Is there such a thing as a Blaster/Striker in one in 5e? [Archive]

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 03:38 PM

CursedRhubarb

2016-12-27, 04:15 PM

It can be done a few ways. There are builds of various mixes of classes, (many try to build around GWM+PAM) but I found a fun one I would love to try out.

Red (or Gold) Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer (fire) 10/ Undying Light Bladelock 5/ Valor Bard 5

Standard stat array gives starting stats of:
STR 14/Dex14/Con15/Int8/Wis10/Cha14

Feats Elemental Adept (Fire) and either Warcaster or Crossbow Expert. Other two ASI for Cha+2 and either STR or Dex +2. Lots of STR items so I'd boost Dex myself to improve saves.

You wind up with 11 cantrips, up to lvl 3 Bard and Warlock spells, and lvl 4 Sorcerer spells. Slots equal to a lvl 15 full caster plus 2 lvl 3 pact slots and Metamagic.

You can upcast spells or burn the slots to keep Metamagic options or fill lower slots to keep casting.

Between Sorcerer and lock skills you wind up with +2xCha to all fire spells and ignore resistance to fire.

Quickened Spell Metamagic allows for shananigans like two uses of booming blade or green-flame blade to simulate extra attack. You can also do things like Misty Step into melee then Quicken a BB/GFB or change/summon pact weapon and quicken BB/GFB to attack on the same turn.

So you can hit decently in melee and still have things like Fireball, Lightning bolt, and others to blast with.

(Heat Metal with +2xCha is just nasty, especially when upcast)

Sir cryosin

2016-12-27, 04:17 PM

Paladin lv2 sorcerer lv18 with twin and quicken add in SCAG cantrips and smite.

Ek fighter lv6 warlock lv14 you got hex, fire shield, going you Eldritch blast then bonus action weapon attack.

There are other builds but the thing is resource management.

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 04:49 PM

Some pretty cool ideas! Well I'm glad to see it's a real thing in 5e, but probably not as optimized as being something like a full Wizard and using the best spells or a Full Fighter and just hitting things with 4 attacks or something, right? Like you can optimize this niche but general other things will be stronger?

Ziegander

2016-12-27, 04:55 PM

I know it's not technically what you're looking for, but, technically, wouldn't the barest definition of a blaster/striker just be a spellcaster with blasty spells that deal significant, single-target damage and with solid movement and damage-avoidance tricks? Can't that be done with a straight Warlock or Sorcerer?

King539

2016-12-27, 04:56 PM

1 word: Sorcadin.

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 05:09 PM

1 word: Sorcadin.

Do Sorcadins make good blasters? I thought they were like tanks or something. They seem to be built around maximum utility not maximum blasting+striking.

I know it's not technically what you're looking for, but, technically, wouldn't the barest definition of a blaster/striker just be a spellcaster with blasty spells that deal significant, single-target damage and with solid movement and damage-avoidance tricks? Can't that be done with a straight Warlock or Sorcerer?

While you're right by the definitions of the roles, what I meant was a Gish Striker+Blaster, not a pure spellcaster Striker&Blaster. Otherwise Evocation Wizard is the best one right?

Rhynear

2016-12-27, 05:21 PM

My favourite build for this is Warlock 12/Fighter 6/Paladin 2
Start Variant Human with PAM and stat array:
16/8/14/8/10/16

Go Fiend Pact Bladelock and Champion

You get 3 attacks with Charisma and Strength on each hit, Spells such as fireball, Divine Smite and Action Surge, Critical hits 10% of the time and Heavy armour.

Take Warcaster if you're going Quarterstaff and Shield or +2 Constitution if your going with a 2 Handed Weapon and use your other ASI to pump Strength and Charisma, whichever you use most first.

And best of all, it all recharges on a short rest.

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 05:25 PM

DragonSorcererX

2016-12-27, 05:31 PM

War Cleric (with Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardian): You are everything at once (blaster, healer, striker, tanker), now imagine a party of four War Cleric Murderhobos that can heal and revive each other...

Gastronomie

2016-12-27, 07:31 PM

Do Sorcadins make good blasters? I thought they were like tanks or something. They seem to be built around maximum utility not maximum blasting+striking.It's very much possible to create a Sorcadin who goes for maximum blasting+striking. In fact, Sorcadins are like maximum blasting+striking by default. It's the only build which can go Divine Smite GFB + Fireball in the same turn, for one example.

However, "going maximum blasting+striking" does not mean "choosing all your options just for maximum blasting+striking".

See, taking only damage spells is a really bad idea, at least in terms of optimization. You could even call it meaningless in terms of damage potential. If you want a thematic character, that's all fine and set, but if your goal is to create a "damage-dealer" as a concept or optimized build, the damage spells you take should be kept to a minimum, because you only need one or two blasting spells to be good at the job.

The thing is that most blasting spells are terrible cost-performance wise. For instance, Scorching Ray does 6d6 (21) damage, but a level 5 Sorcadin's longsword GFB (assuming STR 16, CHA 16) does 2d8+3 damage to one target and 1d8+3 damage to another, accumulating to 3d8+6 (19.5) damage. Who'd think it's worth using up a level 2 spell slot to do extra 1.5 damage? Nobody will ever realize the difference. (Sure, Scorching Ray is a ranged attack, and it can be spread over multiple targets. Add that GFB does not always get to activate the fire leap effect... except, oh wait, even if the fire leap effect did not activate, using that spell slot for Divine Smite does +3d8 (13.5) damage, which in the end makes the damage of GFB much higher than that of Scorching Ray).

Spells like Fireball (and Cone of Cold, if you'd like) are special in how they can damage multiple enemies at once (incinerating a horde of goblins etc.) - this is something that cannot be done by any means of normal cantrips and weapon attacks, making these AoE spells unique and worth taking. But the stuff like Scorching Ray and Magic Missile are really, really, just not worth it.

Due to Quickened Spell, the action economy problem of Fireball etc. are diminished, and this Metamagic option can help your Sorcadin become a powerful Blaster by taking just one or two blasting spells. More than that is overkill.

And guess what: Quickened Spell is a Metamagic option all Sorcadins take, even if they're built to be utility casters. And Fireball is a spell that all Sorcadins take, again, even if they're built to be utility casters.

Meaning:

Sorcadins ... seem to be built around maximum utility not maximum blasting+striking.This is half-true and half-false. Sure, Sorcadins are built around maximum utility, but in the process of achieving maximum utility they also naturally achieve maximum blasting+striking.

tl;dr sorcadins are boss, and you should go try it out

The Shadowdove

2016-12-27, 07:35 PM

Just run circles around people as a sun soul monk. Kite them and whittle them down.

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 08:14 PM

It's very much possible to create a Sorcadin who goes for maximum blasting+striking. In fact, Sorcadins are like maximum blasting+striking by default. It's the only build which can go Divine Smite GFB + Fireball in the same turn, for one example.

However, "going maximum blasting+striking" does not mean "choosing all your options just for maximum blasting+striking".

See, taking only damage spells is a really bad idea, at least in terms of optimization. You could even call it meaningless in terms of damage potential. If you want a thematic character, that's all fine and set, but if your goal is to create a "damage-dealer" as a concept or optimized build, the damage spells you take should be kept to a minimum, because you only need one or two blasting spells to be good at the job.

The thing is that most blasting spells are terrible cost-performance wise. For instance, Scorching Ray does 6d6 (21) damage, but a level 5 Sorcadin's longsword GFB (assuming STR 16, CHA 16) does 2d8+3 damage to one target and 1d8+3 damage to another, accumulating to 3d8+6 (19.5) damage. Who'd think it's worth using up a level 2 spell slot to do extra 1.5 damage? Nobody will ever realize the difference. (Sure, Scorching Ray is a ranged attack, and it can be spread over multiple targets. Add that GFB does not always get to activate the fire leap effect... except, oh wait, even if the fire leap effect did not activate, using that spell slot for Divine Smite does +3d8 (13.5) damage, which in the end makes the damage of GFB much higher than that of Scorching Ray).

Spells like Fireball (and Cone of Cold, if you'd like) are special in how they can damage multiple enemies at once (incinerating a horde of goblins etc.) - this is something that cannot be done by any means of normal cantrips and weapon attacks, making these AoE spells unique and worth taking. But the stuff like Scorching Ray and Magic Missile are really, really, just not worth it.

Due to Quickened Spell, the action economy problem of Fireball etc. are diminished, and this Metamagic option can help your Sorcadin become a powerful Blaster by taking just one or two blasting spells. More than that is overkill.

And guess what: Quickened Spell is a Metamagic option all Sorcadins take, even if they're built to be utility casters. And Fireball is a spell that all Sorcadins take, again, even if they're built to be utility casters.

Meaning:
This is half-true and half-false. Sure, Sorcadins are built around maximum utility, but in the process of achieving maximum utility they also naturally achieve maximum blasting+striking.

tl;dr sorcadins are boss, and you should go try it out

I've actually read your entire guide to Sorcadin twice but it just seems really difficult to build the sort of character I have in mind, which to be honest is vague as it is. :(

To extrapolate: Not exactly vague, just apparently either not possible or not a good idea in 5e. The main edition of D&D I've been playing and love to death is 4e. They broke down roles like "Striker" "Controller" "Defender" "Leader" and so on.. Typically the builds I was drawn MOST to were "Strikers" and while there were utility spells and powers it was also baked into damage.

For instance: Tyranny of Flames deals damage then knocks an opponent prone and they must make a save or remain prone. So you get damage + utility (control) from 1 ability.

5e seems to break everything apart. You get JUST damage. You get JUST utility. You get JUST control. There's no fused or combined effects. There is no all damage "powers" which also bake in amounts of utility or control or whatever else. I'm still in a mindset of "My character is a damage dealer, so all my focus should be on dealing damage" and often you were even locked into a certain way to playing. Slayers just HAD two-handed weapons. I don't think sword and board Slayers existed.

So in my head I have this image of a guy with a giant sword that is attacking like a fighter - lots of basic attacks and dealing damage with his huge sword - but also getting a lot of benefit WHILE attacking, like knocking opponents prone or healing from dealing that damage or dragging the opponent with him or something else. In 5e you just...attack. You can't attack then cast a fireball unless you meta-magic. Fireball doesn't also knock all enemies prone and burn them for extra damage in consecutive rounds until they save. It just....deals the damage and that's it.

It just seems difficult for me to adjust from the way 4e combined things to 5e where you do 1 thing with this 1 action. So I don't really know how to build an optimized 5e great weapon user....and all the builds I've seen don't satisfy me because it sounds like you just attack with a glaive every. single. round. and that's all that happens. There's no powers to spruce up what happens when you attack...you just...attack. That's it.

So I keep going toward Gishes for "more to do" but then I get frustrated because it's EITHER do this for a special effect OR attack with your weapon. The SCAG Cantrips alleviate this somewhat, but barely. Maybe 5e just isn't actually the edition for me?

I just know I keep getting frustrated and blocked from concepts I've had in 4e.

I had an infernal pact hexblade drow revenant. Hexblades in 5e don't play even remotely similar to 5e, they don't have sword attacks + magical effects, they just power attack with a polearm every turn and sometimes cast hex. Wow. Fun :(

There is no Vryloka or Blackguard, so my Vryloka Blackguard can't exist.

There's no way to build a "Blood Mage" like Vladimir from LoL (who my character Angelus il-Vec was based on) who was just a warlock with a lot of reflavored abilities. But nothing gives the effect of dealing damage + healing you for that damage done, at least not early on.

Even if these builds are possible they don't feel like the character until level 8, 9, 12, 15.... Whereas they worked from level 1 in 4e.

So I just can't seem to really "build my playstyle" yet in 5e which keeps creating a dissonance in me where i keep coming back to it repeatedly at different angles and I'm dissatisfied every time.

Nothing about being a damage dealer screams "has a shield" in my mind - maybe it's because in 99.9% of video games the guy with the shield is a tank, not a damage dealer so its' warping my perception but....shields just don't speak to me unless I'm trying to tank up. None of my 4e characters were Defenders though...

Gastronomie

2016-12-27, 08:46 PM

I haven't played 4e so I cannot say for sure, but based on what you're saying, I believe a Fighter (Battle Master)/Sorcerer will suit you best. Battle Masters are the best bet if you want your melee attacks to have extra benefits.

JAL_1138

2016-12-27, 09:33 PM

Ravinsild

2016-12-27, 10:12 PM

You might want to look into more Paladin levels. The Smite spells have damage+rider effects.

Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 or Paladin 6/ Lore Bard 14 might do the job. Most of the Smite spells (not Divine Smite, the actual Smite spells with a bonus-action casting time) carry a rider--Thunderous Smite has push+knockdown, Searing Smite does ongoing fire damage, Wrathful Smite can cause Frightened, Blinding Smite...er...blinds things...they aren't necessarily optimal for a Sorcadin or Palabard, but they do the melee+rider thing.

If you go for Lore, you get fewer blasty spells, but at character level 12 (Lore Bard 6) you can use one of your Magical Secrets choices to also yoink a good 5th-level AoE off the Paladin list called Destructive Wave, which deals Radiant (or Necrotic) and Thunder damage in a 30-foot radius from you and has a knockdown effect. Same damage as a level-3 Fireball, with no friendly fire potential and a knockdown. It doesn't scale up and it's a higher slot to use, but it's still very good.

Okay so lets scrap the idea of a 4e type striker. What does a 5e type optimized striker look like? Just PAM+GWM? Is it that simple? What about an optimized Sorcadin for...lets say buffing yourself, debuffing your enemy for maximum damage? Would you just pick all the light blue options on that Sorcadin guide of Astronomies? Cherry pick any debuff or buff spells from the list and call it a day? Even then the GWM isn't the best way to build one apparently.

maxwell_wolfen

2016-12-27, 10:22 PM

uhm...Sorlock? just fly quicken EB's and alpha strike. you can reach around 8 EB's a round for much more damage than any fighter (each EB has four at 15 level or so)

Crusher

2016-12-27, 11:52 PM

Okay so lets scrap the idea of a 4e type striker. What does a 5e type optimized striker look like? Just PAM+GWM? Is it that simple? What about an optimized Sorcadin for...lets say buffing yourself, debuffing your enemy for maximum damage? Would you just pick all the light blue options on that Sorcadin guide of Astronomies? Cherry pick any debuff or buff spells from the list and call it a day? Even then the GWM isn't the best way to build one apparently.

At first I thought the issue was terminology, in that maybe both sides were talking past each other because of how 4e and 5e described game mechanics. But then I read a bit and realized the issue is a disconnect between what you say you're looking for and what you're actually looking for.

You mention that you want an optimized Striker/Blaster. So people suggested various optimized 5e strikers with casting ability which you found unsatisfying because they didn't match up in various ways with the Drow Infernal Hexblade you'd played and really enjoyed. The problem is that you weren't playing a 4e optimized Striker. A Battlefield Archer Ranger is an example of an optimized 4e Striker. You were playing a broadly useful jack-of-all-trades character who happened to be a Striker.

A Drow Infernal Hexblade is a Striker with (compared to other Strikers) mediocre dps and paltry burst but makes up for it with extra tankiness and considerable control abilities. Its not a bad character at all, its just going to play really differently than a 5e optimized Striker/Blaster Sorcadin who basically exist to line up and execute their burst dps (yes, yes, I'm oversimplying. I'm making a point). I can understand why you were unenthused about it.

I do understand that you're used to Hexblades having lots of abilities that are "Damage plus" abilities. Damage + knockdown, Damage + reposition, Damage + on-going damage, etc. 5e does unfortunately have less of that than 4e so that's going to be disappointing.

However, the gap isn't as bad as it appears because 5e has its own tricks and you can come up with some interesting stuff once you see how abilities interact. If your interest is in versatility, consider the Battlemaster Fighter/Arcane Trickster rogue with Shield Mastery and Protection Fighting Style. Yes, it uses a shield but its a Striker/Defender/Controller not unlike your Hexblade.

By level 2 (F1/R1) you can Shield Bash your opponent (attempting to either knock them prone or push them back 10' which you're better at because of Expertise from Rogue), then if you knock them prone you (and everyone else in melee) can attack with advantage (huge accuracy bonus) allowing you to do extra Sneak Attack damage. Plus, once/turn when an ally within 5' of you is attacked, you can impose disadvantage on the attack (huge accuracy penalty). And that's just the stuff you can do *every turn*.

On top of that you have abilities that are limited per Short Rest (which is a 1-2 hour rest, vaguely comparable to Encounter Abilities). You gain more as you level up, but by level 4 (F3/R1) you list includes: healing yourself, giving yourself a bonus turn, and using Combat Maneuvers (attempt to trip your opponent in case the Shield Bash fails, attempt to disarm your opponent, frighten them, give allies an extra turn, etc. Its a long list though you can only pick a few). Then at level 6 you start being able to cast some low levels spells on top of all that.

Or, maybe just take 1 level in Rogue and go Infernal Warlock instead. You'll almost immediately get a decent ranged attack plus better spellcasting than from the Arcane Trickster (btw, casting Hex on someone means you inflict extra damage AND it allows you to penalize them on a stat-check. Pick STR or DEX, whichever they're better at, and shield bashing gets much easier) and you automatically gain temporary hit points whenever you kill something. But you'll do less dps with fewer rogue levels because your Sneak Attack won't improve.

It is a long way from an optimized 5e Striker/Blaster, but you might find it interesting. It can do one heck of a lot of stuff and might be able to use its tricks more *often* than a Hexblade.

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 12:20 AM

At first I thought the issue was terminology, in that maybe both sides were talking past each other because of how 4e and 5e described game mechanics. But then I read a bit and realized the issue is a disconnect between what you say you're looking for and what you're actually looking for.

You mention that you want an optimized Striker/Blaster. So people suggested various optimized 5e strikers with casting ability which you found unsatisfying because they didn't match up in various ways with the Drow Infernal Hexblade you'd played and really enjoyed. The problem is that you weren't playing a 4e optimized Striker. A Battlefield Archer Ranger is an example of an optimized 4e Striker. You were playing a broadly useful jack-of-all-trades character who happened to be a Striker.

A Drow Infernal Hexblade is a Striker with (compared to other Strikers) mediocre dps and paltry burst but makes up for it with extra tankiness and considerable control abilities. Its not a bad character at all, its just going to play really differently than a 5e optimized Striker/Blaster Sorcadin who basically exist to line up and execute their burst dps (yes, yes, I'm oversimplying. I'm making a point). I can understand why you were unenthused about it.

I do understand that you're used to Hexblades having lots of abilities that are "Damage plus" abilities. Damage + knockdown, Damage + reposition, Damage + on-going damage, etc. 5e does unfortunately have less of that than 4e so that's going to be disappointing.

However, the gap isn't as bad as it appears because 5e has its own tricks and you can come up with some interesting stuff once you see how abilities interact. If your interest is in versatility, consider the Battlemaster Fighter/Arcane Trickster rogue with Shield Mastery and Protection Fighting Style. Yes, it uses a shield but its a Striker/Defender/Controller not unlike your Hexblade.

By level 2 (F1/R1) you can Shield Bash your opponent (attempting to either knock them prone or push them back 10' which you're better at because of Expertise from Rogue), then if you knock them prone you (and everyone else in melee) can attack with advantage (huge accuracy bonus) allowing you to do extra Sneak Attack damage. Plus, once/turn when an ally within 5' of you is attacked, you can impose disadvantage on the attack (huge accuracy penalty). And that's just the stuff you can do *every turn*.

On top of that you have abilities that are limited per Short Rest (which is a 1-2 hour rest, vaguely comparable to Encounter Abilities). You gain more as you level up, but by level 4 (F3/R1) you list includes: healing yourself, giving yourself a bonus turn, and using Combat Maneuvers (attempt to trip your opponent in case the Shield Bash fails, attempt to disarm your opponent, frighten them, give allies an extra turn, etc. Its a long list though you can only pick a few). Then at level 6 you start being able to cast some low levels spells on top of all that.

Or, maybe just take 1 level in Rogue and go Infernal Warlock instead. You'll almost immediately get a decent ranged attack plus better spellcasting than from the Arcane Trickster (btw, casting Hex on someone means you inflict extra damage AND it allows you to penalize them on a stat-check. Pick STR or DEX, whichever they're better at, and shield bashing gets much easier) and you automatically gain temporary hit points whenever you kill something. But you'll do less dps with fewer rogue levels because your Sneak Attack won't improve.

It is a long way from an optimized 5e Striker/Blaster, but you might find it interesting. It can do one heck of a lot of stuff and might be able to use its tricks more *often* than a Hexblade.

It is an accurate picture you paint - being a jack of all trades over a super highly optimized striker, however more than that it's the fact that I was dealing damage while I was making those effects happen. Often in 5e it feels like, unless you're a Battle Master - it's either/or. Either you are controlling OR you're damaging.

I guess in 5e I'd rather just play the most optimized striker or gish in general.

JAL_1138

2016-12-28, 01:35 AM

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 09:29 AM

What was so wrong with the Smite spells to cause you to drop the 4e striker concept so quickly? For example, Thunderous Smite--cast it as a bonus action, then hit with a melee attack (which could include Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade, and which you could also spend a Divine Smite on if you're really nova-ing) for 2d6 extra damage over your weapon damage, plus a save vs 10ft push and prone condition. They all key off melee weapon attacks the same way. Except Branding Smite, which can also work off ranged weapon attacks. They literally do the damage-plus-control thing you were saying you wanted.

More generally, don't get too hung up on "the most optimized." You don't particularly need it in 5e. A little less average damage than the maximum possible isn't the death knell of a build.

Well I like the idea of it, I just wasn't sure what it would look like. Would it be a pure Paladin? A Sorcadin? Great Weapon? Sword and Shield? I know Paladins are great for doing maximum damage in one go but how is their average DPR? Oath of Vengeance? Devotion? Conquest from the UA? Maybe even the Treachery for free haste?

6/14 Sorcadin? Or just 20 Paladin?

Basically I'm just not even sure what exactly a 5e "in general" optimized striker is so I don't even know how to build an optimized Paladin striker/Gish Sorcadin.

If it can work though and be a super damage character who also brings lots of utility like buffs for self or team mates and heals and debuffs and battlefield control then that's even better the "jack of all trades" thing.

In the Sorcadin guide do I choose to be good at all of them option or excellent at some of them option?

N810

2016-12-28, 09:44 AM

Sounding a bit like a Bard... :elan:

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 10:41 AM

Sounding a bit like a Bard... :elan:

You'd think so, right? I'm playing a Valor Bard in a 3 player campaign so we each have 2 characters thus 6 characters total (2 per player) and it really seems like I either a) attack with my longbow with no riders or special effects or b) cast a spell.

It feels like a split identity - you either fully commit to attacking or fully commit to casting but you can never do both simultaneously UNLESS you cast Healing Word or Bardic Inspiration after attacking with your bow. So it's not quite the....FFXIV style bard I hoped it was.

Rhynear

2016-12-28, 10:50 AM

What would that look like as a real character though? A level 8 character running a campaign against Frost Giants or something like that? Does it work at all levels or only once you hit level 20?

You should keep close to or surpass a GWM or GWM and PAM Fighter.

Assuming a to hit of 8 for the Gish and Champion for all of the Fighter Archetypes when it doesn't use GWM the damage values should be:

GWM Fighter
GWM PAM Fighter
Gish with Halberd

Level 1
7.88
9.65
9.65

Level 2
7.88
9.65
15.06

Level 3
8.30
10.11
15.06

Level 4
9.76
13.29
15.06

Level 5
17.29
20.67
16.15

Level 6
22.66
24.60
24.89

Level 7
22.66
24.60
24.89

Level 8
22.66
28.83
24.89

Level 9
20.32
25.80
25.93

Level 10
20.32
25.80
25.93

Level 11
30.48
34.95
25.93

Level 12
30.48
34.95
25.93

Level 13
26.99
30.86
30.13

Level 14
26.99
30.86
30.13

Level 15
26.99
30.86
30.13

Level 16
26.99
30.86
31.45

Level 17
26.99
30.86
34.16

Level 18
26.99
30.86
35.21

Level 19
26.99
30.86
35.21

Level 20
35.98
38.94
36.26

I would start with 1 level of Fighter, before taking 12 levels of Warlock, a second level of Fighter two levels of Paladin and finish of with Fighter. Take your second Fighter level earlier if you want to cast and attack in the same round once per short rest or more nova, although it delays your spellcasting progression and at will damage.
You should end with
Warlock 12/Fighter 6/Paladin 2

Start with stats of:
15/8/14/8/10/15
and go Variant Human to pick up PAM at level 1
Then take: GWM at Warlock 4
+2 Strength at Warlock 8
+2 Strength at Warlock 12
+2 Charisma at Fighter 4
+2 Charisma at Fighter 6

If you want more spell power then increase Charisma earlier.

Take Fiend Patron for survivability, and Blade pact for damage.
Go Champion for at will damage, or Battlemaster for battlefield control and even more nova, or Eldritch Knight for more Tankiness and more spell slots.

Crusher

2016-12-28, 11:20 AM

Well I like the idea of it, I just wasn't sure what it would look like. Would it be a pure Paladin? A Sorcadin? Great Weapon? Sword and Shield? I know Paladins are great for doing maximum damage in one go but how is their average DPR? Oath of Vengeance? Devotion? Conquest from the UA? Maybe even the Treachery for free haste?

It could be any of those things, depending on what you want. There's a lot of nuance in each of those options. The Great Weapon paladin will do more damage than the sword and board one, but it'll be less tanky and arguably less utility-laden (especially if you're deciding between Shield Mastery and Great Weapon Mastery for feats).

For level 20 paladin vs 6/14 Sorcadin there are plusses and minuses both ways. The pure paladin will do more sustained damage (Improved Smite is an extra 1d8 damage on every attack and while you get fewer spell slots than the Sorcadin the difference isn't huge) and is tankier (28 more hp at level 20) and can do more *melee* burst. A decent "burst" round of attack could be two swings, with Banishing Smite on one and a level 4 Smite on both. Assuming Great Weapon Fighting and a 20 STR, you're looking at 5d10 + 12d8 + 4d6 + 30 if both swings hit plus if its an extra planar monster and the damage knocks it under 50 hp its banished to its home plane with no save for a bit. Plus you get substantial healing abilities (yourself as well as others) as well as lots of utility stuff depending on type of paladin (too lengthy to get into here).

On the other hand, the 6/14 is a serious caster and can do tricks like cast Prismatic Spray as a bonus action (random effects ranging from turning the target to stone to banishing it to another plane to doing 10d6 of various types of damage or multiple effects) then whacking it twice with your great sword (with a pair of level 4 Smites) for 10d8 + 4d6 + 30 damage (assuming Great Weapon Fighting and a 20 STR) all in the same round.

Also you can do lots of interesting battlefield control stuff, like take Polearm Mastery and War Caster. Once per round (during the *monster's turn*) when an enemy either moves to being within 10' of you or is already within 10' and tries to move AWAY from you, you can pop them with Distant Booming Blade, doing 1d10+3d8+5 plus another 4d8 the next time it voluntarily moves. Or, if something tries to move past you to beat on the squishy wizard, instead of doing a conventional opportunity attack, you could instead cast Telekinesis as a reaction and drag the monster up to 30' (straight up is a viable option if there's no cliff side or deep well nearby to drop them off/into). Or, on your turn, cast a Quickened Wall of Fire in front of you and then use Lightning Lure to drag the baddie away from the Wizard, damage them, and plop them into the fire wall.

The point being that there are a lot of options in a lot of different directions.

Crusher

2016-12-28, 11:36 AM

You'd think so, right? I'm playing a Valor Bard in a 3 player campaign so we each have 2 characters thus 6 characters total (2 per player) and it really seems like I either a) attack with my longbow with no riders or special effects or b) cast a spell.

It feels like a split identity - you either fully commit to attacking or fully commit to casting but you can never do both simultaneously UNLESS you cast Healing Word or Bardic Inspiration after attacking with your bow. So it's not quite the....FFXIV style bard I hoped it was.

Hmm. You know, another consideration is the Battlemaster/Rogue I mentioned above. Once you hit level 4, all your tricks (except the Shield Bash) work with a *bow* as well. If you take Sharpshooter instead of Shield Mastery, you can Disarm or Trip your opponent, or give your allies an extra attack, from 600' away.

Edit - Oh, wait, I know. You want a Way of the Four Elements Monk. Stunning Strike, Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air. Done.

JAL_1138

2016-12-28, 11:49 AM

It could be any of those things, depending on what you want. There's a lot of nuance in each of those options. The Great Weapon paladin will do more damage than the sword and board one, but it'll be less tanky and arguably less utility-laden (especially if you're deciding between Shield Mastery and Great Weapon Mastery for feats).

For level 20 paladin vs 6/14 Sorcadin there are plusses and minuses both ways. The pure paladin will do more sustained damage (Improved Smite is an extra 1d8 damage on every attack and while you get fewer spell slots than the Sorcadin the difference isn't huge) and is tankier (28 more hp at level 20) and can do more *melee* burst. A decent "burst" round of attack could be two swings, with Banishing Smite on one and a level 4 Smite on both. Assuming Great Weapon Fighting and a 20 STR, you're looking at 5d10 + 12d8 + 4d6 + 30 (say 125-130) if both swings hit plus if its an extra planar monster and the damage knocks it under 50 hp its banished to its home plane with no save for a bit. Plus you get substantial healing abilities (yourself as well as others) as well as lots of utility stuff depending on type of paladin (too lengthy to get into here).

On the other hand, the 6/14 is a serious caster and can do tricks like cast Prismatic Spray as a bonus action (random effects ranging from turning the target to stone to banishing it to another plane to doing 10d6 of various types of damage or multiple effects) then whacking it twice with your great sword (with a pair of level 4 Smites) for 10d8 + 4d6 + 30 damage (assuming Great Weapon Fighting and a 20 STR) all in the same round.

Also you can do lots of interesting battlefield control stuff, like take Polearm Mastery and War Caster. Once per turn when an enemy either moves to being within 10' of you or is already within 10' and tries to move AWAY from you, you can pop them with Distant Booming Blade, doing 1d10+3d8+5 plus another 4d8 the next time it voluntarily moves. Or, if something tries to move past you to beat on the squishy wizard, instead of doing a conventional opportunity attack, you could instead cast Telekinesis as a reaction and drag the monster up to 30' (straight up is a viable option if there's no cliff or long stairwell nearby). Or, on your turn, cast a Quickened Wall of Fire in front of you and then use Lightning Lure to drag the baddie away from the Wizard, damage them, and plop them into the fire wall.

The point being that there are a lot of options in a lot of different directions.

This, pretty much. The reason OP doesn't know "what an optimized gish looks like in 5e," or even "an optimized Sorcadin," is because there isn't a single answer to that. There's more like a dozen different answers, depending on what you're optimizing for and how you're getting there, and what trade-offs you're making along the way. Better sustained damage vs better utility, stronger nova vs weaker individual hits but more of them, better blasting vs better control vs better buffs vs better tanking, and whatnot. It's more like a spectrum rather than a single thing.

EDIT:

Oh, wait, I know. You want a Way of the Four Elements Monk. Stunning Strike, Water Whip, Fist of Unbroken Air. Done.

...actually, yeah. Not a bad choice, and often overlooked in gish discussions. I'll second this recommendation.

Four Elements Monk has some downsides, in that it can feel starved for ki compared to the other subclasses, and took a small nerf in the errata...but despite the forum complaints over that it still works quite well, and the higher-cost spells can be quite useful if applied judiciously. Monk DPR isn't great, but they're not a "DPR class" and it's enough when paired with their great mobility, control effects, and how hard they are to kill.

mgshamster

2016-12-28, 11:54 AM

Four Elements Monk is perfect for this. At high levels you can throw more fireballs than nearly any other class, and you can still have a full attack that's three attacks (extra attack + TWF).

And due to the way ki works, you can decrease your magic and increase your martial prowess as you like, focusing 100% on martial some days and 100% on magic other days. Even when you focus 100% on magic, you're still a capable martial character.

Plus, the more short rests you take, the better you become.

Citan

2016-12-28, 12:20 PM

I know there are many definitions of gish such as: Uses non-damage spells purely to enhance fighting ability such as Shield for defense to live longer, Haste to attack more, Mirror Image to live longer and other combinations for basically just buffing yourself to be the best possible fighter. Then there's the opposite spectrum of being a 90% caster who sometimes attacks with a melee weapon or maybe a full caster that focuses on the SCAG Cantrips for their source of melee damage. There's many steps in between those two extremes....

Is there such a thing as a Blaster and a Striker simultaneously? Is it possible to both have heavy melee damage AND big damage spells simultaneously? Fireball + Two Weapon Attacks or other such combinations?

In 4e it was possible for things like Hexblades and Swordmages to both deal weapon damage AND get a spell effect because it was worded similarly to the SCAG cantrips of 1 [W] + Spell Effect Here...

How does 5e handle such character concepts or does it even exist? All the offensive magic of a blaster/evocation based wizard (or Sorcerer) + all the heavy hard hitting melee attacks of a Fighter (Or Barbarian).

Due to action economy it doesn't seem possible, at least not regularly, but just for a fun thought experiment I thought I might as the question anyway. I know about things like the Bladelock which dip Fighter 1/Warlock 19 but they typically use 1 or 2 spells like Hex and the rest boost defense and are more similar to the "All Fighter + Some Utility Spells for better Fighter Fighting" definition than "First I hit you with my sword....then I hit you with my very damaging spell" that I'm looking into.

Perhaps the Favored Soul Sorcerer UA is the closest thing with quickened magic and the built in Extra Attack? Anything official/printed in books? Just thought I'd ask for fun :)
Hi again ;)

Honestly, it depends.
If you want "nova" capabilities, then Sorcerer / Paladin does the trick quite neatly.

If you want sustained damage but relying on magic, then your only true choice is the "Pyromancer" we discussed at length in another topic.
(Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Undying Light Warlock 2 / whatever else, maybe Evocation Wizard) to get double +CHA on Green Flame Blade, and get powerful blasting with Eldricht Blast, topped by Hex either case.

If you want something in between, then a multiclass Eldricht Knight 12 / Lore Bard 8 may fit the bill, Lore Bard to sustain Elemental Weapon applied on all your weapon attacks.
Note that Paladin 11 / Sorcerer 9 works as well, you trade one less attack for built-in Elemental Weapon and slot conversion so you could probably last a whole day as well.
Or a Four Elements Monk, although you have no "blasting" except the push effect per se so you would need to grab Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper for a cantrip. You do get some nice AOE spells though, even more sustainable than a Warlock because you can choose the spell level.

What I don't like in both first (especially in the Sorcadin) is that you invest heavy resources just to enable your concept. Monk has still many nice tricks when out of Ki. ;)

You could also work Arcane Trickster 9 / Ranger 11 (or other split, depending on whether you are interested in Volley or not), so you get powerful martial and elemental arrows spells to give a sense of "blasting". It's still technically shooting arrows though. But you mix striking features (Sneak Attack) and more versatile features (Extra Attack, Volley, spells) to create a flexible build.

By the way, on the "nova side", you could also make a funny Rogue 2 / Sorcerer 18 build with Extended Metamagic, so you start concentrating on an Extended Delayed Blast Fireball then hide, popping up at the end. This is a pretty difficult trick to achieve because, well, it's a glowing bead so not exactly difficult to notice. But I'm sure some people more clever than me may find ways to conceal the glowing bead.
Or, more difficult, you put the glowing in your hiding place, then ask a properly skilled friend (a Rogue for example, preferably with Shield Master or any other possible buff to DEX saving throw) to pick it up and throw in the end.
In short, difficult trick to pull off but very satisfying should you succeed: 12d6+20d6 for a nice average ~115 AOE damage.
Food for thought for those who like theorycraft challenges (full disclaimer: I never had the adequate character to pull this, nor a situation where the number of enemies affected would be worth the pain and risks involved). XD

maxwell_wolfen

2016-12-28, 01:16 PM

Hi again ;)

Honestly, it depends.
If you want "nova" capabilities, then Sorcerer / Paladin does the trick quite neatly.

If you want sustained damage but relying on magic, then your only true choice is the "Pyromancer" we discussed at length in another topic.
(Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Undying Light Warlock 2 / whatever else, maybe Evocation Wizard) to get double +CHA on Green Flame Blade, and get powerful blasting with Eldricht Blast, topped by Hex either case.

If you want something in between, then a multiclass Eldricht Knight 12 / Lore Bard 8 may fit the bill, Lore Bard to sustain Elemental Weapon applied on all your weapon attacks.
Note that Paladin 11 / Sorcerer 9 works as well, you trade one less attack for built-in Elemental Weapon and slot conversion so you could probably last a whole day as well.
Or a Four Elements Monk, although you have no "blasting" except the push effect per se so you would need to grab Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper for a cantrip. You do get some nice AOE spells though, even more sustainable than a Warlock because you can choose the spell level.

What I don't like in both first (especially in the Sorcadin) is that you invest heavy resources just to enable your concept. Monk has still many nice tricks when out of Ki. ;)

You could also work Arcane Trickster 9 / Ranger 11 (or other split, depending on whether you are interested in Volley or not), so you get powerful martial and elemental arrows spells to give a sense of "blasting". It's still technically shooting arrows though. But you mix striking features (Sneak Attack) and more versatile features (Extra Attack, Volley, spells) to create a flexible build.

By the way, on the "nova side", you could also make a funny Rogue 2 / Sorcerer 18 build with Extended Metamagic, so you start concentrating on an Extended Delayed Blast Fireball then hide, popping up at the end. This is a pretty difficult trick to achieve because, well, it's a glowing bead so not exactly difficult to notice. But I'm sure some people more clever than me may find ways to conceal the glowing bead.
Or, more difficult, you put the glowing in your hiding place, then ask a properly skilled friend (a Rogue for example, preferably with Shield Master or any other possible buff to DEX saving throw) to pick it up and throw in the end.
In short, difficult trick to pull off but very satisfying should you succeed: 12d6+20d6 for a nice average ~115 AOE damage.
Food for thought for those who like theorycraft challenges (full disclaimer: I never had the adequate character to pull this, nor a situation where the number of enemies affected would be worth the pain and risks involved). XD

Citan. The pyromancer build looks quite neat. Do you have a link to that discussion? also can we achieve the same thing with 2 levels warlock (undying light) and all the rest to sorcerer?

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 03:40 PM

This, pretty much. The reason OP doesn't know "what an optimized gish looks like in 5e," or even "an optimized Sorcadin," is because there isn't a single answer to that. There's more like a dozen different answers, depending on what you're optimizing for and how you're getting there, and what trade-offs you're making along the way. Better sustained damage vs better utility, stronger nova vs weaker individual hits but more of them, better blasting vs better control vs better buffs vs better tanking, and whatnot. It's more like a spectrum rather than a single thing.

Bold Emphasis mine: You make a strong point. Everything in 4e was very....categorized. Much like in a video game, especially an MMO, you had a...specialization. You were THIS one thing and you were very GOOD at this one thing and often optimizing turned into something like: Maximum possible damage dealer would be the Archer Ranger - but a Fiend Hexblade optimized would do the most damage the class could muster (less than other most optimized DPR builds) in addition to bringing all the riders/control/effects with it. So your specialization was maximum damage (for that class) plus all the "best" powers for your particular specialization which brought with it X amount of awesome utility/buffs/debuffs/control/damage/other effects.

In 5e the most optimized thing seems to be the OPPOSITE of 4e specialization design - the BEST character is the one that has all the answers to a variety of situations, which is why spells like Polymorph, Sleep, Wish, True Polymorph, Suggestion and so forth are gold or sky blue. You can do virtually anything, have any answer - whereas specialized in "Hitting Things Really Hard" seems like the least optimized. You're bad at anything non-combat and during an encounter all you can do is massive melee damage. If any variable outside of standing right in front of you comes up you are done for. If a Beholder flies out of range and petrifies your party you are not optimized to cure them from stone form and hit him from range. You lose.

So I'm still trying to find my feet and switch my mental gears away from "My character is a specialist in this one very specific thing" to "Optimizing my character means having a very broad focus and being good at everything" which feels counter-intuitive to me but actually makes a lot of sense. I suppose the most optimized character is that which has an answer for every situation - Noble Court RP Encounters, Dungeon Crawling Puzzle Encounters, Mighty Foes who can 1 shot you Encounters, Crossing Giant Chasms Encounters, Hordes of Enemies In The Sky Encounters and with Suggestion, Good Skills, Banish or Wish or Polymorph, Fly and Fireball in the Sky you have an answer to all of this and more.

So now...I don't know what to do :P I just like a guy who has a big sword (Fury Warrior from WoW, Dark Knight/Warrior from FFXIV, Gladiator from GW2, Two-handed Weapon in Elder Scrolls Online or Skyrim) and can cast cool magic (Retribution Paladin or Death Knight from WoW, Ninja from FFXIV (ninjitsu and daggers), Pretty much any combo of weapons in GW2, Dragon Magic from DK or Templar Magic from a Templar or Melee Stamina Sorc in ESO etc...)

Although that seems to be a poorly optimized choice in 5e where the bigger your bag of tricks the better off you are. If your only trick is TONZ OF DAMAGE like Tryndamere then you're in for a bad time I guess :/

Edit: That said the Sorcadin built around a Greatsword and smiting and casting good utility spells like Suggestion, Fly, Haste, Enlarge Person, and other "buffs" plus Hold Person/Monster, Fear and so on for "Debuffs" plus the few critical blaster spells like Fireball, Lightning Bolt and the gold rated ones sounds good.

The Battlemaster/Rogue Bow Man sounds like a better buffer battle-bard than the Valor Bard (Combat Maneuvers + Spells) I even wonder if like like Eldritch Knight (Archery) + Lore Bard or something might make for a swag "Buff/Debuffer + Fighter" style - like lowering enemy magic resist (saves) and increasing allies damage and healing when needed, or speed buffs, conjuring volleys of arrows for AoE (Magical Secrets Stolen from Ranger) and so forth.

I'm beginning to like the idea of Buffer/Debuffer + Choice Best Damage Spells mixed with Martial Prowess (Greatsword or Longbow) as a character so they're very versatile.

Edit: I like damage dealers FIRST but the idea of also having the option of buffing myself (or others) like an Enhancement Shaman. Actually that's exactly what I mean. They empower their weapons with magic, deal Storm Strike which hits with Lightning Magic + Weapon, throw Lava Lashes, summon Elementals, and basically are the perfect gish. Bloodlust is a huge party buff, they used to have totems which would raise the parties armor, magic resist, healing over time and other utility/buffs, they have access to off-healing, they have stuff like Windfury (wind magic) for "nova" plus big cooldowns like Ascendance and Spirit Wolves. They're like the perfect video game Gish. It's like a dual-wielding fighter + evocation wizard or druid or maybe just a super offensive cleric?

Unholy Death Knights are another - death coil from range or clawing shadows dealing ranged shadow damage, Death and Decay, Death Grip, they used to have Icy Touch for a ranged ice spells plus all their strikes, plus summoning undead minions. They're like a Necromancer + Fighter.

So on and so forth. I like the Sword AND Sorcery type characters ;)

Citan

2016-12-28, 03:51 PM

Citan. The pyromancer build looks quite neat. Do you have a link to that discussion? also can we achieve the same thing with 2 levels warlock (undying light) and all the rest to sorcerer?
In order...
1. Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507645-Hexblade-SpellBlade-Gish-Blaster-Striker-possible&highlight=pyromancer) (whole discussion is interesting but if you just want key points, post 60 has an example build and 80 for some numbers).
1bis: in bonus, a link towards my own homebrew Pyromancer, if you are willing to take the time to read and feedback ;)

2. Sure, you can totally make a Undying Light Warlock 2 / Draconic Sorcerer 18 and go away with it, since what you are the most interested in, you get as soon as Warlock 1 and Sorcerer 6.
People tend to add a third class into the mix though to get more general resilience and some martial features to go with the cantrip spamming: Rogue, Fighter, Paladin are the common ones.
- Swashbuckler Rogue 2-5 gives you great defensive features (Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action) and a bit more damage.
- Fighter 3 provides Fighting Style, Action Surge (2 spells in a turn), and (usually) Battlemaster. Higher level features are wasted (Extra Attack would be strictly inferior throughout, War Magic will be rarely useful).
- Paladin 6 brings fighting style, healing and buff spells, +CHA to all saves.

As just Warlock / Draconic, you'll want obviously to max DEX, but you may have to blow slots on Shield / Mirror Image / other regularly because a low hit die means you can't affort losing HP too much. With that said, you could also compensate with feats: Defensive Duelist is lesser than Shield, but no-cost, Mobile feat provides free disengage against the enemy you hit, Inspiring Leader provides a big pool of THP, Tough, Dual Wielder, Moderately Armored (shield) or Durable can also provide a small but permanent boost to defense.

So you can play this as a full spellcaster, if that was the implicit question. ;) You will just have to be more attentive to your choices and much more careful in your tactics.

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 03:53 PM

In order...
1. Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507645-Hexblade-SpellBlade-Gish-Blaster-Striker-possible&highlight=pyromancer) (whole discussion is interesting but if you just want key points, post 60 has an example build and 80 for some numbers).
1bis: in bonus, a link towards my own homebrew Pyromancer, if you are willing to take the time to read and feedback ;)

2. Sure, you can totally make a Undying Light Warlock 2 / Draconic Sorcerer 18 and go away with it, since what you are the most interested in, you get as soon as Warlock 1 and Sorcerer 6.
People tend to add a third class into the mix though to get more general resilience and some martial features to go with the cantrip spamming: Rogue, Fighter, Paladin are the common ones.
- Swashbuckler Rogue 2-5 gives you great defensive features (Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action) and a bit more damage.
- Fighter 3 provides Fighting Style, Action Surge (2 spells in a turn), and (usually) Battlemaster. Higher level features are wasted (Extra Attack would be strictly inferior throughout, War Magic will be rarely useful).
- Paladin 6 brings fighting style, healing and buff spells, +CHA to all saves.

As just Warlock / Draconic, you'll want obviously to max DEX, but you may have to blow slots on Shield / Mirror Image / other regularly because a low hit die means you can't affort losing HP too much. With that said, you could also compensate with feats: Defensive Duelist is lesser than Shield, but no-cost, Mobile feat provides free disengage against the enemy you hit, Inspiring Leader provides a big pool of THP, Tough, Dual Wielder, Moderately Armored (shield) or Durable can also provide a small but permanent boost to defense.

So you can play this as a full spellcaster, if that was the implicit question. ;) You will just have to be more attentive to your choices and much more careful in your tactics.

After measuring class features gained at certain levels and so forth I think I ended up deciding on Undyling Light Warlock 6/Draconic Sorcerer 14 for that character just as a conclusion to it all although I'm not sure that's the actually the best split.

Decision #2 was: All Fire Spells

Decision #3: Any left over spells slots spent on defensive buffs (Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, etc..)

Decision #4: Rapier and GFB melee all day every day and use metamagic for better/more/longer spells when needed.

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 05:23 PM

Citan

2016-12-28, 06:07 PM

For an example: Something like a Frost Death Knight was probably very doable in 4e - as it was very specialized:

- Wore Heavy Plate Armor
- Carried a Two-Handed (or Dual-Wielded) Weapon
- Used Frost Damage Type Spells (Icy Touch, Howling Blast, Chains of Ice, etc...)
- Did Heavy Burst Damage in Melee (Obliterate)

Very specialized. It debuffs (slows your movement speed, cleanses special effects from you, deals damage over time to you, in close proximity for too long freezes you), it deals heavy damage in melee and it controls (hard to get away from, lots of interrupts like brain freeze, asphyxiate etc..).

What would that be in 5e though? 7 Eldritch Knight/13 Evocation Wizard? Pick All Ice Spells + Silence + Anti-Magic Shell and attack with a Greatsword + Cantrip at level 7+ ?
Eldricht Knight + Draconic Sorcerer (or maybe Druid for more nature theme) seems the best bet to me.
You get most of the relevant spells, and with Heightened or Eldricht Strike (depending on how you build) you can safely apply save or suck spells or powerful AOE.
Other option is obviously Paladin / Sorcerer, so you can get Elemental Weapon.

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 06:17 PM

Eldricht Knight + Draconic Sorcerer (or maybe Druid for more nature theme) seems the best bet to me.
You get most of the relevant spells, and with Heightened or Eldricht Strike (depending on how you build) you can safely apply save or suck spells or powerful AOE.
Other option is obviously Paladin / Sorcerer, so you can get Elemental Weapon.

Ah interesting! Would you just use the Eldritch Knight for the Warcasting + Fighter goodies and use all spells slots/learn all spells "As Sorcerer Spells" ? Otherwise you'd need Strength/Int/Charisma all to be high depending on if you use "Ice Knife" as an Eldritch Knight (Int) or Sorcerer (Cha). Also what is a save or suck spell?

I was thinking though that a Dragonborn with White or...whatever else gives Cold magic affinity for and Draconic Origin White or...whatever else gives Cold would make for a sweet "Frost Death Knight" - Investiture of Ice is really good and basically "Remorseless Winter"

The ice spells seem pretty darn decent. Ranged and melee options. It's just too bad there's no "Green-Flame Blade" for Ice.

Well seems there's about a thousand ways to build a gish and all of them can be as generalized or specialized as you want. :)

King539

2016-12-28, 06:49 PM

Do Sorcadins make good blasters? I thought they were like tanks or something. They seem to be built around maximum utility not maximum blasting+striking.

Heck no. Quickened Fireball with the Dragon Sorcerer's lvl. 6 feature, crazy high ac, GFB... I'm playing a Sorcadin in SKT, and I actually spend most of my turns blasting. It's really powerful, and also really fun. Just go Sorcadin. Really.

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 07:31 PM

Heck no. Quickened Fireball with the Dragon Sorcerer's lvl. 6 feature, crazy high ac, GFB... I'm playing a Sorcadin in SKT, and I actually spend most of my turns blasting. It's really powerful, and also really fun. Just go Sorcadin. Really.

I want to play all of these lol. I want the Eldritch Knight+Sorcerder Death Knight, i want the Sorcadin, I want the Battle Master + Arcane Trickster "Support Bard" or whatever it was, and so forth. They all look fun and completely different.

Citan

2016-12-28, 07:45 PM

Ah interesting! Would you just use the Eldritch Knight for the Warcasting + Fighter goodies and use all spells slots/learn all spells "As Sorcerer Spells" ? Otherwise you'd need Strength/Int/Charisma all to be high depending on if you use "Ice Knife" as an Eldritch Knight (Int) or Sorcerer (Cha). Also what is a save or suck spell?

I was thinking though that a Dragonborn with White or...whatever else gives Cold magic affinity for and Draconic Origin White or...whatever else gives Cold would make for a sweet "Frost Death Knight" - Investiture of Ice is really good and basically "Remorseless Winter"

The ice spells seem pretty darn decent. Ranged and melee options. It's just too bad there's no "Green-Flame Blade" for Ice.

Well seems there's about a thousand ways to build a gish and all of them can be as generalized or specialized as you want. :)
First option, I thought it was kinda intuitive. ;) You obviously doesn't want to have to sustain attack stat + CON + two casting stats... Unless, of course, you shunt the whole weapon attack side, in which case, why take Fighter in the first place? ;)
And Sorcerer gets most interesting spells an EK could learn, and more, so it's not like it's any loss in fact.

Seriously, an EK 11 / Sorcerer 9 (balanced build) or EK 6 / Draconic 14 (because flying is that good) can work perfectly well with a low INT, you get few spell learned anyways as EK, so once you picked all the obvious (Magic Missile, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur) you can just pick a few utility spells to complement. These are spells you would have probably taken as a pure Sorcerer anyways. So it's basically a win-win.

I want to play all of these lol. I want the Eldritch Knight+Sorcerder Death Knight, i want the Sorcadin, I want the Battle Master + Arcane Trickster "Support Bard" or whatever it was, and so forth. They all look fun and completely different.

I think it becomes quite urgent for you to start actually playing the game... The frustration is making your brain burst with build ideas... XD

Ravinsild

2016-12-28, 08:26 PM

First option, I thought it was kinda intuitive. ;) You obviously doesn't want to have to sustain attack stat + CON + two casting stats... Unless, of course, you shunt the whole weapon attack side, in which case, why take Fighter in the first place? ;)
And Sorcerer gets most interesting spells an EK could learn, and more, so it's not like it's any loss in fact.

Seriously, an EK 11 / Sorcerer 9 (balanced build) or EK 6 / Draconic 14 (because flying is that good) can work perfectly well with a low INT, you get few spell learned anyways as EK, so once you picked all the obvious (Magic Missile, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur) you can just pick a few utility spells to complement. These are spells you would have probably taken as a pure Sorcerer anyways. So it's basically a win-win.

I think it becomes quite urgent for you to start actually playing the game... The frustration is making your brain burst with build ideas... XD

Well the group is finalizing and the schedule is being hashed out currently so we will begin with original characters soon. I am also picking up an ongoing AD&D campaign called "Against the Giants" and we are in the middle of the Frost Giant adventure part of that campaign but we recently converted it to 5e because I bought my Uncle all the D&D 5e Core Books. So I converted my old Human Barbarian to a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian and my Bard to a Valor Bard with a longbow but he isn't....what I thought he was :(

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 01:07 AM

Well the group is finalizing and the schedule is being hashed out currently so we will begin with original characters soon. I am also picking up an ongoing AD&D campaign called "Against the Giants" and we are in the middle of the Frost Giant adventure part of that campaign but we recently converted it to 5e because I bought my Uncle all the D&D 5e Core Books. So I converted my old Human Barbarian to a Half-Orc Totem Barbarian and my Bard to a Valor Bard with a longbow but he isn't....what I thought he was :(

Bards are kind of like what they used to be in TSR editions--characteristics of Fighters, Rogues, and divine or arcane casters' features, without being hugely focused on music-buffs like they were in 3.X. And they're utterly unlike the 4e bard. Although of course they're not a sort of prestige class taken after dual-classing Fighter and Thief to mid-levels each like in 1e. But like in 1e, and definitely-unlike in 2e (where they leveled super-fast, and made excellent blaster mages, of all things), Valor Bards take off quite late. 10th level is when the Valor Bard gets really going.

Until then, for a Dex bard, go for Crossbow Expert with a hand crossbow for reasonably-respectable damage to go with the solid support spellcasting. Bards' spell list makes them better debuffers than buffers in 5e, oddly enough.

Crossbow Expert and either Swift Quiver or Elemental Weapon (picked up at level 10 through Magical Secrets) make the VB an absolutely fantastic archer. I favor Elemental Weapon and a hand-crossbow if you take Sharpshooter as well as Crossbow Expert, since it helps offset the -5 penalty by 2 or 3 depending on the level you cast at, makes the weapon magical, and adds damage of its own, but I haven't crunched the numbers--Swift Quiver might work better even without a way to offset the Sharpshooter penalty. Someone better at math than me would have to calculate that. If all attacks hit, the damage potential for Swift Quiver+Sharpshooter (with Crossbow Expert to eliminate the one-shot-per-round limit on crossbows) with a heavy crossbow is about 10 or 12 points higher for a 5th-level slot, and your crit chance is higher, but your miss chance per shot is higher too (although having four instead of three attacks might even it out).

Dimers

2016-12-29, 01:44 AM

Would it be a pure Paladin? A Sorcadin? Great Weapon? Sword and Shield? Oath of Vengeance? Devotion? Conquest from the UA? Maybe even the Treachery for free haste?

6/14 Sorcadin? Or just 20 Paladin?

In the Sorcadin guide do I choose to be good at all of them option or excellent at some of them option?

The answer to all of these things is "yes". You can excel with any build. Sure, you won't be The Ultimate Maximum Combat Machine, but you can excel. And have fun, too.

Everything in 4e was very....categorized. Much like in a video game, especially an MMO, you had a...specialization. You were THIS one thing and you were very GOOD at this one thing and often optimizing turned into something like: Maximum possible damage dealer would be the Archer Ranger - but a Fiend Hexblade optimized would do the most damage the class could muster (less than other most optimized DPR builds) in addition to bringing all the riders/control/effects with it. So your specialization was maximum damage (for that class) plus all the "best" powers for your particular specialization which brought with it X amount of awesome utility/buffs/debuffs/control/damage/other effects.

I did optimization really differently from you, then. I optimized one character for hit points "on the table" ... one for noncombat stealth ... one for making multiple enemies prone, slid, pushed, slowed and -2 (or worse) attack every turn* ... one for nigh-unlimited durability ... one for oddball divinations ... hell, I did one for food production. Of course, I almost never played the Striker role; I think too defensively to pull it off well. So maybe you and I were really aiming at different targets all along.

*By 12th level, even without getting the feat taxes. I'm very proud of that one.

Lombra

2016-12-29, 05:14 AM

I've recently come up with the concept of a fighter 1/ bladelock 19: heavy armor+glaive for the martial part and the full power of the warlock with armor of agathys and what not. Add PAM/GWM for ridiculous damage, lucky also helps with survivability.
It is basically a paladin but it's a full caster.

Ravinsild

2016-12-29, 10:24 AM

Bards are kind of like what they used to be in TSR editions--characteristics of Fighters, Rogues, and divine or arcane casters' features, without being hugely focused on music-buffs like they were in 3.X. And they're utterly unlike the 4e bard. Although of course they're not a sort of prestige class taken after dual-classing Fighter and Thief to mid-levels each like in 1e. But like in 1e, and definitely-unlike in 2e (where they leveled super-fast, and made excellent blaster mages, of all things), Valor Bards take off quite late. 10th level is when the Valor Bard gets really going.

Until then, for a Dex bard, go for Crossbow Expert with a hand crossbow for reasonably-respectable damage to go with the solid support spellcasting. Bards' spell list makes them better debuffers than buffers in 5e, oddly enough.

Crossbow Expert and either Swift Quiver or Elemental Weapon (picked up at level 10 through Magical Secrets) make the VB an absolutely fantastic archer. I favor Elemental Weapon and a hand-crossbow if you take Sharpshooter as well as Crossbow Expert, since it helps offset the -5 penalty by 2 or 3 depending on the level you cast at, makes the weapon magical, and adds damage of its own, but I haven't crunched the numbers--Swift Quiver might work better even without a way to offset the Sharpshooter penalty. Someone better at math than me would have to calculate that. If all attacks hit, the damage potential for Swift Quiver+Sharpshooter (with Crossbow Expert to eliminate the one-shot-per-round limit on crossbows) with a heavy crossbow is about 10 or 12 points higher for a 5th-level slot, and your crit chance is higher, but your miss chance per shot is higher too (although having four instead of three attacks might even it out).

Yeah, I was disappointed because I thought I was getting a buffing archer out of this character - decent ranged damage + support/buffing spells but that is in fact not what I got. I got a character that spends most rounds making 1 attack for piddly damage and sometimes healing with Healing Word or Inspiring someone. Or casting a big offensive spells like Hypnotic Pattern weirdly enough. Not quite the "i buff you with my music and make you better at everything while I shoot my bow" like I thought I was making :/ wah wah

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 12:11 PM

Yeah, I was disappointed because I thought I was getting a buffing archer out of this character - decent ranged damage + support/buffing spells but that is in fact not what I got. I got a character that spends most rounds making 1 attack for piddly damage and sometimes healing with Healing Word or Inspiring someone. Or casting a big offensive spells like Hypnotic Pattern weirdly enough. Not quite the "i buff you with my music and make you better at everything while I shoot my bow" like I thought I was making :/ wah wah

5e spellcasting can be tricky to get used to coming from 4e, because there are a lot of options, but they interact differently with resource management and the action economy than 4e powers. The low-level Bard list is more powerful than it looks, too.

At lower levels, your weapon attacks aren't actually that bad--1d8+mod with a longbow is better than a lot of spellcasters' cantrips. Spellcasters aren't typically great for at-will damage in the first place, with certain exceptions. If you want to do some more serious weapon damage though, pick up Crossbow Expert as soon as you can (extra attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action); you'll have decent ranged damage then and pretty solid debuffs to go with it, plus decent healing (you heal about as well as anybody but a Druid with Goodberry, a higher-level Paladin, or a Life-domain Cleric, really. You're pretty much on par with Knowledge Clerics, Arcana Clerics, etc.).

You're already casting Hypnotic Pattern; it's one of the big ones for bards, so it sort of goes without saying how good it can be. But at low levels you don't get many uses of it yet, so these tips on lower-level casting might help:

*Sleep can be a powerful spell at early levels, as long as you roll well and don't expect to take out a ton of enemies with it. Use it to take out a mook or two, or possibly a single enemy spellcaster, but don't expect it to be an encounter-ender as much as some claim it is.

*Faerie Fire can be a terriffic spell (Advantage on attack rolls against enemies that fail their save, removes invisibility as well).

*Heat Metal is a great spell to debuff enemies, especially enemies wearing metal armor (which it can do a lot of damage-over-time to, since they can't drop their armor in combat).

*Dissonant Whispers can generate a lot of opportunity attacks if you use it on an enemy in melee, and it's got good damage for a first-level spell.

*Hold Person is fantastic (attacks against someone Held count as crits if they hit!). Great to disable the casters or heavy hitters among humanoid enemies.

*Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a little overrated by guides, but can be powerful if you primarily expect it to be a single-round debuff (initiative order matters a lot with it).

*The cantrip Vicious Mockery does very little damage, but gives Disadvantage on the enemy's next attack roll, and can be better at low levels than attacking as a result (also, the perfect excuse to quote the French Taunter from Monty Python and the Holy Grail), if you don't have Crossbow Expert.

*Thunderwave is a decent first-level AoE with a knockback effect that can be situationally useful.

*Shatter is decent second-level AoE. It's no Fireball, but not bad.

Don't forget that Combat Inspiration lasts ten minutes, so if you suspect a battle is coming you can pass it out ahead of time. Frees up your bonus action for, say, a Crossbow Expert attack, or Healing Word, or maintaining the damage on Heat Metal.

As odd as it sounds, it can be better to avoid in-combat healing with Healing Word until the moment someone drops unconscious. Then you bring them back up as a bonus action from range, after attacking or casting Vicious Mockery on your turn. It's not a powerful heal, so it doesn't necessarily do much to stop someone from dropping in the first place against a powerful enemy.

Crusher

2016-12-29, 03:10 PM

I want to play all of these lol. I want the Eldritch Knight+Sorcerder Death Knight, i want the Sorcadin, I want the Battle Master + Arcane Trickster "Support Bard" or whatever it was, and so forth. They all look fun and completely different.

Hah! I know this problem all too well.

I'm about to start a new campaign (at level 1), and the plan is to go Paladin 2/Favored Soul Sorc X (allowed with severe restrictions on extra spells). And I was totally enthused to play him... except that within like a day of finishing up his character sheet I started stat-ing out a Rogue/Bladesinger build that seemed to totally cool and I considered changing my mind... until I made a post in another thread thread about a Warlock/Sorcerer Infernal Inquisitor, at which point I spent a few days thinking about playing him... until I worked out his character sheet and I remembered that *originally* I wanted to play a Ranger/Rogue sniper for max dps... and that's where I am right now. Who knows what concept will grab my brain tomorrow?

Planning out character creation brings out the ADD in all of us, I suspect.

Citan

2016-12-29, 03:47 PM

Ravinsild

2016-12-29, 05:14 PM

Well, truthfully, you can make a decent archer of Bard for the big fights by grabbing Swift Quiver.
You could even push the idea to the max by grabbing 7 levels of Sorcerer to convert 5th slots. But that would be a bit of a waste...

Otherwise, just use the Magic Secrets to take some big blasty spells and get fun with it: Fireball, Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning are classics. ;)

Also, I plusses Jal_1138 comments on spells, ESPECIALLY Heat Metal. This one is a bread and butter for many fights: auto damage and impose disadvantage for no-save, almost (provided enemy is in heavy armor, there is usually no way for him to don it off before he's dead).

Ah the idea was more like the traditional "support" role - especially like in FFXIV where they use their bow as a stringed musical instrument to both shoot with, and play songs (basically like a bow harp, it's a video game and not realistic, but it's awesome). They have songs have replenish your spent mana, or technical points (melee mana honestly), debuff the enemies magic resistances so mages love them (makes them all hit harder), song of swiftness which makes everyone run faster, and they have decent AoE and single target capabilities.

I thought they Valor Bard would play like that...but then it didn't quite play like that....cuz in FFXIV you can have your buffs/songs going WHILE you fight. You don't EITHER buff OR fight.

In 5e they don't get many buffs spells (sadly) and also you can't really cast and shoot simultaneously so it almost feels like you take a break in the action to put a spell on someone (idk...let's say haste for fun) then go back to fighting instead of like...casually off-hand casting it with your bow-harp whilst shooting death upon your enemies.

Still I enjoy bards and I may just focus more on spellcasting and have the bow "when I need it" and go from there.

That said I'm now just trying to work out how to make this (Silver) Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer (Cold) 9/Eldritch Knight (11) concept come online ASAP. I'm thinking maybe level 3 Fighter first...then a few levels of Sorcerer to get the actual offensive magic since my Int will be terrible, grabbing anything from Necromancy or Cold Type from Sorcerer List and grab the essentials like "Absorb Element" and "Shield" and "Blur" and so forth from my Eldritch Knight.

Trying to make it so I have offensive magic at a reasonably low level but the essential "buffs" from EK - because the idea is that he uses cold spells and area effects (Investiture of Ice) to slow enemies then hack them down. (Ray of Frost slows, so does Frostbite I think, and so forth) bringing a slow, looming, painful death upon them.

Sort of like this: https://youtu.be/De-x6kQv85k?t=451

Slow...icy...looming death. I was also considering PERHAPS the Oathbreaker Paladin + Draconic Sorcerer. Frost DK FTW :D Although...I don't really know what the Oathbreaker Paladin actually does or what the Oath spell-list is like :s

Although it makes me hesitate because I kind of don't want to become auto-villain....or evil....

I'm heavily considering, though, Oathbreaker Paladin 6/7/9 and Draconic Sorcerer 14/13/11 and picking the same necromancy + cold damage type spells. I think War Magic at 7th level EK though and the free "defensive buff" spells from EK not cutting into my spells known budget. It's a tough call ;-;

furby076

2016-12-30, 03:36 PM

To extrapolate: Not exactly vague, just apparently either not possible or not a good idea in 5e. The main edition of D&D I've been playing and love to death is 4e. They broke down roles like "Striker" "Controller" "Defender" "Leader" and so on.. Typically the builds I was drawn MOST to were "Strikers" and while there were utility spells and powers it was also baked into damage.

I get what you are saying, but part of the reason 4e flopped, and people went back to 3.5 (I was one of them) was specifically because of this reason. Great, I'm a Striker, but 3 months down the road I want to add some other stuff - nope, I'm a striker. 4e felt very controlling on the options...kind of like a game where the new DM says "ok, you guys head down this path, you can't go to the left or right you just have to go straight". Not exactly giving the players options to explore. I understand why they went this route...3.5 was a flat open world of options, and it ran amok. They tried to reign it in with 4e, but man did the pendulum swing the other way. If 3.x was liberal, and 4e is conservative...then 5e is middle right.

BTW, in 5e..I'm playing a human (not v-human, OMG) paladin. I've chosen PAM, Shield and will go sentinel. Get as much ac as possible, and control the BBEG from beating up on my squishy allies (some of whom have as much AC as me...wth). I could easily pick up a greatsword and do some heavier damage. i have some utility spells, can be the face (have good charisma), etc. Options are good.

Nothing about being a damage dealer screams "has a shield" in my mind - maybe it's because in 99.9% of video games the guy with the shield is a tank, not a damage dealer so its' warping my perception but....shields just don't speak to me unless I'm trying to tank up. None of my 4e characters were Defenders though...

And that's a problem with your mindset: Video games. This is D&D, not video games. It's cool you can have a sorcerer with a longsword (Gandalf was like that). Video games tie you to certain roles - programming restrictions. D&D, our only restriction is our imagination and flexibility

Ravinsild

2016-12-30, 03:52 PM

I get what you are saying, but part of the reason 4e flopped, and people went back to 3.5 (I was one of them) was specifically because of this reason. Great, I'm a Striker, but 3 months down the road I want to add some other stuff - nope, I'm a striker. 4e felt very controlling on the options...kind of like a game where the new DM says "ok, you guys head down this path, you can't go to the left or right you just have to go straight". Not exactly giving the players options to explore. I understand why they went this route...3.5 was a flat open world of options, and it ran amok. They tried to reign it in with 4e, but man did the pendulum swing the other way. If 3.x was liberal, and 4e is conservative...then 5e is middle right.

BTW, in 5e..I'm playing a human (not v-human, OMG) paladin. I've chosen PAM, Shield and will go sentinel. Get as much ac as possible, and control the BBEG from beating up on my squishy allies (some of whom have as much AC as me...wth). I could easily pick up a greatsword and do some heavier damage. i have some utility spells, can be the face (have good charisma), etc. Options are good.

And that's a problem with your mindset: Video games. This is D&D, not video games. It's cool you can have a sorcerer with a longsword (Gandalf was like that). Video games tie you to certain roles - programming restrictions. D&D, our only restriction is our imagination and flexibility

I wouldn't say it's a problem - so much as a conscious choice. Games like Elder Scrolls really do let you be anything. You can be a Sorcerer in heavy armor and cast spells and have a greatsword. You're free to spend your points however you want, and make an weird combinations possible. It's about as free form as you can get in a video game.

However I tend to think of my character creation as a "whole" concept. This guy is....THIS. Such as like Fighting Games - Astaroth is the giant guy with a giant Axe. That's WHO he is. Nightmare is the crazy cool suit of armor with a giant sword. Hwang is the Korean with the Scimitar. Their fighting styles and armor (or lack of) and their whole..."kit" is the character. It's all part of their identity. Even blacked out with no details - just the outline - you know who is who. Same with anime characters. You know Goku. However Goku is as much a Super Saiya-jin as he is a fun loving guy that wants to have a good time and protect his friends and family. Goku is tied in with his Saiya-jin heritage and being the first (new) Super Saiya-jin in "modern day" aside from the legends of the SSJ.

So I get character concepts like "Ice-Magic using Swordsman" and that's who he is. He's a Frost Death Knight. Everything about his life informs this. His cold, black armor adorned in skulls. His pale deathly skin and white hair. The icy aura that clings to him. His giant sword carved with runes.

He was a Paladin - a noble king and a knight who protected his lands in good faith and wise a kind and benevolent ruler. However when his kingdom fell he was slain by a vampire - but spared from becoming one by the Raven Queen. Touched by death - tainted by the necrotic darkness - but still his true self. However this tainted his powers. His holy radiant magic of healing became corrupted and dark - necrotic and decaying. The soft warmth and searing bright magic he once wielded has become dim and cold and icy like the touch of death. He was flipped on his head.

His character is wielding a greatsword. His character is slicing through enemies and slinging ice spells - at the same time. His character is being a fallen paladin, on a crusade to redeem himself and be resurrected into true life.

He WAS a Vryloka Blackguard built from Heroes of Shadow in 4e. I don't know what he is in 5e or how to build him. I'm trying to find a way though. He's sort of like a reverse Arthas the Lich King - he died but is trying to make a comeback as a good person and redeem himself. It's all tied together.

Having a shield doesn't convey the same full on offensive crusade against his own curse. He's not defending he's attacking. He's not in a shield wall, he's a loner. He doesn't fight in a group he strikes out into the frey hacking at everything before him.

Using fire magic doesn't convey the icy clutches of death that grip his heart.

It breaks the feeling of the character. That's how I design all my characters. Their identity is wrapped in their class as much as who they are as a person. A reckless angry dude like Guts from Berserker wears black heavy armor and a giant sword. He doesn't wear bright bardic colors with a giant muskateer hat and a giant plume while raging on the battlefield. It doesn't look right.

Just like a clown doesn't wear a loincloth and run around with a sword and shield like he's a gladiator. A lot of my favorite characters attack with sword and magic seamlessly. It just seems difficult to do that in 5e. It would be cool if you could combo attack. Say you're an Eldritch Knight of 11th level.

You could Attack, Extra Attack (substitute) for a spell (Ice Knife), then Extra Attack Attack. But no. You either attack 3 times OR cast a spell. Or a cantrip and ONE bonus attack.

There's no breaking it into a seamless combo :(

Crusher

2016-12-30, 04:41 PM

I wouldn't say it's a problem - so much as a conscious choice. Games like Elder Scrolls really do let you be anything. You can be a Sorcerer in heavy armor and cast spells and have a greatsword. You're free to spend your points however you want, and make an weird combinations possible. It's about as free form as you can get in a video game.

However I tend to think of my character creation as a "whole" concept. This guy is....THIS. Such as like Fighting Games - Astaroth is the giant guy with a giant Axe. That's WHO he is. Nightmare is the crazy cool suit of armor with a giant sword. Hwang is the Korean with the Scimitar. Their fighting styles and armor (or lack of) and their whole..."kit" is the character. It's all part of their identity. Even blacked out with no details - just the outline - you know who is who. Same with anime characters. You know Goku. However Goku is as much a Super Saiya-jin as he is a fun loving guy that wants to have a good time and protect his friends and family. Goku is tied in with his Saiya-jin heritage and being the first (new) Super Saiya-jin in "modern day" aside from the legends of the SSJ.

So I get character concepts like "Ice-Magic using Swordsman" and that's who he is. He's a Frost Death Knight. Everything about his life informs this. His cold, black armor adorned in skulls. His pale deathly skin and white hair. The icy aura that clings to him. His giant sword carved with runes.

He was a Paladin - a noble king and a knight who protected his lands in good faith and wise a kind and benevolent ruler. However when his kingdom fell he was slain by a vampire - but spared from becoming one by the Raven Queen. Touched by death - tainted by the necrotic darkness - but still his true self. However this tainted his powers. His holy radiant magic of healing became corrupted and dark - necrotic and decaying. The soft warmth and searing bright magic he once wielded has become dim and cold and icy like the touch of death. He was flipped on his head.

His character is wielding a greatsword. His character is slicing through enemies and slinging ice spells - at the same time. His character is being a fallen paladin, on a crusade to redeem himself and be resurrected into true life.

He WAS a Vryloka Blackguard built from Heroes of Shadow in 4e. I don't know what he is in 5e or how to build him. I'm trying to find a way though. He's sort of like a reverse Arthas the Lich King - he died but is trying to make a comeback as a good person and redeem himself. It's all tied together.

Having a shield doesn't convey the same full on offensive crusade against his own curse. He's not defending he's attacking. He's not in a shield wall, he's a loner. He doesn't fight in a group he strikes out into the frey hacking at everything before him.

Using fire magic doesn't convey the icy clutches of death that grip his heart.

It breaks the feeling of the character. That's how I design all my characters. Their identity is wrapped in their class as much as who they are as a person. A reckless angry dude like Guts from Berserker wears black heavy armor and a giant sword. He doesn't wear bright bardic colors with a giant muskateer hat and a giant plume while raging on the battlefield. It doesn't look right.

Just like a clown doesn't wear a loincloth and run around with a sword and shield like he's a gladiator. A lot of my favorite characters attack with sword and magic seamlessly. It just seems difficult to do that in 5e. It would be cool if you could combo attack. Say you're an Eldritch Knight of 11th level.

You could Attack, Extra Attack (substitute) for a spell (Ice Knife), then Extra Attack Attack. But no. You either attack 3 times OR cast a spell. Or a cantrip and ONE bonus attack.

There's no breaking it into a seamless combo :(

Why is a cantrip + bonus attack not a seamless combo? You're casting a spell AND you're attacking twice in the same round (once as part of cantrip, once as bonus action). And you'd do your bonus attack first because at level 11 you'd have Eldritch Strike so if it hits, your opponent has disadvantage on its next saving throw against your spells. In 4e you didn't get to cast Eldritch Bolt AND attack. And its not like you got to spam Blazing Doom, and a lot of those abilities you didn't actually get at level 1.

But at the end of the day, it honestly comes down to balance. I'm certain that we could sit down and homebrew a class where every attack had some kind of special flexible bonus tacked onto it. But your regular attacks would have to suck. Because classes are generally balanced around being reasonably comparable with their basic suit of abilities. Then on top of that, you get a limited pool of resources to do extra stuff (like Battle-Master maneuvers or Paladin Smites or whatever... and I'm honestly still unclear why Paladin Smite spells don't cover this for you) which will get exhausted after a number of uses.

If you had a class that had comparable regular attacks to everyone else, and then got to layer on abilities that did extra damage or had significant control abilities without usage limitations, you'd be overpowered compared to everyone else. I wonder if you're misremembering the degree to which your abilities in 4e were usage-constrained.

Ravinsild

2016-12-30, 05:52 PM

Why is a cantrip + bonus attack not a seamless combo? You're casting a spell AND you're attacking twice in the same round (once as part of cantrip, once as bonus action). And you'd do your bonus attack first because at level 11 you'd have Eldritch Strike so if it hits, your opponent has disadvantage on its next saving throw against your spells. In 4e you didn't get to cast Eldritch Bolt AND attack. And its not like you got to spam Blazing Doom, and a lot of those abilities you didn't actually get at level 1.

But at the end of the day, it honestly comes down to balance. I'm certain that we could sit down and homebrew a class where every attack had some kind of special flexible bonus tacked onto it. But your regular attacks would have to suck. Because classes are generally balanced around being reasonably comparable with their basic suit of abilities. Then on top of that, you get a limited pool of resources to do extra stuff (like Battle-Master maneuvers or Paladin Smites or whatever... and I'm honestly still unclear why Paladin Smite spells don't cover this for you) which will get exhausted after a number of uses.

If you had a class that had comparable regular attacks to everyone else, and then got to layer on abilities that did extra damage or had significant control abilities without usage limitations, you'd be overpowered compared to everyone else. I wonder if you're misremembering the degree to which your abilities in 4e were usage-constrained.

Nah I remember they ran on a 1/long rest or 1/short rest system but mostly I'm talking about some of the at-wills. You're right though - Eldritch Knight does get this.

I'm thinking of running a Paladin Oathbreaker 7/Draconic (cold) Sorcerer 13....and reflavoring a lot of the Paladin stuff as necrotic or dark. Lay on Hands becomes Death Touch - instead of healing from your pool of HP you deal damage to someone as a touch attack. Divine Smite deals Necrotic damage instead of Radiant damage. Stuff like that. All the buff/heals/help your friends become debuffs/kill your enemies type features.

Paladin/Sorcerer seems pretty perfect for it. With some tiny tweaks it works great :) Instead of the fire smite dealing extra fire damage I'd reflavor it as cold damage - He coats his sword in an icy hue and slams it into his foe freezing them blood as they take a huge hit.

Stuff like that. It's little homebrew but it takes what's already there and basically just inverses the effect or changes a damage type. That shouldn't be OP right?