TPK reversed, would you continue?

[Jerrykhor]

My party fought against a 20th level sorcerer and TPK. We were all 6th level. Naturally, we were all sad and discussed the what ifs and why nots. DM reveals all his master plans and secrets.

Few days later, i was looking at the Sorcerer page in the PHB and it suddenly dawned on me: The TPK should not have happened. The Sorcerer we fought started with Hypnotic Pattern, then casted a Quickened Fireball, followed by another Fireball. 2 Fireballs in 1 turn absolutely wrecked us, but that was breaking the rules. I questioned the DM about it and he admitted it was a mistake.

The party voted to redo the fight and continue from the Sorcerer's turn after he casted the Quickened Fireball. Most of us actually survived the first Fireball, plus far from being instant death like the 90+ damage from 2 Fireballs.

Would you have continued? Or would you prefer to forget it and move on because of the spoilers?

[Innocent_bystan]

Why is a party of lvl 6 characters fighting a lvl 20 sorcerer? A TPK is unavoidable in that scenario.

[Jerrykhor]

Why is a party of lvl 6 characters fighting a lvl 20 sorcerer? A TPK is unavoidable in that scenario.

I suppose i left out some important details. Its got to do with the premise of our campaign, and some poor choices.

A Duke has put a brand on us which we found out to be the Geas spell. We want to get rid of it, so we went to a Wizard NPC for help. When I told him it was the Duke who put the brand on us, he reacted in shock and told us to leave. My party's Rogue lied and said it was the Sorcerer who branded us. In short, he is framing an innocent man. The Wizard then reacted more calmly and said he would have the Sorcerer arrested. Also, he needs the Sorcerer's crystal to remove the brand. So we decided to knock out the Sorc with some Chloroform (con save), but we fudged our rolls, and thats how the fight started.

I do not think we will survive the fight. Also, a sorc of that level would have a very high Con save right? I probably need to do some persuading and grovelling lol.

[Innocent_bystan]

Fair enough, but it's still a fight you can't win. My advice would be to run like little girls.

Your party got killed by 3 lvl 3 spells, a fraction of the sorcerer's power. Your DM was either unprepared or generous. If he takes out the big guns, you're all toast.

[ImSAMazing]

Why is a party of lvl 6 characters fighting a lvl 20 sorcerer? A TPK is unavoidable in that scenario.

Yeah, literally. He can either just PWK one of you, cast a Prismatic Wall around you guys, or just Fly up and keep spamming Fireballs. You can't win that.

[Lombra]

I wouldn't get mad if my character died because of a meteor swarm. It's a pretty epic death.

But I wouldn't continue the adventure unless the DM changes his plans.

[Citan]

My party fought against a 20th level sorcerer and TPK. We were all 6th level. Naturally, we were all sad and discussed the what ifs and why nots. DM reveals all his master plans and secrets.

Few days later, i was looking at the Sorcerer page in the PHB and it suddenly dawned on me: The TPK should not have happened. The Sorcerer we fought started with Hypnotic Pattern, then casted a Quickened Fireball, followed by another Fireball. 2 Fireballs in 1 turn absolutely wrecked us, but that was breaking the rules. I questioned the DM about it and he admitted it was a mistake.

The party voted to redo the fight and continue from the Sorcerer's turn after he casted the Quickened Fireball. Most of us actually survived the first Fireball, plus far from being instant death like the 90+ damage from 2 Fireballs.

Would you have continued? Or would you prefer to forget it and move on because of the spoilers?

Frankly, I'd discuss it openly with the DM.
If the spoilers weren't too expensive, and the DM actually thought about another ending to the encounter than plain "fight to the death", I would consider restarting...
But that would certainly require significant work for the DM to change his plot "soon enough" to make it interesting again. Few people would bother watching a whole movie if they know the end.

If otherwise the DM did not plan for this encounter at first, but followed the choices your party made because players should always face consequences of their decisions (which I find is usually the right call, more fair, more fun ;)) then drop it. There is no way you could ever stand a chance until the DM creates a miracle in your favor, and he has no reason to do it. And at least you can say you went in a blast! XD

[mephnick]

Naturally, we were all sad and discussed the what ifs and why nots. DM reveals all his master plans and secrets.

Man, you never do that. You modify those ideas and half of your next campaign is already done!

[GlenSmash!]

Man, you never do that. You modify those ideas and half of your next campaign is already done!

Yup. Never waste a good idea.

On the topic at hand, one thing I love about this edition is that monsters (and NPCs) are built differently than player characters. That "Sorcerer" could easily have been a an NPC with an ability that allowed it to cast that extra spell, and it all would have been by the book. Even calling it a 20th level Sorcerer is a bit of a misnomer since if it's not a PC it doesn't have a Level. It has a CR.

To the OP, while I applaud your DM for trying to be fair, my advice would be to pay less attention to the man behind the curtain. Because, I think your campaign is blown even if your characters are now not dead.

[BiPolar]

Yup. Never waste a good idea.

On the topic at hand, one thing I love about this edition is that monsters (and NPCs) are built differently than player characters. That "Sorcerer" could easily have been a an NPC with an ability that allowed it to cast that extra spell, and it all would have been by the book. Even calling it a 20th level Sorcerer is a bit of a misnomer since if it's not a PC it doesn't have a Level. It has a CR.

To the OP, while I applaud your DM for trying to be fair, my advice would be to pay less attention to the man behind the curtain. Because, I think your campaign is blown even if your characters are now not dead.

Agreed here, and this is one of the biggest lessons I've learned as a DM and a player. Things may change behind the screen, so as a player, you just need to roll with it.

Unfortunately it does mean more of this adage:


Worry about the rules less and focus on your enjoyment more.

There may be idiosyncrasies and inequalities between what the DM is doing versus you, but as long as you're having fun I wouldn't worry about it too much.

In this case because spoilers have been...spoiled. It's probably time to move on.

[Ruslan]

The party voted to redo the fight and continue from the Sorcerer's turn after he casted the Quickened Fireball.Question: was the DM part of this vote? Because this ain't worth nothin' if the DM ain't on board with y'all.

[Potato_Priest]

Where did you encounter the sorcerer? If it was in a town, he's probably not going to go around using fireball and meteor swarm due to the massive collateral damage that would be caused by the fire alone. If I was that Sorcerer I'd just fly up in the air and disintegrate you individually. No chance for innocent deaths that way. If the fight was taking place in the Sorcerer's house, he'd again have to refrain from fireballing/meteor swarm, but he would have a bit more leeway and could use Cone of Cold and similar.

[MintMilano]

If you would like to continue with these characters on this campaign, your group has some critical things to consider right now

1) how are you going to escape this Sorcerer? At this point it reads like your only real option is to try and reason with him - you might consider having the Rogue surrender their self/admit what they did - but considering you tried to frame him, rob him, and drug him, I doubt he will listen to reason. I would Fireball your asses too. Try explaining the circumstances and your party's desperation - a Geas is no joke, after all, and a Sorcerer would understand that. offer your service to the Sorcerer. Grovel. Beg. Become his servants.

2) Your DM more or less has to change a lot of their plans. Frankly, your group sounds inexperienced, DM included - D&D is not a fun game to play for players if they know what is coming, and it's not fun to play for DMs if the group knows all their fun plots.

Quite frankly, I would consider just starting fresh. This seems like an extremely sticky situation with no real out, do-over or not. Chalk it up to a lesson learned - you need a thorough plan with contingencies to do anything to a high level caster, and at level 6 your group shouldn't have attempted it at all.

[Jerrykhor]

The DM did not vote, but he agreed to redo the fight.

The fight takes place inside the Sorcerer's workshop. I'm not sure if I want to remind the DM that his workshop might catch fire if he uses Fireball....

Yes, most of my party is very new to d&d. DM is a first timer, though he is an experienced player. I am really angry at the Rogue, we all are. The Sorcerer was helping us on a quest to research something mysterious, and now we are betraying him. I am not happy both in character and OOC.

[Erys]

The DM did not vote, but he agreed to redo the fight.

The fight takes place inside the Sorcerer's workshop. I'm not sure if I want to remind the DM that his workshop might catch fire if he uses Fireball....

Yes, most of my party is very new to d&d. DM is a first timer, though he is an experienced player. I am really angry at the Rogue, we all are. The Sorcerer was helping us on a quest to research something mysterious, and now we are betraying him. I am not happy both in character and OOC.

If it was me (and the story wasn't spoiled already by the DM); I would redo the fight from the beginning and on my first turn I would attack the rogue while yelling "traitor!" at the top of my lungs.

[rollingForInit]

I'd move on.

The thing is, that even if you redo the fight, would it really turn out different? One fireball is 28 average damage, meaning at two you're looking at 56 damage. What if the Sorcerer had cast Fireball in a 9th level slot instead? That's 49 average damage. Not very far behind two 3rd level castings. A 9th level Chain Lightning has an average damage of 58.5. Sunburst has an average damage of 42, and blinds all targets. Meteor Swarm has 140 average damage.

Even if your DM did break the rules, he didn't really break them in a way that really affected the outcome. He wanted to hardcore on you, and would've been capable of dealing the same amount of damage anyway, strictly within the rules. The party is dead, no matter what. The only way the party survives if the Sorcerer, and the DM, goes easy on you with the intention that you will not have a TPK.

[SharkForce]

yeah, there are so many ways for this fight to go massively against you, and so few ways you could even dream of it going well. i'd just accept that instead of losing the fight because of a double fireball, you lost because of some other unspecified thing, and you're still all dead.

you could theoretically win the fight *if* you had caught the sorcerer by surprise. maybe. even then, it would be far from a sure thing. once the sorcerer gets an action, that's pretty much the end of the fight.