Waves of enemies for Pathfinder - plannig help

[Briawan]

Hi all

I'm planning an encounter for my players where they have to defend a group of dwarfs building a wood bridge (with some magic help it will require 7/8 rounds), and then use that bridge to let their armies besiege a city.
Lets say that 8 dwarfs will work on the bridge, and every rounds each dwarf "produce" 1 point, I think I can set the target at 50 points.
The party will have to protect the worker against wave of enemies that will come every 2/3 rounds.
I'm asking some advices for the CR of these wave of enemies. I want an increasing difficulty wave by wave, even till they should better flee and abandon the project.

The party is lvl 7, Mythic tier 1 (Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric and Bard). Enemies will be mainly demons, we are in the Worldwound, on Golarion.

Thank you all :smallsmile:

[AlexandraNelsen]

I'd try starting the first wave at a CR 5 or 6. Just make sure there's at least one left from the first wave by the time the second arrives and the encounter should slowly build in difficulty since each new wave should show up before the enemies from the prior waves all die. I'd also think about how much cover the workers have from ranged weapons if the attackers have any.

[Calthropstu]

Ok, first thing you have to remember:

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE A MYTHIC PARTY.

Remember this well. My mythic oracle and his party faced down an entire demon horde and reduced their numbers by half over the course of 2 encounters. I am talking over 150 demons brought down to about 75 in 2 battles. And I'm not talking pansy demons either... we face off against vrocks, glabrezus all backed by a mythic nalfeshnee with class levels. At level 12 mythic 6.

So you want 4 waves of monsters over 12 rounds?

First off, make this a mythic challenge. Level 7 is awfully high to only be mythic tier 1. For mythic tiers, you really should be about half your level in tiers so it looks like they are 2 tiers behind.

Wave 1: 15 Dretch.

Wave 2: 3 rounds later 4x Babau

Wave 3: Shadow demon with 5 more Dretch.

Wave 4: after the shadow demon is slain, A mythic vrock. Loathe to enter combat himself, he sent his minions to kill what he thought should have been an easy mark. When it finally became clear that his minions were no match for the party he had no choice but to enter the fray himself.

[Briawan]

Thx both guys.

About Char/Mythic tier I'm following the AP, I'm not sure if I missed any upgrade but they'll get the 2nd tier soon.

I'm already aware of their power :smallbiggrin: by now the only way to bring some danger is to have every party member deal with a foe, and I'm luck that there are no "standard" arcane caster so no AOE damage, by now.

The waves you suggest Calthropstu are cool, but I think that 15 foes a t1 wave are a bit to much, as I said, they really lack croud control (even the bard is focusing on melee).
But the idea to make this a mythic challenge is cool, I think I'll use some main villains too, thank you :smallwink:.

[Calthropstu]

Thx both guys.

About Char/Mythic tier I'm following the AP, I'm not sure if I missed any upgrade but they'll get the 2nd tier soon.

I'm already aware of their power :smallbiggrin: by now the only way to bring some danger is to have every party member deal with a foe, and I'm luck that there are no "standard" arcane caster so no AOE damage, by now.

The waves you suggest Calthropstu are cool, but I think that 15 foes a t1 wave are a bit to much, as I said, they really lack croud control (even the bard is focusing on melee).
But the idea to make this a mythic challenge is cool, I think I'll use some main villains too, thank you :smallwink:.

15 cr2 = 1 cr 7 I believe, and that WOULD be a standard demon tactic... let the grunts handle it. And if the grunts get smashed, send in bigger and bigger things until the boss has to wade in. Bosses only wade in when they have to.

[Briawan]

15 cr2 = 1 cr 7 I believe, and that WOULD be a standard demon tactic... let the grunts handle it. And if the grunts get smashed, send in bigger and bigger things until the boss has to wade in. Bosses only wade in when they have to.

Yeah you are right Calth, but I still have to consider that my players lack crowd control, and if I kill all the dwarfs with the 1st wave (due to action economy) there isn't any reason to plan the whole encounter.
I will follow your idea anyway, but il pick another demon for the 1st wave, with an higher CR to to lower a little the amount I need to have a good challenge. I'm thinking about some demons that can teleport, but just 1/day, to surprise the party.

The other waves then could be as u suggest. with more nasty and intelligent foes.

Thank you :smallwink:

[Kol Korran]

Briawan is playing Wrath of The Righteous, second module. Albeit, if I get it right, with quite a lot of modifications. Some of what follows includes various spoiler info of the AP, so be warned.

A few crucial questions:
1. What terrain will this fight take place in? How is the bridge built? In the module the bridge to the stronghold is right near the main gate and walls. Does the battle take place near the castle? Far from it? How much access does the enemy has to it? The PCs' army? Does the moat inhibit movement?
2. Have you used the mythic creature that is the challenge for the second tier? If not, then having it arrive as one of the last "waves" is excellent!
3. How tough are the engineering dwarves? Can they take a few hits?
4. Does the party have any other assistance from their army? (Such as the named NPCs, or better-than-regular soldiers?
5. As you've written to me, you're adjusting quite a lot of the AP according to mys suggestions. Are you also adjusting S. Vhane as I did? Is he "the ghost of Drezen?"

Some ideas:
1- Don't have it be just waves of monsters. Have some other effect in place. This could be archers from the walls, catapult stones (If they are far away enough), enemy casters, or even the ghostly powers of S. Vhane. (More on that later).
2- The focus should be divided between killing the monsters, to protecting the dwarves. Good memorable battles often involve critical tough choices, and usually more than the group can handle... I suggest to make the dwarves a bit sturdy (Say... warrior 1/ expert 3-4 or such), so while the monsters can hit them, they don't usually kill them outright, but rather wound, and the PCs have to choose between protection and offense.
3- I suggest to enable the monsters to come from different directions, and very different tactics. If there is an obvious front line, the party can easily block it. There are several ways to bypass it, the main ones that come to mind are flying, teleportation and masking magic (Invisibility, alter form an so on).
4- Some monsters will target the PCs. The others will obviously target the dwarves exclusively, especially once the demons understand what's happening.
5- Enable time to prepare for the battle. Make sure the PCs understand the dwarves are "soft targets", and that they should think of a plan to protect them. I really, really don't think you should adjust the battle to their problem of lacking crowd control. Let them understand it's a possibility, and come up with solutions. This cna be wiht magic, allies, positioning, items (Potions, alchemical items) and more.

General ideas for enemies:
1. I'd suggest to start with something fairly known:
- a group of Babau +/- some incubi. The focus is on testing the defenses. Use the Babau's dispe magic abilities and the Incubi's suggestions and such, to undo buffs and try to lure/ sabotage the work.
- Some excellent fliers can simply be fiendish/ half fiend creatures: Manticores, Harpies (Who can sing dwarves off the bridge), Wyverns... (Who grab and throw).

2. I'd then suggest to pepper the enemies with non demons. These serve both as a more unexpected and challenging enemy, and also if played right, a sort of attempt to demoralize the dwarves, with some flavor twists.
- Undead. Especially ones who can cause terror, inflict unusual damage (Ability drain or even negative levels), and are difficult to deal with for normal troops. Thinking of shadows, allips, wights, and so on. Flavor them as ex-crusaders, or as dwarves who died when Drezen was taken, with obvious marks as to their former lives.
- Humanoid cultists. This works best if you can tie them to interests of the players (Such as old enemies and such).
- Constructs! Either animated objects (Such as old statues of Iomedae who were in Drezen, Or a big statue of the Merilith, and so on), Or low CR golems made from grisly remains (Such as Bone golems, blood golems, and so on).
- Swarms! S.Vhane follows Deskari, Lord of The Host. If you can put some sort of swarm (Fiendish Stirges, Some abyssal swarms) It could be great.

3. Support/ complication:
Through all of this, I'd suggest to give the demon's side some magical resources/ aid. These are mostly for fear/ moral affect, and battle control (Mostly Enchantment/ Illusion/ Transmutation/ Conjuring effect). I'm thinking of 2 possible ways to play this:
- Well protected casters, lending support. 1-4 casters, capable of casting spells up to about 3rd level. Mostly things that affect mobility and sight (Such as fog cloud, web if appropriate, grease and such), Hamper the dwarves (Fear, suggestion and similar), buff/ help the other monsters (Sneaking in someone with invisibility, casting haste, mirror image and so on). COnsider giving them 1-3 scrolls of higher level spells (Such as ice wall, confusion and so on). The casters are behind nearly full cover, and cast from afar (Be weary of range though).
- If you're using S. Bhane as "the ghost of Drezen", it can try using it's cursed state to affect the dwarves and combatants. For example, if the bridge is being built near the gate, have it's face take shape on the stone gates, and speak to the party, and the dwarves. Effects like the dragon's frightfull aura, or perhaps shape the ground on the battle field, or drive ghostly images, or more...

4. Final showdown:
About 3 rounds before the gate is supposed to be completed, the demon's side goes full scale assault. HAve the initial assault try and kill nearly all dwarves left standing, granting the situation a great deal of urgencty, yet on the brink of failure. A few ideas:
- If you haven't used the Mythic Chimera yet, this is the time! Have the party feel powerful winds, and then have it appear using it's breath weapon in the middle of the party, (Invisibility was cast upon it. Perceptive characters may have heard SOMETHING big coming in fast!), and it's breath weapon devastating.
- Unleash the horde! The demon side send a great amount of teleporting demons to try and kill off the dwarves, or just a mass of lower CR cultists and such. The idea is that the enemy far outnumber the party's ability to tackle them all. They need to preserve at least some forces.
- S. Vhane calls upon the powers of the castle either throwing parts of it on them, making the ground come alive (elemental/ animated objects?) or even summoning some powerful spectres of fallen warriors to end this threat, once and for all.

This at least is my idea. I suggest to expect at least some dwarves will die, and let the tide go back and forth, with allies possibly supplying help. the above are general ideas. If you'll like, we can try and flesh them out more.

Good luck!

[Calthropstu]

Briawan is playing Wrath of The Righteous, second module. Albeit, if I get it right, with quite a lot of modifications. Some of what follows includes various spoiler info of the AP, so be warned.

A few crucial questions:
1. What terrain will this fight take place in? How is the bridge built? In the module the bridge to the stronghold is right near the main gate and walls. Does the battle take place near the castle? Far from it? How much access does the enemy has to it? The PCs' army? Does the moat inhibit movement?
2. Have you used the mythic creature that is the challenge for the second tier? If not, then having it arrive as one of the last "waves" is excellent!
3. How tough are the engineering dwarves? Can they take a few hits?
4. Does the party have any other assistance from their army? (Such as the named NPCs, or better-than-regular soldiers?
5. As you've written to me, you're adjusting quite a lot of the AP according to mys suggestions. Are you also adjusting S. Vhane as I did? Is he "the ghost of Drezen?"

Some ideas:
1- Don't have it be just waves of monsters. Have some other effect in place. This could be archers from the walls, catapult stones (If they are far away enough), enemy casters, or even the ghostly powers of S. Vhane. (More on that later).
2- The focus should be divided between killing the monsters, to protecting the dwarves. Good memorable battles often involve critical tough choices, and usually more than the group can handle... I suggest to make the dwarves a bit sturdy (Say... warrior 1/ expert 3-4 or such), so while the monsters can hit them, they don't usually kill them outright, but rather wound, and the PCs have to choose between protection and offense.
3- I suggest to enable the monsters to come from different directions, and very different tactics. If there is an obvious front line, the party can easily block it. There are several ways to bypass it, the main ones that come to mind are flying, teleportation and masking magic (Invisibility, alter form an so on).
4- Some monsters will target the PCs. The others will obviously target the dwarves exclusively, especially once the demons understand what's happening.
5- Enable time to prepare for the battle. Make sure the PCs understand the dwarves are "soft targets", and that they should think of a plan to protect them. I really, really don't think you should adjust the battle to their problem of lacking crowd control. Let them understand it's a possibility, and come up with solutions. This cna be wiht magic, allies, positioning, items (Potions, alchemical items) and more.

General ideas for enemies:
1. I'd suggest to start with something fairly known:
- a group of Babau +/- some incubi. The focus is on testing the defenses. Use the Babau's dispe magic abilities and the Incubi's suggestions and such, to undo buffs and try to lure/ sabotage the work.
- Some excellent fliers can simply be fiendish/ half fiend creatures: Manticores, Harpies (Who can sing dwarves off the bridge), Wyverns... (Who grab and throw).

2. I'd then suggest to pepper the enemies with non demons. These serve both as a more unexpected and challenging enemy, and also if played right, a sort of attempt to demoralize the dwarves, with some flavor twists.
- Undead. Especially ones who can cause terror, inflict unusual damage (Ability drain or even negative levels), and are difficult to deal with for normal troops. Thinking of shadows, allips, wights, and so on. Flavor them as ex-crusaders, or as dwarves who died when Drezen was taken, with obvious marks as to their former lives.
- Humanoid cultists. This works best if you can tie them to interests of the players (Such as old enemies and such).
- Constructs! Either animated objects (Such as old statues of Iomedae who were in Drezen, Or a big statue of the Merilith, and so on), Or low CR golems made from grisly remains (Such as Bone golems, blood golems, and so on).
- Swarms! S.Vhane follows Deskari, Lord of The Host. If you can put some sort of swarm (Fiendish Stirges, Some abyssal swarms) It could be great.

3. Support/ complication:
Through all of this, I'd suggest to give the demon's side some magical resources/ aid. These are mostly for fear/ moral affect, and battle control (Mostly Enchantment/ Illusion/ Transmutation/ Conjuring effect). I'm thinking of 2 possible ways to play this:
- Well protected casters, lending support. 1-4 casters, capable of casting spells up to about 3rd level. Mostly things that affect mobility and sight (Such as fog cloud, web if appropriate, grease and such), Hamper the dwarves (Fear, suggestion and similar), buff/ help the other monsters (Sneaking in someone with invisibility, casting haste, mirror image and so on). COnsider giving them 1-3 scrolls of higher level spells (Such as ice wall, confusion and so on). The casters are behind nearly full cover, and cast from afar (Be weary of range though).
- If you're using S. Bhane as "the ghost of Drezen", it can try using it's cursed state to affect the dwarves and combatants. For example, if the bridge is being built near the gate, have it's face take shape on the stone gates, and speak to the party, and the dwarves. Effects like the dragon's frightfull aura, or perhaps shape the ground on the battle field, or drive ghostly images, or more...

4. Final showdown:
About 3 rounds before the gate is supposed to be completed, the demon's side goes full scale assault. HAve the initial assault try and kill nearly all dwarves left standing, granting the situation a great deal of urgencty, yet on the brink of failure. A few ideas:
- If you haven't used the Mythic Chimera yet, this is the time! Have the party feel powerful winds, and then have it appear using it's breath weapon in the middle of the party, (Invisibility was cast upon it. Perceptive characters may have heard SOMETHING big coming in fast!), and it's breath weapon devastating.
- Unleash the horde! The demon side send a great amount of teleporting demons to try and kill off the dwarves, or just a mass of lower CR cultists and such. The idea is that the enemy far outnumber the party's ability to tackle them all. They need to preserve at least some forces.
- S. Vhane calls upon the powers of the castle either throwing parts of it on them, making the ground come alive (elemental/ animated objects?) or even summoning some powerful spectres of fallen warriors to end this threat, once and for all.

This at least is my idea. I suggest to expect at least some dwarves will die, and let the tide go back and forth, with allies possibly supplying help. the above are general ideas. If you'll like, we can try and flesh them out more.

Good luck!

Some good suggestions, but a "group of babau" would have to be limited to about 4. I agree coddling the PCs in the form of catering to their lack of crowd control is unwise, but throwing something more than 4 CR 6 as a first wave seems unwise against a 7th level party. I'd restrict the battles to about cr 7 - 9 until the final wave which should be cr 10. Making this fight their mythic challenge sounds definitely like the way to go.

[Kol Korran]

Some good suggestions, but a "group of babau" would have to be limited to about 4. I agree coddling the PCs in the form of catering to their lack of crowd control is unwise, but throwing something more than 4 CR 6 as a first wave seems unwise against a 7th level party. I'd restrict the battles to about cr 7 - 9 until the final wave which should be cr 10. Making this fight their mythic challenge sounds definitely like the way to go.

There are few caveats regarding the AP. The PCs are usually stronger than regular 7th level/ 1 tier adventurers, due to a few factors:
1. In the first module, there is a possibility of gaining a few "extra bonuses" not tied to the regular level progression. Amongst them an extra feat, 5 more hp, a +2 to an ability choice and similar.
2. The characters in this AP are usually made EXPLICITLY to fight demons, which comprise about 80-90% of the enemies in the AP.
3. The PCs aren't alone there, but with an army (Which kind of army, that depends on how the DM plays it). Also, the module assume they have a few NPCs tagging along, which are about 5-6th level (If I remember correctly). They might lend some help, even if just by some pre-battle buffs, scouting, or helping to guard the dwarves. Again, it's uncertain if the DM plays them as integral parts, and if the party even uses their help, but on the whole they may offer significant assistance.
4. It's often said that the AP come with above average WBL treasure, so they might pack considerably more. Not sure...

At the end, as usual, the DM alone can gauge how tough his party may be. This is why I avoid giving exact numbers, just a general concept. The details are for the DM to settle.

[Calthropstu]

There are few caveats regarding the AP. The PCs are usually stronger than regular 7th level/ 1 tier adventurers, due to a few factors:
1. In the first module, there is a possibility of gaining a few "extra bonuses" not tied to the regular level progression. Amongst them an extra feat, 5 more hp, a +2 to an ability choice and similar.
2. The characters in this AP are usually made EXPLICITLY to fight demons, which comprise about 80-90% of the enemies in the AP.
3. The PCs aren't alone there, but with an army (Which kind of army, that depends on how the DM plays it). Also, the module assume they have a few NPCs tagging along, which are about 5-6th level (If I remember correctly). They might lend some help, even if just by some pre-battle buffs, scouting, or helping to guard the dwarves. Again, it's uncertain if the DM plays them as integral parts, and if the party even uses their help, but on the whole they may offer significant assistance.
4. It's often said that the AP come with above average WBL treasure, so they might pack considerably more. Not sure...

At the end, as usual, the DM alone can gauge how tough his party may be. This is why I avoid giving exact numbers, just a general concept. The details are for the DM to settle.

Fair enough. I remember when I played in a mythic campaign and we wiped out his mythic nalfeshnee with class levels with 4x suped up Glabrezu in 2 rounds without him ever getting action. He was rather upset about that.

Mythic gets ridiculous very very fast.