Improved Counterspell vs Universal spells

[Crake]

In our latest tryst into the madness that is LordDrako it was brought up that a universal spell could not be countered using improved counterspell because universal "is not a school of magic". While this is obviously true in the most fundamental sense (the book literally says that Universal is not a school, but rather just a category where all the uncategorized spells go), I feel like this is something of an oversight, don't you think?

How many people would let improved counterspell use universal spells to counter universal spells?

[The Viscount]

I certainly would let a Universal spell be counterspelled by another Universal spell, but that seems to raise a different problem. To my knowledge there isn't a universal spell at every level, or even close. Would you just heighten a low level spell up to whatever you need by tossing on metamagic?

You could also accomplish it with 2 levels in Noctumancer, or 7 in Wyrm Wizard.

Or if you want to go way crazy, 3 levels of Jordain Vizier can do weird counterspelling of anything provided you roll right (or just boost the roll). This defense has no offense!

[Bad Wolf]

Id say no to counterspell. A school is defined as one of the following: Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, Divination, or Transmutation. It's specifically mentioned that Universal is not a school of magic.

Wasn't there a feat that allowed you to counterspell with Dispel Magic or something?

[Crake]

I certainly would let a Universal spell be counterspelled by another Universal spell, but that seems to raise a different problem. To my knowledge there isn't a universal spell at every level, or even close. Would you just heighten a low level spell up to whatever you need by tossing on metamagic?

You could also accomplish it with 2 levels in Noctumancer, or 7 in Wyrm Wizard.

Or if you want to go way crazy, 3 levels of Jordain Vizier can do weird counterspelling of anything provided you roll right (or just boost the roll). This defense has no offense!

At the time, for extra keks, I was using a heightened, sanctum prestidigitation (with an acorn of far travel to always be considered inside my sanctum) to cast a 10th level prestidigitation to counterspell.

Wyrm wizard's ability merely lets you use dispel magic to counter, which is only good up to a certain point, and in sufficiently high op shenannigans, a +20 CL cap doesn't do you any good, there's only so much you can do to boost that by other means, so the only realistic solution is to use improved counterspelling. Jordain Vizier suffers the same issue, because the DC is 5+CL, and they get their level (max 5)+1d20, so they cant dispel anything greater than CL20.

The end solution seemed to be "disjoin all CL raising buffs and then just counterspell using greater dispel magic, inquisition domain and arcane mastery to auto succeed", but personally I think that improved counterspell should function for universal spells, and it's good to know others feel the same way :smalltongue:

I feel like I'm just rambling at this point haha, it's been a long night, and I have a game to run in about 8 hours. Drow are on the moon.


Id say no to counterspell. A school is defined as one of the following: Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, Divination, or Transmutation. It's specifically mentioned that Universal is not a school of magic.

Wasn't there a feat that allowed you to counterspell with Dispel Magic or something?

You can counterspell with dispel magic (and it's greater version) anyway, but the problem arises with their CL cap, and the fact that you can easily boost CL to the point where they become useless in the exchange.

[Venger]

Id say no to counterspell. A school is defined as one of the following: Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, Divination, or Transmutation. It's specifically mentioned that Universal is not a school of magic.

Wasn't there a feat that allowed you to counterspell with Dispel Magic or something?

Are you talking about reactive counterspell or divine defiance?

[Psyren]

Which spell are we referring to? Remember that a spell can always counter itself. In addition, if the Universal spell in question is Wish, you could argue that as part of duplicating a spell it has to duplicate the school and other attributes too. (I mean, it would have to, otherwise you lose a whole lot of ancillary rules like the descriptors and subschools.)

[ben-zayb]

Which spell are we referring to? Remember that a spell can always counter itself. In addition, if the Universal spell in question is Wish, you could argue that as part of duplicating a spell it has to duplicate the school and other attributes too. (I mean, it would have to, otherwise you lose a whole lot of ancillary rules like the descriptors and subschools.)I dunno. If that's the intent, the school/sub school/descriptor would be "See text" like the other parameters.

[Inevitability]

I certainly would let a Universal spell be counterspelled by another Universal spell, but that seems to raise a different problem. To my knowledge there isn't a universal spell at every level, or even close. Would you just heighten a low level spell up to whatever you need by tossing on metamagic?

There actually is.

0. Prestidigitation
1. Familiar Pocket
2. Dragoneye Rune
3. Enhance Familiar
4. Mystic Surge
5. Permanency
6. Imbue Familiar with SLA
7. Limited Wish
8. Symbol (Magic of Faerun)
9. Wish

In addition, all these spells are on the sorcerer/wizard list, making it more than possible for a single caster to know them all.

[Hailofstoness]

Which spell are we referring to? Remember that a spell can always counter itself. In addition, if the Universal spell in question is Wish, you could argue that as part of duplicating a spell it has to duplicate the school and other attributes too. (I mean, it would have to, otherwise you lose a whole lot of ancillary rules like the descriptors and subschools.)
It's not wish. It's Greater Arcane Fusion

[Psyren]

I dunno. If that's the intent, the school/sub school/descriptor would be "See text" like the other parameters.

So then if you use Wish to imitate Summon Monster, you can summon a water elemental inside someone's lungs and drown them, right? Or summon a celestial elephant in midair over someone's head, crushing them? Without the Conjuration school, you lose the rules that kept you from doing that. Or if you use Wish to imitate an Enchantment spell, now you can control skeletons and vermin because it no longer has the [mind-affecting] tag. Or if you use Wish to mimic a polymorph spell, now you get all the special qualities of the creature in addition to their special attacks, and so on. Without descriptors and subschools this can get broken pretty quickly.


It's not wish. It's Greater Arcane Fusion

You can counterspell it with itself no matter how high their CL is. Or if they boost to epic proportions, make an epic spell (along the lines of Superb Dispelling) to do the same, adjusting the cap to whatever you need it to be and mitigating the development DC.

[Hailofstoness]

You can counterspell it with itself no matter how high their CL is. Or if they boost to epic proportions, make an epic spell (along the lines of Superb Dispelling) to do the same, adjusting the cap to whatever you need it to be and mitigating the development DC.

Are you using epic spells x spell level 8? lol
But dont worry, Supernatural Greater Arcane Fusion cant be counterspelled.

Also, CounterSpell need LoS and LoE, A towershield say no to your "epic counterspell" and stealth too.

[Psyren]

Are you using epic spells x spell level 8? lol

Hey, I never said it was a good option :smalltongue:



But dont worry, Supernatural Greater Arcane Fusion cant be counterspelled.

The OP didn't say anything about supernatural though.



Also, CounterSpell need LoS and LoE, A towershield say no to your "epic counterspell" and stealth too.

Actually I'm having trouble locating that rule. As long as you identify the spell being cast you can counter it I thought?

You have to identify an opponent but I would think all you need to do is know he is there.

[Hailofstoness]

Actually I'm having trouble locating that rule. As long as you identify the spell being cast you can counter it I thought?

You have to identify an opponent but I would think all you need to do is know he is there.

To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell

[Inevitability]

To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell

Battlemagic Perception lets you counterspell as long as you have line of effect.

[Hailofstoness]

Towershield block line of effect

[Inevitability]

Towershield block line of effect

1. The rules say that lack of LoE means total cover, not the other way around.

2. Tower shields explicitly do not provide cover against targeted spells.

[Hailofstoness]

1. The rules say that lack of LoE means total cover, not the other way around.

2. Tower shields explicitly do not provide cover against targeted spells.

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Battlefield Perception too.

Reflective Shield and Spell Turning. That will be funny.

but WTF we are talking about epic spell. LOL

[ApplePen]

So then if you use Wish to imitate Summon Monster, you can summon a water elemental inside someone's lungs and drown them, right?
Yes, actually, though normally they call this spell "drown" and there's DM Dickery that can occur.

Or summon a celestial elephant in midair over someone's head, crushing them? also entirely doable with wish

Without the Conjuration school, you lose the rules that kept you from doing that. Or if you use Wish to imitate an Enchantment spell, now you can control skeletons and vermin because it no longer has the [mind-affecting] tag. this is something I've seen done; using Wish to get around immunity to mind effecting.

Or if you use Wish to mimic a polymorph spell, now you get all the special qualities of the creature in addition to their special attacks, and so on. Without descriptors and subschools this can get broken pretty quickly. this is why it is called Wish and why it is encouraged for the DM to **** with it if it sees abuse. Also why it's costs are so prohibitive.




You can counterspell it with itself no matter how high their CL is. Or if they boost to epic proportions, make an epic spell (along the lines of Superb Dispelling) to do the same, adjusting the cap to whatever you need it to be and mitigating the development DC.
Entirely accurate.

For example, look at Summon Monster 1 or Planar binding, Lesser at Mind Blank, and at the text in Wish.

Wish goes to great lengths to point out that if it duplicates a spell's effect, you must pay any mentioned XP cost and material components.
It does not say you adopt the spell's casting time or types.

Planar binding and summon monster do point out that if cast to summon x things, it becomes a spell of x type. (By RAW, Wish can become any of those types of spell by duplicating summon monster as well)

Mind blank starts out by providing immunity to spells of the divination school, then goes out of its way to point out it also foils wish when it is being used to duplicate such spells or otherwise obtain information about the target.

Point being, wish is it's own thing and all the extra association with root spells are pointed out specifically. Meaning other ties are excluded by default.
Planar binding and summon monster prove that the developers knew that adding tags to a spell based on how it is used is possible, and omitted the text from Wish.

So yes, Wish is still universal and 9th level while duplicating Dominate Person, and lacks the [Mind affecting] and [Enchantment] tags.

As an aside, this ruling makes stacked immunity to Fear and Enchantment make sense, as Cause Fear still causes a Fear effect outcome (which the target can be immune to regardless of it being Wished upon them) and so immunity to Fear becomes harder to break than immunity to mind affecting or Enchantment.

Unless you are a dread witch casting wish to cause fear. Then you just blaze through all immunity, and can enjoy putting fear effects on constructs, plants, and undead or even objects if you really wanted to spend the XP.

[Psyren]

also entirely doable with wish

It is, but using the transport travelers function (which has a saving throw and SR) not via summoning (which doesn't.)


this is something I've seen done; using Wish to get around immunity to mind effecting.
this is why it is called Wish and why it is encouraged for the DM to **** with it if it sees abuse. Also why it's costs are so prohibitive.

Well obviously Wish can do anything if we go outside the safe uses, but the examples I cited were duplicating spells and thus nominally safe.



So yes, Wish is still universal and 9th level while duplicating Dominate Person, and lacks the [Mind affecting] and [Enchantment] tags.

Yeah, no way in hell would I rule it that way at my table.

[Crake]

In case you guys hadn't figured it out, Hailofstoness is lord drako

[Hailofstoness]

In case you guys hadn't figured it out, Hailofstoness is lord drako
You Sprinter Wizard fail was detailed. Watch

[Psyren]

We got that, and also the specific instruction from the mods to not discuss that. What we're discussing in this thread are the properties of Universal school spells and nothing more.

[Crake]

We got that, and also the specific instruction from the mods to not discuss that. What we're discussing in this thread are the properties of Universal school spells and nothing more.

Right you are, I suppose I should add to the circumstances that the universal spell in question is irrelevant, and I'm looking for a mid OP solution, not someone capable of casting literally any spell to counterspell the specific caster in question.

My normal solution is to raise the dispel check high enough that you can take 10 with a dispel (using arcane mastery) and auto succeed, but because, at high levels, it's quite easy to boost your caster level while greater dispel doesn't continue to scale as such.

Thus, improved counterspell and some ability to spontaneously cast at least 1 spell from each school seems to become the only practical solution to your dispelling needs. That's when universal comes and ruins everything, because while I could have casters simply have spontaneous access to every spell ever, I don't want to, because that just makes things spiral out of control.

As for my 2 cents regarding applepen's off topic post:

While wish itself when cast is a universal spell, the spell you're duplicating, and it's resultant effects, still have their associated descriptors. You're casting a universal spell, but you're duplicating an enchantment (compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] effect.

Thus, the wish spell does not have the mind affecting tag, but the effect that the wish spell is reproducing does. It's not that the wish you're casting becomes enchantment, it's that the effect of the wish spell produces an enchantment effect.

So for the purposes of this thread, casting wish to duplicate a spell, wish is still technically a universal spell when cast, but it's effect may be any other school with any other descriptor, based on what you duplicate.

Feel free to bring that debate to another thread though, because it's not exactly relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Swaoeaeieu]

disclaimer: i do not know much about casters and rule-lawyering.

but i do find this question interesting. Because, if to counterspell you need a spell of the same school. That would either mean that a universal spell cant be countered unless by the exact same spell, or using improved counterspell you could be able to counter it with another universal spell, making universal count as a school of magic for counterspelling reasons.

Regarding spells that simulate another spell like wish. If your cant counterspell a universal spell, it still emulates another spell wich does have a school. I think that means you can then counter the emulated spell.

anyway, that is my limited vieuw on the matter. just wanted to immerse myself in the wonderfull world of the caster conversations

[The Viscount]

Jordain Vizier suffers the same issue, because the DC is 5+CL, and they get their level (max 5)+1d20, so they cant dispel anything greater than CL20.

Oh I was assuming you'd use the few abilities that could boost anything, like luck domain to counterspell whatever, but yeah it's sub-par.

Noctumancer's the better option since it can counterspell regardless of CL (though limited times per day).

[Inevitability]

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you.

That only says that if I lack line of effect, my foe has total cover. It doesn't say I lack line of effect if a foe has total cover.

If A means B, B does not necessarily mean A.


You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Allow me to dig up one of 3.5's most heavily debated topics: what exactly constitutes 'an attack'?

If we assume 'an attack' includes only stuff with attack rolls, then it's pretty obvious that counterspelling isn't an attack, and therefore can be used against a target with total cover.

If, instead, Invisibility's definition of 'attack' is used, then counterspelling still isn't prevented. After all, it isn't a spell cast at or around a foe. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131411-Does-counterspelling-break-your-Invisibility) agrees that counterspelling doesn't violate Invisibility's definition of attack.

If we do consider counterspelling a spell, then it still works, as tower shields explicitly don't block spells.

To sum it up:

1. Your tower shield does not remove line of effect.
2. The total cover it does grant you, does not affect my ability to counterspell.
3. Therefore, I can counterspell you even if you're hiding behind a tower shield.

[Crake]

Oh I was assuming you'd use the few abilities that could boost anything, like luck domain to counterspell whatever, but yeah it's sub-par.

Noctumancer's the better option since it can counterspell regardless of CL (though limited times per day).

Noctumancer also suffers from needing to dip into shadow casting :smalltongue:


disclaimer: i do not know much about casters and rule-lawyering.

but i do find this question interesting. Because, if to counterspell you need a spell of the same school. That would either mean that a universal spell cant be countered unless by the exact same spell, or using improved counterspell you could be able to counter it with another universal spell, making universal count as a school of magic for counterspelling reasons.

Regarding spells that simulate another spell like wish. If your cant counterspell a universal spell, it still emulates another spell wich does have a school. I think that means you can then counter the emulated spell.

anyway, that is my limited vieuw on the matter. just wanted to immerse myself in the wonderfull world of the caster conversations

Remember, counterspelling prevents the effect from coming into being by unweaving the magic as it is being woven by the caster. In the case of wish, the spell being cast is universal, so you would need a universal counterspell. You wouldn't be able to counterspell the school being duplicated by the wish, because the effect is not being "cast" so to speak, it's being produced by the universal magic of the wish.

That's just the way I see it anyway.

[OldTrees1]

Thus, improved counterspell and some ability to spontaneously cast at least 1 spell from each school seems to become the only practical solution to your dispelling needs. That's when universal comes and ruins everything, because while I could have casters simply have spontaneous access to every spell ever, I don't want to, because that just makes things spiral out of control.

-snip-

for the purposes of this thread, casting wish to duplicate a spell, wish is still technically a universal spell when cast, but it's effect may be any other school with any other descriptor, based on what you duplicate.

Well, I think RAW leaves you in a tricky position due to:
1) Playing at an OP level where caster level outstrips Greater Dispel Magic
2) Improved Counterspell requiring the spells share a school while not every spell has a school.

So if my answer were restricted to RAW, then you would want to accept some uncounterable spells.

However if I can deviate from RAW:
Improved Counterspell expands your options from Specialized Dispelling spells & Identical spells to Similar spells(hence why it sticks in the same school). Universal spells are not necessarily similar to each other. Allowing uncounterable spells is undesirable, however I would be more prone to resolving the issue by changing factor 1 than change factor 2. Either lower the expected caster level or alter Greater Dispel Magic to suit the higher than expected caster level.

Summary: No I would not allow universal spells to be used by or countered by Improved Counterspell. Instead I would alter the dispel series of spells to match the higher caster level resulting from how the game I was running was deviating from the expected.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Remember, counterspelling prevents the effect from coming into being by unweaving the magic as it is being woven by the caster. In the case of wish, the spell being cast is universal, so you would need a universal counterspell. You wouldn't be able to counterspell the school being duplicated by the wish, because the effect is not being "cast" so to speak, it's being produced by the universal magic of the wish.

That's just the way I see it anyway.

Yes that is what i said, but i meant that you would indeed need a universal spell to counter wish in the case that improved counterspell makes universal spells count as their own school of spells (wich is up for debater). If imp. counter does NOT make universal spells able to counter universal spells i would say you can still counter the effect caused by wish.

i think we agree with eachother, i just have trouble putting it into words...

[RedMage125]

If we do consider counterspelling a spell, then it still works, as tower shields explicitly don't block spells.

To sum it up:

1. Your tower shield does not remove line of effect.
2. The total cover it does grant you, does not affect my ability to counterspell.
3. Therefore, I can counterspell you even if you're hiding behind a tower shield.

Especially because if the tower shield DID block LoS and LoE, then he couldn't cast any spells at you, either. By the very fact that we are discussing counterspelling means that the caster with the shield is poking his head around the shield in order to target YOU with whichever spell you are trying to counter.

So, even if you DID rule that tower shield=total cover, him poking his head around to cast his own spell means he has "improved cover" (PHB pg 152), which is a +8 to AC, but no longer "total cover". Since counterspell is triggered by him starting his casting and interrupts the full effect of said casting, he is clearly NOT behind total cover at the moment of the counterspell.

*drops microphone*

Lord Drako fails time and time again.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.
:wink:

[Hailofstonesss]

Especially because if the tower shield DID block LoS and LoE, then he couldn't cast any spells at you, either. By the very fact that we are discussing counterspelling means that the caster with the shield is poking his head around the shield in order to target YOU with whichever spell you are trying to counter.

So, even if you DID rule that tower shield=total cover, him poking his head around to cast his own spell means he has "improved cover" (PHB pg 152), which is a +8 to AC, but no longer "total cover". Since counterspell is triggered by him starting his casting and interrupts the full effect of said casting, he is clearly NOT behind total cover at the moment of the counterspell.

*drops microphone*

Lord Drako fails time and time again.

My offense has no defense.

I have already proved it.
:wink:


All Right REDMAGE!? Still noob?

1) Supernatural Greater Arcane Fusion can not be countepelled. Cry more.
2) Earth Greater Arcane Fusion can not be counterspelled as it is a Universal Spell.Cry More
3) Noob, We're talking about "Epic Dispell", because Dispel or Greater Dispell does not work against Black Scar, as it has caster lvl 64. Cry more Noob.
4) Towershield prevents you from attacking, that's right. But, Greater Arcane Fusion is Target: Personal, Celerity is also Target: Personal. Its not a offensive spell or attack. Now I have Total Cover and I have 12 Standard Action +6 Movement Action. Also Share it with my Great Wyrm Dragon Pet and Ice Assassin.
Yes, they also have multiple spells per round. CRY!
5) I'll love being the target of EPIC DISPELL, Spell Turning and Reflective Shield says hello!


REDMAGE fail again !!
MY RAW AND ATTACK HAS NO DEFENSE.

I have alread proved it.
Kisses

[Hailofstonesss]

OMG, REDMAGE FAIL AGAIN, Epic Counterspell and Superb Dispelling, Pg 79. Dispel check max +40


YOU FAIL AGAIN! Black Scar have 64 CL. CRY MORE



BLACK SCAR ATTACK HAS NO DEFENSE.

[Swaoeaeieu]

OMG, REDMAGE FAIL AGAIN, Epic Counterspell and Superb Dispelling, Pg 79. Dispel check max +40


YOU FAIL AGAIN! Black Scar have 64 CL. CRY MORE



BLACK SCAR ATTACK HAS NO DEFENSE.

we arent talking about black scar. whatever that is supposed to be. Be are trying to figure out how improved counterspell interacts with universal spells as there are no clear rules about it. feel free to discuss your own topic in another thread

[RedMage125]

we arent talking about black scar. whatever that is supposed to be. Be are trying to figure out how improved counterspell interacts with universal spells as there are no clear rules about it. feel free to discuss your own topic in another thread

Black Scar is Lord Drako's utter failure of a sorcerer build.

Requires Dragon Magazine content and 3rd party content (Dragonlance may be endorsed, but is not a WotC product, ergo, 3rd party). So it's not legal by any competition standards adhered to on these boards.

He's SUPER defensive about it, because he thinks he's the greatest optimizer ever, and that he understands the rules in a way that the rest of us don't.

Everything he posts is about his build in some way, shape or form. Doesn't matter what a thread's topic is supposed to be about.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i have noticed those threads yes ;)
im just saying that in the context of this thread, saying the name black scarr has no meaning, only quoting existing rules and speculation on the intended useage

[ApplePen]

I went and dug up references and spell interactions to show that Wish doesn't duplicate schools and the thread turned into Cowboys and Indians over some pair of builds :/

[Vampire1]

Black Scar is Lord Drako's utter failure of a sorcerer build.

Requires Dragon Magazine content and 3rd party content (Dragonlance may be endorsed, but is not a WotC product, ergo, 3rd party). So it's not legal by any competition standards adhered to on these boards.

He's SUPER defensive about it, because he thinks he's the greatest optimizer ever, and that he understands the rules in a way that the rest of us don't.

Everything he posts is about his build in some way, shape or form. Doesn't matter what a thread's topic is supposed to be about.

REDMAGE fails again!
MY RAW AND ATTACK DOES NOT HAVE DEFENSE.

I have alread proved it.



All right noob?

I'll tell you something little boy. Look at all the old build(Lord Drako and Sorcerer Villain Handbook), I've always banned Dragon Mag.
But when I was going to destroy the Wizard Spellbook .... the first thing they said was ... Eidetic Wizard (Dragon mag) does not need spellbook.
And every time I said that wizard was inferior in metamagic, because the Sorcerer Can Use Practical Metamagic Feat and reduce to +0.
Guess what they said? Hey Lord Drako noob, Wizards has Easy Metamagic (Dragon mag).
99% of the Otimized Wizards use, Eidetic Wizard / Easy Metamagic and others.


So now I use all OFFICIAL AND LICENSED books!
Again, OFFICIAL AND LICENSED.



So stop crying little children and admit that BLACK SCAR is invincible.

[JNAProductions]

Please, no one respond to the childish outburst. Treat the thread as if those posts just don't exist.

On topic, is there any consensus about how these two interact?

[JoshuaZ]

Please, no one respond to the childish outburst. Treat the thread as if those posts just don't exist.

On topic, is there any consensus about how these two interact?

I don't know about consensus. It seems that the RAW is that Universal is not a school and thus one cannot used Improved Counterspell to counter this way, but I suspect that most people would if it came up in a game houserule that it does work.

[OldTrees1]

I don't know about consensus. It seems that the RAW is that Universal is not a school and thus one cannot used Improved Counterspell to counter this way, but I suspect that most people would if it came up in a game houserule that it does work.

I agree about the RAW.

However I would not houserule that it does work. Rather I would alter the Dispel Magic chain(increase the caster level for the dispel chain and possibly allowing Disjunction to perfectly counterspell).

I do not know what the majority would rule. However I suspect the majority would not allow universal spells to be uncounterable.

[Swaoeaeieu]

seems to me the only problem in the rules is that some spells have the universal descriptor but universal not being an official school of magic. And counterspell requires a school of magic.

easy answer to me would be to accept universal as a school for the purpose of counterspell. because leaving a whole group of spells uncounterable seems like a bigger problem to me.

[RedMage125]

seems to me the only problem in the rules is that some spells have the universal descriptor but universal not being an official school of magic. And counterspell requires a school of magic.

easy answer to me would be to accept universal as a school for the purpose of counterspell. because leaving a whole group of spells uncounterable seems like a bigger problem to me.

That "whole group of spells" is only a handful. From the Core book, there's 2 cantrips, and then Permanency, Limited Wish and Wish.

Spell Compendium adds Familiar Pocket, Enhance Familiar and Fortify Familiar (both of which should be Transmutation, really), and Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (should be Evocation, like the Cleric spell).

So, aside from the fact that the writers of the Spell Compendium thought that any spell that relates to familiars should be Universal, you really only have Limited Wish and Wish as spells of the Universal school that you would WANT to counter.

[OldTrees1]

That "whole group of spells" is only a handful. From the Core book, there's 2 cantrips, and then Permanency, Limited Wish and Wish.

Spell Compendium adds Familiar Pocket, Enhance Familiar and Fortify Familiar (both of which should be Transmutation, really), and Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability (should be Evocation, like the Cleric spell).

So, aside from the fact that the writers of the Spell Compendium thought that any spell that relates to familiars should be Universal, you really only have Limited Wish and Wish as spells of the Universal school that you would WANT to counter.

Complete Mage added Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion to the list that you would want to counter.

[Truemadness]

Complete Mage added Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion to the list that you would want to counter.

It's Why Sorcerer is so Dangerous.
Greater Arcane Fusion is the most powerful spell to Optimizer.
It's Universal, Target:Personal, Instantaneous
It cant be counterable, You can Share Greater Arcane Fusion with your Familiar/Dragon Mount/Ice Assassin.
Also, it's Target Personal(Not a offensive spells), you can use Towershield + GAF.

[Crake]

It's Why Sorcerer is so Dangerous.
Greater Arcane Fusion is the most powerful spell to Optimizer.
It's Universal, Target:Personal, Instantaneous
It cant be counterable, You can Share Greater Arcane Fusion with your Familiar/Dragon Mount/Ice Assassin.
Also, it's Target Personal(Not a offensive spells), you can use Towershield + GAF.

Too bad wizards can still cast arcane fusion, and since "spells known" for a wizard count as any spell in their spellbook, it's actually way more effective on a wizard, as it gives you spontaneous access to your entire spellbook.

It's fine though, as the thread made a consensus, you either house rule improved counterspell to work with universal, bump up the dispel line to scale better, or if you have to stick absolutely raw, just gain spontaneous access to the entire list of all spells in DND.

[Truemadness]

Too bad wizards can still cast arcane fusion, and since "spells known" for a wizard count as any spell in their spellbook, it's actually way more effective on a wizard, as it gives you spontaneous access to your entire spellbook.

It's fine though, as the thread made a consensus, you either house rule improved counterspell to work with universal, bump up the dispel line to scale better, or if you have to stick absolutely raw, just gain spontaneous access to the entire list of all spells in DND.
No, sorry, Greater Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spells.

Wizards cant cast it.
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55327963.jpg

[JNAProductions]

Okay. So you can't cast any Sorcerer/Wizard spells, then, because those aren't Sorcerer spells.

[Truemadness]

Okay. So you can't cast any Sorcerer/Wizard spells, then, because those aren't Sorcerer spells.

Sorcerer/Wizard list

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ItlMi3P8tw/hqdefault.jpg


I know Wizards want be a sorcerer! Admit it!

[Crake]

Sorcerer/Wizard list


I know Wizards want be a sorcerer! Admit it!

I know you try so hard to deny it, but there are sooooo many ways to cast spells that aren't on your list in 3.5 it's not even funny.

[Truemadness]

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer OR wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 8th level or lower.


Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard OR sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Arcane Fusion, Greater

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 8,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two powerful spells together in your mind and release them in a single intertwined display of magical prowess.
This spell works like arcane fusion, except that you choose any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know and any 7th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know to cast together.


Wizard know wizard spells.
Sorcerer know Sorcerer Spells.


My RAW has no defense.

[nyjastul69]

I know you try so hard to deny it, but there are sooooo many ways to cast spells that aren't on your list in 3.5 it's not even funny.

Not the least of which is extra spell.

In regards to the current debate, since they are Universal spells why not let all schools be able to counter them?

[Truemadness]

In regards to the current debate, since they are Universal spells why not let all schools be able to counter them?
By RAW, Universal spells cant be counterspelled.

[Crake]

By RAW, Universal spells cant be counterspelled.

Except by casting the right spell, or by using an appropriately leveled dispel magic, we all understand that, that conclusion was reached in literally the opening post, this discussion has been for a while about houserules to fix that hole in the system, so why not get out of your little bubble and participate in the discussion at hand, or just go make your own thread to discuss the issues you want to bring up, though you're probably gonna be banned pretty soon anyway.

[Truemadness]

Except by casting the right spell, or by using an appropriately leveled dispel magic, we all understand that, that conclusion was reached in literally the opening post, this discussion has been for a while about houserules to fix that hole in the system, so why not get out of your little bubble and participate in the discussion at hand, or just go make your own thread to discuss the issues you want to bring up, though you're probably gonna be banned pretty soon anyway.
Universal Cant be Counterspelled by Improved Counterspell.

High Caster Level beat dispell.

[RedMage125]

One of two things is true about Greater Arcane Fusion:

1) Spells on the Sor/Wiz list are both Sorcerer spells AND Wizard spells, and therefore, a Wizard may use Wish to duplicate GAF and cast any 4th and 7th level Sor/Wiz spells that he knows, because those spells are both. In which case, Lord Drako is once again wrong about how the rules work, just like always.

OR

2) Sorcerer spells are distinct from Sor/Wiz spells. In which case, GAF can only be used to combine two SORCERER ONLY spells. Which means Celerity, Hail of Stone, and whatever other spells Drako claims to use GAF on are not eligible. In which case, Drako's build fails again, just like always.

So...which is it? Is Drako wrong about Wizards not being able to use GAF, or is he wrong about how his own build works? One of these things is true.

My RAW has no defense.

I have already proved it.

[nyjastul69]

By RAW, Universal spells cant be counterspelled.

And this statement has no bearing in regard to my post.

[Psyren]

(It's also quite wrong, as Crake covered)

[Clearminion]

One of two things is true about Greater Arcane Fusion:

1) Spells on the Sor/Wiz list are both Sorcerer spells AND Wizard spells, and therefore, a Wizard may use Wish to duplicate GAF and cast any 4th and 7th level Sor/Wiz spells that he knows, because those spells are both. In which case, Lord Drako is once again wrong about how the rules work, just like always.

OR

2) Sorcerer spells are distinct from Sor/Wiz spells. In which case, GAF can only be used to combine two SORCERER ONLY spells. Which means Celerity, Hail of Stone, and whatever other spells Drako claims to use GAF on are not eligible. In which case, Drako's build fails again, just like always.

So...which is it? Is Drako wrong about Wizards not being able to use GAF, or is he wrong about how his own build works? One of these things is true.

My RAW has no defense.

I have already proved it.


1)
By RAW, Wizard or Sorcerer Spells are different.
Wish
Duplicate any wizard OR sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower
Shadow Conjuration
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer OR wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower


Arcane Fusion
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know.

You need sorcerer levels to cast Sorcerer Spells know (Know spells table).
Table: Sorcerer Spells Known

this is EXPLICIT not Sorcerer/Wizards spells know Table.



Mage’s Lucubration
Transmutation
Level: Wiz 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
You instantly recall any one spell of 5th level or lower that you have used during the past 24 hours. The spell must have been actually cast during that period. The recalled spell is stored in your mind as through prepared in the normal fashion.

If the recalled spell requires material components, you must provide them. The recovered spell is not usable until the material components are available.

It's Wizard only Spells, It explict all spells.



Sorcerer spells is EXPLICT, Spells know and learn as Sorcerer

Mage Lucubration is Wizard Only Spells,It's EXPLICT and not restrict to Wizard spells. Cry more




I know your wish to cast sorcerer spells. But Cry, Wish and Shadow conjuration explicit show that different Sorcerer OR Wizard spells.






MY RAY HAS NO DEFENSE. Cry more

[Clearminion]

MONSTER MANUAL V, PG. 88


HOBGOBLIN WARSOUL
Like an undead creature, this hobgoblin is incredibly emaciated,
and her skin is pulled tight across her bony frame. Her red robes
and staff mark her as a spellcaster of some sort.
Hobgoblin Warsoul CR 8
Usually LE Medium monstrous humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +8, Spot +10
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant,
Goblin
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17
(+3 Dex, +2 armor, +1 deflection, +4 natural)
hp 88 (10 HD); DR 10/magic
SR 18
Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +13; +2 against spells, spell eater
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee mwk quarterstaff +10/+5 (1d6–1)
Ranged mwk dagger +14/+9 (1d4–1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp +9
Atk Options magic strike
Special Actions soul tyrant
Combat Gear brooch of shielding, potion of cure serious wounds
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 9th):
5th—cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4th—dimension door, shout (DC 20), wall of ice
3rd—dispel magic, fi reball (DC 19), haste, lightning bolt
(DC 19)
2nd—false life, fl aming sphere (DC 18), scorching ray (+14
ranged touch), shatter (DC 18), web (DC 17)
1st—expeditious retreat, grease (DC 16), mage armor, magic
missile (2), shield
0—daze (DC 15), flare (DC 16), resistance, read magic
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th):
At will—detect magic
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 15
SA magic strike, soul tyrant, spell-like abilities, spells
SQ arcane talent, cult of power
Feats Battle Magic Tactics*, Combat Casting, Improved
Initiative, Iron WillB, Spell Focus (evocation)
* New feat; see sidebar, page 84.
Skills Concentration +17 (+21 casting defensively),
Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +17,
Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spellcraft +20, Spot +10
Advancement by character class; Favored Class wizard
Possessions combat gear plus bracers of armor +2, ring of
protection +1, masterwork staff, 3 masterwork daggers,
cloak of resistance +2
Spellbook spells prepared plus 0—all in PH; 1st—cause
fear, chill touch, endure elements, mount, protection
from good, ray of enfeeblement; 2nd—detect thoughts,
ghoul touch, scare, whispering wind; 3rd—clairaudience/
clairvoyance, tongues; 4th—lesser geas, scrying; 5th—
teleport, magic jar
Spell Eater (Su) If a warsoul succeeds on her save against a
spell, she gains 5 temporary hit points and a +2 bonus
on attack rolls. The attack bonus lasts for 1 round. The
temporary hit points last for 1 minute.
Soul Tyrant (Su) As a swift action, a warsoul can draw arcane
power from a willing hobgoblin within 30 feet who has 10
or fewer hit points. That hobgoblin is immediately slain,
leaving behind a desiccated corpse. The warsoul heals 1
hit point per Hit Die she has, and she receives a +2 bonus
to the save DC of the next spell she casts. She also gains
a +2 bonus on any attack roll required by the next spell
she casts. If that spell deals damage, the warsoul receives
a bonus on the damage roll equal to her Hit Dice.
Arcane Talent (Ex) A warsoul casts spells as a 9th-level
wizard.
Cult of Power (Ex) A warsoul is accompanied by 2d4 1stlevel
hobgoblin warriors who have sworn their lives to
her. These thralls willingly sacrifice themselves for their
master’s soul tyrant ability.










MMV, pg. 185
Arkamoi CR 4
Usually NE Medium monstrous humanoid
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Undercommon
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
(+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 29 (4 HD); DR 5/slashing or piercing
SR 14
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +5
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6)
Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d8/19–20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; Grp +4
Special Actions arcane mastermind
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 4th); strength from magic:
2nd (5/day)—Melf’s acid arrow (+6 ranged touch), mirror
image
1st (7/day)—burning hands (DC 13), disguise self, jump,
mage armor
0 (6/day)—daze (DC 12), detect magic, fl are (DC 12), light,
ray of frost (+6 ranged touch), read magic
Abilities Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 15
SA spells, strength from magic
SQ arcane talent
Feats Combat Casting, Toughness
Skills Concentration +9, Hide +9, Knowledge (arcana) +9,
Listen +1, Spellcraft +11, Spot +1
Advancement by character class; Favored Class sorcerer;
see text
Possessions quarterstaff, light crossbow with 20 bolts
Arcane Mastermind (Ex) When an arkamoi’s bonus to spell
save DCs from its strength from magic ability is +3 or
higher, its mind begins to work with lightning precision.
Once per round, as an immediate action, the arkamoi
can lend tactical advice to an ally. This effect grants a +2
morale bonus on that ally’s next check, attack roll, or
damage roll.
Strength from Magic (Ex) Each time an arkamoi casts an
arcane spell, magical feedback grants it a rush of power.
For each arcane spell cast, an arkamoi increases the save
DC of subsequent arcane spells it casts by 1. Additionally,
the arkamoi gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls for
subsequent spells, and gains a +2 deflection bonus to
AC. These benefits last for 1 minute starting in the round
during which the arkamoi finishes casting its first spell of
the encounter.
Bonuses stack each time an arkamoi casts an arcane
spell within that minute, to a maximum of a +5 bonus
to save DCs, a +10 bonus on damage rolls, and a +10
deflection bonus to AC. At the end of that minute, all
these bonuses disappear. They could begin accumulating
again if the arkemoi casts more spells.
Arcane Talent (Ex) An arkamoi casts spells as a 4th-level
sorcerer.




Wizard spells, Casted By Wizard class

Sorcerer spells, Casted By Sorcerer Class





Arcane Fusion

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 5,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two spells together in your mind and release them in a single burst of magic.
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.
If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion.










Wizards cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion
MY RAW HAS NO DEFENSE!

[RedMage125]

1)
By RAW, Wizard or Sorcerer Spells are different.



Then by that same ruling, Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion CANNOT be used to combine Sor/Wiz spells. It can ONLY combine spells which are Sorcerer-ONLY.

Look, even with the rules YOU quoted:




Arcane Fusion

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 5,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two spells together in your mind and release them in a single burst of magic.
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.
If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion.

SORCERER spells, not Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

If these are distinctly separate, then you cannot use GAF to combine Greater Celerity, or Hail of Stone, because those are Sor/Wiz spells, and NOT "Sorcerer" spells.

It's one way or the other, you don't get to say that "Sor/Wiz spells" are different from "Sorcerer spells" when you want to, and then claim they are the same when you want to within the same ruling.

[Crake]

Then by that same ruling, Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion CANNOT be used to combine Sor/Wiz spells. It can ONLY combine spells which are Sorcerer-ONLY.

Look, even with the rules YOU quoted:


SORCERER spells, not Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

If these are distinctly separate, then you cannot use GAF to combine Greater Celerity, or Hail of Stone, because those are Sor/Wiz spells, and NOT "Sorcerer" spells.

It's one way or the other, you don't get to say that "Sor/Wiz spells" are different from "Sorcerer spells" when you want to, and then claim they are the same when you want to within the same ruling.

I understand the distinction you're both trying to make: if what clearminion was trying to say was correct, it would be worded as "Spells you know as a sorcerer" not "Sorcerer spells you know" so actually, you're correct redmage, it's either anyone can use it to cast sorcerer only spells that they know, or anyone can use it to cast spells on the sorcerer list that they know. Either a) it's a much weaker spell than everyone thinks, or b) it's a very useful spell that anyone can utilize, as long as they know spells that are on the sorcerer spell list. Luckily for wizards, that's practically every spell they know :smalltongue:

Now, enough about this derailment, clearminion, if you want to continue arguing, go make another thread.

[Clearminion]

Then by that same ruling, Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion CANNOT be used to combine Sor/Wiz spells. It can ONLY combine spells which are Sorcerer-ONLY.

Look, even with the rules YOU quoted:


SORCERER spells, not Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

If these are distinctly separate, then you cannot use GAF to combine Greater Celerity, or Hail of Stone, because those are Sor/Wiz spells, and NOT "Sorcerer" spells.

It's one way or the other, you don't get to say that "Sor/Wiz spells" are different from "Sorcerer spells" when you want to, and then claim they are the same when you want to within the same ruling.

No. Cry more, no rules about it.

MONSTER MANUAL V, PG. 88


HOBGOBLIN WARSOUL
Like an undead creature, this hobgoblin is incredibly emaciated,
and her skin is pulled tight across her bony frame. Her red robes
and staff mark her as a spellcaster of some sort.
Hobgoblin Warsoul CR 8
Usually LE Medium monstrous humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +8, Spot +10
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant,
Goblin
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17
(+3 Dex, +2 armor, +1 deflection, +4 natural)
hp 88 (10 HD); DR 10/magic
SR 18
Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +13; +2 against spells, spell eater
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee mwk quarterstaff +10/+5 (1d6–1)
Ranged mwk dagger +14/+9 (1d4–1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp +9
Atk Options magic strike
Special Actions soul tyrant
Combat Gear brooch of shielding, potion of cure serious wounds
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 9th):
5th—cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4th—dimension door, shout (DC 20), wall of ice
3rd—dispel magic, fi reball (DC 19), haste, lightning bolt
(DC 19)
2nd—false life, fl aming sphere (DC 18), scorching ray (+14
ranged touch), shatter (DC 18), web (DC 17)
1st—expeditious retreat, grease (DC 16), mage armor, magic
missile (2), shield
0—daze (DC 15), flare (DC 16), resistance, read magic
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th):
At will—detect magic
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 15
SA magic strike, soul tyrant, spell-like abilities, spells
SQ arcane talent, cult of power
Feats Battle Magic Tactics*, Combat Casting, Improved
Initiative, Iron WillB, Spell Focus (evocation)
* New feat; see sidebar, page 84.
Skills Concentration +17 (+21 casting defensively),
Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +17,
Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spellcraft +20, Spot +10
Advancement by character class; Favored Class wizard
Possessions combat gear plus bracers of armor +2, ring of
protection +1, masterwork staff, 3 masterwork daggers,
cloak of resistance +2
Spellbook spells prepared plus 0—all in PH; 1st—cause
fear, chill touch, endure elements, mount, protection
from good, ray of enfeeblement; 2nd—detect thoughts,
ghoul touch, scare, whispering wind; 3rd—clairaudience/
clairvoyance, tongues; 4th—lesser geas, scrying; 5th—
teleport, magic jar
Spell Eater (Su) If a warsoul succeeds on her save against a
spell, she gains 5 temporary hit points and a +2 bonus
on attack rolls. The attack bonus lasts for 1 round. The
temporary hit points last for 1 minute.
Soul Tyrant (Su) As a swift action, a warsoul can draw arcane
power from a willing hobgoblin within 30 feet who has 10
or fewer hit points. That hobgoblin is immediately slain,
leaving behind a desiccated corpse. The warsoul heals 1
hit point per Hit Die she has, and she receives a +2 bonus
to the save DC of the next spell she casts. She also gains
a +2 bonus on any attack roll required by the next spell
she casts. If that spell deals damage, the warsoul receives
a bonus on the damage roll equal to her Hit Dice.
Arcane Talent (Ex) A warsoul casts spells as a 9th-level
wizard.
Cult of Power (Ex) A warsoul is accompanied by 2d4 1stlevel
hobgoblin warriors who have sworn their lives to
her. These thralls willingly sacrifice themselves for their
master’s soul tyrant ability.










MMV, pg. 185
Arkamoi CR 4
Usually NE Medium monstrous humanoid
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Undercommon
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
(+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 29 (4 HD); DR 5/slashing or piercing
SR 14
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +5
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6)
Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d8/19–20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; Grp +4
Special Actions arcane mastermind
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 4th); strength from magic:
2nd (5/day)—Melf’s acid arrow (+6 ranged touch), mirror
image
1st (7/day)—burning hands (DC 13), disguise self, jump,
mage armor
0 (6/day)—daze (DC 12), detect magic, fl are (DC 12), light,
ray of frost (+6 ranged touch), read magic
Abilities Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 15
SA spells, strength from magic
SQ arcane talent
Feats Combat Casting, Toughness
Skills Concentration +9, Hide +9, Knowledge (arcana) +9,
Listen +1, Spellcraft +11, Spot +1
Advancement by character class; Favored Class sorcerer;
see text
Possessions quarterstaff, light crossbow with 20 bolts
Arcane Mastermind (Ex) When an arkamoi’s bonus to spell
save DCs from its strength from magic ability is +3 or
higher, its mind begins to work with lightning precision.
Once per round, as an immediate action, the arkamoi
can lend tactical advice to an ally. This effect grants a +2
morale bonus on that ally’s next check, attack roll, or
damage roll.
Strength from Magic (Ex) Each time an arkamoi casts an
arcane spell, magical feedback grants it a rush of power.
For each arcane spell cast, an arkamoi increases the save
DC of subsequent arcane spells it casts by 1. Additionally,
the arkamoi gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls for
subsequent spells, and gains a +2 deflection bonus to
AC. These benefits last for 1 minute starting in the round
during which the arkamoi finishes casting its first spell of
the encounter.
Bonuses stack each time an arkamoi casts an arcane
spell within that minute, to a maximum of a +5 bonus
to save DCs, a +10 bonus on damage rolls, and a +10
deflection bonus to AC. At the end of that minute, all
these bonuses disappear. They could begin accumulating
again if the arkemoi casts more spells.
Arcane Talent (Ex) An arkamoi casts spells as a 4th-level
sorcerer.




Wizard spells, Casted By Wizard class

Sorcerer spells, Casted By Sorcerer Class





Arcane Fusion

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 5,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two spells together in your mind and release them in a single burst of magic.
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.
If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion.










Wizards cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion
MY RAW HAS NO DEFENSE!

[Clearminion]

I understand the distinction you're both trying to make: if what clearminion was trying to say was correct, it would be worded as "Spells you know as a sorcerer" not "Sorcerer spells you know" so actually, you're correct redmage, it's either anyone can use it to cast sorcerer only spells that they know, or anyone can use it to cast spells on the sorcerer list that they know. Either a) it's a much weaker spell than everyone thinks, or b) it's a very useful spell that anyone can utilize, as long as they know spells that are on the sorcerer spell list. Luckily for wizards, that's practically every spell they know :smalltongue:

Now, enough about this derailment, clearminion, if you want to continue arguing, go make another thread.

Your RAI Automatically fail. You dont know Sorcerer spells, you are Wizard.
If you pick Sorcerer levels, Black Scar will not kill you! Promise.
Cry more.

[Inevitability]

Perhaps you could try to explain what you're trying to say with these blocks of text? To me, it seems like you're just copying the description of a nice but rarely-used MMV monster, then insulting all people who disagree with you.

[Clearminion]

Perhaps you could try to explain what you're trying to say with these blocks of text? To me, it seems like you're just copying the description of a nice but rarely-used MMV monster, then insulting all people who disagree with you.

Elder Evil pg. 54
Character Build


Soelma Nilaenish CR 18
hp 104 (18 HD)
Female elf wizard 7/loremaster 10/rogue 1
NE Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven,
Giant, Gnome, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan
AC 20, touch 19, fl at-footed 16
Immune mind-affecting spells and abilities, magic sleep
effects
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +12; +2 against enchantments
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +3 unholy rapier of spell storing +10/+5 (1d6–1 plus 2d6
against good/18–20)
Base Atk +8; Grp +7
Atk Options sneak attack +1d6
Special Actions Deformity (madness), Refl exive Psychosis
Combat Gear 3 potions of cure serious wounds, potion of lesser
restoration, potion of neutralize poison, potion of protection
from good
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 17th):
9th—crushing fi st of spiteBoVD (DC 27)
8th—greater shout (DC 24), Otto’s irresistible dance
7th—ghostformCAr, reverse gravity, whirlwind of teethBoVD
(DC 23)
6th—chain lightning (DC 22), greater dispel magic, mislead
(DC 22), summon monster VI, true seeing
5th—baleful polymorph (DC 21), cloudkill (DC 21), friend
to foePH2 (DC 21), greater blinkCAr, greater fireburstCAr
(DC 21)
4th—bestow curse (DC 20), burning bloodCAr, greater
invisibility, stoneskin, wall of fire
3rd—drownBoVD (DC 19), evil eyeBoVD (DC 19), greater mage
armorCAr, vampiric touch, vertigo fieldPH2 (DC 19)
2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, electric vengeancePH2, mirror
image (2), resist energy (2)
1st—bestow woundBoVD (DC 17), mage armor, magic missile
(2), shield, true strike
0—ghost sound (DC 16), mage hand, prestidigitation,
resistance
Abilities Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 22, Wis 7, Cha 12
SQ dodge trick (loremaster secret; +1 dodge bonus to AC),
trapfi nding
Feats Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Deformity
(madness)B, Forge Ring, Improved ToughnessLM, Maximize
SpellB, Quicken Spell, Refl exive Psychosis, Scribe
ScrollB,Willing Deformity
Skills Bluff +22, Concentration +22, Decipher Script +26,
Diplomacy +3, Disguise +1 (+3 acting), Gather Information
+21, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge
(history) +26, Listen +0, Search +13, Spellcraft +28,
Survival –2 (+0 following tracks)
Possessions combat gear plus +3 spell storing unholy rapier,
bracers of armor +1, ring of protection +5, boots of the winterlands,
6 potions of undetectable alignment




Wizard dont know Sorcerer/Wizard spells. He know Wizard spells.

MY RAW HAS NO DEFENSE.

[Crake]

Your RAI Automatically fail. You dont know Sorcerer spells, you are Wizard.
If you pick Sorcerer levels, Black Scar will not kill you! Promise.
Cry more.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that logic has no meaning to you.


Perhaps you could try to explain what you're trying to say with these blocks of text? To me, it seems like you're just copying the description of a nice but rarely-used MMV monster, then insulting all people who disagree with you.

I'm pretty sure at this point he's either an autistic no lifer without the ability to accept that anything he says is wrong, or just a really bad troll.

[Inevitability]

autistic no lifer

First part of this is perhaps slightly infelicitous, though that may just be my pet peeves speaking.

Second part seems rather well established. Endlessly creating accounts to just stroke your own ego strikes me as the kind of thing only done when one has no better alternatives. Then again, everyone knew it already.

[Crake]

First part of this is perhaps slightly infelicitous, though that may just be my pet peeves speaking.

Second part seems rather well established. Endlessly creating accounts to just stroke your own ego strikes me as the kind of thing only done when one has no better alternatives. Then again, everyone knew it already.

I didn't mean it as an insult, I genuinely believe that, because only someone like that could be so clueless to the fact that he is not wanted around, and so resistant to change. If it's true though, it just annoys me, because it just engrains stereotypes, which make it harder for those who actually put in the effort to try and integrate.

[nyjastul69]

No. Cry more, no rules about it.

MONSTER MANUAL V, PG. 88


HOBGOBLIN WARSOUL
Like an undead creature, this hobgoblin is incredibly emaciated,
and her skin is pulled tight across her bony frame. Her red robes
and staff mark her as a spellcaster of some sort.
Hobgoblin Warsoul CR 8
Usually LE Medium monstrous humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +8, Spot +10
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant,
Goblin
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17
(+3 Dex, +2 armor, +1 deflection, +4 natural)
hp 88 (10 HD); DR 10/magic
SR 18
Fort +9, Ref +12, Will +13; +2 against spells, spell eater
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee mwk quarterstaff +10/+5 (1d6–1)
Ranged mwk dagger +14/+9 (1d4–1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp +9
Atk Options magic strike
Special Actions soul tyrant
Combat Gear brooch of shielding, potion of cure serious wounds
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 9th):
5th—cone of cold (DC 21), hold monster (DC 20)
4th—dimension door, shout (DC 20), wall of ice
3rd—dispel magic, fi reball (DC 19), haste, lightning bolt
(DC 19)
2nd—false life, fl aming sphere (DC 18), scorching ray (+14
ranged touch), shatter (DC 18), web (DC 17)
1st—expeditious retreat, grease (DC 16), mage armor, magic
missile (2), shield
0—daze (DC 15), flare (DC 16), resistance, read magic
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th):
At will—detect magic
Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 15
SA magic strike, soul tyrant, spell-like abilities, spells
SQ arcane talent, cult of power
Feats Battle Magic Tactics*, Combat Casting, Improved
Initiative, Iron WillB, Spell Focus (evocation)
* New feat; see sidebar, page 84.
Skills Concentration +17 (+21 casting defensively),
Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +17,
Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spellcraft +20, Spot +10
Advancement by character class; Favored Class wizard
Possessions combat gear plus bracers of armor +2, ring of
protection +1, masterwork staff, 3 masterwork daggers,
cloak of resistance +2
Spellbook spells prepared plus 0—all in PH; 1st—cause
fear, chill touch, endure elements, mount, protection
from good, ray of enfeeblement; 2nd—detect thoughts,
ghoul touch, scare, whispering wind; 3rd—clairaudience/
clairvoyance, tongues; 4th—lesser geas, scrying; 5th—
teleport, magic jar
Spell Eater (Su) If a warsoul succeeds on her save against a
spell, she gains 5 temporary hit points and a +2 bonus
on attack rolls. The attack bonus lasts for 1 round. The
temporary hit points last for 1 minute.
Soul Tyrant (Su) As a swift action, a warsoul can draw arcane
power from a willing hobgoblin within 30 feet who has 10
or fewer hit points. That hobgoblin is immediately slain,
leaving behind a desiccated corpse. The warsoul heals 1
hit point per Hit Die she has, and she receives a +2 bonus
to the save DC of the next spell she casts. She also gains
a +2 bonus on any attack roll required by the next spell
she casts. If that spell deals damage, the warsoul receives
a bonus on the damage roll equal to her Hit Dice.
Arcane Talent (Ex) A warsoul casts spells as a 9th-level
wizard.
Cult of Power (Ex) A warsoul is accompanied by 2d4 1stlevel
hobgoblin warriors who have sworn their lives to
her. These thralls willingly sacrifice themselves for their
master’s soul tyrant ability.










MMV, pg. 185
Arkamoi CR 4
Usually NE Medium monstrous humanoid
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Listen +1, Spot +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Undercommon
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
(+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 29 (4 HD); DR 5/slashing or piercing
SR 14
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +5
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee quarterstaff +4 (1d6)
Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d8/19–20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +4; Grp +4
Special Actions arcane mastermind
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 4th); strength from magic:
2nd (5/day)—Melf’s acid arrow (+6 ranged touch), mirror
image
1st (7/day)—burning hands (DC 13), disguise self, jump,
mage armor
0 (6/day)—daze (DC 12), detect magic, fl are (DC 12), light,
ray of frost (+6 ranged touch), read magic
Abilities Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 15
SA spells, strength from magic
SQ arcane talent
Feats Combat Casting, Toughness
Skills Concentration +9, Hide +9, Knowledge (arcana) +9,
Listen +1, Spellcraft +11, Spot +1
Advancement by character class; Favored Class sorcerer;
see text
Possessions quarterstaff, light crossbow with 20 bolts
Arcane Mastermind (Ex) When an arkamoi’s bonus to spell
save DCs from its strength from magic ability is +3 or
higher, its mind begins to work with lightning precision.
Once per round, as an immediate action, the arkamoi
can lend tactical advice to an ally. This effect grants a +2
morale bonus on that ally’s next check, attack roll, or
damage roll.
Strength from Magic (Ex) Each time an arkamoi casts an
arcane spell, magical feedback grants it a rush of power.
For each arcane spell cast, an arkamoi increases the save
DC of subsequent arcane spells it casts by 1. Additionally,
the arkamoi gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls for
subsequent spells, and gains a +2 deflection bonus to
AC. These benefits last for 1 minute starting in the round
during which the arkamoi finishes casting its first spell of
the encounter.
Bonuses stack each time an arkamoi casts an arcane
spell within that minute, to a maximum of a +5 bonus
to save DCs, a +10 bonus on damage rolls, and a +10
deflection bonus to AC. At the end of that minute, all
these bonuses disappear. They could begin accumulating
again if the arkemoi casts more spells.
Arcane Talent (Ex) An arkamoi casts spells as a 4th-level
sorcerer.




Wizard spells, Casted By Wizard class

Sorcerer spells, Casted By Sorcerer Class





Arcane Fusion

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 5,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two spells together in your mind and release them in a single burst of magic.
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.
If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion.
If either spell requires a material component, focus, XP cost, or other special cost, these must be used or paid as part of the casting of arcane fusion.










Wizards cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion
MY RAW HAS NO DEFENSE!

Can you address the fact that Wizards can cast Arcane Fusion via the Extra Spell feat?

[Crake]

Can you address the fact that Wizards can cast Arcane Fusion via the Extra Spell feat?

Please, when you quote his egregiously long posts, can you at least do the courtesy of snipping it? That's just painful to look at :smalleek:

[Clearminion]

Can you address the fact that Wizards can cast Arcane Fusion via the Extra Spell feat?
Extra spells errata. No, they cant get it via Extra Spells.
It's useless, they cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion or Arcane Fusionm requite sorcerer spells.

[nyjastul69]

Please, when you quote his egregiously long posts, can you at least do the courtesy of snipping it? That's just painful to look at :smalleek:

Point well taken. Mea Culpa.


Extra spells errata. No, they cant get it via Extra Spells.
It's useless, they cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion or Arcane Fusionm requite sorcerer spells.

There is no errata for Extra Spell. This spell was addressed by WotC's CS, but that is neither errata or RAW. Please cite your errata source.

Edited to change AF to ES.

[RedMage125]

I understand the distinction you're both trying to make: if what clearminion was trying to say was correct, it would be worded as "Spells you know as a sorcerer" not "Sorcerer spells you know" so actually, you're correct redmage, it's either anyone can use it to cast sorcerer only spells that they know, or anyone can use it to cast spells on the sorcerer list that they know. Either a) it's a much weaker spell than everyone thinks, or b) it's a very useful spell that anyone can utilize, as long as they know spells that are on the sorcerer spell list. Luckily for wizards, that's practically every spell they know :smalltongue:

Now, enough about this derailment, clearminion, if you want to continue arguing, go make another thread.
I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say. It seems to have escaped...certain other posters.

The answer is B).


Extra spells errata. No, they cant get it via Extra Spells.
It's useless, they cant cast Greater Arcane Fusion or Arcane Fusionm requite sorcerer spells.

Actually, Extra Spell explicitly says:You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
So...YES, Wizards can get it via Extra Spell.

Also, you COMPLETELY neglect that Wizards can cast GAF via Wish. Wish allows them to cast Cleric/Druid/Bard/Whatever spells if they so desire. So they can absolutely cast GAF. And since any spell that is a Sor/Wiz spell is BOTH a Sorcerer spell and a Wizard spell, that means they can GAF any two such spells on their list, but that spells such as Mage's Lucubration or Mnemonic Enhancer (which are explicitly Wizard only) would not be eligible for GAF.

[Ludic]

There actually is.

9. Wish



If you're at the point that you are going to use Wish to counterspell you might as well actually use Wish to be absolutely crippling. Like, "I want all of <targets> spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, wands, scrolls, staffs and rods to only be able to produce the same effects as Read Magic."

[Crake]

If you're at the point that you are going to use Wish to counterspell you might as well actually use Wish to be absolutely crippling. Like, "I want all of <targets> spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, wands, scrolls, staffs and rods to only be able to produce the same effects as Read Magic."

Except one is a guarenteed and standard usage of the wish spell, and the other is most definitely coming under the 'greater effect' clause of which, which immediately opens it up to DM interpretation.

Besides, when you're using something like divine defiance, you can't really do anything else BUT try to counterspell, so if the option is "counterspell their wish using wish" or, "do nothing", then it might be better to counterspell.

[Inevitability]

If you're at the point that you are going to use Wish to counterspell you might as well actually use Wish to be absolutely crippling. Like, "I want all of <targets> spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, wands, scrolls, staffs and rods to only be able to produce the same effects as Read Magic."

Of course: I was just pointing out there's Universal spells of all levels on the same list. I wasn't saying all those would make good counterspells.

[Ludic]

Except one is a guarenteed and standard usage of the wish spell, and the other is most definitely coming under the 'greater effect' clause of which, which immediately opens it up to DM interpretation.

Besides, when you're using something like divine defiance, you can't really do anything else BUT try to counterspell, so if the option is "counterspell their wish using wish" or, "do nothing", then it might be better to counterspell.

Or force a concentration check. There's quite a few spells that do enough damage that a successful concentration check is numerically impossible. Which fits the bill of standard usage of Wish. Replicate another spell. So once again, why burn Wish as a counterspell, when it can do much, much more.


The best interrupt is death.

[Crake]

Or force a concentration check. There's quite a few spells that do enough damage that a successful concentration check is numerically impossible. Which fits the bill of standard usage of Wish. Replicate another spell. So once again, why burn Wish as a counterspell, when it can do much, much more.


The best interrupt is death.

As I said, some of the ways to counterspell give you an immediate action that ONLY allows you to counterspell. If you haven't readied an action for whatever reason, and someone else is casting wish, and your ONLY option to stop it is to counterspell with your own wish, well, I guess it's up to you whether you'd do it or not.