mefh" camp. It's not like it comes up that often, but could be an interesting hook (if you'll excuse the term)
How would I deal with it? Well, that would depend on the setting really. In a typical fantasy setting, depending on my character it would depend on anything from turning you in to the church for burning at the stake, to blackmailing you with it. In a modern to post modern setting I'd be more inclined to go "Okay, but watch the TMI level, please."
As a DM I'd probably want you to talk it over with me in private. Basically so I could find out if you were wanting to explore something different or to see if you are just looking for some attention whoring. Then it would be dealt with appropriately.

Diggorian
2007-07-17, 04:12 PM
Keep in mind that whenever you flirt with an NPC (not just "I hit on the barmaid, but actial IC dialogue) you are really just flirting with the DM.

Very true. In those instances I switch to third person narration to avoid the weirdness.

I've made gay NPCs before. The players reacted surprised but it faded when they didnt do anything stereotypical. I've often portrayed elves as sexually ambiguous. It was just a character trait, but not defining. Playing a character that way really minimizes any tension.

If you want be stereotypical, then this may raise issues.

Jayabalard, great quote. :smallamused:

Mordokai
2007-07-17, 04:16 PM
Go for it. I made a gay(lesbian actually) character, and I'm soon going to try her out. The only difference is that our group is playing d20M while yours seems to be on D&D. It makes little difference.

My DM sid it's fine with him. The only problem is that he put a "but" in there. Every action our character performs has to be performed by players. Seeing there are only male players in our group, kissing is out of question :smallbiggrin: But I'm secure enought in my masculinity that a few winks to my friends doesn't bother me, and they are good enought at taking that too :smallsmile: So if you want to play gay, I say, go for it and have fun!

The_Werebear
2007-07-17, 04:18 PM
I have to second (third, fourth?) the thought that, so long as you don't make it the only thing your character about, there is no problem with it.

Winterwind
2007-07-17, 04:21 PM
I don't quite understand the need for the question.

How is roleplaying a gay character different from roleplaying a straight character?

As many people here have pointed out, reducing a character to his sexuality would be bad. Also roleplaying it too explicitely, if the GM or some of the players felt uncomfortable with it.
But this includes any character, not only a gay one.

nerulean
2007-07-17, 04:21 PM
Personally, I'd say go for it. Then again, I'm well aware of the fact that my group is a very open-minded group from one of the most open-minded demographics there is, so that may well be colouring my opinion.

In a perfect society, you would be able to play a character who was gay just like you can play a character who's black or short or ginger or whatever other negative social groupings have been illogically made over the centuries. Sadly, the world doesn't work like that, and people have topics that don't sit right with them.

If you've got someone who would be uncomfortable with it to the point where it would affect the fun they're having in the game, then don't do it. D&D is a cooperative game that involves everyone working together for mutual entertainment, and if something you choose to play is obviously affecting the fun someone else is having, common courtesy should lead you to do something else, just the same as you'd ask an idiot who constantly puts the party in ridiculous danger to play something different.

Lemur
2007-07-17, 04:29 PM
Like others have said, this is something you should discuss with your group more than with random people on the Internet. Also, I have to second what h_v said. The character's sexuality should just be another one of his personality traits, and not dominate his identity.

Fhaolan
2007-07-17, 04:31 PM
In D&D playing specific genders and orientations is usually so much irrelevance. It's a rare D&D game where sexuality actually makes any difference whatsoever.

Now, saying that, I do play characters with different gender identities, but I don't start with the gender identity as a driving force. Instead I try to figure out a personality for a character, and then I try to think of people I know with similar personality traits. Gender identity follows along with that.

For example: One character I was building for a Sci-Fi game was to be on the short side, physically fit, acrobatic, a bit silly and very outgoing. I happened to have a friend that matched that perfectly. He also happened to be an exotic dancer, and used to strip in gay bars for a living. So, I modeled this character after him. (He found it funny, especially when he found out about some of the details I added to the character such as tatoos and body piercings.) The character was gay, but it was the personality that drove it, not because I wanted to play a gay character.

Now, the rest of the gaming group found it hilarious, because they all knew the guy I used as a model, so there was no problem there. However, there are lots of people who have serious problems with people playing characters of differring gender identities. Mainly because the player has no skill whatsoever in portraying different genders, and it all comes off as freaky, disturbing, and an unbalanced form of wish fullfillment. (See the online comic Goblins, in some of the early strips for a PC party with exactly this issue with guys playing female drow. I've been at conventions and ended up in gaming groups pretty much precisely like that. Some day I'll have surgery to remove the memories.)

Talya
2007-07-17, 04:35 PM
Much of corolinth's campaign that I'm playing in is sexual in nature, despite most of the characters being traditional. (My heartwarder of Sune revels in it, however.) See, one of our big antagonist-benefactors (she alternates) is an arch-succubus who rules an abyssal layer. You can't put succubi in a game without sexual references, and the "Writhing Layer" of the abyss that she rules is the most depraved, kinky, and utterly hedonistic place that's ever been conceived of.

On the other side of the coin, the faiths of Sune, Sharess, Eilistraee, and Mielikki all play major factors in the campaign, and they aren't exactly prudish themselves.

Starsinger
2007-07-17, 04:46 PM
As a homosexual who frequently plays gay characters, I have to say, be careful. You'll be surprised how many people people claim to be tolerant to your face, and then use the veil of being IC to act like total jerks to a gay character. And even if they are just doing it because it's part of their character, It's like racism, if one of the other PCs is an Orc, you don't play a character who hates Orcs to the point of random violence, it's just not cricket.

Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.

Aurion
2007-07-17, 05:05 PM
Its been said, but it bears yet another repeating, it definitely depends on your group, and your dm because it may require a slight change in some mechanics. I play with a gay guy who often plays as gay character or female characters so he can hit on all of the male character in the party, and we are all cool with it because we know him and are mature enough to be comfortable with our own sexualities. If you're playing with immature people then you may encounter some issues with the character.

SilverClawShift
2007-07-17, 05:10 PM
The only question I would have is wether or not sexuality in your games even matters? If your group doesn't acknowledge sexuality to begin with, playing a gay character will either have very little impact, or will turn your character into a bit of a freakshow, not just because they have a different orientation, but because they have sexuality to BEGIN with.
If sex comes up in your group, then yeah, go for it, why not? If it'll freak the other players out though, it's something you need to consider before you do it.

Also, remember that ANY character trait of ANY kind is something that'll give the DM a way to mess with you. It's what the DM does. Our group's seen female sorcerers pelted with stones by small ignorant villages, or that female-only group of paladins that were extremly ("righteously") offended that one of our male party members dared to use the title of 'paladin'. Having something noteworthy about your character is a hook for the DM to latch onto. Don't be shocked or offended when they take the bait.

Sexuality comes up in my own groups games, but we avoid it when playing with other people, unless we know how they'll react to it.

Rama_Lei
2007-07-17, 05:14 PM
Make sure he's not a caricature, and I'm sure it'll be fine. Also, what class?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-17, 05:43 PM
Exactly. Make sure he's not a caricature, and it'll be fine. (Although it WOULD be fun to play an elven flaming-drag-queen "sorceress" at some point. I keep meaning to do it. So, rather, make sure that he's not *just* a caricature.)

As for the people asking "why"--why the heck not? Nobody asks questions when someone wants to play an elf, or a dwarf, or a character who used to be a baker, or anything else--why is sexual orientation important? And it IS nice to see less heteronormative parties occasionally, for those of us who don't swing the usual way.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-17, 05:46 PM
Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.


:smallbiggrin: Good one. I would think that all characters would be vulnerable to Succubi, though some characters might find this extremely uncomfortable if they discovered it firsthand. However, besides their SLAs and other abilities, a Succubus isn't automatically irrisistable anyway, so now we're getting into the realm of magic. As for Nymphs... their ability affects such creatures as Gnolls and Lizardfolk, which makes me wonder why they're even limited to affecting humanoids only.


I've yet to play a bi- or homesexual character myself, as a player or a DM (villains excluded), but that's mostly because I forget about it whenever I'm actually coming up with a character. (Which reminds me, I also forget that dwarves exist when creating characters... In FR.:smallannoyed:) My games tend to include a lot of romantic "sub"plots (and some particularly depraved villains), so it would inevitably come up and would probably get considerable spotlight time. Nobody in my group would mind, but many of the characters would be remarkably comfortable with it (which in my group translates into fun roleplaying, which makes it all the more baffling that I haven't done it yet).

Actually, now that I think about it, one of my players does have a couple of characters who qualify... depending on who you ask. One character is actually two unfortunate characters of differant genders stuck in the same body. Awwwwkward. The other is a character who's got designs on him/her. The personality she's fallen for is a guy... but the body he's stuck in isn't, and she couldn't care less. Of course, the other inhabitant of 'his' body does care (to say nothing of the gender-switch awkwardness itself), so the relationship isn't likely to develop very far.




On a related subject... Another one that player's (many) characters is a Psychotic CE Halfling, whose "type" involves Good-Aligned "Tallfolk", and excludes all halflings or gnomes. And she can never understand why it never works out. I'm fairly certain that almost any gay character would have a better chance at romance than she does...

SilverClawShift
2007-07-17, 05:49 PM
Although it WOULD be fun to play an elven flaming-drag-queen "sorceress" at some point.

The total opposite would be interesting too. Play a bard, but when he's not performing, he's completely low-key and calm and really no nonsense. His peers are 'flamboyant' (to put it lightly) guys who wear poofy pink shirts and giant purple hats with blue feathers, and dance and skip and sing, but THEY'RE the straight ones.

tainsouvra
2007-07-17, 05:56 PM
To roleplay an interesting character? Because that's the character concept? Playing a gay character or a character of a gender other than your own doesn't have to be for OoC reasons.

If it is for OoC reasons, you probably shouldn't be doing it (OoC and IC issues shouldn't be mixed this way, no matter what the issue, it just isn't a good idea). I disagree for the simple reason that there are no IC reasons to make a particular character. A player walks in the room with a concept, arrived at before the character existed, and makes a set of stats to go along with it. That's Out of Character...the character doesn't exist yet, so you can't be In.

I have no issues with people playing any random thing, or with players having their own diversity--but if you have to ask a group of strangers what they think your group's reaction will be, then it's pretty clear that the reason is one of a very few options, none of which revolve around the character itself. Most likely, it's strictly for that reaction, although attempting to make a point is also a popular reason for that question to come up.

Additionally, the question was about making a gay character, not about a character he had made and was thinking of playing as gay. This is relevant simply because that choice of language (or order of creation) reveals an order of priorities--generally, when someone says "gay character" they're thinking mostly of the "gay" part, not the "character" part. Stereotyping, which amusingly tends to offend the actually-gay players more than the "homophobic" ones, is the usual result.

I will not, however, claim to know every person's reasons for everything they do, however, which is why I asked the OP...

"Why?"

The answer is likely to indicate why such a character should never see his first initiative roll, but you never know.

AmberVael
2007-07-17, 05:57 PM
Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.
I may just be plain wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Succubus stats, at least, were meant to be exactly the same as the Incubus stats, so all you'd have to do is change the gender.
*shrug*
And I'd say that if you can magically attract people, you can magically attract people. Doesn't matter what they would normally do, it matters what the magic has told them to do.

SurlySeraph
2007-07-17, 06:04 PM
Lucky you, all you people in whose groups sex is purely off-screen... my group (sometimes including me, yes) tends to insist on roll-playing. Charisma bonus times three + bonuses of two of your physical stats + 1d8. The DC depends on, among other factors, on the, um, target's alignment, background, and age. The sad part is that at a certain point we actually needed to work this out.


Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.

Well, that's what homebrewed monsters are for!

horseboy
2007-07-17, 06:10 PM
Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.

Male nymph=satyr. Incubi and succubi are the same thing. Just one's on top, one's on bottom. It's all just a shape shift away.

LotharBot
2007-07-17, 07:12 PM
Just a question:

Why?

If someone wanted to play a gay character in my group, that's exactly what I'd ask. What reason do you have for doing so? Does the rest of the group play a "sexual" style, such that your character being gay should matter or ever get brought up, or will the character just be gay in the background? Do you hope to accomplish some sort of social commentary (offending, or changing the mind of, another player) through your experiment with a gay character? Are you just curious as to what it's like in the same way as I'm curious what it's like to be a lawful-neutral monk?

Before you even think about asking your group if they'd be OK with the character... think about why you want to play that character in the first place. If your motives are pure (you're not looking to offend or mess with anyone else at the table), then think about building the character and ask the group if they'd be OK with it. But make sure you're actually doing it for a good reason first.

Human Paragon 3
2007-07-17, 07:20 PM
:smallannoyed: : Couldn't I just go back and face the peril?
:smallsigh: : No. It's too perilous.
:smallmad: : Bet you're gay.
:smallconfused: : No, I'm not.

Gavin Sage
2007-07-17, 07:33 PM
Unless you are doing an effeminate bard or other such sterotypical flamingly obvious sort of character I see no reason to play a homosexual character. Even reasonably tolerant people can be uncomfortable with actually dwelling on homosexuality when it comes to say as part of a plotline or subplot, and there aren't going to be the sort of seduction opportunities a hetero could use. Now if you want to play a sterotype for comedy that can be another matter, but can be offensive in another sense.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-17, 07:35 PM
Generally speaking, I try not to overdo sexuality (those of you who have read my posts probably find this a bit odd :P)

It's next to impossible to completely avoid it, because sexuality comes up so frequently "Rescue the princess!" invokes that kind of thing. But I suspect there aren't too many people having rescue princess quests...

Still, it'd be funny if at some point you have to rescue a prince and your character starts hitting on them and generally making him very uncomfortable :P


I have played some ambiguous characters :P But, this is for the express purpose of messing with people.

Dhavaer
2007-07-17, 07:48 PM
I can't see how it'd cause a problem. Does sex come up often in your games?

Starsinger
2007-07-17, 07:52 PM
Unless you are doing an effeminate bard or other such sterotypical flamingly obvious sort of character I see no reason to play a homosexual character.

Likewise, unless you're going to be scantily clad and overly seductive, I see no reason to play a female character. :smallannoyed: Maybe there are gay characters for the sake of being gay, like there are short characters, or blind characters, or characters who take ranks in craft (underwater basket weaving).

tobian
2007-07-17, 08:14 PM
I personally would have no problem playing with someone who played a homosexual character anymore than I would have a problem with them playing a heterosexual character. It is a role-playing game after all. Hell, I could roll up one and not have any problems playing it. Be an interesting change, thats for sure.

Though, I do have a wide range of acceptance towards that type of thing, which I understand that many people may not have such a broad view. If I though it was a bad idea in a particular group, I simply wouldn't do it. I realize some people cannot handle that kind of stuff, and that is fine. I wouldn't want my friends to be overly uncomfortable to the point where it wasn't fun.

One should use their best judgment with it imo.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-07-17, 08:36 PM
Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.

If it helps, Issue 353 have Incubi states, even if they magcially don't work the same way as succubi...

Edit: Sorry to hear your group is a bunch of jerks. My younger brother is gay, who also plays gay characters, and if anyone acted like that, IC or not, I'd probably put a stop to it.

Raltar
2007-07-17, 08:43 PM
Play what you want, but be ready for anything, basically. There's nothing wrong in playing gay characters or straight characters. I'm actually playing an asexual human mage. He's really vain, so vain that he doesn't think anyone is worthy of his bed. He likes beautiful things, of course, but he is more interested in becoming all powerful than actually sticking his penis into things.

Ramza00
2007-07-17, 08:49 PM
I disagree for the simple reason that there are no IC reasons to make a particular character. A player walks in the room with a concept, arrived at before the character existed, and makes a set of stats to go along with it. That's Out of Character...the character doesn't exist yet, so you can't be In.

I have no issues with people playing any random thing, or with players having their own diversity--but if you have to ask a group of strangers what they think your group's reaction will be, then it's pretty clear that the reason is one of a very few options, none of which revolve around the character itself. Most likely, it's strictly for that reaction, although attempting to make a point is also a popular reason for that question to come up.

Additionally, the question was about making a gay character, not about a character he had made and was thinking of playing as gay. This is relevant simply because that choice of language (or order of creation) reveals an order of priorities--generally, when someone says "gay character" they're thinking mostly of the "gay" part, not the "character" part. Stereotyping, which amusingly tends to offend the actually-gay players more than the "homophobic" ones, is the usual result.

I will not, however, claim to know every person's reasons for everything they do, however, which is why I asked the OP...

"Why?"

The answer is likely to indicate why such a character should never see his first initiative roll, but you never know.
And you are making a lot of assumptions, assumptions you have no basis for besides your own extrapolation, an extrapolation that is due to your perspective of the world and not one that is related to the original poster.

Sigh, I won't argue this anymore...

Chaos Perfected
2007-07-17, 08:57 PM
When I first read his post I thought he was asking what NPCs in D&D should react like. >>

Cyrano
2007-07-17, 09:02 PM
*Ahem*
Why the hell does it matter?

I'm definitely one of the "peoples is peoples" camp. Gay, straight, bisexual, who the hell cares? It's just words. If you're doing it for shock factor, well, I can't say I like it, but who am I to say you can't? If you're doing it to get a better roleplay experience, go ahead! Have fun with it. If you do it because you to want to act "comfortable with your masculinity" (like that means anything), I have to ask why you bother. Sexuality makes absolutely ZERO difference, provided that
A) you are willing to flirt with nonexistant people pretending to be elves and
B) the other group members won't go crazy.
Since only you can tell whether either of those factors apply, well then, make your own decision! yOu can play a stagnant, sterreotypical, boring character with or without homosexuality, a penchant for polygamy, a particular liking for group sex or any other sexually themed quirk. Ditto for interesting, fun characters. Do what's comfortable and fun. (Or uncomfortable and fun. Playing a very different character can be even more pleasing than playing a character you're comfortable with, because it forces you to think hard about your actions until they become another, instinctual personality. When you can leave a game thinking you were just someone else, either get help or come away satisfied, depending on the severity of the situation.)

Weirdlet
2007-07-17, 09:08 PM
If it were a question of NPCs, I'd ask- "What's the setting like on that front?" Is it a hanging/burning offence/abomination, or is it something nobody talks about, or is it grudgingly accepted or commonly practiced? Heck, there could be some orders that expel members of the opposite sex and focus on relationships between their own kind because it's 'purer', such as in Classical Greece and Japan.

Most people have mentioned playing a gay character being fine so long as it's not parodied to the point of being either unfunny or making playing difficult, and I'll add my vote in that direction too. If it never comes up directly and is just a personal element to the character, that's fine, and if it's a plot-point and not badly done, that's fine too. It's the same principal as playing a female anything or an unusual multiclass or a member of an ugly race or a renegade from an evil race- it can all be done very well, or very annoyingly, and when it's done very well there's not a darn thing wrong with it so long as it enhances the game and gives some story.

Dementrius
2007-07-17, 09:44 PM
Heck, D&D is filled with bestiality and you're going to get bent out of shape over a gay adventurer? Why is it ok for some human to have sex with a dragon but not with someone of their same species?

"Hi guys, guess what? I'm now dating that wyrmling dracolich that we met in the dungeon"
:smalleek: "Wow, dude, you just collected the whole set of wrongness"

Yogi
2007-07-17, 09:48 PM
Why? Why not?

If you can play an one eyed Elven druid which is a pirate on the open seas, with a Camel Spider familiar named Toofie, who has a crippling gambling addiction and a pathlogical fear of fried rice, whose mother is famous for having had sex with 100 dwarves in one day, why not play a gay character?

Ditto
2007-07-17, 09:52 PM
It never really comes up in my games, but I've sort of decided my characters are gay if for no other reason than they have been targeted *more than once* by ogre magi, liches, etc. casting illusion spells attempting to seduce my characters while on watch. When the sultry siren approaches, he calmly says, "No thanks, I don't swing that way." and returns to watching.

Actually, each of those times, I was playing an elf. Maybe all elves are gay...

Rain_Dancer
2007-07-17, 09:54 PM
Just a question:

Why?
My response to that question would be: Why not?

Although I agree with other posters that sexuality has not come up that often in most games I've played in, when it does surface everyone assumes that characters are heterosexual. I'm gay IRL, and pretty much play all of my characters as gay to some extent or another. Some are so low-key about it that you'd never know, others are more assertive about their sexuality, but I don't see why folks should necessarily assume that because I'm a guy I like to bed women.

I make it a point to ask every group I start with whether they'd be okay with my playing a gay character. I don't always necessarily want to play a gay character, but I'd like the option without folks making a big fuss about it, so I try to create that room for myself before I even start with a new group.

I also use it as a "homophobia test", if you will. I've dealt with too many gaming groups/online communities that think nothing of making f-g jokes around the table/forum, and would prefer not to join a group that makes a practice of saying degrading things about queers and women (I find those populations often overlap).

I agree that role-playing it with your DM can get kind of interesting. In one group I'm part of (all hetero guys, except me), the DM was playing an NPC that was basically coming onto one of my teammates, and I could tell that the other guys in the group were starting to get a little tense about the dynamic. However open-minded folks are, playing gay characters in DnD tends to push boundaries a little bit, and can sometimes result in awkwardness. Nothing insurmountable as long as folks are down with it, but just something to be aware of.

Jerthanis
2007-07-17, 11:04 PM
When I make a character, I find I have only tangential control over the character's actual history, or personality. Creativity for me is like a longterm project made out of a limited supply of legos... I don't spontaneously create my character concepts with full control over it. I sort of work on them every day, adding and dropping features, trying to fill in plotholes, explain character decisions, and make up things to make him or her more interesting, without running out of pieces or getting overly complex. At some point, the character's sexuality will be decided, and I will continue building on that point until I'm satisfied with the character or the game ends. (I will continue thinking after the first session.)

To me, sexuality is an intrinsic component of a person's entire personality. It's not a simple yes/no/maybe switch that doesn't affect anything else about a person. It's true that sometimes a particular character concept can switch fairly easily, from a boy who was in love with his best male friend growing up, and must now save or avenge him from evil horrors of some type, to a boy in love with his best female friend growing up and must save/avenge blah blah... but you wonder, "why should I have to change my idea for the character?" and of course, if such a thing makes people uncomfortable, you shouldn't do it... but if not, go nuts!

Ramza00
2007-07-17, 11:09 PM
Note there is a huge difference between uncomfortable as in something new and I don't know what to do, and unenjoyable due to the uncomfortableness.

If you can tell the difference between the two and are very astuste at reading people don't worry about being provactive and making someone uncomfortable, stop though if it leads to unenjoyable.

Zeful
2007-07-17, 11:44 PM
Why? Why Not?

I don't think it matters myself, as, like others have said, sexuality doesn't come up unless your DM introduces succubi or nymphs (and even then it may not come up) but if you want to, look at how the world reacts. Is it a stoning/hanging/exileing offense? If so I recomend having a three level dip into wizard (or four levels of sorcerer) so you can cast alter self, should suspision/oppression rear it's ugly head, your parter can drag in his 'shy female lover' to releave suspision, or your partnear can be the caster to releave suspision. But I'll echo the most important point, he should have other points of interest besides being gay, to the point that people don't realize their gay until an NPC hits on the character and he turns her down.

LotharBot
2007-07-18, 01:49 AM
My question of "why?" was not meant to imply "you have no reason" (to which the answer "why not?" is an effective response, as you have no reason not to.)

Rather, it was meant in the "check your own motivations" sense. If you're going to intentionally play a character with a different sexuality from your own -- a touchy subject, and one that can lead to offense if not handled gingerly -- be sure you understand why you're doing it and be sure your reason is good. There are a lot of reasons one might have to play such a character:

- just trying to fit in? (if you're gay and playing straight, for example)
- wanting to experiment with being an "outsider"?
- just wanting to try something new / have new plot hooks?
- wanting to experiment with the sexuality "in-game" because it's safer than doing it IRL?
- wanting to use it as your way of "coming out of the closet"? (playing a gay character to get your friends comfortable with the idea of you as gay, so that they're prepared)
- wanting to make another player uncomfortable?
- you have a great talent for acting, and you want an excuse to have a flamboyant or other stereotypical attitude?
- you want the opportunity to act juvenile and make a bunch of gay jokes?

Some motivations are OK. Some will depend a lot on the group you're with. Some are lame and wrong. Some you can do just as well with another type of character if your group isn't comfortable with a gay character.

In any case, explicit sexuality in D&D is something to be careful with. You can make other players uncomfortable in a lot of ways -- playing a character of the opposite sex and hitting on their character, or hitting on an NPC of the opposite sex run by a same-sex DM, or hitting on someone else's wife's character, or playing a gay character who hits on party members or NPC's, or even playing a character who just talks too much about hitting up the next brothel. Even if everyone at the table is a straight male between the ages of 18 and 25 and playing straight male characters, it can be uncomfortable sitting next to a guy who's always like "is there a brothel in this town? I'm gonna go bag me a chick." Not everyone wants that kind of interaction out of D&D, so if you're going to be explicitly sexual (straight or gay), check with your group to make sure you're not pushing too many boundaries.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-18, 03:34 AM
Even reasonably tolerant people can be uncomfortable with actually dwelling on homosexuality|
Then they're not actually reasonably tolerant, now are they?

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 03:59 AM
|
Then they're not actually reasonably tolerant, now are they?

Speaking as a gay man, i have good friends who were very tolerant and loving, they loved me and are good friends, but when you go to the homosexual part they became uncomfortable. Uncomfortable as in not knowing what to do or what to feel, uncertain how to react in a social situation. One of the few people I am thinking about then again was uncomfortable about talking about feelings associated with sex and love (he didn't mind talking about the physical parts or a rational thought process but with the feeling and emotion part he was lost.)

Uncomfortable though not in a painful way, uncomfortable as in awkward.

There are some other people who are uncomfortable with it in a painful way, or they just don't like the subject.

KIDS
2007-07-18, 04:42 AM
It's an okay thing as anything else as long as you don't push it. Sex doesn't have a whole lot to do with the average D&D game anyway, so if players don't go around screaming "WE'RE GAY!!!" to NPCs it will be allright.

Duff
2007-07-18, 05:16 AM
Our party often include gender and sexuality as part of character descriptions. We currently have the following characters in our party -one cross race couple (human/skulk) I'm playing the skulk and commented several times that the human reminded me of my first girlfriend... (played by my wife and I), a Try-sexual bard (will try anything) a gay character with a hopeless crush on the bard and a cleric and thief without any specific preferences.

We specify sexuality as a roll playing point, generally in a world with no strong oppinions re sexuality. Homosexual is usually the minority which means more seduction encounters where the preferences don't match up.

It's about as important as "likes blonds" in the description.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-07-18, 05:51 AM
:smalleek: "Wow, dude, you just collected the whole set of wrongness"

:smallbiggrin: That cracked me the heck up.

I could just be making false conclusions here, but it seems like the name of the game he was shooting for was shock value. I think it's kinda happy just how many people in the forum would run with it without blinking though. :smallredface:

Stephen_E
2007-07-18, 06:35 AM
To be honest, if I wanted to play a gay character I'd just go ahead and do it. I wouldn't even bother telling anyone about it until my PC started chatting up someone of the same sex.

I'd guess only about a 1/4 of my PC's have an active romantic life (I say romantic rather than sex, because generally sex is done off stage in our games.

As for "why paly a gay".
Been gay is about more than what you do between the sheets (or anywhere else for that matter).
It's about who your character sends signals to, who they turn down, how individuals and general public react to you. If you your PC does any roleplaying beyond kill monster "y" for XP and gold, then there sexuality becomes something that can be used as hooks for you or your GM.

I remember a CN philander I was playing. We got assigned a couple of guards to help us on an investigation and he started chatting up the female guard. Now in a world of vaguely current type sexuality the worst likely result is to get told to sod off. If my PC had been gay there would've been a considerable wider range of likely responses. Indeed in a high mortality rate world there are good reasons for gay sexuality to be disapproved of.

Basically the sexuality of your PC is no different from Race, Class of any other "colour" feature you attach to your character. They're something that you, the DM and other players can use to to flesh out or ignore as they wish.

Stephen

Roderick_BR
2007-07-18, 06:45 AM
If it really matters what your character do sexually, the result can vary. I mean, in many groups, people doesn't mind who stays with who, if one character will hit on another, etc, expect for roleplaying purposes. I thought about making a gay fighter once too. Not openly, nor hiding it, just discreet. Although in my group, gnomes are the ones with a bad fame because of a guy that used to play with us... XD
Damn, I'm gonna DM in a few weeks, I'll make a gay NPC =D

Valairn
2007-07-18, 06:48 AM
At the risk of repeating someone else, as long as by gay you mean, your character is homosexual I think you'll be fine.

But if you mean gay, as in my character is a 25 charisma female in a chainmail bikini that hits on the barmaids and sleeps with everything that moves, then you might have a problem, and I'm not even talking IC.

Talya
2007-07-18, 07:01 AM
I played a lesbian character in Everquest from 1999-2000, unwittingly to explore my own repressed bisexuality. Of course, that works better when you're in an MMO world with thousands of people and have never seen any of their faces, as opposed to a tabletop game setting.

Theodoxus
2007-07-18, 07:20 AM
[Scrubbed]
......
Theo

Capt'n Ironbrow
2007-07-18, 07:21 AM
A gay character? why not? but in a proto-medieval society it might be very much "frowned upon" so "openly gay" might be troublesome, who knows what paladins, clerics and conservatives might start a witch hunt because they fear that everyone will become gay if there's one who's so open about it (like in the real world!)... Or your partymembers might constantly try to determine if one of them is the romantic interest of your gay character, or that they will be seen as gay to for hanging out with you (the irrational fears so often portrayed in fiction and fact).

In my group we occassionally role/rollplay sexual intercourse, it involves Fellowship (charisma) to get that far and then there's a sequence of Dex and willpower tests to satisfy the partner and yourself... it does happen...

... a lot recently because one of my characters is a nymphomaniac (mental disorder). No settlement is visited without him chasing after girls to have sex with, his high Fel-stat is a bonus 'cause no sex for more than 3 days will drive him mad, MAD I tell you (actually, it'll drive him more mad than he allready is, he also suffers from Heroic Idiocy-> a very dangerous disorder).

Also, we have one married character who was so "good" during a one night stand with an NPC pick-pocket (female) that she married him just a few months later :P

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 08:24 AM
Oh, I just remembered that I have played a gay character, but not by choice: the game rules and dice mandated it!

It was in a Cyberpunk game (I forget which edition), which had some really extensive character background generation charts... you roll stuff like your family background, where you came from, events that shaped your past, etc.

One of the "shaped your past" results that I rolled was something to the effect of "lover or spouse mysteriously vanished—generate them with the NPC charts..." So I had to randomly roll up this NPC lover...and for generating an NPC you randomly determined the sex. So my male techie guy's randomly generated missing lover was also male. We all laughed and said "ooookay!" Nobody had a problem with this, though the irony is that I was not out of the closet yet so it kind of unnerved me a bit.


Unless you are doing an effeminate bard or other such sterotypical flamingly obvious sort of character I see no reason to play a homosexual character.

Have you even read this thread? There are many people giving perfectly reasonable reasons why they'd want to play a gay character.

Starsinger
2007-07-18, 09:21 AM
A gay character? why not? but in a proto-medieval society it might be very much "frowned upon" so "openly gay" might be troublesome, who knows what paladins, clerics and conservatives might start a witch hunt because they fear that everyone will become gay if there's one who's so open about it (like in the real world!)...

In a proto-medieval society sexism would be more prevalent too, and since women in D&D are not only, not like they are in medieval societies, but actually better off in terms of equality than they are today, I highly doubt there'd be any reason to say, "Everyone hates you because you're gay, because D&D is based on a medieval setting".

Murongo
2007-07-18, 09:31 AM
I can't see sex playing a large part in a D&D campaign at all. I can't remember once it mattering that my character was straight, so why should it ever matter if he were gay? If I were you I'd just play the game, forget sexuality, and if you want to daydream or write a story about the campaign later and it becomes important you can say he plays for the other party or whatever.

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 09:45 AM
Lawful good does not mean conservative. There are plenty of examples of conservative people and movements in the real world that could not possibly be considered lawful or good.

Why would paladins and lawful good churches be homophobic? Do gays radiate evil? Does detect evil also function as gaydar?

Tough_Tonka
2007-07-18, 09:46 AM
While we're on this note I'd like to ask a question?

I've been working on character ideas for my next campaign and I've been considering playing a male cross-dresser for my next character. I'd probably play a bard, rogue, or wizard, or maybe a ranger.

The character won't neccessarely be gay, he might just enjoy wearing womans clothes, makeup or maybe he likes gender neutral clothes and jewelry and just gets mistaken for a girl alot.

There are two parts to this question...

1. Who should being a cross-dresser work michanically, for the active cross-dresser I assume I just make disquise checks, but for what system should I use for a character who just gets mistaken for a female a lot.

2. Race: I'm tring to consider which race out of the PHB would make the best cross-dresser. I've condiered the changling but the actual ability to change gender is too much of an easy solution for me. I'm not just asking who would make he prettiest or easiest gender bender, I'm asking what paticulair things do you think a halfling, dwarven or half-orc etc. cross dresser would do to look more feminine?

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 10:10 AM
Why would you need a "system" for cross dressing? If you're not trying to "pass" (i.e. use a disguise check), just make it a running gag. People often do this with girly-boy elves. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=645)

Male wizards already cross dress...all those robes, pointy princess hats...

Another classic cliche is female dwarves that look just like male dwarves (as in Terry Pratchett novels).

AmberVael
2007-07-18, 10:13 AM
While we're on this note I'd like to ask a question?

I've been working on character ideas for my next campaign and I've been considering playing a male cross-dresser for my next character. I'd probably play a bard, rogue, or wizard, or maybe a ranger.

The character won't necessarily be gay, he might just enjoy wearing womans clothes, makeup or maybe he likes gender neutral clothes and jewelry and just gets mistaken for a girl a lot.

There are two parts to this question...

1. Who should being a cross-dresser work mechanically, for the active cross-dresser I assume I just make disguise checks, but for what system should I use for a character who just gets mistaken for a female a lot.

2. Race: I'm trying to consider which race out of the PHB would make the best cross-dresser. I've considered the changeling but the actual ability to change gender is too much of an easy solution for me. I'm not just asking who would make he prettiest or easiest gender bender, I'm asking what particular things do you think a halfling, dwarven or half-orc etc. cross dresser would do to look more feminine?
1. Roleplay. Seriously, just say "my character looks androgynous" and let people react to him that way.

2. Elf would be easiest, and honestly I think it makes most sense for them. They really do have less differences in form, even among their own species. *shrug*
As for what they'd do... maybe use magic? I don't know... I'm not exactly a cross-dressing expert. :smalltongue:

Yogi
2007-07-18, 10:44 AM
My question of "why?" was not meant to imply "you have no reason" (to which the answer "why not?" is an effective response, as you have no reason not to.)

Rather, it was meant in the "check your own motivations" sense. If you're going to intentionally play a character with a different sexuality from your own -- a touchy subject, and one that can lead to offense if not handled gingerly -- be sure you understand why you're doing it and be sure your reason is good. There are a lot of reasons one might have to play such a character:Why?

If someone askes if he could play an Evil character, or a Blind character, or a character with an opposite gender, or an Elven Druid-Pirate with a Camel Spider familiar named Toofie, the response is universally "Sure, as long as the other players and the DM are OK with it and you think it'll work with the group." However, with a gay character it's suddenly "Oh, but why do you want to do so? What are your motivations? Perhaps they're BAD motivations!!!" No reason to do so, at least not more than any other character build, from the most flamboyant to Generic Lawful Good Human Fighter # 123.

Jayabalard
2007-07-18, 10:49 AM
Lawful good does not mean conservative. There are plenty of examples of conservative people and movements in the real world that could not possibly be considered lawful or good.

Why would paladins and lawful good churches be homophobic? Do gays radiate evil? Does detect evil also function as gaydar?The good/evil axis doesn't have anything to do with it.

Lawful means, among other things, "adheres to tradition" which is one of the definitive qualities of being "conservative". So, in general, "conservative" = lawful.

Whether paladins and clerics of a lawful good church would be homophobic or not would depend entirely on the teaching of that church; it could go either way (pun not intended). If homosexuality is against the traditions of the culture, it would almost certainly* be frowned upon by that church. Contrast that with a chaotic good church, which would almost certainly* not be homophobic, regardless of the traditions of the culture.

*By "almost certainly", I mean that a deity, church or other in game npc or institution isn't bound by their alignment s a straitjacket any more than a player is. The alignment describes the entity rather than the entity being bound to their alignment description. Lawful good church or deity can have non-lawful and non-good tenets, and vice versa.

Tough_Tonka
2007-07-18, 11:24 AM
1. Roleplay. Seriously, just say "my character looks androgynous" and let people react to him that way.

2. Elf would be easiest, and honestly I think it makes most sense for them. They really do have less differences in form, even among their own species. *shrug*
As for what they'd do... maybe use magic? I don't know... I'm not exactly a cross-dressing expert. :smalltongue:

Well I have one of those GMs that wants to put a system to everything, fearing not doing so might give the player an unfair advantage, and when it comes to identies unless I actively roll a disquise check to make my character look different even drunk level 1 commoners can tell my race.

For example when entering a racist human village my 5' 9'' half-elf, who had a beard and neck length hair, put on a hat to cover his ears. But when I entered the village one of the drunk humans immediately spotted me as a half-elf and told me to get out of town, for as the GM put it, "the elven grace I moved with".

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 11:41 AM
If homosexuality is against the traditions of the culture, it would almost certainly* be frowned upon by that church.

Yeah, but oppressing others for the sake of LAW is a quick trip from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil.

Telonius
2007-07-18, 11:46 AM
While we're on this note I'd like to ask a question?

I've been working on character ideas for my next campaign and I've been considering playing a male cross-dresser for my next character. I'd probably play a bard, rogue, or wizard, or maybe a ranger.

The character won't neccessarely be gay, he might just enjoy wearing womans clothes, makeup or maybe he likes gender neutral clothes and jewelry and just gets mistaken for a girl alot.

There are two parts to this question...

1. Who should being a cross-dresser work michanically, for the active cross-dresser I assume I just make disquise checks, but for what system should I use for a character who just gets mistaken for a female a lot.

2. Race: I'm tring to consider which race out of the PHB would make the best cross-dresser. I've condiered the changling but the actual ability to change gender is too much of an easy solution for me. I'm not just asking who would make he prettiest or easiest gender bender, I'm asking what paticulair things do you think a halfling, dwarven or half-orc etc. cross dresser would do to look more feminine?


1. Disguise vs. spot, to tell. For somebody who gets mistaken, just roleplay it out. Maybe a Wisdom check on the part of the viewer to correctly identify the gender of a non-disguised person. As for your character, would they go along with it, correct the person? For example, I'm a man, but my last name also happens to be a woman's first name. So in business communications I often get referred to as "Ms. (Tel)." Sometimes I'm annoyed by it, sometimes I let it go, other times I laugh about it. Let your character tell you what the best response would be.

2. For a Dwarf: Either they're all alike, or they're not. If they all have beards, then there's not much you need to do. Just change your name to something more feminine sounding. (Come to think of it, if that's the case, there probably wouldn't be any dwarvish crossdressers). If there are dwarf women without beards, have the guy shave his beard. (No dwarf would ever assume that a male dwarf would do that).

For an Elf: lipstick and a bow in the hair.

For a half-orc: rigid armor shaped to accommodate bosoms, and stuff the difference with furs; wear hair longer. Bathe occasionally.

Halfling: Probably the biggest difference would be clothes and hairstyle. Wear sunny colors.

Gnome: You're a gnome. Cast an illusion spell.

Jayabalard
2007-07-18, 12:20 PM
Yeah, but oppressing others for the sake of LAW is a quick trip from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil.Nah, in and of itself that's lawful neutral. Oppressing others because are they are doing something wrong and violating tradition can easily fit pretty solidly into a lawful good church, especially if the rest of that religion's beliefs are good. Oppressing thieves and murderers is ok, after all.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 12:33 PM
And you are making a lot of assumptions, assumptions you have no basis for besides your own extrapolation and gaming sessions where this situation has come up before, an extrapolation that is due to your perspective of the world based on professional study of human social behavior and not one that is related to the original poster except as it relates to what he posted, and with the caveat about individual differences I have included in every post.

Sigh, I won't argue this anymore... I edited to include some details you were not aware of. Does that help clarify my question a bit?

I believe I've been pretty even-handed here, not claiming to have any divination-like ability to read the OP's mind, but simply extrapolating based on what he said in the absense of any response to anything that any poster has said. Assumptions are all that anyone has to work with right now, and the fact that the OP's question is highly similar to situations in which that question was asked is not irrelevant with the absence of clarification here.


Although I agree with other posters that sexuality has not come up that often in most games I've played in, when it does surface everyone assumes that characters are heterosexual. I'm gay IRL, and pretty much play all of my characters as gay to some extent or another. Some are so low-key about it that you'd never know, others are more assertive about their sexuality, but I don't see why folks should necessarily assume that because I'm a guy I like to bed women. I just wanted to quote this as a perfect example of something I mentioned earlier--someone who makes characters that are gay, rather than making "a gay character" to see what his party will do in response. Few groups would take issue with this.

If it's about seeing what response you get, then regardless of good (or bad) intentions, it's stirring the pot. If it's something you make just like you'd make any other character, odds are pretty good nobody will care in the first place.


Rather, it was meant in the "check your own motivations" sense.
[..]
Not everyone wants that kind of interaction out of D&D, so if you're going to be explicitly sexual (straight or gay), check with your group to make sure you're not pushing too many boundaries. Precisely.

We had one somewhat immature player in a D&D group a while back. Nobody else in the group was interested in playing sexuality in the game except for the occasional innuendo, but this guy wanted to know where the nearest lay was a couple times in a row when he entered a town. It detracted from the group's enjoyment, and D&D is a group activity. He thought it would be funny to get a reaction, and he wasn't breaking any actual rules of character creation, but it was a bad decision and led to his fellow players not taking him seriously.


Why?

If someone askes if he could play an Evil character, or a Blind character, or a character with an opposite gender, or an Elven Druid-Pirate with a Camel Spider familiar named Toofie, the response is universally "Sure, as long as the other players and the DM are OK with it and you think it'll work with the group." However, with a gay character it's suddenly "Oh, but why do you want to do so? What are your motivations? Perhaps they're BAD motivations!!!" No reason to do so, at least not more than any other character build, from the most flamboyant to Generic Lawful Good Human Fighter # 123.Complete nonsense, and I can't come up with any interpretation of what LotharBot said that would get a response like that...are you being sarcastic here and I'm just missing the joke?

I'm going to assume you aren't, and apologize for overthinking your humor if you were. I, and every group I've played with, as the exact same question whenever someone wants to play an evil character, or a blind character, or a character of the opposite gender--that last one hasn't come up, but would also get the same question. The response is not different in any way from a well-established response.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 12:51 PM
A gay character? why not? but in a proto-medieval society it might be very much "frowned upon" so "openly gay" might be troublesome, who knows what paladins, clerics and conservatives might start a witch hunt because they fear that everyone will become gay if there's one who's so open about it (like in the real world!)... Or your partymembers might constantly try to determine if one of them is the romantic interest of your gay character, or that they will be seen as gay to for hanging out with you (the irrational fears so often portrayed in fiction and fact).

Just because the society is medevil doesn't mean it is homophobic. France prior to St Thomas of Aquinas was very tolerant of homosexuals, it was this time period of the catholic church that had the church refocus its efforts and criticism of any non productive form of sex including masturbation, oral, and anal for straight people let alone gay people. It was this century that nuns were banned from sleeping in the same bed...to prevent sin, and womens were blamed in folk tales bards sing of having uncontrollable lust for they sometimes slept with the same sex.

Russia prior to St Petersburg had no laws against homosexuality, he adopted them for the west had them and he was emulating the west, diplomats who visited Russia prior to St Peter was shocked how open gay people were and the st orthodox church on occasion blessed gay unions (note they didn't married anybody, they just say go with god.)

Japan also had similar occurrences before the Meiji period except homosexuality was more ingrained in its culture. The meiji period is the the industrialization and westernation of japan starting in 1868 with reforms by Emperor Meiji, these reforms brought progress to japan but caused the end of the samurai
-------
In sum don't assume just because a culture is medevil that it is homophobic. Furthermore this is fantasy you get to craft your own world and thus redo all the culture and historical rules if you want to.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 12:52 PM
Why would paladins and lawful good churches be homophobic? Do gays radiate evil? Does detect evil also function as gaydar?
It is a substitution level that you can do for paladins. Some palaidns trade in detect evil for detect lies, some for detect magic, others use it for detect gay, for nefarious or squarish reasons :smallwink:

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 01:04 PM
I edited to include some details you were not aware of. Does that help clarify my question a bit?

I believe I've been pretty even-handed here, not claiming to have any divination-like ability to read the OP's mind, but simply extrapolating based on what he said in the absense of any response to anything that any poster has said. Assumptions are all that anyone has to work with right now, and the fact that the OP's question is highly similar to situations in which that question was asked is not irrelevant with the absence of clarification here.

Thing is you are extrapolating, and you then put motivations in the poster head. You have no clue what his motivations are, perhaps he wants to stir the pot but if he wanted to stir the pot why ask random strangers whether he should do this? Perhaps the original poster really wants to do this for a whole host of reasons (a starting list is in post 60), yet he asks for he is scared, he is scared of disapproval, scared of fights, scared of rejection.

You don't have a *expletive* clue what the motivations and reasons for the original poster wanting to play a gay character. Neither do I know why the poster wants to do it. Then again I didn't say there are no reasons to make a particular character or that I see no reasons to do it except trolling.

LotharBot
2007-07-18, 01:06 PM
If someone askes if he could play an Evil character, or a Blind character, or a character with an opposite gender, or an Elven Druid-Pirate with a Camel Spider familiar named Toofie, the response is universally "Sure, as long as the other players and the DM are OK with it and you think it'll work with the group." However, with a gay character it's suddenly "Oh, but why do you want to do so?

If someone asks me if they can play an evil character, I give the same response. I want to know whether they're looking for an excuse to play chaotic-stupid and ruin my game session, or looking to target another player, or looking for an outlet for aggression, or looking to explore certain facets of morality, or looking for the opportunity to stretch their "acting" repertoire, or looking to tell a story of redemption, or... you get the picture. I'd ask the same if someone wanted to play a religious-proselytizing or a loud-mouthed anti-religious type, or if they wanted to play a truly nymphomaniacal character or otherwise really play up their sexuality. Whether or not they'd get the OK at my table would depend very much on how they answered the question.

With characters fitting any of those descriptions, answering the question "what's your motivation?" is a NECESSARY PRECURSOR to answering the question as to whether your group will be OK with it and whether it'll work with the group. Not because there's something specifically wrong with being gay, strongly religious or anti-religious, or a nympho (though there is with being evil :smallwink: ) but because the reality is, those are all themes that, in the culture most of us live in, have the potential to make players uncomfortable or even lead to major OOC conflict at the gaming table. So if someone asks to play a character like that, I (as DM and host) am going to ask some piercing questions about it. I'm going to be sure the player is doing it to role-play, not to harass someone else or to turn my gaming table into a gay-bashing session.

If you want to play a gay character because you think it'd be interesting to role-play their interactions with others, that's cool. If you want to play a gay character because you know someone else in the group is either in the closet or homophobic and you want to make them uncomfortable, that's not so cool.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 01:16 PM
Thing is you are extrapolating, and you then put motivations in the poster head. No, I did not. I am saying what is usually the case when that question is asked, as it is asked regularly, then asking the OP if this is the case for him.
You have no clue what his motivations are, And as I explicitly stated in both of my posts, I do not claim to have that kind of divination.
perhaps he wants to stir the pot but if he wanted to stir the pot why ask random strangers whether he should do this? Because that is exactly what people do. They ask strangers for validation to work up their confidence first. That would not be remotely unusual, in fact it is the norm.
Perhaps the original poster really wants to do this for a whole host of reasons (a starting list is in post 60), yet he asks for he is scared, he is scared of disapproval, scared of fights, scared of rejection. Perhaps. I suppose we'll find out for sure when he returns. Fortunately, he has been heartily and frequently encouraged to do so in order to elaborate.
You don't have a *expletive* clue what the motivations and reasons for the original poster wanting to play a gay character. Which makes for a good reason to ask, doesn't it?
Neither do I know why the poster wants to do it. Then again I didn't say there are no reasons to make a particular character or that I see no reasons to do it except trolling. Neither did I. You are reading things that I never wrote.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 01:20 PM
Then they're not actually reasonably tolerant, now are they? I just noticed this, and thought I'd add a small tidbit here. Tolerance is enduring or putting up with something. Discomfort is not intolerant. Tolerance isn't always a full acceptance.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 01:27 PM
Neither did I. You are reading things that I never wrote.
It is your whole tone, you didn't ask why are you doing this.

You did why are you doing this? I can see only nefarious reasons, and then in another post you started going on how his reasons are probably almost certantly nefarious.

My response to you was saying "I can only see" is kinda arrogant for we as people can never read minds, and by saying that you are saying the original poster has to justify his logic with you. He doesn't have to explain it, he has to justify it.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 01:29 PM
I just noticed this, and thought I'd add a small tidbit here. Tolerance is enduring or putting up with something. Discomfort is not intolerant. Tolerance isn't always a full acceptance.

Agreed except I would put up "not fighting it" with enduring or putting up with.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 01:38 PM
It is your whole tone, you didn't ask why are you doing this.

You did why are you doing this? I can see only nefarious reasons, and then in another post you started going on how his reasons are probably almost certantly nefarious.

My response to you was saying "I can only see" is kinda arrogant for we as people can never read minds, and by saying that you are saying the original poster has to justify his logic with you. He doesn't have to explain it, he has to justify it. The second post was in response to Dark Knight Renee, not in response to Enzario . It's dishonest to tack that on as my answer to Enzario when my response to him is right there as post #3, and I directly quoted Dark Knight Renee in the other post.

I do not see an arrogance in me publicly admitting a limitation on my ability to extrapolate his motivations beyond a limited few and then asking if it was something other than those, but if you wish to believe me arrogant for having the gall to ask him why he wants to do something he'd like to talk to the world about doing, that's your prerogative. I don't really understand that approach, but I dare not ask your reasoning...


Agreed except I would put up "not fighting it" with enduring or putting up with. That would be what "putting up with" means--"enduring or tolerating without complaint or attempt at reprisal". :smallsmile:

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 02:04 PM
Players play thieves, assassins, crazy necromancers, zealous inquisitioners, vampires, elf sorceresses, werewolverines and anthropomorphic bat druids, and folks get bent out of shape out of sexual orientation? :smallconfused:

Why are people more willing to tolerate an murderer than a homosexual character?

Telonius
2007-07-18, 02:07 PM
I just noticed this, and thought I'd add a small tidbit here. Tolerance is enduring or putting up with something. Discomfort is not intolerant. Tolerance isn't always a full acceptance.

Reminded me of a South Park quote...


Tolerant, but not stupid! Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! If you had to like it, it'd be called the Museum of Acceptance! "Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!

prufock
2007-07-18, 02:09 PM
If your party has no problem with it, go ahead. If they do have a problem with it... why are they your friends?

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 02:10 PM
Players play thieves, assassins, crazy necromancers, zealous inquisitioners, vampires, elf sorceresses, werewolverines and anthropomorphic bat druids, and folks get bent out of shape out of sexual orientation? :smallconfused:

Why are people more willing to tolerate an murderer than a homosexual character? Violence is common in D&D, it would be unusual to not have it be central to the plot.
Sexuality is unusual in D&D, it would be common to not have it be central to the plot.

That's probably a good starting point.

Remember, this isn't about real-world morality--it's about what fits smoothly with an established gaming group.

(Oh, and Telonius, that was really funny!)

axraelshelm
2007-07-18, 02:19 PM
Sexuality in dnd hmmm well its just one side of a character and nothing else with so much going dungeons, slaying dragons, saving slaves, plane hopping why the choice of bedfellows is important apart from in plot?

rashambo
2007-07-18, 02:28 PM
I like playing the adventure. It feels a bit awkward when someone plays the opposite sex. And since sexual overtones really don't come into play in our games, it would really be a moot point.

One game, the plot was crucial around one of the players having a love interest, my character was the lucky one, but I opted to do all dating and "what not" off camera. Mainly it took table time from the rest of the players and slowed the adventure down.

Play what you want, but if you make everyone else feel weird, it could disrupt the game. Remember, your characters already represent very unusual people in the world. Magic users, barbarians, priests that can perform miracles, and such. Townfolk would run from a kobold, and here you go killing orcs, and bashing the living dead into small chunks. There is so much there to work with already, I think putting sex and sexuality in an adventure just slows it down a lot and kinda smacks of a table hog.

lukelightning
2007-07-18, 03:09 PM
I think putting sex and sexuality in an adventure just slows it down a lot and kinda smacks of a table hog.

Far less than the typical rogue "I'm sneaking around town doing my own thing" situations, or when a PC cleric insists on roleplaying out his character's religion, or the bard who insists on going around entertaining folks, or any of the hundred other roleplaying things that players do that don't involve killing things and taking their stuff.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 03:19 PM
Far less than the typical rogue "I'm sneaking around town doing my own thing" situations, or when a PC cleric insists on roleplaying out his character's religion, or the bard who insists on going around entertaining folks, or any of the hundred other roleplaying things that players do that don't involve killing things and taking their stuff. ...all of which are things one player is doing while everyone else waits, which are all bad for that very reason.

The house being on fire is probably not a good reason for the fire department to add logs and marshmallows.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 03:45 PM
does anybody have anything new and different to say, or is this thread out of new ideas till the original poster comes back?

Wants to play a gay Archivist 6/Holt Warden 4/Windwalker 10

Windwalker is a prc in Faiths and Panetheons 3.0 FR. It is a person who is always moving, always wandering, feels trapped if he can not be free. Worships the god Shaundakul and the prc is very travel/air related.

Holtwarden is a prc in Complete Champion for a person who reveres nature above all else.

the player a person who reveres chaos, nature, travel and trade. He can not feel at home in a place besides the great outdoors and he is always moving. Always being free (think Captain Jack Sparrow). Like Jack he is running from something and like Jack he can not escape it, for it is how the way the world works.

LotharBot
2007-07-18, 04:20 PM
Wants to play a gay Archivist 6/Holt Warden 4/Windwalker 10

.... reveres chaos, nature, travel and trade... always moving... running from something

That would be an interesting character.

On the other hand, what if he wanted to play a gay bard who dressed and talked exactly like the shy kid who just joined the gaming group and doesn't seem to have a lot of friends?

I hate to make that sort of assumption about anybody, but the fact remains, the possibilities range from "interesting and clever character whose sexual orientation makes for a good plot hook and roleplaying opportunity" to "one-dimensional character designed to harass others at the table." That's why I ask the question, both here and at my gaming table.

RelentlessImp
2007-07-18, 04:24 PM
I was thinking of creating an openly gay character for my next campaign, and I was wondering what sort of reaction I would get. In my gaming group, people might feel a bit awkward, but they wouldn't really mind. But in other groups, this character might not be as acceptable. Any comments on characters with "alternate" sexualities? Feel free to speak your mind, but due to the nature of this topic I would really like it if no one did any flaming (good way to get this thread shut down fast). Any thoughts?

Unless you're using the BoEF I really don't see the point of bringing up your character's sexuality directly. I mean, 90% of the time (unless your group focuses mostly on roleplaying and not combat) you're going to be in dungeons, far away from anyone but your group members, and if you start hitting on that bear of a half-orc, you may wind up in a shallow grave as they fly into berserker rage and crush life from your puny body.

The other times, sure, you can make goo-goo eyes at the informant, but it shouldn't really raise too many eyebrows.

The point? Your character's sexuality should not be the central point of your character. If you draw too much attention to it, then all you're doing is testing your group. Played right, I suppose it could be interesting, but at the base? Still just another adventurer.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 04:51 PM
No one should ever use the Book of Erotic Fantasy :P

(Especially if you're looking for eroticism)

Prustan
2007-07-18, 04:52 PM
The few times I've had a group to play with, all the players have been rather young, so sex didn't come up at all. That said, I personally would be very uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, around a gay character. And before anyone starts flaming or anything, I'd act much the same to an evil character.

As a DM, I'd say no, and as a player, I'd also say no - for the same reason, homosexuality creeps me out.

Jayabalard
2007-07-18, 05:12 PM
And before anyone starts flaming or anything, I'd act much the same to an evil character.You say that like it's supposed to be some sort of justification; claiming that gay = evil isn't going to make people want to flame you any less. Quite the contrary.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 05:46 PM
The few times I've had a group to play with, all the players have been rather young, so sex didn't come up at all. That said, I personally would be very uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, around a gay character. And before anyone starts flaming or anything, I'd act much the same to an evil character.

As a DM, I'd say no, and as a player, I'd also say no - for the same reason, homosexuality creeps me out.

You are so picking the wrong thread to say that.

It's understandable that some people are uncomfortable with the idea. Lots of people are uncomfortable with sexuality to begin with. But outright hostile? No. You're wrong here.

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 05:55 PM
The few times I've had a group to play with, all the players have been rather young, so sex didn't come up at all. That said, I personally would be very uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, around a gay character. And before anyone starts flaming or anything, I'd act much the same to an evil character.

Please calm down. I wouldn't play a gay character around 12 year olds, most of us won't it would be improper, even though at that age kids should be learning about sex at this time in their lives, trust me 12 years olds are curious about sex at this age even if the hormones haven't kicked in yet.

Yet at the same time you sound defensive, you sound you need to defend the ideas that instead of defending them you jump straight to hostile and are almost aggressive in defending your beliefs. Relax please, we aren't trying to say your ideas are wrong, perhaps we disagree with you, but not wrong as in your are not allowed to feel those things, as you are not allowed to believe your own beliefs.


As a DM, I'd say no, and as a player, I'd also say no - for the same reason, homosexuality creeps me out.

Well if you ever want to talk about it I am here. We aren't that scary, nor are we evil. You don't have to like it, it doesn't have to be a thing for you, just tolerate us. You can be creeped out and still tolerate, but usually when you are creeped out you are defensive and don't think and say some things harsher than you mean.

Whatever works for you though :smallsmile:

Corolinth
2007-07-18, 06:07 PM
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it. One of the major NPC clerics in my campaign is gay. They've encountered far more bizarre things than the local high priest. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be gay and be a normal person.

But you're asking the wrong people, ultimately. I'm not running your campaign, and you're not playing with the rest of my group. I think a lot of straight men get nervous around other straight men behaving gay, moreso than they do around actual gay men. The thought that he might be a closet homosexual is somehow more frightening than actual, confirmed homosexuality. At the same time, that same discomfort doesn't extend to manginas, even manginas who play their female characters as heterosexual. Guys don't seem to get scared that Steve who's playing the female elf cleric is a closet drag queen. I can't tell you why this is, just that it seems to be the case. It's like the Suborbital Homosexuality Laser is homing in on us to fire it's Gay Mind Control Ray.

I should tell you not to do it if it's going to make your group uncomfortable. It's a game that your friends get together to play, so why ruin it? But at the same time, you should understand that things will pop up in role-playing games that you're not going to be comfortable with. I'm not exactly comfortable with monsters eating villagers, but I have that happen sometimes. I have, on several occasions, put my players into a situation they weren't comfortable with; far, far more uncomfortable than the rest of your group is going to be around a gay character. 'Squeezins' comes to mind.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-18, 06:23 PM
homosexuality creeps me out.

You should probably work on that. Much like you would if, oh, redheads creeped you out.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 06:31 PM
It's like the Suborbital Homosexuality Laser is homing in on us to fire it's Gay Mind Control Ray. I found that entirely too funny. I would steal that idea, but have been previously informed that anything I find that funny is not appropriate material.

Corolinth
2007-07-18, 06:35 PM
Feel free to run wild with it. I've been cracking jokes about the Gay Mind Control Ray for years, now.

tainsouvra
2007-07-18, 06:39 PM
Feel free to run wild with it. I've been cracking jokes about the Gay Mind Control Ray for years, now. No, I could probably be adding to that "Things I'm Not Allowed To Do While Gaming" thread with "anything that makes me smile that kind of smile". Players would mutiny before I even mentioned it, they'd just know it was going to be a bad day.

For reference, my first thought was setting it on high and targeting a country to depopulate it in a single generation.

Corolinth
2007-07-18, 06:42 PM
That's an interesting campaign premise.

Dhavaer
2007-07-18, 06:57 PM
I considered using ex-gay vampires once. Sort of a reversal of the lesbian vampire stereotype.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 06:58 PM
One day I might give a Shadowrun campaign another shot. Gay Mind Control laser might be a great thing for some antagonists to be afraid of.

Prustan
2007-07-18, 07:19 PM
I didn't mean to sound quite as defensive or homophobic as I did. I believe myself to be quite mature, but I have been raised with strong values of (what my faith considers to be) right and wrong, and homosexuality is one of those wrong things.
Having thought over my likely actions a bit more carefully, I'd still say no as a DM (though I'd also say no to anyone who wanted more than a PG game), but as a player I'd say no at first, then find a group that fit me better if the other was determined. And the hostility mentioned previously would not be directed at the player, though I may give him/her some funny looks for a while.

I suppose my gut reaction to homosexuality is "If you really want to do it, fine, just do it several miles away from me." And, in RL, I don't personally know any gay people, which suits me fine.

And to all the people who say (or think) that I've been posting in the wrong thread, didn't the OP want people's opinions on whether or not a gay character would be a good idea, and how people would react to said gay character?

Recursive
2007-07-18, 08:00 PM
I suppose my gut reaction to homosexuality is "If you really want to do it, fine, just do it several miles away from me."
To which I hope they answer, "We're staying right here...but by all means, go several miles away if you like."

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 09:55 PM
Right. And I belong to the followers of Squiggy. We believe it to be immoral to help others as it goes against the will of the great tentacled one who demands that we must suffer and consume each other.

Cryopyre
2007-07-18, 10:01 PM
Are we even aloud to talk about this in here, I mean, it seems like a political discussion cleverly concealed in a game?

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 10:11 PM
Yeah, this got a bit off topic. Like, really off topic. I think that the original question got answered as best it could which is to say, "Go for it if the other players can handle it."

Shall we call the thread off before it gets more heated?

Cryopyre
2007-07-18, 10:13 PM
I say yes, but I'm sure the mods will find and lock this, I have no desire for calling in mod-intervention.

I mean my opinion hasn't been insulted so I'll just let it run its course.

Talya
2007-07-18, 10:15 PM
mods have already been here. Something was scrubbed in a post immediately following a post I made earlier. Now I'll be forever wondering what they said about me! ;)

Ramza00
2007-07-18, 10:18 PM
Lets not debate whether mods should or shouldn't be here, or whether they should close the thread or not, or warn people or not. They are the mods, trust their judgment, it isn't our job to be mods it is their job.

Cryopyre
2007-07-18, 10:20 PM
Okay fine, I'm just questioning, not trying to shut you guys up.

Dhavaer
2007-07-18, 10:25 PM
How many people have actually had an 'onscreen' romance in a game, gay or otherwise?
I've had a few (PC male elf/PC female human, PC male human/NPC female human, PC male human/NPC female drow, PC male dragonblood/NPC female tiefling, NPC female human/NPC female human) but the majority of those (all but the first) were in single PC games where there's more time to focus on things like that.

Starsinger
2007-07-18, 10:31 PM
My ex and I had an onscreen relationship, although my character was female.

Vuzzmop
2007-07-18, 10:32 PM
My only question is, are you mature enough to do it? As long as you don't try to mount every male npc in the campaign world, I don't see a problem, and if your other gamers do, they really need to grow up and accept that these people exist. How often does sexuality get into these games anyway?

Dhavaer
2007-07-18, 10:37 PM
How often does sexuality get into these games anyway?

Constantly in Modern, not so much in D&D, in my experience.

rashambo
2007-07-18, 10:54 PM
Far less than the typical rogue "I'm sneaking around town doing my own thing" situations, or when a PC cleric insists on roleplaying out his character's religion, or the bard who insists on going around entertaining folks, or any of the hundred other roleplaying things that players do that don't involve killing things and taking their stuff.

I hate the guy that "just sneaks off". At our table if there is any non-story stuff that has to happen, it get played/ fleshed out between sessions. Sneaking off is usually done with a Gather Info and brothel hopping and preaching outside of in the spirit of keeping things fluid is done off-screen. A bard can be played with perform checks and what not. I'm just saying that if it's too obtuse, other players might resent it and it could hurt your group. If you are really roleplaying it, the openly gay adventurer has more adventuring on his mind anyway, not finding a bath house.

All I know is I'm a life-long gamer in an area where games are hard as hades to get together. Especially if you get into your 30's and up (like me). I notice it makes some folks uneasy, if it works for you, go for it.

Fhaolan
2007-07-18, 11:40 PM
How many people have actually had an 'onscreen' romance in a game, gay or otherwise?


Interesting question. I had to think about it.

My characters have been involved in 'offscreen' romances on many occasions, but I can only remember one 'onscreen'. About ten years ago. We even RP'ed the wedding, and later the divorce. Oddly enough, it was the character I'm currently using as an avatar.

'course that was a freeform pseudo-GURPS game with very little resemblance to D&D. It was the first, and only time, I'd ever gamed with no Game Master at all. It worked in a really weird way that I'm not sure I could ever duplicate again.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-18, 11:51 PM
Would you believe I was in several on screen romances? It was very disturbing at times.

But, helped me a bit to the point where I was no longer afraid to express an interest in women.

Corolinth
2007-07-18, 11:58 PM
Now, it does raise mechanical questions, since D&D was built under the assumption that the party is straight males and bisexual females. For example, Nymphs and Succubi. Incubi don't even exist anymore, except for the picture in Savage Species of course. But, is a gay character subject to a Sucubus? What about a Nymph? And if not, that's sort of unfair, too. Especially if there aren't Incubi or male nymphs.The incubus only existed in 2nd edition as a footnote in the succubus entry as "the male version of the succubus". They had the same stats. The 3.5 succubus is given Polymorph as an at-will spell-like ability, limited to humanoid forms. The implication being that the succubus and the incubus are, in fact, one and the same, and that the only difference is which gender it has chosen for the task at hand. Although there is an issue of Dragon magazine in which the incubus is statted out as a separate creature (and inferior to the succubus).

As for nymphs, the mythological creature that the nymph is based on is female. There are no male nymphs. This is why the word "nymphomania" is gender-specific to the female. A sex-crazed male is referred to as a satyr, not a nymphomaniac. Erego, the fey creature that assumes the role of seducing straight females and gay males is the satyr.

So yes, a gay character is still subject to temptation by various fey and fiendish creatures.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-19, 02:05 AM
I didn't mean to sound quite as defensive or homophobic as I did. I believe myself to be quite mature, but I have been raised with strong values of (what my faith considers to be) right and wrong, and homosexuality is one of those wrong things.
That doesn't explain your reaction, though.
Presumably, your faith also considers, say, theft to be wrong, or adultery, or premarital sex, and yet I doubt you would prohibit someone from playing a thief or an adulterer or an unmarried non-virgin. (Heck, characters worship different fictional deities; why is it so hard to accept a fictional homosexual?) If you try to make characters in a game set in a different world, with its own ethics and faiths, adhere to your personal ethics, after all, it won't go very well.

So there's more to this than "I think it's wrong". There's...


I suppose my gut reaction to homosexuality is "If you really want to do it, fine, just do it several miles away from me." And, in RL, I don't personally know any gay people, which suits me fine.
...a disgusted gut reaction that's Not Okay, above and beyond any religious prohibitions, and is probably why you so easily accept "It's Wrong" as a tenet of your faith (which, after all, not all religious folks do).
You need to work on that. It's not a rational or healthy way to react. In fact it's--dare I say it?--downright, yes, homophobic.
Especially since you DO know gay people. One in ten folks are gay; more than that are queer in some fashion. So yes, you do know gay people--they just haven't come out and told you.
And is there any wonder why?


Having thought over my likely actions a bit more carefully, I'd still say no as a DM (though I'd also say no to anyone who wanted more than a PG game), but as a player I'd say no at first, then find a group that fit me better if the other was determined. And the hostility mentioned previously would not be directed at the player, though I may give him/her some funny looks for a while.
That's a major overreaction. If you leave a game every time anyone plays a character who doesn't follow your strict ethics, it'll be very hard to find a game.

Here's the thing: your ethics are your own, but it's not your business to throw up when two guys kiss, or to protest. It affects no one but them, andit would be healthier to learn to deal with it.

Cryopyre
2007-07-19, 02:33 AM
[QUOTE=Prustan;2901837]I didn't mean to sound quite as defensive or homophobic as I did. I believe myself to be quite mature, but I have been raised with strong values of (what my faith considers to be) right and wrong, and homosexuality is one of those wrong things.
[QUOTE]

They've proved that being gay is in genes. So like it or not, being gay is like being black, you're born that way.

On the same note, you don't play a black character to be stereotypically black, but if you want to play a black character because you want to, go ahead.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-19, 02:42 AM
They've proved that being gay is in genes. So like it or not, being gay is like being black, you're born that way.

While you *are* born that way, it isn't necessarily just genetic. There is no "gay gene", at least. Identical twins are more likely to be gay if the other is gay, but not guaranteed.
It's indubitably a combination of a number of things, including chemical reactions during pregnancy.
Not that that matters.

Cryopyre
2007-07-19, 02:55 AM
While you *are* born that way, it isn't necessarily just genetic. There is no "gay gene", at least. Identical twins are more likely to be gay if the other is gay, but not guaranteed.
It's indubitably a combination of a number of things, including chemical reactions during pregnancy.
Not that that matters.

Yes, true. On a side nitpicking note, the Identical twin thing etc. is actually related to the fact that there is a natural chemical inherited at birth that will suppress the effects of genes.

You can aquire these chemicals when pregnant by eating certain foods or from either parent.

Ruerl
2007-07-19, 03:47 AM
One of the more interesting aspects of playing a gay character would in my eyes be the focus on the setting, if you are playing say a low fantasy setting wich is heavedly inspired by medieval times, then the gay character might very well have a huge problem by being an active gay character as this could -litterally- get him killed.

In turn that could lead to a lot of emotional roleplaying, the gay character pretending not to be gay, having the emotions bottled up inside and trying to "combat" it, I see some excellent roleplaying possibility in that.

...but then, I always liked the soft part of roleplaying and disliked the "kick-in-the-door" style ;)


They've proved that being gay is in genes. So like it or not, being gay is like being black, you're born that way.

Nothing of that sort is actually proven, only proven thing towards homosexuality is that its a relationship between two of the same gender and that its puredly natural as it happens in nature all the time as well. (so much for the "unnatural" argument ;) )

Roog
2007-07-19, 04:19 AM
I didn't mean to sound quite as defensive or homophobic as I did. I believe myself to be quite mature, but I have been raised with strong values of (what my faith considers to be) right and wrong, and homosexuality is one of those wrong things.
Having thought over my likely actions a bit more carefully, I'd still say no as a DM (though I'd also say no to anyone who wanted more than a PG game), but as a player I'd say no at first, then find a group that fit me better if the other was determined. And the hostility mentioned previously would not be directed at the player, though I may give him/her some funny looks for a while.

So how do you feel about characters that:
Worship false Gods?
Build Idols?
Blaspheme or swear false oaths?
Ignore holy days?
Disrespect their Mother and Father?
Murder?
Commit adultery?
Steal?
Commit perjury?
Desire what is not theirs?

Would you "find a group that fit me better" if other players had characters who did any of these things.

Dhavaer
2007-07-19, 04:33 AM
So how do you feel about characters that:
Worship false Gods?
Build Idols?
Blaspheme or swear false oaths?
Ignore holy days?
Disrespect their Mother and Father?
Murder?
Commit adultery?
Steal?
Commit perjury?
Desire what is not theirs?

I'm going to tack 'eats shellfish' onto that.

That said, we're getting both off topic and into banned topics. So let's get back ot discussing whether dwarves are gayer than elves. I say yes, as in many depictions they have an enormous amount of males relative to females.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-19, 05:31 AM
Well, it may be that they just can't find mates. Which is also probably why so many of them are so angry, and are alcoholics.

Think about it, it makes sense doesn't it?

Dhavaer
2007-07-19, 05:37 AM
Think about it, it makes sense doesn't it?

Of course! The dwarves are grouchy because they're sexually unfulfilled. But being grouchy gives them a negative racial charisma modifier, so it assures that they're sexually unfulfilled. It's all a vicious cycle that can only be stopped by constantly casting mass eagle's splendour!

The Glyphstone
2007-07-19, 05:48 AM
Of course! The dwarves are grouchy because they're sexually unfulfilled. But being grouchy gives them a negative racial charisma modifier, so it assures that they're sexually unfulfilled. It's all a vicious cycle that can only be stopped by constantly casting mass eagle's splendour!

Or by just getting everyone else drunk enough that said dwarves start looking attractive after all...

Dhavaer
2007-07-19, 05:49 AM
Or by just getting everyone else drunk enough that said dwarves start looking attractive after all...

Which would explain the dwarven attraction to alcohol. Strange that the beer goggles spells were created by a gnome, really.

lukelightning
2007-07-19, 06:30 AM
I'm going to tack 'eats shellfish' onto that.


In Dungeons and Dragons, shellfish eats you.
:smallbiggrin:

Dhavaer
2007-07-19, 06:44 AM
In Dungeons and Dragons, shellfish eats you.
:smallbiggrin:

At least unless you hit its weak spot for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Solo
2007-07-19, 06:47 AM
Doesn't it get a reflex save though?

captain_decadence
2007-07-19, 06:55 AM
Wow, this topic has been interesting. Though the funny looks I get from the people around me as they read the bottom of my screen "Sexuality and D&D" have been more interesting.

First of all, sexuality comes up quite often in some of the games I play and not at all in others. I have had games where everyone had families (which means they must have some kind of sexuality) and games where no one even flirted with a bar wench. I have also been involved in games where characters have had love interests both on and off screen. It´s just kinda how the game flows rather than any decisions we´ve made before hand. So to the people that say sexuality is not important in D&D, that´s your D&D. My D&D is a lot more like real people. Their sexuality is a part of them (not a defining trait) so it has come up before.

And to answer the question if anybody has had an on-screen romance in their games, I have. I was playing a 2nd Edition game with some friends and I was playing a "quick" style fighter who was a reformed desert bandit. He ended up having a relationship with an amazon-esque warrior in the party. The thing is, both of us were guys, but we played the relationship up because we felt that it made sense. Especially because I kept getting badly hurt in battles (I made my character for roleplaying rather than effectiveness...whoops) and she (or he, whatever) would always rush in to protect me.

Also, I have been seriously making one of my characters gay, especially because she has been dealing with other identity problems (she is a cleric who is having a semi-crisis of faith and has been having lots of (verbal) fights with her traveling companions about some of their choices). I may end up having her change the god she worships or at least switch aspects of the goddess that she currently follows. In this case, coming to realize her sexuality would fit becuase she is trying to reconcile her place in the world and her sexuality is just one more thing that she must figure out before she can really find her place.

When your party is actually a really loose group that has conflicting religious, social and moral standards, having someone be gay is not nearly as bad as having your rouge worship a dark god or your halfling druid conspire against the kingdom because she believes it is out of balance.

Green Bean
2007-07-19, 07:04 AM
So let's get back ot discussing whether dwarves are gayer than elves. I say yes, as in many depictions they have an enormous amount of males relative to females.

In the campaign I'm in now, dwarf gender is more or less indistinguishable unless you get them to remove their clothes, even to other dwarves. Our dwarf fighter seems to always end up accidentally hitting on dudes. (And yes, the DM does read Terry Pratchett)

Dhavaer
2007-07-19, 07:10 AM
Doesn't it get a reflex save though?

No, once you hit the weak spot it's MASSIVE DAMAGE all the way.

Getting back on topic, the one on-screen relationship I was part of as a player (I've been DM in a few more, but that's a little different because it's harder getting into the character, I find) was right here on the boards, in the game In Storm and Sunshine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16464&page=20) (it's an old game, so the punctuation marks got warped in the server move. The url goes straight to the beginning of the romance portion). That was a very, very good game all round, but unfortunately it suffered a little from player turnover and eventually the DM went on hiatus.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-07-19, 07:23 AM
RE: Onscreen romances


Too numerous to count. Dealing with the party's relationship issues has become a staple of my group's play style, apparently. That, and other varieties of character angst. Usually we've got few players and everyone, myself the DM included, has more than one PC, so only about half of the onscreen romances involve two players; sometimes, it's two characters belonging to the same player. There are have been bit more of these off screen over the years.

Love triangles have become a big hit lately and only seem to keep getting more tangled. Most of these relationships are too unsuitable for helpful measures such as polyamory/polygamy to function, or at least to function properly, so it just keeps going 'round until something explodes or we find a way to cool things off a bit (to avoid the explosion... and prolong the love triangle, inevitably).

Aasimar
2007-07-19, 11:10 AM
I'm playing a gay character in a Starwars game. It came up when we started and the GM said: "I wanna try something, you guys may, if you wish, roll for a random character quirk on this sheet, don't worry it's not bad or anything, just a quirk, and if you do, you get to roll for a little bonus on this other sheet as well" I did, and that's how my female scoundrel turned out gay.

I'd say I've roleplayed it pretty well, and avoided the pitfalls of 'lesbian chainmail-bikini drow syndrome'. It actually doesn't come up much in-game. She rejected the advances from a guy once. And now her personal story-arc of saving her girlfriend from a Mandalorian prison ship is coming to a close. Otherwise it hasn't mattered one bit.

My group doesn't mind at all.

horseboy
2007-07-19, 11:50 AM
How many people have actually had an 'onscreen' romance in a game, gay or otherwise?

Well, there was my t'skrang (lizardman) with the hair fetish. My mage who fell for an NPC ranger in a Ravenloft campaign. Then there was that Caitiff, Toreador, Bagherra love triangle we had going in a WoD game. Oh, and the time my Rhorrihimrim was seduced by a bar maid.

Those are the ones that come readily to mind anyway.

Tengu
2007-07-19, 12:30 PM
Well, there was my t'skrang (lizardman) with the hair fetish.

But... aren't t'skrang hairless?

Roland St. Jude
2007-07-19, 12:57 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: If you believe something violates a rule or that the thread should be locked, please report the offending post(s). Please do not speculate on whether or when it will be locked or otherwise add irrelevant "in before the lock" nonsense posts. They're spam, really.

On a more substantive note, this thread is trending a bit RL (real life) political/religious. Don't. To the extent that this topic requires a discussion of real life political, religious, or politicized issues, it can't be had here under our rules. That includes attempting to challenging each others real world belief on such issues.

Finally, this thread has, at times, approached our rule against sexually explicit content. PG-13 is a good, if rough, guideline for the sexual explicitness permitted here. Try and stay on the non-explicit side of that line.

When in doubt, on any of these issues, you'd be well-advised to simply not post. No Infraction has ever been given or thread locked because someone didn't post that comment they suspected was borderline.

lukelightning
2007-07-19, 01:03 PM
But... aren't t'skrang hairless?

I guess they find hair exotic?

horseboy
2007-07-19, 02:19 PM
I guess they find hair exotic?

Right on 1 :smallwink: At least he did.

manda_babylon
2007-07-19, 06:06 PM
In our gaming group, it's hard to get people to play straight characters. Our group consists of one bisexual female, one straight female, three lesbians [two of which are married IRL], one homosexual male, and a bisexual male crossdresser [who is engaged to the bisexual female].

Right now, we're running three games. In one, we currently have two gay couples, two straight couples, where in both, the women are pretending to be men, though one of the women has had sexual relations with a woman in the game. In the second game, we have a straight guy who hits on everything, a woman with no sexual interest in anyone, two gay men, a bisexual vampire, and a religious and sheltered boy who was just raped in the game by a male NPC as a plot point. In the last game, all of our characters are a revolving door of every sort of sexuality and sexual behavior, including other species. Yikes.

No one can tell you what a group will be comfortable with, other than that group. It depends on the GM as to how much sexuality will play in the game.

However, in our group, it comes up a great deal in terms of the Charm Person spell/talent. Generally, at character generation, the player specifies which gender they want to be able to charm. If a female chooses 'Charm Male,' and she uses it on a homosexual, it will have no effect. However, it will work on a lesbian, provided she is not hostile to the caster. Creatures that only affect a specific gender will go after their sexuality, instead. That's how we roll, and it works out for us.

Which brings me to:


I've been working on character ideas for my next campaign and I've been considering playing a male cross-dresser for my next character. I'd probably play a bard, rogue, or wizard, or maybe a ranger.

The character won't neccessarely be gay, he might just enjoy wearing womans clothes, makeup or maybe he likes gender neutral clothes and jewelry and just gets mistaken for a girl alot.

There are two parts to this question...

1. Who should being a cross-dresser work michanically, for the active cross-dresser I assume I just make disquise checks, but for what system should I use for a character who just gets mistaken for a female a lot.

2. Race: I'm tring to consider which race out of the PHB would make the best cross-dresser. I've condiered the changling but the actual ability to change gender is too much of an easy solution for me. I'm not just asking who would make he prettiest or easiest gender bender, I'm asking what paticulair things do you think a halfling, dwarven or half-orc etc. cross dresser would do to look more feminine?

It might surprise you to know that most crossdressers are NOT gay. So to say he won't 'necessarily be gay' is an assumption that many would be very offended by.

In our game, we bank on the real life mechanics of crossdressing. If someone is trying to 'pass,' they usually gussy themselves up into carictures of whichever gender they are attempting to assume, and immediately trip some people's radars. This would be the equivalent of rolling a Disguise check and having someone see through it.

However, the secret to successful crossdressing is not a falsetto voice, fake breasts, and a miniskirt. These won't help one bit, and will, 9 times out of 10, cause you to fail at passing. The secret is knowing that as soon as people meet or see another person, they immediately assign them a gender, mentally. If they can't, they find that distressing, so it's usually decided pretty quickly, one way or another. The secret to being taken as another gender is to play at gender neutrality. [Think V, and the "alignment=male; gender=true neutral" joke] If our player who runs a crossdresser is going out, he specifies which gender he is dressed as. Only a particularly savvy NPC will not believe whatever he is. This can be determined by a Wisdom check or another system the GM devises.

As for races, it would actually be easier to be a non-human, like an Orc or a Dwarf, since many humans may not be certain how to tell the difference between them. However, an elf or half-elf may work best, if you're looking for a pretty sort of character. Women see men crossdressing and think, oh, that's not a girl, it must be a pretty man, and men see the man crossdressing and think, oh, that's too girly to be a man, it must be a woman. This works a good deal of the time, if the man in question is androgynous enough. Otherwise, go for the mystique of a race most would be less familiar with.

And one more thing I didn't understand:


I wouldn't play a gay character around 12 year olds, most of us won't it would be improper, even though at that age kids should be learning about sex at this time in their lives, trust me 12 years olds are curious about sex at this age even if the hormones haven't kicked in yet.

Why on earth wouldn't you play a gay character around a 12-year-old? Kids as young as 5 are playing D&D, and other games, and they are most assuredly coming into contact with heterosexuals and heterosexuality in them and in every other place in their lives. How would it be improper to play a person, in any context?

Sir_Banjo
2007-07-19, 07:11 PM
I was thinking of creating an openly gay character for my next campaign, and I was wondering what sort of reaction I would get. In my gaming group, people might feel a bit awkward, but they wouldn't really mind. But in other groups, this character might not be as acceptable. Any comments on characters with "alternate" sexualities? Feel free to speak your mind, but due to the nature of this topic I would really like it if no one did any flaming (good way to get this thread shut down fast). Any thoughts?

Is your character an elf? It totally wouldn't matter if he's an elf. Even dwarves probably have no idea half the time, what with everyone wearing beards and all.

Seriously though, I don't see why it should be a problem in this day and age. I would be prepared to expect a bit of prejudice within the campaign world and this might in turn be a reflection of some of the feelings of the members in your group. My advice is to just ask your fellow players how they feel about it and work it from there.

If you're playing a chick though, don't turn her into a skank. There's not a thing in the 'verse that worse than a gamer getting his vicarious lesbian kicks at the game table.

EDIT: And to manda_babylon, wow. That's some group you've got there.

tainsouvra
2007-07-19, 07:24 PM
Why on earth wouldn't you play a gay character around a 12-year-old? Kids as young as 5 are playing D&D, and other games, and they are most assuredly coming into contact with heterosexuals and heterosexuality in them and in every other place in their lives. How would it be improper to play a person, in any context? I believe that would be because most people find it inappropriate to focus on sexuality before one's teenage years. It's not so much the fact that the character is gay so much as the fact that the character's sexuality is noteworthy.

I wasn't the person you're quoting, so naturally I can't know for sure, but that was my interpretation when I read it.

Corolinth
2007-07-19, 07:29 PM
Whenever I hear someone spout off a comment like that, the first thing that comes to mind is that they've clearly forgotten what they were like when they were twelve. We like to pretend that twelve and thirteen year olds are sweet and innocent, and completely ignorant of all of the naughty things in the world. We want so fervently to believe this, that we forget that when we were twelve, we were hoarding bra & panty ads or swiping our Dad's Playboy magazines, and had just discovered the five knuckle shuffle.

Talya
2007-07-19, 07:29 PM
I believe that would be because most people find it inappropriate to focus on sexuality before one's teenage years. It's not so much the fact that the character is gay so much as the fact that the character's sexuality is noteworthy.

I wasn't the person you're quoting, so naturally I can't know for sure, but that was my interpretation when I read it.

That's the thing, it doesn't need to be noteworthy. You can be gay or bisexual without making it some major part of your identifying personality.

Aasimar
2007-07-19, 07:33 PM
That's the thing, it doesn't need to be noteworthy. You can be gay or bisexual without making it some major part of your identifying personality.

I just wish more gay and bisexual people understood this. (and many straight people too, come to think of it)

Talya
2007-07-19, 07:39 PM
I just wish more gay and bisexual people understood this. (and many straight people too, come to think of it)


It's a huge deal to go through, even realizing it yourself, and a bigger deal to put up with the stuff around you that objects to it, so it's rather hard to relegate it to the backgound as far as heterosexuals do. (Although, perhaps it's signal-to-noise ratio stuff...when I'm with girls talking about how hot a guy is, nobody thinks anything of it. If I were to mention how hot a girl is, damn right it would bring the conversation to a halt.)

But that's the thing, it doesn't need to. You can play a gay character exactly the same as a straight one. There's no need to make it an "issue," even if there is romance/sex in the campaign. What makes it an issue is the first time you try to hit on that cute barmaid, and everyone goes, "Huh? But ..."

tainsouvra
2007-07-19, 07:44 PM
That's the thing, it doesn't need to be noteworthy. You can be gay or bisexual without making it some major part of your identifying personality. I agree completely, but that's my explanation of the quoted person's reasoning, and for any more we'll have to wait for his return.

Although, in fairness, the very fact that the concept was "gay character" makes it part of your identifying personality, making a character then having his orientation be gay would be different. Making a character then making it gay is different from making a gay character, the order it happens in one's head has a significant impact on the creation's identity.

Talya
2007-07-19, 07:49 PM
Although, in fairness, the very fact that the concept was "gay character" makes it part of your identifying personality, making a character then having his orientation be gay would be different. Making a character then making it gay is different from making a gay character, the order it happens in one's head has a significant impact on the creation's identity.


Absolutely. And if you have to ask a message board what they think of the idea, chances are, it's a big deal to you. Which is not unsurprising. It is different, and different draws attention.

Corolinth
2007-07-19, 08:46 PM
Which only stands to reason, because for a large number of people, playing a homosexual is a fairly big deal. It opens up questions that can be uncomfortable, such as our motivation for playing the character: Is it just a character? Are we using the character to explore parts of our own personality? Some people resent the very fact that those questions arise, and those are just the questions we ask ourselves. Then there's the rest of the group at the table who may be wondering if we're subconsciously trying to tell them something. Sometimes, the player makes a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Every now and then, we get all worried about what the rest of the group is going to think, when in truth, it's not a very big deal at all. The sexist DM thread is a prime example of this. The poster was worried about causing a fight and the resulting hard feelings, but when she actually talked to her DM, everything worked out fine.

For a lot of straight (or presumably straight) males, playing a homosexual character is a big deal. We don't know what to think of it, or how to approach it. We worry what the rest of the guys will think, and if they'll be uncomfortable. Until we sit down at the table with our character sheet, we don't realize that playing a gay character is no different than playing a straight character. I suspect women face similar issues, although I don't know what was going through your head when you first made the decision to make your monk gay.

It's playing a character that's vastly different than what we're familiar with. It shouldn't be any different than playing an elf or a dwarf, except that elves and dwarves don't exist in the real world. We're free to imagine what an elf or a dwarf would be like, and act accordingly. The homosexual character is different in that homosexuals, unlike elves and dwarves, are real people. We're not making something up for our character, and sometimes that stretches our suspension of disbelief too far. It just hits a little too close to the real world for people.

By the same token, you've played in one of my campaigns. You know how "out there" I can get with character concepts and plotlines. You know where "the line" is for me, compared to a lot of other people. Now with all of the bizarre stuff that you've experienced, I want you to consider that my tabletop campaign doesn't contain anywhere near the level of debauchery you've been exposed to. There are no evil succubus queens trying to seduce the party arcane spellcaster. The reason: their wizard is played by my brother. I had no problem at all targeting you with a succubus. I have no problems targeting the rest of the party with a succubus, despite the other players being male. I'm sure a few of them would be uncomfortable with it, but I could do it. My brother? Not happening. It's just a little too weird for me.

And that's what it's like for some people when they think of playing a homosexual character.

Prustan
2007-07-19, 11:40 PM
So how do you feel about characters that:
Worship false Gods?
Build Idols?
Blaspheme or swear false oaths?
Ignore holy days?
Disrespect their Mother and Father?
Murder?
Commit adultery?
Steal?
Commit perjury?
Desire what is not theirs?

Would you "find a group that fit me better" if other players had characters who did any of these things.

I think this better be my last post here, but I do feel I should answer before I leave the thread.
A character doing most of the things listed here wouldn't phase me too much, since I do realize it is a game, and for most of them I can separate what the character is doing, and what the player wouldn't do. For D&D, adultery, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality are the things that would make me very uncomfortable. Murder and theft not as much (it's most of what you do in Shadowrun), and perjury would depend on the character. Everything in that list I would consider wrong in RL.

Sir_Banjo
2007-07-20, 05:25 AM
I feel inclined to paraphrase Mr Universe.

I love the GITP forums, you guys always bring me the best arguments. I particularly enjoy reading the really lengthy and occassionally heated responses this topic has returned. Hat's off to the OP it's been a bucket of apples.

Gay or not gay, so long as I don't have to listen to the details (because who honestly wants to sit at a table with a bunch of hot and horny gamers? honestly?!:smallannoyed: ) it's okay with me.

[scrubbed]

Me, I'm gonna go play some dnd.

paigeoliver
2007-07-20, 05:45 AM
A lot of how well a gay character is going to go over is also going to be based on the setting. For most of history in most places people simply couldn't be openly gay.

My own setting actually has a gay bar that the characters have ended up at several times, and several important gay npcs. We even have a organization type prestige class based around said gay bar. Although that is all in "the pirate kingdoms" which is a sailor and first generation immigrant heavy section of the world that has a severe gender imbalance. So homosexuality amongst men is much more accepted there then it is in the more conservative "Great Kingdom" or the highly religious Ruskavek.

Tengu
2007-07-20, 08:02 AM
We even have a organization type prestige class based around said gay bar.

What is the general outlook of the abilities of this prestige class?

paigeoliver
2007-07-20, 08:34 AM
The abilities it gives largely round out support type characters. Best for Marshals, bards and rogues. It alternates in advancing previous class abilities and adding new ones. The class doesn't actually require the character to be gay, but it does encourage them to avoid romantic involvement with women.

Tengu
2007-07-20, 08:38 AM
Ah, so it's a bit like the Manly Adventurer of Manliness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2226253#post2226253)?

Interesting campaign setting, by the way.

paigeoliver
2007-07-20, 08:48 AM
Same general idea yes, not the same implementation though.


Ah, so it's a bit like the Manly Adventurer of Manliness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2226253#post2226253)?

Interesting campaign setting, by the way.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-20, 09:31 AM
I think this better be my last post here, but I do feel I should answer before I leave the thread.
A character doing most of the things listed here wouldn't phase me too much, since I do realize it is a game, and for most of them I can separate what the character is doing, and what the player wouldn't do. For D&D, adultery, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality are the things that would make me very uncomfortable. Murder and theft not as much.

Given that murder and theft are clearly far more wrong...

why? Why does sex-related stuff bother you so much? Do you really think that's healthy?

Tweekinator
2007-07-20, 11:11 AM
Given that murder and theft are clearly far more wrong...

why? Why does sex-related stuff bother you so much? Do you really think that's healthy?

Perhaps because he has some morals/principles that he does not like to even pretend to cross/abandon.

Why do you feel the need to challenge him on that?

the_tick_rules
2007-07-20, 11:14 AM
well since it's a fantasy setting it's up to the dm to determine the world's opinion on homosexuality. if everyone is fine go with it.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-20, 11:14 AM
Perhaps because he has some morals/principles that he does not like to even pretend to cross/abandon.

Why do you feel the need to challenge him on that?

Because it's not healthy to be that hung up.

And also, because when someone goes, "murder? That's cool. But homosexuality, now that's wrong!"... can you see how that might be a little bit offensive?

Tweekinator
2007-07-20, 11:20 AM
Because it's not healthy to be that hung up.

And also, because when someone goes, "murder? That's cool. But homosexuality, now that's wrong!"... can you see how that might be a little bit offensive?

Except he didn't say that. He said those are things which make him uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. Not,"I hate sex and especially homosexuals! Whee!".

Starsinger
2007-07-20, 11:36 AM
Except he didn't say that. He said those are things which make him uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. Not,"I hate sex and especially homosexuals! Whee!".

But he did say that he could tolerate PCs violating the ten commandments, just not homosexuality.

Driderman
2007-07-20, 12:05 PM
Even though I agree that it's probably not a healthy view to find roleplaying murder and theft a-okay and roleplaying homosexuality disturbing, I think you may want to let this lie.
As far as I understand, Prustans views are decided by his religion, religions always being a touchy subject at best.
While I have my own views on religion and people who view the world through the eyes of their holy texts and like to debate them to no end, this is really not the discussion nor even the forum for it.
Seeing as Prustan already said he wouldn't post in this topic again, perhaps it would be best to move on before the thread becomes a debate on homosexuality in general instead of a debate on homosexuality in roleplaying games

tainsouvra
2007-07-20, 12:36 PM
And also, because when someone goes, "murder? That's cool. But homosexuality, now that's wrong!"... can you see how that might be a little bit offensive? Death and violence are inherent to D&D, so even if it's not something people like IRL, it's something they know they need to set aside before they sit at the gaming table. If one is playing D&D, he has already come to terms with in-game violence.

The same is not true of homosexuality, or sexuality in general. Some gaming groups include it, but it is not inherent to the system and it's not unreasonable for him to be taken by surprise if he sits down to play and it suddenly becomes a major plot event.

The RL implications of some previous statements, I won't touch, but the in-game ones aren't so esoteric. Blindsiding is blindsiding.

Superglucose
2007-07-20, 01:13 PM
Here's my opinion on sexuality and DnD: some players are homosexual, some are heterosexual. Almost all NPCs and PCs in my campaigns had better effing be ASEXUAL.

I mean, sure the King has a Queen and kids, so they must bump uglies, but honestly, I don't need my PCs telling me "I want to seduce the barmaid in the tavern." It's a waste of my time, and a waste of the rest of the parties.

I don't think sexuality belongs in D&D because of how private it is. And I don't mean that by 'oh it should be dealt with in private' but more like, you can't really handle it in a group. How many people can enjoy sex with each other in any given moment? 2. How many people are in a party? 4. Sorry folks, I want to keep everyone interested, and in my experience, that is best achieved by avoiding "I rolled a natural 1 on my climax check... does that mean she hates me?"

LotharBot
2007-07-20, 01:21 PM
I have some scattered thoughts:

1) thanks to Roland St. Jude for pushing this thread back on track. Some good discussion has taken place, and I'd hate to see it ruined. On that same front, I personally would appreciate if people would tone down the snide comments that don't actually break the rules but are meant to offend or attack certain people you disagree with. I can't demand it, but I do want to request it -- please, don't try to provoke people; I don't want to see this thread locked down.

2) Sexuality is a complicated thing. It definitely has genetic and biochemical components. People do have certain intrinsic attractions. But it's also an appetite that changes over time -- what you found "hot" at age 12 and what you find "hot" at age 30 should be different. Sometimes those changes are dramatic (in college, I had a friend whose dad was ex-gay), sometimes they're subtle (I'm less attracted to redheads than I used to be.) Some people's preferences broaden; some narrow. Sometimes attractions develop or fade for no apparent reason; sometimes they must be nurtured. Sometimes people consciously choose to focus their sexual energy differently; sometimes their focus changes and they don't know why. Let's not make the mistake of pretending -- either in this thread, or with your character in game -- that it's any simpler than that. If you are going to play up a character's sexuality, take all of this into account or you'll end up with a cartoon.

3) No matter what your sexual preference, there will be people who disapprove or think less of you for it for whatever reason. And that's OK -- you don't need their approval. If you're gay, you don't need Prustan's approval. If you're into old women, some people won't approve, but you don't need their approval. Same goes for being promiscuous, for having a foot fetish, for being monogamous, or for waiting until you're married. No matter what your style, there will be people who think you're "doing it wrong" and who insult you for it. If someone doesn't approve, don't get too bent out of shape by it and think you have to rub your sexuality in their face; it's not going to change them, and it's just going to make you miserable. Just let them be, and accept the fact that you're not going to change their minds.

4) Some people commented earlier about 12-year-olds. Yeah, we all know why 12-year-old boys take long showers. We all know where the sears catalog with the yearly bra sale ends up. And parents of those kids SHOULD be teaching them about sex. But, let's be very clear on this point, it's NOT OK to role-play explicit sexuality with a 12-year-old kid. Seriously, just don't do it.

5) If you do choose to play up your sexuality in D&D, make sure you understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, and make sure you can do it without causing problems with your group. The same is true if you want to, say, give graphic descriptions of the in-game violence you're engaging in (normally in my games it's "cartoon violence"; if someone sat down and gave detailed descriptions, I'd ask them to tone it down or leave.) The same is true if you want to play up religious aspects of your character (say, preaching to another character for the whole campaign.) Everyone has certain expectations of what's OK and not OK in their D&D game, so make sure you're not stepping all over your fellow players. If there's going to be a problem, somebody (you or them) may want to find a different group or at least sit out a few sessions.

Jayabalard
2007-07-20, 01:49 PM
Here's my opinion on sexuality and DnD: some players are homosexual, some are heterosexual. Almost all NPCs and PCs in my campaigns had better effing be ASEXUAL.

I mean, sure the King has a Queen and kids, so they must bump uglies, but honestly, I don't need my PCs telling me "I want to seduce the barmaid in the tavern." It's a waste of my time, and a waste of the rest of the parties.To some people, it's not a waste of time. Real people aren't asexual (except for some rare exceptions), so people who play D&D and want realistic, rounded characters are not going to be asexual.

there's alot of ground between "asexual" and "explicit on camera sexual activity" and it's worthwhile imo to venture off into that territory, at least a little bit.


How many people can enjoy sex with each other in any given moment? 2. nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean? say no more!


avoiding "I rolled a natural 1 on my climax check... does that mean she hates me?"This is something I just can't understand... why would people involve dice at all, especially in such an absurd fashion.

Superglucose
2007-07-20, 02:05 PM
It was a joke...

anyways. Casual flirting with the barmaid is one thing, actually gathering romantic relationships is usually a no-no with my group. It tends to dominate the DM, jsut as in real life a romantic relationship dominates two people's time.

Corolinth
2007-07-20, 04:04 PM
4) Some people commented earlier about 12-year-olds. Yeah, we all know why 12-year-old boys take long showers. We all know where the sears catalog with the yearly bra sale ends up. And parents of those kids SHOULD be teaching them about sex. But, let's be very clear on this point, it's NOT OK to role-play explicit sexuality with a 12-year-old kid. Seriously, just don't do it.I don't think anybody has tried to suggest that role-playing explicit sexuality with a 12 year-old kid is okay. What's been suggested instead is that the entire argument of the 12 year-old kid is nothing more than a ridiculous smokescreen. The notion that some boys like girls, while some boys like other boys isn't above and beyond what a 12 year-old can grasp. They have enough understanding of the facts of life that the concept of homosexuality isn't going to overload their tender brains. The presence of "The Gay"(tm) does not mean that any explicit sex is happening.

That the Hero get the Girl is a staple of fantasy literature. Nobody complains about explicit sexual content when Prince Charming rescues whatever fairy tale princess is locked away in a tower this week (my three year-old niece is probably watching a Barbie movie with such a plot as we speak). Suddenly when the Hero gets the Guy, it's explicit sexual content and we need to think of the children? That's just a smokescreen to cover up one's own homophobia, and that's what I was trying to point out with my comment about the Sears catalog.

Jayabalard
2007-07-20, 04:27 PM
I think you need to double check what the term "explicit sexual content" means... I highly doubt that your 3 year old niece is watching a barbie movie with the kind of content he's talking about unless she's watching Barbie does Dallas.

Driderman
2007-07-20, 04:33 PM
Still, it's a very valid point...

TSGames
2007-07-20, 04:48 PM
I was thinking of creating an openly gay character for my next campaign, and I was wondering what sort of reaction I would get. In my gaming group, people might feel a bit awkward, but they wouldn't really mind. But in other groups, this character might not be as acceptable. Any comments on characters with "alternate" sexualities? Feel free to speak your mind, but due to the nature of this topic I would really like it if no one did any flaming (good way to get this thread shut down fast). Any thoughts?
This would be quite unacceptable in every group in which I have played or DMed. DnD for my groups has always been about the thrill of adventure, vanquishing enemies, saving or condemning the innocent; epic and heroic, or devious and villainous adventures. Alternate sexuality would take emphasis away from that would spoil the game for everyone, probably ending in the death of that character.

This, of course, assumes that it matters. People often says lots of things in their character backstories but don't actually let them have any effect on the actions or personalty of the character, in which case, it wouldn't matter, but would still be slightly disturbing.

paigeoliver
2007-07-20, 09:08 PM
Also many campaign worlds are different. In my world the characters easily spend as much time with shopping and romantic interests as they do adventuring. Actually, they probably spend MORE time on that real life sort of thing than they do actually adventuring. Of course 50 percent of my players are female, so that has something to with the direction the campaign has taken (my female players are highly interested in their character's personal lives, which has rubbed off on all the other players).

Enzario
2007-07-20, 10:07 PM
Hmmm. Hello all. I've been sick for the past week or so, and I haven't been posting or checking on this forum. So I find it interesting how this thread has developed, and even more interested in the discussions that have popped up. I have to applaud you on the fact that overall everyone here has been very tolerant and has meaningfully contributed to the debate discussion (and for those of you that intentionally or not nudged the thread off course, a severe finger-wagging to you :smalltongue:).

My two copper pieces:
I agree with the majority here that sexuality is just the same as any other character trait, also with respect to the fact that it shouldn't be overplayed. Although I disagree with several people here that "openly gay" means that sexual relations are implicit. I feel that it shouldn't be so strange that a homosexual person would want to stay chaste until marriage.

I will reiterate what Roland St. Jude said: no direct confrontations of real-life political/religious/whatever views, and keep everything as PG-13 as possible. That shouldn't be so hard, right? I mean, we've all seen those "PG-13" Disney "family" movies.

Keep it up, guys.

Superglucose
2007-07-20, 10:07 PM
I've really never seen a rp group do anything with sex. Sometimes romance... maybe. But even then it was nothing more than say, some poor guy whining to the party NG cleric saying "Oh I wish I had {insert art object stored in nearest monster hole} to give to my lover." I don't want my groups to start roleplaying sex/relationships, heterosexual OR homosexual. Seriously... especially the guys I play with, all of them are overweight, ugly, and I do believe don't understand at all how to shower, let alone attract women.

And I believe I am included in that group as well, though I do shower...

paigeoliver
2007-07-20, 10:35 PM
Sex is fairly common in my games, although we sort of fast forward through it. It isn't described, or roleplayed, it is just stated that it happened, and then we usually jump to different characters (since invariably it happens when the party is separated).

bosssmiley
2007-07-21, 07:15 AM
Ow wow! In a game world where people regularly date outside their species (half-dragons, aasimars, tieflings, genasi, etc.) and where feats like Lich-loved exist the OP is wondering about the reaction an openly gay character will get.

I'd say 'probably not much'.

What the character chooses to do and with whom is his business; and no-one's liable to question the lifestyle choices of the typical D&D murderous hobo of godlike power hero. :smallamused:

Caelestion
2007-07-21, 12:19 PM
No one likes being told that their precious beliefs are wrong or that other people heinously flaunt their different vews in complete contravention of said precious views. Unfortunately, it tends to be the people with the strongest views that also have the biggest mouths.

Narmoth
2007-07-21, 12:42 PM
Well, I guess if a person want's to play according to his or her orientation, no one would mind in my group. If a person claiming to be straight desides to play gay, agian in my group, we wouldn't even get out of town, since all we would do would be telling gay jokes.
Also, when it comes to sexuallity, I think the most disturbing encounter in my gaming was the voyeur lish that wore nothing under his robe.


As for the people asking "why"--why the heck not? Nobody asks questions when someone wants to play an elf, or a dwarf, or a character who used to be a baker, or anything else--why is sexual orientation important? And it IS nice to see less heteronormative parties occasionally, for those of us who don't swing the usual way.
¨
Anyone wanting to play elf are gay or girl. Period

Caelestion
2007-07-21, 12:45 PM
Frankly, the very concept of decayed undead partaking in sexual acts is WAY more freaky than two people of the same gender getting their rocks off together. That goes double if said decayed undead (probably a lich) happens to be one of your parents.

PnP Fan
2007-07-21, 01:30 PM
Wow, complicated topic, and I've not read everything in the thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating others' sentiments. . .
1. Be careful how you play the openly gay character, especially if you may/do have homosexuals at your table. Sexual/romantic relationships do come up at my table sometimes, including hetero/homo/interspecies (two female players playing a female dragonborn and a female were rat, very weird nights. . . , as well as two male players playing a male human and a female elf, also weird). But without a doubt, at our table, it's all comic releif from the more dramatic parts of the game, really just an excuse to make bad jokes about romance and sex (hetero and homo). If your table doesn't share the same sense of humor, or isn't completely confident with their own sexual natures, then you could run into problems.
2. Again, what is your motivation for doing so. That your statement suggests "a gay character" implies that the concept relies more on being gay, than being a character. This has been covered already, but you need to consider it.
3. Do you have the "right' to play whatever you please? Of course. But the other folks at the table also have the right to leave. The game is about fun, if you start impinging on other people's fun, because they are uncomfortable, then you need to reconsider things. I've seen people drop out of games for similar reasons, and playing a "gay/purple/hairy/etc. . character" isn't really worth it, imo. (I'm not talking about childish fits of "I wanted to play the wizard", I'm talking about people who become deeply offended or uncomfortable around the game table.)

my two copper.
Good luck with whatever it is you are trying to do.

EntilZha
2007-07-21, 01:49 PM
I'm guy playing a straight guy in my current campaign, a sorcerer who's a real horndog. And I get the feeling that's pushing it right to the edge.

I occasionally like to play female characters, but refrain from doing so if it will upset the apple cart, if you will, in the group I'm a part of.

Basically, if you have any doubts, even after discussing it with your gaming group, it's probably best to think of another concept.

PaladinBoy
2007-07-21, 05:55 PM
Huh. I might be a little disturbed by a homosexual character, but ultimately what happens in the bedroom is only the business of the people who do it. It's not my place to tell them that they're wrong for it. Particularly in DnD, where you have much weirder things happening than that.

Sexuality isn't really a big part of our games anyway. We're all male, and none of us are homosexual. I would like to do a romance story for my character, but since the DM, who happens to be my twin brother, would have to roleplay the other side.......

The farthest into this territory we've ventured was one time when I was DMing, and mentioned what the male villains were planning to do to the female prisoner.

LotharBot
2007-07-22, 06:56 PM
ultimately what happens in the bedroom is only the business of the people who do it.

But ultimately what's discussed at your gaming table is the business of everyone sitting at the gaming table. "Private" sexuality isn't so private if other players are being involved in the role-playing of that sexuality, or having to listen to you talk about it while they wait for their turn to come around.

My wife and I recently built some characters who, completely accidentally, ended up being the same race, compatible alignments, serving the same deity, and had some very similar personality traits. We decided that, while a romance between the characters would be perfectly natural and easy for us to role-play, it wouldn't make the game more FUN for our other players. So we left it as an implication in the campaign epilogue -- the characters went off to found a temple "together", and that's as far as we took it. It just wouldn't make sense, in our group, to sit there flirting with each other mid-game. It wasn't the sort of game where anyone's sexuality was particularly loudly expressed, so we kept a lid on it.

Other groups may be different. In other groups, playing a character whose sexual preferences are "front and center" might be perfectly reasonable, whether gay, straight, cross-species, or anything else. That's why it's so important to check with your group.

Raistlin1040
2007-07-22, 07:17 PM
I think that if you played it like a trait, that's cool. Imagine being a DM, and having a new player join. Would you rather he say

"Hi, I'm Nick. My character is James, he's a Human Rogue. He's got blonde hair, green eyes, stands close to 6 feet tall, and has a British accent. He's also gay."

Or

"Hi, I'm Nick. My character is James, the Gay Rogue"

If you treat it like any other trait, and stay away from turning into a stereotype, or doing it in such a flaimboyant fashion that it turns into either a joke or a disruption at the table, I say go for it.

NerfTW
2007-07-23, 08:46 AM
I think the only major issue here is that people treat "gay" as some absurd class that works on a completly different ruleset than "straight".

Your sexuality shouldn't define your entire being. People like that, straight and gay, are very shallow. If that's what your character is, then go for it.

You also should think about your group. Will they be bothered by it? Look at it this way. If I decide that my male character constantly hits on a female party member, does she have the right to be bothered and ask me OOC to stop?

Yes. And the same applies to gay characters. I've been called a homophobe for getting angry at a gay waiter who was hitting on me, and talking about sex without any instigation by me. The thing he couldn't understand was that, like women, guys don't want to be hit on by someone they don't know or like. And I enjoy it when other gay men that I know hit on me, it makes me feel handsome. The difference is that I know them.

Basically, your character's sexuality shouldn't be overtaking the group, gay or straight, unless the other members agree to it. D&D is foremost a co-operative game, and people tend to forget that when making thier characters. You wouldn't make a Paladin when playing an evil group, and you wouldn't make a character who spends all his time chasing women/men while the rest of the party is trying to save the kingdom.


In short, this is really a private matter for each individual group to discuss.

Ramza00
2007-07-23, 06:34 PM
I believe that would be because most people find it inappropriate to focus on sexuality before one's teenage years. It's not so much the fact that the character is gay so much as the fact that the character's sexuality is noteworthy.

I wasn't the person you're quoting, so naturally I can't know for sure, but that was my interpretation when I read it.

Pretty much you nailed it.

I would have no problem playing a "gay character" with someone less than 12, I just wouldn't mention the character is gay, and I wouldn't do any sexual things with it, just like I wouldn't do the same with a heterosexual pc.

You can make the arguement about straight people marrying, with which I would respond well the gay character just lives in the same house/room as his close friend.

You can say I am tiptoeing around the issue, and I am to some extent, it is called decoruam, and not trying to turn everything into an issue or war. There will be plenty of time for kids after 12 to see good gay rolemodels. Finally while kids under 12 are interested in sex due to natural curosity, almost all have not entered physical puberty and thus are physically interested in sex, and thus have less of an attention span to sex for other things are more interesting and relevant.

Ramza00
2007-07-23, 06:58 PM
That the Hero get the Girl is a staple of fantasy literature. Nobody complains about explicit sexual content when Prince Charming rescues whatever fairy tale princess is locked away in a tower this week (my three year-old niece is probably watching a Barbie movie with such a plot as we speak). Suddenly when the Hero gets the Guy, it's explicit sexual content and we need to think of the children? That's just a smokescreen to cover up one's own homophobia, and that's what I was trying to point out with my comment about the Sears catalog.
Yes as a gay man, I am homophobic *sarcasm*

No it isn’t about homophobic, it is about good taste, and trying not to create conflict. Let look at what I said again. I said it in response to this quote


The few times I've had a group to play with, all the players have been rather young, so sex didn't come up at all. That said, I personally would be very uncomfortable, if not outright hostile, around a gay character. And before anyone starts flaming or anything, I'd act much the same to an evil character.


Please calm down. I wouldn't play a gay character around 12 year olds, most of us won't it would be improper, even though at that age kids should be learning about sex at this time in their lives, trust me 12 years olds are curious about sex at this age even if the hormones haven't kicked in yet.

Note he said he plays with kids. I told him what I would personally would do in such a situation. Not because talking homosexuality is wrong with a 12 year old, but because it is impromper, at least in my mind, in my opinion it is impromper to have a roleplaying focus about sex.

Furthermore I must further explained the age I picked was a purposeful age, 12 and under I would not play a gay character and draw attention to his sexuality (discreetly or undiscreetly) not because I am prudish about sex, but because some other people are prudish about sex at those ages (or don’t want their kids around sex) and thus it is better not to start conflicts. Age 13 and up I would have less of a problem for you are becoming an adult and you need to start taking responsibility for your actions. I would do it in taste, but if you want an asexual game find a different group or I would find a different group if I am the only one who wants it.

12-13 is where I seen kids stop being kids and start being teenagers

4) Some people commented earlier about 12-year-olds. Yeah, we all know why 12-year-old boys take long showers. We all know where the sears catalog with the yearly bra sale ends up. And parents of those kids SHOULD be teaching them about sex. But, let's be very clear on this point, it's NOT OK to role-play explicit sexuality with a 12-year-old kid. Seriously, just don't do it.
I disagree about parents teaching them about sex, parents should be the primary person and the main one.

I am in complete agreement with the bold comment, there is no reason a stranger, even an older friend should be teaching the kid about sex, furthermore role playing explicit sexuality is a no no.. Then again with a gay character you don’t need to explicitly roleplay sex, sex does not equate sexuality/sexual orientation.

Talya
2007-07-23, 07:05 PM
Ramza00,

I think you missed Corolinth's point.

He said that nobody considers it explicit if the hero gets the girl (assuming nothing explicit is shown), but suddenly if the hero gets the guy, it's considered explicit content kids shouldn't be exposed to (despite that nothing explicit is shown.)

It's a double standard. Gay or straight are the same thing, when it comes to the "explicitness" of them. Romance does not mean explicit sex, regardless of the genders involved.

prufock
2007-07-23, 07:11 PM
How many people can enjoy sex with each other in any given moment?

At least three.

Caelestion
2007-07-23, 07:12 PM
At least three.
I think that is getting wildly off the topic, you know :)

Ramza00
2007-07-23, 07:17 PM
Ramza00,

I think you missed Corolinth's point.

He said that nobody considers it explicit if the hero gets the girl (assuming nothing explicit is shown), but suddenly if the hero gets the guy, it's considered explicit content kids shouldn't be exposed to (despite that nothing explicit is shown.)

It's a double standard. Gay or straight are the same thing, when it comes to the "explicitness" of them. Romance does not mean explicit sex, regardless of the genders involved.

And a male friend rescuing his male friend from childhood could be about sex, or it could be about friendship. With 12 year olds, I would leave the detail unsaid, just like I would leave the details of a male friend rescuing his childhood female friend or a female friend rescuing her childhood male friend.

Make sense?

------------------------

I would not consider a male friend rescuing a male friend explicit if it is unsaid. If a male friend is roleplayed as more than caring for his close friend and is in deeply in love than it is explicit. A women friend roleplaying as more than carrying for her close male friend is also explicit.

Talya
2007-07-23, 07:32 PM
And a male friend rescuing his male friend from childhood could be about sex, or it could be about friendship. With 12 year olds, I would leave the detail unsaid, just like I would leave the details of a male friend rescuing his childhood female friend or a female friend rescuing her childhood male friend.

Make sense?

------------------------

I would not consider a male friend rescuing a male friend explicit if it is unsaid. If a male friend is roleplayed as more than caring for his close friend and is in deeply in love than it is explicit. A women friend roleplaying as more than carrying for her close male friend is also explicit.


That may be how you consider it, but that's not how it is in popular entertainment for children. Most faerie tales (ha...faerie...no pun intended), books, comic books, children's television (above preschool) and even Disney movies contain romantic plots. There is no sex shown, or even implied (generally, apart from pregnancy), but the romantic element is there. People in general do not consider this explicit...until it involves two people of the same gender, oddly.

Starsinger
2007-07-23, 08:21 PM
faerie tales

Faerie tales! that's it! FABLE! I knew I've had this discussion before, it's just like when Fable came out and all the members of PATT (Parents Against Teaching Tolerance) came out of the woodwork, complaining about how it was okay to murder people, beat your wife, and the like, but marrying a man was immoral and would ruin the youth of America.

Caelestion
2007-07-24, 11:56 AM
I know, it's ridiculous, isn't it Starsinger? Being gay is worse than being a paedophile, it seems.

Ramza00
2007-07-24, 12:23 PM
That may be how you consider it, but that's not how it is in popular entertainment for children. Most faerie tales (ha...faerie...no pun intended), books, comic books, children's television (above preschool) and even Disney movies contain romantic plots. There is no sex shown, or even implied (generally, apart from pregnancy), but the romantic element is there. People in general do not consider this explicit...until it involves two people of the same gender, oddly.

Lets put it this way.

Around 12 year olds I would want to play a campaign that is similar to Lords of the Rings by Tolkein
Around 13 and up I would rather play a campaign that is similar to A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. (though I wouldn't go full Martin on them till they are about 15/16)

In LOTR there is no romance, Aragorn and Arwen didn't even have their romance story in LOTR, it was in the Appendices in Return of the King. There were a few scenes in LOTR between Eowyn and Aragorn that have romantic tension yet there is no romance.

Does this make sense?

LotharBot
2007-07-24, 01:40 PM
I disagree about parents teaching them about sex, parents should be the primary person and the main one.

I don't see how you're disagreeing with my statement that "parents of those kids SHOULD be teaching them about sex". Maybe you read the "not" from the line below the one you were responding to?


I am in complete agreement with the bold comment, there is no reason a stranger, even an older friend should be teaching the kid about sex, furthermore role playing explicit sexuality is a no no..

Bingo.

In this case, the genders in question don't matter one bit. I as an adult male should never role-play explicit (or even subtle, implicit) sexuality with my friend's 14-year-old daughter. You can switch either or both genders in that statement and it's still true. It's just not cool.

I have to disagree with the idea that things change drastically at 13. I have a friend who's a high school guidance counselor, and she always has the funniest stories... the lesson I take from them, which I can confirm because I've been a teacher for a lot of different ages, is that "they're still kids" even when they're 15-16 years old. They've grown up a lot from age 12, but they're still not ready to be role-playing explicit sexuality with an adult. It's generally acceptable to mention sex and sexuality to kids that age (you don't have to stay G-rated any more), but it's still majorly not cool to explicitly role-play it.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-24, 01:49 PM
When I was in high school, I knew quite a number of sexually active 15-/16-year-olds. I don't think that significantly fewer of them shouldn't have been doing it than there are over-18s who shouldn't be doing it.

tainsouvra
2007-07-24, 02:08 PM
When I was in high school, I knew quite a number of sexually active 15-/16-year-olds. I don't think that significantly fewer of them shouldn't have been doing it than there are over-18s who shouldn't be doing it. That doesn't, strangely enough, bear on what age it's appropriate to roleplay it with them, though. Hormonal teenagers hardly need more encouragement than they already get from using the TV and internet while their parents aren't paying attention :smalltongue:

LotharBot
2007-07-24, 02:09 PM
When I was in high school, I knew quite a number of sexually active 15-/16-year-olds.

True. Doesn't make it appropriate for ADULTS to role-play sexual situations with them. They are still children; go people-watching at the mall if you don't believe me.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-24, 02:11 PM
Yeah, okay. I don't think anyone was saying that you should verbally diddle Sally Teenager at the gaming table, so to speak.

tainsouvra
2007-07-24, 02:17 PM
Yeah, okay. I don't think anyone was saying that you should verbally diddle Sally Teenager at the gaming table, so to speak. So we've established that the idea is solid in principle, now we're just figuring out the details :smallwink:

LotharBot
2007-07-24, 03:17 PM
I would strongly suggest not flirting with a teenager, either, unless you're actually of such an age and life-stage that romantic interest could legitimately lead to more. That's not so much a matter of legality or morality as it is of wisdom.

If you're a 25 year old married adult with a college degree and a house payment, it's easy to forget what it was like to be a 16 year old whose biggest worry was an upcoming math test or whether some other 16 year old thought you were cute. It's easy to forget what a little bit of romantic attention can do to a kid of that age, to someone who's still in the early stages of development emotionally (even if physically mature). Unless you're VERY sure you can both handle it and you're VERY sure you're both interpreting each others signals as intended (that is, in-game ONLY), you can end up causing a lot of damage completely by accident.

Ramza00
2007-07-25, 03:41 PM
I have to disagree with the idea that things change drastically at 13. I have a friend who's a high school guidance counselor, and she always has the funniest stories... the lesson I take from them, which I can confirm because I've been a teacher for a lot of different ages, is that "they're still kids" even when they're 15-16 years old. They've grown up a lot from age 12, but they're still not ready to be role-playing explicit sexuality with an adult. It's generally acceptable to mention sex and sexuality to kids that age (you don't have to stay G-rated any more), but it's still majorly not cool to explicitly role-play it.

At 13 the subject matter is not taboo anymore. Yet at the same time you shouldn't treat a 13 year old the same as a 15 year old and a 17 year old with the type of roleplaying and the amount of detail you should consider.

But hey that is just me and how I would do it.

For example a 13 year old may be able to handle the intrigue and the amount of death in a world similar to ASOIAF by Martin, that doesn't mean your choice of language as a DM or a rollplayer should go into the greasy details that Martin does. A 13 year old may have no problem with a story where a person is going to be raped (it will invoke emotion sure, they can handle it), under no reason should such a person hear the details of the rape they can't handle that, or if they can handle it they still have no reason to be exposed to it. Save those kind of roleplaying for games where everybody is an adult and out of highschool.

FoE
2007-07-25, 05:38 PM
If you are absolutely committed to playing a gay character, that's cool. Really, you can play your character any way you want, provided that you aren't being disruptive at the gaming table. My rule is: if it feels good, do it, as long as you're not hurting anyone (without their consent).:smallwink:

That said, sexuality (gay, straight or otherwise) doesn't have a place at my gaming table, unless there's a valid reason for it. It would have to be a very good reason, though, such as two of my players wanting to fall in love as part of the plot. (As a supremely evil bastard, I would welcome such a plot development, because it would allow me at one point or another to force the heroes into a classic "Choose between the love of your life or this screaming busload of schoolchildren to live" set-up.) I might also entertain players using sex appeal for the "bluff the idiot guards" scenario.

So, why do I not allow any "sex and D&D" in my campaign? Am I some kind of sexless, repressed prude?

Yes, but that's beside the point. The truth is, I don't want sex to enter the D&D equation because I can't even fathom what kind of sexual politics there would be in a fantasy world where there are multiple different races freely mixing and 'hooking up.':smalltongue:

In my mind, homosexuality would just be the tip of the iceberg, as a fantasy world allows for the fulfillment of a whole host of fetishes. Necrophiliacs have access to intelligent undead, furries can get their rocks off with lycanthropes, and a robot fetishist would be right at home in an Eberron campaign where warforged are, heh heh, "fully functional."

More to the point, I don't want the game to be constantly sidetracked by heroes having to constantly visit the local brothel to get it on. Gaming should be about adventuring, not scoring with imaginary prostitutes.

In other words, my advice is, "Don't do it." Unless by "it" you mean unspeakable evil, which I'm totally cool with.

P.S. Older players will get that "Sex and D&D" reference I made earlier. God, I used to love Dixie.:smallsmile:

CherryC
2007-07-30, 12:11 AM
I'm playing a gay druid in one of my games. I'm a chick and I got sick of always being the one female, so I decided to be a guy for a change. Originally my character's sexuality was not mentioned, but everyone in the party became convinced he was gay because he wasn't falling over this one nymphomaniac female NPC we had traveling with the party, so I figured why not and made him gay. He was pretty girly in the first place so it's not like it was a stretch. Plus he's an elf. It's not really a huge part of his character (even though now his one dream is to have a rainbow pegasus as a mount lol). Thank god the people I play with are mature adults and don't give me much trouble for it. :smallcool:

LordMalrog
2007-07-30, 12:16 AM
Seems to be nothing wrong with it. I mean, come on is there a spell over the land that stops people from loving someone of the same gender in D&D. I've incorporated the occasional homosexual npc when i DM. It adds a new layer of depth to your world. If it remains a subtle character trait, then it SHOULDN'T freak out your players. If you make them *ahem* Loud about it, then they'll come off as comic relief. This is me of coarse speaking, without knowing your group. ^^ good luck!

Aquillion
2007-07-30, 01:28 AM
Lets put it this way.

Around 12 year olds I would want to play a campaign that is similar to Lords of the Rings by Tolkein
Around 13 and up I would rather play a campaign that is similar to A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. (though I wouldn't go full Martin on them till they are about 15/16)

In LOTR there is no romance, Aragorn and Arwen didn't even have their romance story in LOTR, it was in the Appendices in Return of the King. There were a few scenes in LOTR between Eowyn and Aragorn that have romantic tension yet there is no romance.

Does this make sense?LOTR had a wedding near the end. Would you be fine having a wedding between two male characters?

What if a knight rescues a princess, and chastely kisses her before they ride off into the sunset? Lots of childrens books have that sort of scene. A chaste kiss is not, by anyone's standards, explict, and saying that a man and a woman love each other is something you'd put in a fantasy novel of any age. If that knight happens to also be a woman, would that kiss suddenly become explict?

Certainly, at a bare minimum, you wouldn't object to portraying the basic existence of marriage, I assume? When characters in LoTR introduce themselves, they often list their parents--son of so-and-so, daughter of so-and-so, whatever. It is absurd and nonsensical to pretend that such unions do not exist.

...so, obviously, my character can be introduced as the child of John and Maria, wandering adventurers of a generation past, right? You can't possibly object to that.

What if I want to introduce my character as the adopted child of John and Steve? Nothing explicit, of course--in fact, it's just one or two lines. "I'm the adopted child of John and Steve, my loving parents." Is that explicit, to you?

(I'm not saying that this should necessarily be added to every game, of course... if your group isn't comfortable with it, whatever. It's a game where the objective is to have fun, not to work out your various neuroses and confront your issues. But claiming that all love is explict sexual content is absurd. There are day-to-day, unavoidable expressions of love in works of fantasy for any age, and to pretend otherwise just to avoid confronting same-sex love is dodging the issue.)

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-30, 01:48 AM
ALL EMOTION IS EXPLICIT CONTENT. LEST ANYONE BE OFFENDED YOU WILL REFRAIN FROM FROM ANY OUTBURST OF ORIGINAL THOUGHT/FEELING AND ONLY SLASH AND SPELLCAST ON TARGETS DESIGNATED EVIL WITH RED SPRAY PAINT. THIS IS THE WILL OF THE OVERMIND. YOUR COMPLIANCE IS CONSIDERED MANDATORY.

:smalltongue:

Pestlepup
2007-07-30, 05:28 AM
...Originally my character's sexuality was not mentioned, but everyone in the party became convinced he was gay because he wasn't falling over this one nymphomaniac female NPC we had traveling with the party, so I figured why not and made him gay. ... Thank god the people I play with are mature adults and don't give me much trouble for it. :smallcool:

Forgive my incredulity, but I personally find it hard to believe that mature adults would find it necessary to include a nymphomaniac female character in a campaign. No offense to you or your gaming group, but it has "generic male fantasy" written all over it. :smallsmile: Sorry if I come across as aggressive or pointed. I have a tendency to rant on occasions. :smallredface:

Bassetking
2007-07-30, 06:17 AM
ALL EMOTION IS EXPLICIT CONTENT. LEST ANYONE BE OFFENDED YOU WILL REFRAIN FROM FROM ANY OUTBURST OF ORIGINAL THOUGHT/FEELING AND ONLY SLASH AND SPELLCAST ON TARGETS DESIGNATED EVIL WITH RED SPRAY PAINT. THIS IS THE WILL OF THE OVERMIND. YOUR COMPLIANCE IS CONSIDERED MANDATORY.

:smalltongue:

*Tips the Overmind a wink, and offers to take it out to a saucy puppet show.*

:smallbiggrin:

j5*
2007-07-30, 03:52 PM
(Please excuse me for not reading through all this thread before posting... my apologies if I'm repeating someone else/slightly off topic at this point.)

As a gay man (which isn't to say I'm an authority on this matter, but to try and draw a parallel here), it's always a question for me of whether to come out to friends, co-workers, and family. Like anything else, I tend to balance the pros and cons. I'll come out to friends usually, but with co-workers and family it's a much tougher decision. Gay pride is great and all, but is it worth arguing with my 90 year old grandfather about? Probably not.

It's always a judgement call. But particularly when it comes to friendship, I don't bother to stay friends with people who won't be cool with it. I can pick my friends, after all. But co-workers? I don't see the point in creating unnecessary conflict, particularly since it has nothing to do with my job.

And that's really what it comes down to in this situation. If your group or DM aren't going to be cool with it, then it's up to you to evaluate whether you want to bother. If it's not going to play well, then you're going to create needless tension in the group, and all for something that might be as ultimately important to your character as their eye colour.

If the fact you can't play a gay character in your group without it being a "thing" bothers you on some level, then it's up to you to evaluate whether you want to play in that group, period. But I won't blame you if you just let it drop. Hell, I'm not out at my D&D group, so I'm not going to lecture you and try to say that you have some altruistic ethical obligation to see this thing through.

Cheers,

Johnny

Dausuul
2007-07-30, 04:04 PM
A 13 year old may have no problem with a story where a person is going to be raped (it will invoke emotion sure, they can handle it), under no reason should such a person hear the details of the rape they can't handle that, or if they can handle it they still have no reason to be exposed to it. Save those kind of roleplaying for games where everybody is an adult and out of highschool.

...or just save that kind of roleplaying, period. Detailed descriptions of rape are not welcome at my gaming table, and I would imagine most roleplayers (the pencil-and-paper kind, at least) feel the same way. Even non-explicit rape is pretty much out of bounds where I play, except as something villain NPCs do to other NPCs.

I mean, if everyone in your group is cool with it, I guess that's between you, but I sure wouldn't assume that everyone is cool with it just because they're over 25.

Starsinger
2007-07-30, 04:19 PM
...or just save that kind of roleplaying, period. Detailed descriptions of rape are not welcome at my gaming table, and I would imagine most roleplayers (the pencil-and-paper kind, at least) feel the same way. Even non-explicit rape is pretty much out of bounds where I play, except as something villain NPCs do to other NPCs.

I mean, if everyone in your group is cool with it, I guess that's between you, but I sure wouldn't assume that everyone is cool with it just because they're over 25.

If it is somehow crucial to the party that X NPC (notice the N? this is never okay for a player to suffer) be raped, like say they're a priestess of a virginal order or something... It should happen off camera, and the description should be "off camera" and should be nothing more than the DM telling you that X NPC was raped... and even that's a little bit too heavy for my tastes.