Advice for High Level Campaigns

[AlexandraNelsen]

So once my group finishes our current campaign, I'll be taking over as DM and running a Pathfinder campaign that should go from level 11 to level 20. Considering the only time I've DMed with any characters that high level we were drunk and messing around I was hoping to get some tips from people that have run high level campaigns before.

What sort of things should I be wary of? Is there anything I should be keeping in mind with higher level PCs?

[Cosi]

The most important piece of advice for high level games is to look at abilities like teleport and raise dead as opportunities rather than problems. A lot of people talk about how a Wizard casting teleport can skip your whole overland voyage adventure. That's the wrong way to look at it. A Wizard casting teleport lets you have an adventure where the overland voyage is a minor part of the story. The whole point of playing at high levels is to use cool abilities to do awesome stuff, and if you don't allow your players do to that you're doing them a disservice.

You should also probably fiddle with the economic assumptions of the setting, but I don't know enough about PF to say which failure states still exist and which ones have been patched.

[TheCorsairMalac]

My advice is to still throw weak enemies into battles. If you're planning for the level 13 party to fight a lich-dragon duo, throw in a bunch of kobolds and skeletons too. They're so weak that the party will spend maybe 1-2 rounds killing them, and might even ignore them. They help the players see just how tough they've gotten. It makes the big monsters actually feel cool.

[AlexandraNelsen]

The most important piece of advice for high level games is to look at abilities like teleport and raise dead as opportunities rather than problems. A lot of people talk about how a Wizard casting teleport can skip your whole overland voyage adventure. That's the wrong way to look at it. A Wizard casting teleport lets you have an adventure where the overland voyage is a minor part of the story. The whole point of playing at high levels is to use cool abilities to do awesome stuff, and if you don't allow your players do to that you're doing them a disservice.

You should also probably fiddle with the economic assumptions of the setting, but I don't know enough about PF to say which failure states still exist and which ones have been patched.

Good advice! I'm more used to running horror themed, high mortality, no magic games so I'll have to make sure to remember to showcase the PCs far more than I normally would.


My advice is to still throw weak enemies into battles. If you're planning for the level 13 party to fight a lich-dragon duo, throw in a bunch of kobolds and skeletons too. They're so weak that the party will spend maybe 1-2 rounds killing them, and might even ignore them. They help the players see just how tough they've gotten. It makes the big monsters actually feel cool.

Interesting, should the little guys be adjusted to be capable of actually hitting the party's AC or should they be less capable and more "warm bodies in the line of fire"?

[Flickerdart]

Never do shopping during game time. It will take forever and a day. If anyone wants to play a spellcaster, make sure they are good at book-keeping, because all the stacked buffs and "what should I cast this round" deliberations can get insane.

[TheCorsairMalac]

Interesting, should the little guys be adjusted to be capable of actually hitting the party's AC or should they be less capable and more "warm bodies in the line of fire"?

Nah, don't adjust them. They're just there so the players can see how easily they kill what used to be difficult enemies. Also, abilities such as Great Cleave and Turn Undead, really shine against weak opponents.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A guy could write a book.

Here's some bullet points:

High-level play is not low-level play. The trappings and challenges that a party has to contend with at level 5 are mostly entirely trivialities by level 15. Guarding caravans across a desert, running out of food, bad weather; such things are beneath a high-level characters' concern except in extraordinary circumstances.

As important as it is to know what powers are available to high-level PC's it's just as, if not more important to know the limitations of those powers. Long-range teleportation bypass many challenges but you can't teleport to a place you're not familiar with or at least one of which you have a an accurate, detailed description for example.

The PC's are figures of legend (says so right in the spell description :smalltongue:) at upper levels. Don't be afraid to let them be major players on the world stage and be recognized unless they conceal their identity.

The world is awash in magic and high level characters are absolutely steeped in it, even those with no inherent magical ability. When setting up a scenario, don't consider just the PC's magicks but what other high-level figures might have acquired and implemented in their lairs/ homes (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook has some good stuff) to stand in the PC's way.

The planes are open to the PC's if they so choose unless you actively forbid it. Have a talk with your players about how the world's cosmology might play a role in the campaign and whether you're willing to run things beyond the material and if they'd like to explore such realms.

Rocket tag is not unavoidable but it wil be common enough. Don't expect villains to survive long if combat is joined in earnest unless you've planned -very- carefully. (General DM pro-tip: even if you did plan extensively, don't snatch victory from the PC's should they get lucky unless you all put the narrative -way- ahead of the game element of D&D.)



That's all that rolls off the top of my head for the moment.

[Ualaa]

I like the idea of tiers of play, from 4th edition.
In 4th, the classes ranged from 1st to 30th, not 1st to 20th, so the tier ranges would probably be adjusted.

1st to 10th was Heroic Tier, where the players are saving the city.
11th to 20th was Paragon Tier, where the players are saving the country/region.
21st to 30th was Epic Tier, where the players are saving the world.

You could scale that to 01-07, 08-14, 15+.
Or something similar.

That can kind of give you an idea of the types of challenges your group could be dealing with.



Continuing to borrow from other products... Spheres of Power is an alternate magical system, which you may be interested in and you may not be.
It does away with Vancian (so many spells of a given level) casting in favor of spheres (similar to schools) and talents within a sphere (extra things you can do do).
Either you have a sphere/talents, or you don't.

Anyway, they introduce the idea of Advanced Talents.
These are magical effects, which can drastically modify how the game plays.
The idea being, not every group will want players to have access to all forms of magic, as some are drastically game altering things.
This is especially true at higher levels of play.

If you have spheres (or want the pdf, which is a lot cheaper), the advanced talents basically says -- this kind of magic can drastically alter play.

The ability to teleport or to plane shift, has already been mentioned.
Scrying type magic will drastically alter the game, at least potentially.
Conjuring creatures like Planar Binding or the like.

There are a bunch of them, to consider.

In a world where scrying is common, a villain who can challenge higher level adventurers probably has counters to scrying already in place.
Whether that is lining the walls of his lair in lead, which is relatively cheap and readily available, or other measures.
If that form of magic is fairly common in the setting, even minor nobility probably does the same as would many guild leaders.

If your group is the first higher level characters within a region, there may not be counters to the 'advanced magic' type effects.

It's quite possible, the PCs are only interacting with lieutenants of the main villain, and may initially assume one of those is the main source of threats without realizing it is only a captain or whatever.
In that case, the villain may be aware of the PCs before the PCs are aware of the villain.
Chances are, the villain could employ higher level effects against the PCs before the PCs know to guard against said effects.
So maybe the villain will scry the PCs periodically for a week or two, to learn about them.
Then with knowledge of their tactics, potentially go after them but it might be thematically better to hire them (through intermediaries) to do something which turns out to be nefarious... essentially using the PCs to further the villain's goals, as if they're (the PCs) his/her new best tool; then the PCs get to undo whatever they did, or try to counteract it's effect.

Not knowing who the ultimate bad guy is, can be a major defense to make them last a lot longer than if the PCs with higher resources/options are aware who the bad guy is earlier on.



The GMs guide to challenging encounters still applies, perhaps especially applies to higher level play.

Action Economy is definitely something to consider.
At higher levels of play, the PCs are going to have more actions.

Two creatures of CR 10 each, is going to be harder than one of CR 12, even if they're both EL 12 encounters.
And four creatures of CR 8 is probably going to be a better EL 12 battle than one or two higher creatures.

Google the Gm's Guide to Challenging Encounters, if you haven't read it.
It's a very good read.