Rethinking D&D: New Skills& Stats

[CowardlyPaladin]

This is part of a


Ok so I have always felt that stats were way too limiting, like we have this notion of six stats buried into our head because it was there in Basic D&D and I’m thinking, why not try to expand from there, cause as it is Wisdom is really overpowered and Charisma doesn’t really make much sense, and dex is just confusing. So I went for a nine stat system, which has the added bonus of nine being a better number than six =p.
Firstly Wisdom as is makes no sense, I can understand why common sense would make you more aware of your surroundings, but why would that relate to willpower? So I split Wisdom into two stats, Wisdom and Spirit. Spirit is resolve, self control, and self knowledge, if your game using any sort of morale system Spirit is what allows you to resist it. It is the state of choice for more monk like casters like Benders or Wu Jen, and of course this is where you get your Will Saves.

Charisma we split into two stats, Charisma which is how likable charming and convincing you are, and guile which is how socially astute and manipulative you are, because somebody can be socially aware without being charming, I mean look at most politicians. Guile allows you to detect other people's intentions, while Charisma lets you convince people.

Finally we split Dexterity into two stats, Dex which is more like dodging, jumping, ranged combat, back flips etc, and Adroitness which is a mix of manual dexterity, hand eye coordination, and general multi tasking. Those seem different but trust me they are not, if you ever try doing like really fine manual tasks, you need to be able to multi tasks because otherwise you can’t move your hands in tandem. In many ways, Adroitness is sort of physical learning, and covers duel wielding, pick pocketing, setting/disarming traps, opening locks, and how many skill points you get.

One of the major design reasons for splitting these stats also balance, the less states you have, the easier it is for certain classes to min/max them, which inevitably helps casters. A wizard really just needs Int and some dex and they are good to go, but the more states around the more damaging min/maxing is, which means anybody who does it is going to be more powerful but also take more of a risk. Important to understand with this system is to other design choices I made for my games, specifically three


In my games levels go from 1-30, while level 30 is roughly on part with standard D&D level 20, I padded out the levels mostly 1-15 to give a greater sense of progression and to add more leveling dynamics

You get more stat points over the course of your adventuring career, which with more stats means that there is more to spend.

Each stat has its own save, I swear I came up with that idea before 5E but still its a good idea.



Ok so in my new system, what do the stats do? My design goal is to make every stat useful to every character and every stat able to be used as a dump stat if you want too

Strength: Strength isn’t just raw physical strength, it is how you use that strength, knowing how to use your muscle to its greatest effect is something actual professional athletes and soldiers work really hard at. So Drizzt is technically weaker than some some other characters, but he can hit harder because he knows how to use his strength. Strength covers BAB, damage bonus on most weapons (including bows), what weapons you can wield, how much you can carry and a few skills like Athletics and Ride. Since everybody is going to get into melee at some point, Strength will always be at least a little useful to every character, like a Wizard is unlikely to invest in it, but if they had a free item slot an item that gave them +4 strength which only worked for them, they wouldn’t sneeze at it.

The Strength Save is called “Stamina Save” and basically covers situations where you are very suddenly forced to exert extreme physical exertion. Holding unto a cliff while holding up the rest of the party, keeping a door open, smashing the other characters sword, breaking your handcuffs or snapping a dude’s neck, all of those are sudden unexpected displays of strength that count as Stamina

Constitution; Always population because hit points, and if your system uses fatigue, wounds or pain mechanics, Con would help out with that as well. Even though it has few skills based on it and only a couple classes have it as their core stat, it is always going to be wanted because hit points

Oh and Fortitude Saves, seriously fortitude saves are extremely useful considering how many monsters have nasty abilities and how popular poison always is.

Dexterity is still as always the most universally good stat to have, not only is it a secondary weapon stat (some weapons use dex instead of strength). Sneaking of any form is based on Dex so you really want that, a lot of skills are based on dex (though less than in core D&D) and certain classes use it as their core stat. Oh an initiative is based on dex, seriously Dex has it going on. If you have an Iron Hero Dodge mechanic, then that two would likely be Dex though maybe Strength depending on how you tread it

And in addition to all that, Dexterity has the Reflex Save, not quite as great as Will or Fortitude, but seriously this is extremely useful for traps, sneak attacks, or area of effect items.

Spirit is primarily a casting stat, some classes absolutely need it because that is where their magic comes from, or in the case of Mages, that is what keeps them from becoming abominations. Spirit has a few skills based on it, and if your game has a morale or pain sub system this is what would allow you to resists the negative effects, plus it has a lot of roleplaying applicability, because if you want to play a self assured, calm, internally calm character, they are going to want spirit. Certain domains like the Spirit World are easier to navigate with this state, and if any game requires a character to mediate to win, this is the stat you want.

Most importantly though, Spirit is defined by the Will Save, the absolutely vital adventuring tool that is needed to keep you from getting your brain eaten nom nom.

Charisma is the primary interaction stat and since social play is a much bigger focus in my game and a lot more skills are based on Charisma, this stat is really useful, even for non social character because you never know when somebody might interfere with you and you can’t just have one constant party face. Also some classes like Bards and Paladins cast primarily from Charisma, and a few power like Turn undead use Charisma. So you can still make it a dump stat but you will get into social encounters and you will complicate things for yourself.

The Charisma Save is Charm, which is just basic be likable, Charm isn’t to get a specific goal or get somebody to do something, it’s mostly just to make yourself an all around more likable person, which makes other social interactions easier.

Adroitness is a must have stat for rogues, Assassins and similar classes because of the manual dexterity focus, but luckily this doesn’t cause MAD because it replaces intelligence as the primary skill point stat. I admit that is in part a way to keep wizards from getting enough skill points to max concentration. Adroitness also has a few skills based on it (Sleight of Hand, Disable device), a few feats are absed on it (Dual Wield) and is the primary stat for crafting (and by extension Alchemists and Artificers),

The Adroitness save is known as Resolve, and it comes into place when your character is in a situation where a bunch of different stuff is happening at once and they are getting overwhelmed, they will have to roll this. So having a sword fight while trying to balance on a mast in the middle of a thunderstorm while dodging arrows that would require a Resolve save, or picking a lock while fighting is going on around you. Some creatures, particularly those with multiple arms can force a character to make a resolve check or they will take a minus to AC. Fighting a certain number of multiple opponents can have the same result.

Ok so poor Intelligence, i took away its biggest thing, so what does it have now? Well for some of the most important casting classes it is still the stat of Choice (Wizards, Psion, Sorcerers, Archivists, Magnus, Duskblade, Beguiler etc) and a lot of skills are based on it, to say nothing of the entire Lore/Knowledge abilities. It is one of the most important Roleplaying stat since being smart is a really solid part of your character, and designing complicated plans and design without int will be hard. Finally, in my game the Use Magic Device skill also dictates who many magic item slots you have, so a high int person can be wearing 6 rings while a low int person can only wear 2.

The Intelligence Save is Reason, which basically means how well you can find solutions to problems like puzzles, plots, or mysteries. I sometimes let you use it as a hint system. Also a lot of Psionic powers will target the mind and require reason saves. Depending on your players, you could have a roleplay like situation where you need to make a reason save for a character to come up with an idea of plan, since the Int 4 character likely wouldn’t be able to explain the french revolution, but maybe they will roll a 20.

Wisdom is still a really good spell even for classes who don’t use it as a casting power, it is the ability to not get sneak attacked and lets you find details everywhere, also a lot of skills are based on it. The Common sense part isn’t represented mechanically but it is extremely useful roleplaying wise, and of course Wisdom lets you see what is going on.

Wisdom’s new save is Perception, the basic “I want to see what is going on” save. The idea is that spot, search, and listen are more like specialist skills, so a Ranger might take listen so that they can hear anything, but everybody has at least a little perception so that you have a chance of detecting the rogue even if you have limited skill points.

Finally Guile, which I admit is sort of the new Charisma, IE that it is a massively useful skill for certain game or player styles…and not so much for anybody else. Political games or social characters are going to want Guile desperately, since it allows them to figure out what other people are up too and thinking, and the social background and groundwork of the situation. Also Guile is the way you solve “Is this random peasant asking for help my hel genuine or is he a demon trying to lure me into a trap”. A lot of social skills are based on guile obviously, as are a few casters (Warlock), and many classes (Courtier) need Guile to function. The one issue I have is a party will only need maybe two people with guile unless they get separated, because it only takes one person to go “it’s a trap” for everybody else to go “Oh ok then”

The Guile Save is Acumen, which basically is just “What does my gut tell me about this person/situation” save, succeeding it might allow a character to be like “this is sketchy, but I don’t know why” while failing it might have them say the same thing…about a perfectly normal situation. If your game is more roleplay heavy, this stat is going to become more useful.

So we have four physical stats (Strength, Constitution, Dexterity and Adroitness), Two social skills (Charisma, Guile), Three Mental Stats (Wisdom, Intelligence, and Spirit), though adroitness has some mental stuff in there.

Finally i just want to go over some abilities that aren’t represented by skills. None of the skills relate to how creative you are, or how emotionally healthy you are, how Wise in the traditional sense you are, how faithful you are, or how Brave you are, all of that is just displayed through role playing.


Change number 2, the Skills


Ok so my biggest change to the skill system is that they are now separate types of skills. I really want social interaction to be a larger part of the play experience but when you have to pick between bluff and Move Silently, what are you going to choose if you have a limited number of skill points? Also it doesn't makes sense, we are a social species, we pick up social knowledge separately than physical knowledge. so I made stats three separate pools, each with different set of skill points, so putting points in bluff will not not take points away from putting them in Hide.
The three skill categories are
1) General Skills. These are the general "stuff I know" skills, like Use Rope, Ride, Swim, Spot etc. The amount of skill points you get is based on your class plus your adroitness score, as a rule (though this might vary for specific classes it breaks down like this
Casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion, Witch etc): 2 plus adroitness bonus per level
Martial Classes (Fighter, Warrior, Knight, Paladin) : 4+ Adroitness bonus per level
Skill Monkey (Rogue Beguiler, Ninja, Bard): 6+Adroitness bonus per level
Factorum and Akashic: 8+adroitness per level

This might vary depending on class, but that is the general rule I want to follow.


2) Social skills, which is based upon your Guile. The system tends to go
Casters= 2+Guile Bonus
Martial=4+Guile Bonus
Hybrid/= 6+Guile Bonus
Social Classes= 8+Guile Bonus

3) Knowledge Skills. This is just what you know and understand. It is based on intelligence
Martial=2+Int Bonus
Social=4+int Bonus
Hybrid=6+int bonus
Caster=8+int bonus

Remember my games have 30 levels so you will be getting more skill points which is made up for by having more skills
So what are the skills?



Social Skills
Perform (Charisma): Playing an instrument, storytelling, and generally being entertaining.

Bluff (Cha): How well you can lie

Gather Information (Guile) how well you can pick upon rumors, knowledge, local information or just get a sense of the region

Wit (Cha): Being funny, spreading rumors,flirting, insulting people, and being actually likable. Varric being able to walk into a room and make everybody like him is wit

Sense Motive (Guile): Figuring out what...somebody's....motives are.....its mostly the anti lying skill. Haley noticing that Nale is not to be trusted is this

Haggle (Cha): Getting better prices

Persuasion: Getting somebody to do something for you, but not changing their mentality and general personality. So getting a guard to go inside cause i left my stuff there, persuasion, getting somebody who be my friend would be something else


Speechcraft (Ch): Public Speaking/formal speaking, Mark Anthony rallying the crowds of Rome is Speechcraft


Leadership (Cha): Commanding troops, inspiring loyalty, increasing morale. Prince Hal rallying his troops and maintaining his forces is Leadership

Intimidation (Cha/Str): Scaring people, Twyin Lannister simply looking at somebody to get them to shut up is intimidation


Innuendo (Guile): Communicating information without anybody noticing, like telling somebody know "The prime Minister is a doppleganger" without letting the prime minister know.


Diplomacy (Guile): Understanding social etiquette and social rules, positions of power, people's status, and most importantly, mechanics of what people want. Diplomacy also is about trying to find compromise and avoid offending people.

Composure (Guile/Spirit): keeping social cool, resisting torture, holding out against


Interrogation (Guile): Trying to get information out of somebody specifically, ideally through social pressure.

Manipulation (Guile): Determining the cause and effect of an action, if I do this, how will this person respond?

Disguise (Guile): Same as before

I was thinking of putting a skill in for "increasing your standing with people" but I am worried it will be OP


General Skills
I am going to go into detail for stuff that doesn't exist in the main game
Important to remember, is that since perception is a save in my game, spot/search/listen are in addition to what happens there, its more of an extra than a primary way of engagement. Also Sneak is an ability like int so everybody has at least a little of it, so Hide, Move Silently are in addition to the standard sneak ability.
Athletics (Str)
Acrobats (Dex)
Appraise (Adroitness/Int)
Balance (Dex)
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Spirit)
Craft (Adroitness)- Bunch of different effects
Disable Device (Adroitness)
Animal Empathy (Wisdom)
Escape Artist (Dexterity)
Calligraphy/Forgery (Adroitness)
Heal (Adroitness/Int):
Hide (Dex)
Move Silently (Dex)
Disable Device (Adroitness)
Sleight of Hand (Adroitness)
Search (Wisdom)
Spellcraft/Psicraft:Int
Survival (Wisdom)
Use Rope (Adroitness)
Use Magic Device (Int): Also determines how many magic items you can use
Alchemy (Adroitness/Int)
Conceal (Adroitness): Basically smuggling something on your person so it can't be found

Any other ideas of what could be added or removed?

Knowledge Skills
This is based on intelligence, there is basically knowledge on anything you can imagine so just listing some of the popular ones

Knowledge Religion (
Knowledge Local
Knowledge Arcane
Knowledge Psionics
Knowledge Nature
Knowledge: The planes
Knowledge: History
Knowledge: Nobility
Knowledge Planes
Knowledge Geography
Knowledge: Dungeoneering
And the list goes one


From a balance perspective this allows everybody to play a bit in the social and knowledge arena and undermines casters number of skill points

[WhatThePhysics]

I like it.

However, my personal opinion is that you can simplify the game by rolling the saves directly the stats. Rather than have a whole line of blocks with new terms that add complexity to the game, you could just do a Spirit roll to see if you keep your cool.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I like it.

However, my personal opinion is that you can simplify the game by rolling the saves directly the stats. Rather than have a whole line of blocks with new terms that add complexity to the game, you could just do a Spirit roll to see if you keep your cool.

I thought about that, but i realized the saves system allows more mechanical flexibility. With the save system, the party might find an item that gives a +2 to Reflex saves, which is good but is a lot less good than on that gives a +2 to Dex. Or like, if there is ritual that increases your reason save +4, that is a nice spell but not obscene, but one that increases your int plus 4 means that you also can memorize more spells. Also independent save progressions mean that a fighter with a low dex might still get a decent enough reflex. Splitting them just allows more player options which is something i like to promote

[JBPuffin]

I thought about that, but i realized the saves system allows more mechanical flexibility. With the save system, the party might find an item that gives a +2 to Reflex saves, which is good but is a lot less good than on that gives a +2 to Dex. Or like, if there is ritual that increases your reason save +4, that is a nice spell but not obscene, but one that increases your int plus 4 means that you also can memorize more spells. Also independent save progressions mean that a fighter with a low dex might still get a decent enough reflex. Splitting them just allows more player options which is something i like to promote

5e has the things you are talking about without giving the saves new names - a Dex save isn't a Dex check, and while they both use your Dex mod you only add your level-based bonus to some subset of the pair. More names complicate things as TPATPAM said...

That said, I love a 9-stat setup, as that means I could have a stat nonagon, and nonagons are just great. The perfectionist in me would rather see three phys, three mind, and three social scores, but much in the same way DnD spends most of the time on combat it spends most of its time on physical situations and dangers, so four phys is fair.

[Zale]

So, to preface this, have you looked into any non-D&D systems to see how the handled multiple attributes? I ask because the WoD and Exalted games have nine attributes divided evenly between the physical, social and mental categories, so those might offer you some interesting ideas!

With that said, let's do a breakdown:

You appear to have a large number of unknown house rules that make it difficult for me to judge some of the things you're presenting, so I'll work with what I'm given.

Splitting the Dexterity attribute into two is one that I've seen suggested a couple of times, as Dexterity is probably one of the over-all best statistics in most games that feature it. The naming choices are sort of interesting though, as a lot of times I've seen this it's had 'Dexterity' as the hand-coordination stat and 'Agility' as the speed and acrobatics stat.

I think it's really odd that Adroitness adds to your skill-points. I understand conceptually it's linked to a sort of, "Good with hands, good with doing things" but it can work oddly if a character just sinks all their points into a non-physical skill, like Knowledge or something.

I'll address the saves for each one at the end of my post, so I'll leave that for now and move onto the

Spirit is interesting, but I really have to wonder what that leaves for Wisdom to do? You seem to have throw it as an intuitive-sensory thing, and make vague suggestions about common sense. Spirit on it's own seems to exist almost entirely to have will saves and split-casting stats.

Guile and Charisma confuse me for the same reason Charisma and Manipulation in WoD confuse me: How am I supposed to know which one to use? Also, Guile appears to be stealing liberally from what Wisdom usually does, by taking it's turf as the Sense Motive/Sensory statistic.


So, onto the saves:

I don't understand what you are trying to use the extra saves for. The basic assumption of a save is, "X bad thing is going to happen to me unless I make a Y save to avoid it."

Saves are mostly about avoiding or resisting a problem because you're agile enough, or strong-willed enough, or tough enough.

Reason, Charm, Perception and Acumen saves seem like an application of a skill, rather than a save.

Additionally, Resolve saves seem completely thematically unconnected to the attribute. How does manual dexterity link to self control in stressful situations? Additionally, it seems like, unlike with Will, Fortitude and Reflex saves, the only time you will roll a Resolve save is in one kind of situation; the effects for failure are always the same.

Strength saves seem like the closest to the mechanical intent of a save, but I wonder if it's not needless more specific than a Fortitude save?

Also:

You seem to be balancing attributes at least partially on roleplaying requirements, by saying things like, "This attribute is good if you want your character to have 'X,Y or Z' as a personality trait."

Unless you have some form of mechanical backing to those, then that's no way of balancing attributes. If a number has little-to-no mechanical impact, and exists purely as a flavor option, then it will probably be the first to be discarded when someone is trying to build a character.

It's important that each attribute has a similar level of value, or you'll just end up with multiple statistics that everyone dumps as not being mechanically useful to their character.

This is especially relevant to a game based on D&D, as those flavor of games tend to place a high priority on competition and mechanical effectiveness.


That being said, I think what you're doing here is pretty interesting. A lot of D&D derived games never seem to want to try and innovate with attributes, so it's nice to see an attempt at breaking from that mold. I look forward to seeing where this project goes!

[CowardlyPaladin]

So, to preface this, have you looked into any non-D&D systems to see how the handled multiple attributes? I ask because the WoD and Exalted games have nine attributes divided evenly between the physical, social and mental categories, so those might offer you some interesting ideas!

With that said, let's do a breakdown:

You appear to have a large number of unknown house rules that make it difficult for me to judge some of the things you're presenting, so I'll work with what I'm given.

I never really got into Exalted or WOD mechanically, the main drive to me in those games was always the fluff and the tone, not the mechanics which I always felt were kinda loose and unsound. That might be because I have never DM either of those games in the past before, only played as a player.



Splitting the Dexterity attribute into two is one that I've seen suggested a couple of times, as Dexterity is probably one of the over-all best statistics in most games that feature it. The naming choices are sort of interesting though, as a lot of times I've seen this it's had 'Dexterity' as the hand-coordination stat and 'Agility' as the speed and acrobatics stat.

I think it's really odd that Adroitness adds to your skill-points. I understand conceptually it's linked to a sort of, "Good with hands, good with doing things" but it can work oddly if a character just sinks all their points into a non-physical skill, like Knowledge or something.

My logic for the skill points is there fold. Firstly, it nerfs some casters in a way that doesn't rob them of their play style. Wizards get a lot of skill points because they are going to try to max out intelligence, which means they can pour those points into concentration and avoid one of the major drawbacks of being a caster. So taking skills away from int is partly a balance issue
Secondly is a logic issue, if int is the skill point stat, then then that means that any body who wants to be a rogue, ranger, scout or any other sneaky class is going to want to max out their intelligence as much as they can, which means that every single one of those classes is going to be an intellectual. Now if an individual pickpocket who grew up in the streets happens to be as smart as the wizard that is fine, but if all of them are, it's weird. By tying the skill point stat to the clases who are most likely to be skill monkeys, it not only reduced MAD for those classes, it also avoids the illogical nature of super intellectual thieves
Thirdly, it makes Adroitness useful to all classes and avoids it becoming a dump stat. Without the skill check bonus, Adroitness is a vital stat for a few classes and builds, and useless to everybody else so they don't bother, now Adroitness is a vital state that everybody can benefit from.



Spirit is interesting, but I really have to wonder what that leaves for Wisdom to do? You seem to have throw it as an intuitive-sensory thing, and make vague suggestions about common sense. Spirit on it's own seems to exist almost entirely to have will saves and split-casting stats.

Honestly I think Wisdom was overpowered in standard D&D, being both the "Don't get possessed" save and the "Notice stuff around you save" makes it really powerful, as it is, I just reduced it. Wisdom is still going to be powerful, not just as the primary casting stat for a lot of classes, and it is the base for a lot of skills (Animal Empathy, Survival, Search, Spot, Listen etc), it also serves as the primary "See if stuff is around me" stat. And it keeps the common sense roleplaying value

Also again I don't see why a Ranger would be more resistant to mind control than a fighter.

now spirit I admit is a little tricky, in my games I use a morale system so Spirit is extremely useful as the stat that keeps people from panicking or running away, and Spirit is in my game the base for the concentration skill which is always popular, as well as the base for a lot of feats. If you aren't using a morale system though, Spirit primarily is the Will Save Stat, with some use for skills, and is extremely vital to a lot of classes. Dragon Age mages exist in my game for example, and they need Spirit to avoid becoming possessed. I also make it a big roleplaying state, people who have a lot of self control and inner connection use this stat and it makes working with the spirit world a lot easier



Guile and Charisma confuse me for the same reason Charisma and Manipulation in WoD confuse me: How am I supposed to know which one to use? Also, Guile appears to be stealing liberally from what Wisdom usually does, by taking it's turf as the Sense Motive/Sensory statistic.

Ok so it works like this, Charisma is your ability to be likable, to get people to do what you want, to inspire loyalty, to command respect, to get people to listen to you and do what you want. Guile is more social awareness, being able to tell if somebody is lying to you, understanding people's deeper motivations, seeing what somebody really wants, understanding if an action make somebody uncomfortable or take a sense of what the mood of a room is. Rob Stark from Song of Ice and Fire is very inspiring and people wish to serve him, but is a terrible judge of character and has no ability to determine people's true motives. High Charisma, low guile His mother Cat by contrast is really good at getting a read on people, on sensing the mood and understanding how people think, but she isn't good at getting anybody to listen to her or having her opinions taken seriously. High Guile, low charisma

Since social interaction is a much bigger part of my games, I expanded the amount of social skills dramatically. Charisma skills are
Bluff
Persuasion
Speechcraft (Public Speaking,debate, presentation etc)
Perform
Leadership
Wit (Being funny, gossip, insulting people)
Intimidation
Haggle

Meanwhile Guile skills are
Sense Motive
Composure (keeping yourself under control in socially awkward situation
Innuendo (Communicating secret messages, like telling your friend "This guy is a spy" without alerting the spy)
Diplomacy (Getting a sense of people's intentions, the mood of the room, how people are feeling, what might make somebody pissed off etc)
among others
Maybe even a Subterfuge Stat, which is basically a "IF x then Y" stat, you use it to determine what the effects of your actions will be socially.


So, onto the saves:

I don't understand what you are trying to use the extra saves for. The basic assumption of a save is, "X bad thing is going to happen to me unless I make a Y save to avoid it."

Saves are mostly about avoiding or resisting a problem because you're agile enough, or strong-willed enough, or tough enough.

Reason, Charm, Perception and Acumen saves seem like an application of a skill, rather than a save.

I always viewed saves as passive effects of the stats, ways they manifest when you aren't making an active effort to use them, or if they happen suddenly. So a reflex save is "thing jumps up and tries to bite you" instant actual.
But let me explain why all of those are saves

Acumen is reading a basic social situation's immediate effects. You know that scene in the Godfather where Luca goes to meet the Turk and gets assassinated? Well if that were a game, i'd tell Luca to role an Acumen save to see if he can detect the hostile intent from Sollatso before being assassinated.

Charm is just sort of an immediate application of...well charm. Like an awkward situation comes up so you flash that winning smile and fix them with your eyes and get them to leave you alone. "I swear to the gods officer, this whole situation is not what it looks like" Its just making you more likable and people want to hang out with you. Just being cool.

Perception is that "is that something in the corner of my eye trying to kill me?" save, if a ninja is about to sneak attack the ranger they get a perception to see if they notice the silent assailant. Without Perception saves, anybody who hasn't put points in spot or listen basically has no way of detecting hidden enemies, not at least they have a chance.

Reason is more like "Think fast" situations, like Violet from Series of Unfortunate Events, just in the moment "How can I think through this problem" type things. I somtimes us it as a DM hint system, if a high int character rolls well, i alert them to something that their characters might notice.



Additionally, Resolve saves seem completely thematically unconnected to the attribute. How does manual dexterity link to self control in stressful situations? Additionally, it seems like, unlike with Will, Fortitude and Reflex saves, the only time you will roll a Resolve save is in one kind of situation; the effects for failure are always the same.


Well speaking as somebody who would have abominable adroitness, it is more than just having nimble fingers, it is also about being able to coordinate different parts of your body with each other, in particular your hands. A great pianist can move both hands simultaneously without thinking about it, if they are really good they can do it while having a conversation and using their feet, a juggler can move the balls while riding a unicycle, a craftsmen can read a book while doing different things with their hands, its all about coordinating your body. So if your character is in a situation where a lot of stuff is happening at once, they will have to make a resolve check to see if they can focus. THis also provides a nerf to casters who are less likely to use adroitness, since if the wizard is on a ship in a storm, they are going to have to focus on more limited and easier to cast spells.

What do you mean by the effects of failure are always the same?



Strength saves seem like the closest to the mechanical intent of a save, but I wonder if it's not needless more specific than a Fortitude save?

Well i think breaking your handcuffs is a very different power set than resisting poison, though maybe I am making the classic mistake of perfecting symmetry over practicality in game design


One of the values of saves over just straight checks it that a character with a low stat can still be decent at the save. So if I am a fighter with a low dex, I am still going to get a decent enough reflex from my class progression, or if I am a Cleric I might get an ok will save through a magic item, it allows more flexibility with the stats as you use them. Because getting a stat bonus is a very big deal, but getting a +2 to Fortitude, that is nice but not huge. It allows for a greater variety of buffs, debuffs, and magic items and means that characters aren't entirely crippled by their stats if they so choose.



Also:

You seem to be balancing attributes at least partially on roleplaying requirements, by saying things like, "This attribute is good if you want your character to have 'X,Y or Z' as a personality trait."

Unless you have some form of mechanical backing to those, then that's no way of balancing attributes. If a number has little-to-no mechanical impact, and exists purely as a flavor option, then it will probably be the first to be discarded when someone is trying to build a character.

It's important that each attribute has a similar level of value, or you'll just end up with multiple statistics that everyone dumps as not being mechanically useful to their character.

This is especially relevant to a game based on D&D, as those flavor of games tend to place a high priority on competition and mechanical effectiveness.

WEll in my games I tend to only allow players to do certain actions if they have the stats to back it up. Like if Lilly the extraordinarily stupid halfling barbarian (int 3) is like "Wait a second guys, we could make a makeshift generator using the dead warforge's spine and that can open the door" I might go "Wait, your character isn't very bright, roll a reason" And if she rolls a 20 I might be like "Huh, occasionally you get a really good idea"

I will admit though, I don't think these stats are perfectly balanced, it looks like it goes
Dexterity/Adroitness
Constitution/Wisdom/Strength
Spirit/intelligence/Charisma
Guile

So guile is a bit of a dump stat, a lot of classes will absolutely need it, and every party is going to want at least one person who has it, but it isn't vital for everybody

Which I am not the happiest about, but I am not aiming for absolutely perfect balance, I am more interested in making a generally functional game that makes everybody feels useful, i'd rather have unbalanced unique gameplay than perfectly balanced sameness (4th edition i'm looking at you)



That being said, I think what you're doing here is pretty interesting. A lot of D&D derived games never seem to want to try and innovate with attributes, so it's nice to see an attempt at breaking from that mold. I look forward to seeing where this project goes!
Thanks, this is part of a long term project, i've been trying to remake D&D to fit the ideals presented by 3E (I haven't played 5E) while lacking all of the fail, and the difficulty is that reforming a game system is like renovating an old house or reforming a political system, everything you do effects other pieces, so you need to constantly be thinking "How does this effect the other stuff" So This is sort of a part of a larger picture, I also redid the skill point system, rewrote combat, rejiggered spells and altered LA.

I really appreciate your input and help, your comments are really useful thanks keep it up :)

[Steampunkette]

The only issue I have with this:

You just massively increased the odds someone is going to have at least 1 Very High Score.

[CowardlyPaladin]

The only issue I have with this:

You just massively increased the odds someone is going to have at least 1 Very High Score.

Yes it does, but with their being more stats and the stats being (hopefully) more valuable, a 1 high score won't unbalance the game too much

[Steampunkette]

You're actually reducing the value of some of the stats while leaving other stats just as valuable as before.

Strength is unchanged in it's use, but dexterity is now roughly half as useful. So a character based around Strength will be stronger than a character based around dexterity.

Unless Dex is roughly twice as good as Str to begin with.

[CowardlyPaladin]

You're actually reducing the value of some of the stats while leaving other stats just as valuable as before.

Strength is unchanged in it's use, but dexterity is now roughly half as useful. So a character based around Strength will be stronger than a character based around dexterity.

Unless Dex is roughly twice as good as Str to begin with.

Well dexterity was already the most useful stat in D& proper, it is just objectively a fantastic stat, it helps with range, initiative, a plurality of the skills, the all important reflex save, and helps with your AC or attack easily depending on your feats, as well as being the Stealth stat. Bumping Dex down a peg is really needed. But I don't think I made it half as useful, really all I did was take away some of its skills, dexterity is still extremely powerful even without Sleight of Hand, Disable device, and use rope. Dex still determines initiative, it still has the reflex save, it still handles range combat, it still can handle AC or attack, it still has a lot of skills and it continues to be the stealth stat, Adroitness doesn't really steal much from dex


Now currently I have a design question, I already expanded skills in my game anyways, but is it a bad design goal to make more skills so all the stats are represented skill wise?

[tsj]

Charisma is also often used to define physical attractiveness/looks... Might I suggest to add appearance as a stat? It could for example give bonus points to social situations.

Also I would suggest adding the Luck stat. It is a special kind of stat used in some d20 systems.
It can provide bonus to dice rolls (if rolled below current) but drains the stat. This stat can recover and it can be awarded points by the DM.

Also it can be used to determine outcomes in various situations

[CowardlyPaladin]

Charisma is also often used to define physical attractiveness/looks... Might I suggest to add appearance as a stat? It could for example give bonus points to social situations.

Also I would suggest adding the Luck stat. It is a special kind of stat used in some d20 systems.
It can provide bonus to dice rolls (if rolled below current) but drains the stat. This stat can recover and it can be awarded points by the DM.

Also it can be used to determine outcomes in various situations

I never really liked the idea of attractiveness stat, even beyond the whole notion that attractiveness varies dramatically from society to time period, I don't really think it works as a stat. I mean firstly I don't see what it does that Guile and Charisma would not, I mean would it come up as much as any of the other nine? Stats are suppose to work in a wide variety of circumstances, I don't see what attractiveness does other than giving a bonus to some social skills. Also a stat is something that I think you can actually work and improve. Like if I am naturally clumsy, and I am, the conceit of D&D is that you can focus yourself and work to improve yourself to not be clumsy, but I don't see how you can make yourself more attractive on a permanent level. A point in intelligence is me smarting and improving my reasoning and critical thinking skills, but a point in attractiveness I don't see how that works?

Attractiveness as a Feat or something would work though, something you take at 1st level to establish that that your character is really pretty.

As for the luck stat, are you saying that Luck would be cumulative, like you would build it up and then spend it like Action Points? Tell me more, I'm intrigued

[JBPuffin]

As for the luck stat, are you saying that Luck would be cumulative, like you would build it up and then spend it like Action Points? Tell me more, I'm intrigued

If you want Luck like this, do yourself a favor and don't call it a "Stat;" Luck in most games always function like Pools rather than objective measures of "the universe likes this person better/worse than most other people," which is relegated to Feat/Flaw distinctions. Luck Pool? Totally works like tsj suggests, but isn't a stat. A Luck Stat would be a semi-static summary of how coincidence-prone you are ("You find a gold coin lying on the side of the road") and how good or bad said coincidences are. Feats and class features could open the door to using Luck in place of other ability scores ("You remind me of an old friend, so I'll help you just this once" as Luck-based Diplomacy), and it might do some things on its own, but a Luck Stat is not a Luck Pool in a logically-consistent attribute system.

[Solaris]

Strength is unchanged in it's use, but dexterity is now roughly half as useful. So a character based around Strength will be stronger than a character based around dexterity.

Unless Dex is roughly twice as good as Str to begin with.

It... it is, yes. Strength is really only useful to low- and mid-level melee beatsticks. Dexterity is useful to everyone at all levels in very nearly every situation in the game outside (most) social interactions... which Strength itself is not useful in.

[CowardlyPaladin]

If you want Luck like this, do yourself a favor and don't call it a "Stat;" Luck in most games always function like Pools rather than objective measures of "the universe likes this person better/worse than most other people," which is relegated to Feat/Flaw distinctions. Luck Pool? Totally works like tsj suggests, but isn't a stat. A Luck Stat would be a semi-static summary of how coincidence-prone you are ("You find a gold coin lying on the side of the road") and how good or bad said coincidences are. Feats and class features could open the door to using Luck in place of other ability scores ("You remind me of an old friend, so I'll help you just this once" as Luck-based Diplomacy), and it might do some things on its own, but a Luck Stat is not a Luck Pool in a logically-consistent attribute system.

Yeah that is how I would do ti myself, though I am curious if tsj would have some new way of doing it.


Solaris: Do you think that Dex is at least somewhat less OP in this new system?

[tsj]

Yeah that is how I would do ti myself, though I am curious if tsj would have some new way of doing it.


Solaris: Do you think that Dex is at least somewhat less OP in this new system?


Well in fighting fantasy d20 it is a stat but used as a pool.
It is only a stat in the sense that you initially allocate points to it like
you would other stats AFAIR

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well in fighting fantasy d20 it is a stat but used as a pool.
It is only a stat in the sense that you initially allocate points to it like
you would other stats AFAIR

What is AFAIR?

Like in FF do you have normal stats and this one works different.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions? I realized that my stats actually do match up with a 3/3 system in a WoD sense, like this
3 offensive stats (Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma)
3 Defensive stats (Constitution, Spirit, Wisdom )
3 Avoidance stats (Dexterity, Adroitness, Guile)

So here is my question, I also rewrote the skill system to accommodate the stats, should I post that here or start a new thread?

[JBPuffin]

Any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions? I realized that my stats actually do match up with a 3/3 system in a WoD sense, like this
3 offensive stats (Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma)
3 Defensive stats (Constitution, Spirit, Wisdom )
3 Avoidance stats (Dexterity, Adroitness, Guile)

So here is my question, I also rewrote the skill system to accommodate the stats, should I post that here or start a new thread?

Same thread, no doubt. Note it with a new post to bump thread then put the actual info in the first post.

[bekeleven]

Imagine a system with only one stat: Effectiveness. Assuming you're doing point buy, all characters will be equal.

Now let's expand it. This system now has two stats: Aspect covers all physical and mental abilities, and Domain covers magic. It's fairly easy at this point to compare two characters, and if one stat is better than the other, presumably all players will build to similarly take advantage of it. There is, however, the chance that specialization causes multiple builds to coexist in the meta. Odds are that these won't be perfectly equal in power - But they should be close, because a system this simple should be easy to balance. Insert "Team-based game" here. As long as all parties contribute a bit of discrepancy is fine, although there's a chance that a less enfranchised player might make a suboptimal build.

Now let's expand the system again. I have the following stats written up: Foot strength, foot flexibility, leg strength, leg flexibility, core strength, core flexibility, arm strength, arm flexibility, neck strength, neck flexibility, jaw strength, jaw flexibility, hand strength, hand flexibility, sight, hearing, tasting, smelling, reaction time, stamina, precision, and insight. In time, I notice that a meta emerges. You see, archers need both arm, hand, and core stats, along with sight, stamina, precision, and insight. Spearmen need every one of those, in addition to both foot stats, both leg stats, and reaction time. Assuming that rolling a high number when using a bow is similarly effective in combat to rolling a high number with a spear, the archers will have a much easier time not having bad relevant stats.

I then add a thief. Thieves need foot flexibility, core stats, arm stats, hand stats, sight, hearing, smelling, reaction time, stamina, precision, and insight. That's a lot, but not as many as spearmen.

Now, let's add mages. they use stamina, precision, insight, and hand flexibility. This is clearly too few stats - mages will break the system in half! So to fix it, I break hand flexibility into hand movement speed, hand contortion, and hand precision. And I break insight into self-awareness, emotional insight, and cosmic truth.

I needed to fix mages using only 4 stats, so I added 4 new ones. Depending on how I design my magic system, mages will need 2 or 3 of them. Archers, meanwhile, go from needing 10 stats to needing 11 (They don't need hand contortion, and use only self-awareness from insight). Spearmen go from needing 15 to needing 16. Thieves go from 14 to 17, needing all hand stats as well as self-awareness and emotional insight, to detect suspicion.

I "Fixed" the problem: The archetype using the fewest stats now uses more of them. The number of stats that is uses grew proportionally more than every other type of character (from 4 to 6 or 7 is a 50% or 75% increase). In numbers, it grew a bit slower or the same rate than the thief, and faster than the archer and the spearman.

But if the problem with my system was that the mage was too powerful, I haven't addressed that, and I've made every other class more miserable than they were before, especially the thief. Thieves might decide that they don't need core strength to lift themselves into windows or emotional insight if they stay out of sight enough. Mages might decide they don't need to cast a few of their giant pile of spells that really need hand contortion, and otherwise their stats are a bit lower than they were before.


One of the major design reasons for splitting these stats also balance, the less states you have, the easier it is for certain classes to min/max them, which inevitably helps casters. A wizard really just needs Int and some dex and they are good to go, but the more states around the more damaging min/maxing is, which means anybody who does it is going to be more powerful but also take more of a risk.

Under your system, a few caster 18s may become 16s, as they move from having 1.5 key stats to 2 or 2.5. A skirmisher monk, meanwhile, needs strength, dexterity, adroitness, constitution, wisdom, and spirit. Who's the real loser?

The imbalance in D&D exists at the system level. There aren't stats for recall, for pronunciation, for mental focus, for every minutiae of bending the universe to your will as there are for each step of swinging an axe or having an axe swung at you. You can break stats up and make wizards need multiple, but the atomic units that the system works in are built for wargaming, so you'll need to do a lot of work to prevent other characters from needing those stats as well.

A warlock with all 8s is a playable character, stronger at mid levels than most martial classes. The same is very true of a wizard with all 8s except with the minimum intelligence required to cast appropriately leveled spells. There aren't mechanisms to systemize how the class functions, so they can't be easily balanced by adding stats. You can balance them, but it will be enough work that you might as well not start with D&D as your system base.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Imagine a system with only one stat: Effectiveness. Assuming you're doing point buy, all characters will be equal.

Now let's expand it. This system now has two stats: Aspect covers all physical and mental abilities, and Domain covers magic. It's fairly easy at this point to compare two characters, and if one stat is better than the other, presumably all players will build to similarly take advantage of it. There is, however, the chance that specialization causes multiple builds to coexist in the meta. Odds are that these won't be perfectly equal in power - But they should be close, because a system this simple should be easy to balance. Insert "Team-based game" here. As long as all parties contribute a bit of discrepancy is fine, although there's a chance that a less enfranchised player might make a suboptimal build.

Now let's expand the system again. I have the following stats written up: Foot strength, foot flexibility, leg strength, leg flexibility, core strength, core flexibility, arm strength, arm flexibility, neck strength, neck flexibility, jaw strength, jaw flexibility, hand strength, hand flexibility, sight, hearing, tasting, smelling, reaction time, stamina, precision, and insight. In time, I notice that a meta emerges. You see, archers need both arm, hand, and core stats, along with sight, stamina, precision, and insight. Spearmen need every one of those, in addition to both foot stats, both leg stats, and reaction time. Assuming that rolling a high number when using a bow is similarly effective in combat to rolling a high number with a spear, the archers will have a much easier time not having bad relevant stats.

I then add a thief. Thieves need foot flexibility, core stats, arm stats, hand stats, sight, hearing, smelling, reaction time, stamina, precision, and insight. That's a lot, but not as many as spearmen.

Now, let's add mages. they use stamina, precision, insight, and hand flexibility. This is clearly too few stats - mages will break the system in half! So to fix it, I break hand flexibility into hand movement speed, hand contortion, and hand precision. And I break insight into self-awareness, emotional insight, and cosmic truth.

I needed to fix mages using only 4 stats, so I added 4 new ones. Depending on how I design my magic system, mages will need 2 or 3 of them. Archers, meanwhile, go from needing 10 stats to needing 11 (They don't need hand contortion, and use only self-awareness from insight). Spearmen go from needing 15 to needing 16. Thieves go from 14 to 17, needing all hand stats as well as self-awareness and emotional insight, to detect suspicion.

I "Fixed" the problem: The archetype using the fewest stats now uses more of them. The number of stats that is uses grew proportionally more than every other type of character (from 4 to 6 or 7 is a 50% or 75% increase). In numbers, it grew a bit slower or the same rate than the thief, and faster than the archer and the spearman.

But if the problem with my system was that the mage was too powerful, I haven't addressed that, and I've made every other class more miserable than they were before, especially the thief. Thieves might decide that they don't need core strength to lift themselves into windows or emotional insight if they stay out of sight enough. Mages might decide they don't need to cast a few of their giant pile of spells that really need hand contortion, and otherwise their stats are a bit lower than they were before.



Under your system, a few caster 18s may become 16s, as they move from having 1.5 key stats to 2 or 2.5. A skirmisher monk, meanwhile, needs strength, dexterity, adroitness, constitution, wisdom, and spirit. Who's the real loser?

The imbalance in D&D exists at the system level. There aren't stats for recall, for pronunciation, for mental focus, for every minutiae of bending the universe to your will as there are for each step of swinging an axe or having an axe swung at you. You can break stats up and make wizards need multiple, but the atomic units that the system works in are built for wargaming, so you'll need to do a lot of work to prevent other characters from needing those stats as well.

A warlock with all 8s is a playable character, stronger at mid levels than most martial classes. The same is very true of a wizard with all 8s except with the minimum intelligence required to cast appropriately leveled spells. There aren't mechanisms to systemize how the class functions, so they can't be easily balanced by adding stats. You can balance them, but it will be enough work that you might as well not start with D&D as your system base.

Well if the solution is "don't play D&D" that doesn't really really leave me with much. Your suggestion a totally different game, and while that might work, at that point i'm not playing D&D anymore

1) your right, that D&D balance is broken on a system level, I am trying to fix one part of it.


2) 9 isn't an atomic unit, I don't want to have stats for everything, i specifically said things I am not going to have stats for, I am talking about having a range of abilities to allow for different abilities and different skills


3) Stats don't solve anything, but they do punish min/maxing, which hurts CoDzilla more. For example, pre my version, a Wizard really just has to put stats in Intelligence and maybe some Dexterity, cause int not only gets them spells, but also skill points, which means they can easily max out spell-craft and concentration without having to diversify. But in my new system, it would behoove them to put at least some points into adroitness so they can have some skill points, and maybe some Spirit so they can really make the most out of that concentration skill.
A bigger example of this is Cleric/Druid, because prior to the 9 point system, the stat they want for casting not only makes them really perspective, but also gives them a great will save, now they going to have to choose between getting more powerful magic or increasing their ability to avoid mind control. The MAD problem for monks still exists, but it is basically the same as in 3E, Just with wisdom swaped for Spirit,


4) A warlock with all 8s will be really terrible, because their saves would be abysmal, they'd be mind controlled easily, killed by anything that requires a reflex save, or get poisoned real easily, if you start out with 8s in all stats, it will be a miracle to even get to mid levels.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Ok so round 2, the skills

Change number 2, the Skills


Ok so my biggest change to the skill system is that they are now separate types of skills. I really want social interaction to be a larger part of the play experience but when you have to pick between bluff and Move Silently, what are you going to choose if you have a limited number of skill points? Also it doesn't makes sense, we are a social species, we pick up social knowledge separately than physical knowledge. so I made stats three separate pools, each with different set of skill points, so putting points in bluff will not not take points away from putting them in Hide.
The three skill categories are
1) General Skills. These are the general "stuff I know" skills, like Use Rope, Ride, Swim, Spot etc. The amount of skill points you get is based on your class plus your adroitness score, as a rule (though this might vary for specific classes it breaks down like this
Casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion, Witch etc): 2 plus adroitness bonus per level
Martial Classes (Fighter, Warrior, Knight, Paladin) : 4+ Adroitness bonus per level
Skill Monkey (Rogue Beguiler, Ninja, Bard): 6+Adroitness bonus per level
Factorum and Akashic: 8+adroitness per level

This might vary depending on class, but that is the general rule I want to follow.


2) Social skills, which is based upon your Guile. The system tends to go
Casters= 2+Guile Bonus
Martial=4+Guile Bonus
Hybrid/= 6+Guile Bonus
Social Classes= 8+Guile Bonus

3) Knowledge Skills. This is just what you know and understand. It is based on intelligence
Martial=2+Int Bonus
Social=4+int Bonus
Hybrid=6+int bonus
Caster=8+int bonus

Remember my games have 30 levels so you will be getting more skill points which is made up for by having more skills
So what are the skills?



Social Skills
Perform (Charisma): Playing an instrument, storytelling, and generally being entertaining.

Bluff (Cha): How well you can lie

Gather Information (Guile) how well you can pick upon rumors, knowledge, local information or just get a sense of the region

Wit (Cha): Being funny, spreading rumors,flirting, insulting people, and being actually likable. Varric being able to walk into a room and make everybody like him is wit

Sense Motive (Guile): Figuring out what...somebody's....motives are.....its mostly the anti lying skill. Haley noticing that Nale is not to be trusted is this

Haggle (Cha): Getting better prices

Persuasion: Getting somebody to do something for you, but not changing their mentality and general personality. So getting a guard to go inside cause i left my stuff there, persuasion, getting somebody who be my friend would be something else


Speechcraft (Ch): Public Speaking/formal speaking, Mark Anthony rallying the crowds of Rome is Speechcraft


Leadership (Cha): Commanding troops, inspiring loyalty, increasing morale. Prince Hal rallying his troops and maintaining his forces is Leadership

Intimidation (Cha/Str): Scaring people, Twyin Lannister simply looking at somebody to get them to shut up is intimidation


Innuendo (Guile): Communicating information without anybody noticing, like telling somebody know "The prime Minister is a doppleganger" without letting the prime minister know.


Diplomacy (Guile): Understanding social etiquette and social rules, positions of power, people's status, and most importantly, mechanics of what people want. Diplomacy also is about trying to find compromise and avoid offending people.

Composure (Guile/Spirit): keeping social cool, resisting torture, holding out against


Interrogation (Guile): Trying to get information out of somebody specifically, ideally through social pressure.

Manipulation (Guile): Determining the cause and effect of an action, if I do this, how will this person respond?

Disguise (Guile): Same as before

I was thinking of putting a skill in for "increasing your standing with people" but I am worried it will be OP


General Skills
I am going to go into detail for stuff that doesn't exist in the main game
Important to remember, is that since perception is a save in my game, spot/search/listen are in addition to what happens there, its more of an extra than a primary way of engagement. Also Sneak is an ability like int so everybody has at least a little of it, so Hide, Move Silently are in addition to the standard sneak ability.
Athletics (Str)
Acrobats (Dex)
Appraise (Adroitness/Int)
Balance (Dex)
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Spirit)
Craft (Adroitness)- Bunch of different effects
Disable Device (Adroitness)
Animal Empathy (Wisdom)
Escape Artist (Dexterity)
Calligraphy/Forgery (Adroitness)
Heal (Adroitness/Int):
Hide (Dex)
Move Silently (Dex)
Disable Device (Adroitness)
Sleight of Hand (Adroitness)
Search (Wisdom)
Spellcraft/Psicraft:Int
Survival (Wisdom)
Use Rope (Adroitness)
Use Magic Device (Int): Also determines how many magic items you can use
Alchemy (Adroitness/Int)
Conceal (Adroitness): Basically smuggling something on your person so it can't be found

Any other ideas of what could be added or removed?

Knowledge Skills
This is based on intelligence, there is basically knowledge on anything you can imagine so just listing some of the popular ones

Knowledge Religion (
Knowledge Local
Knowledge Arcane
Knowledge Psionics
Knowledge Nature
Knowledge: The planes
Knowledge: History
Knowledge: Nobility
Knowledge Planes
Knowledge Geography
Knowledge: Dungeoneering
And the list goes one


From a balance perspective this allows everybody to play a bit in the social and knowledge arena and undermines casters number of skill points

[tsj]

What is AFAIR?

Like in FF do you have normal stats and this one works different.

AFAIR = as far as I remember

Yes it is a stat but it is used differently

[CowardlyPaladin]

AFAIR = as far as I remember

Yes it is a stat but it is used differently

Do you think that a Luck stat is really needed for D&D?

Anybody have any thoughts on the Skill system?

[Typhon]

If you can track it down. AD&D 2e had a option book called skills and powers. In it they took the base 6 stats and split them all so that they reflected more depth. It treated the Main score as the average and allowed the sub-scores to vary by two up or down.

Strength = Stamina + Muscle

Stamina is used to check matters of muscular efficiency; swimming for extended periods, carrying heavy burdens.

Muscle is pure physicality; bending bars, attack/damage with weapons, and breaking down doors.

Dexterity = Aim(Adroitness) + Balance(Agility)

Aim(Adroitness) relates to deftness with hands; picking locks, thrown weapons.

Balance(Agility) dealt with how one carries oneself and moves; moving silently, reflex save, basic defense.

Constitution = Health + Fitness

Health relates to your general well being; fortitude/poison save.

Fitness is you endurance and additional hit points.

Intelligence = Reason + Knowledge

Reason is the ability to process information and problem solving. This also reflected your highest known spell level, and immunity to illusions/phantasms.

Knowledge related to level of education, ability to learn spells and bonus for proficiencies.

Wisdom = Intuition + Willpower

Intuition(common sense) would cover things like passive perception/insight in the new system.

Willpower determined if you could resist certain magics and things affecting the mind; mostly enchantment/charm magic and mind altering powers.

Charisma = Leadership(Personality) + Appearance

Leadership is representative of how forceful a characters personality is. This can be used in game to calm or incite emotion in others to avoid or cause changes in situations. This is expressed by number of followers and their loyalty.

Appearance is the presence of that character, both physically and how they present themselves. This affected how intelligent creatures and NPC's react to the character on initial meetings. It also had an effect on etiquette and performances.

I think that this system could easily be tacked on or rewritten into a current edition game with very little effort. I think that the most difficult part might be deciding what sub-ability might have an effect on what skill. But that should probably be considered a DM/house/situational decision at any rate.

[CowardlyPaladin]

If you can track it down. AD&D 2e had a option book called skills and powers. In it they took the base 6 stats and split them all so that they reflected more depth. It treated the Main score as the average and allowed the sub-scores to vary by two up or down.

Strength = Stamina + Muscle

Stamina is used to check matters of muscular efficiency; swimming for extended periods, carrying heavy burdens.

Muscle is pure physicality; bending bars, attack/damage with weapons, and breaking down doors.

Dexterity = Aim(Adroitness) + Balance(Agility)

Aim(Adroitness) relates to deftness with hands; picking locks, thrown weapons.

Balance(Agility) dealt with how one carries oneself and moves; moving silently, reflex save, basic defense.

Constitution = Health + Fitness

Health relates to your general well being; fortitude/poison save.

Fitness is you endurance and additional hit points.

Intelligence = Reason + Knowledge

Reason is the ability to process information and problem solving. This also reflected your highest known spell level, and immunity to illusions/phantasms.

Knowledge related to level of education, ability to learn spells and bonus for proficiencies.

Wisdom = Intuition + Willpower

Intuition(common sense) would cover things like passive perception/insight in the new system.

Willpower determined if you could resist certain magics and things affecting the mind; mostly enchantment/charm magic and mind altering powers.

Charisma = Leadership(Personality) + Appearance

Leadership is representative of how forceful a characters personality is. This can be used in game to calm or incite emotion in others to avoid or cause changes in situations. This is expressed by number of followers and their loyalty.

Appearance is the presence of that character, both physically and how they present themselves. This affected how intelligent creatures and NPC's react to the character on initial meetings. It also had an effect on etiquette and performances.

I think that this system could easily be tacked on or rewritten into a current edition game with very little effort. I think that the most difficult part might be deciding what sub-ability might have an effect on what skill. But that should probably be considered a DM/house/situational decision at any rate.

That is actually what inspired me to come up with new stats in the first place, i tried implementing this system but it didn't really work out so I abandoned it for something else. The problem with the sub stats is that they don't really have mechnical usefulness without getting fiddling real fast. The problem is not all of the sub states are really equally useful and the game isn't designed mechanically to take advantage of it. I always liked the idea a lot.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well if the solution is "don't play D&D" that doesn't really really leave me with much. Your suggestion a totally different game, and while that might work, at that point i'm not playing D&D anymore.

I think the takeaway I got from this was less "don't play D&D" and more "consider what effect the stats you're adding bring to the game."

Looking at this, it does seem that non-casters are going to be affected far more than casters. Casters like Dexterity for defenses, but don't NEED it. They might like Adroitness, but spells can cover for skills frequently. Other than that, they get their casting stat, and maybe a moderate Constitution. So 2-3.5 out of 9.

A Rogue, meanwhile, wants Guile (for the traditional Rogue), Dexterity, Adroitness, Charisma, and can't afford to dump Strength or Constitution. He also wants Wisdom to be able to be aware of things. That's 5-7 out of 9.

------------------------

Now don't get me wrong -- I like the intent behind this. But I'd argue your divisions aren't in the right places.

We have three stats that any non-magical character cares about -- Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Some non-magical classes also care about 2-3 of the others. We have one stat that magical characters card about -- their casting stat. Sometimes they care about Dexterity and/or Constitution.

So what we need to do, instead of increasing the burden on non-casters and casters alike, is even the playing field a little. Perhaps we introduce the stats "Arcana" and "Spirit," which serve to set the DCs of your Arcane and/or Divine spells, with the Paladin getting a feature that lets him use his Spirit and Wisdom interchangeably. Suddenly we've given all casters more stats to worry about, but haven't increased the burden on most non-casters much.

Again, that's a rather poorly conceived idea for example direction only, but I do think it proves the point -- simply adding more stats doesn't really fix the main issue here. But the issue COULD, I feel, be fixed in part by making sure that you add those stats in the right places, targetting the right systems.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I think the takeaway I got from this was less "don't play D&D" and more "consider what effect the stats you're adding bring to the game."

Looking at this, it does seem that non-casters are going to be affected far more than casters. Casters like Dexterity for defenses, but don't NEED it. They might like Adroitness, but spells can cover for skills frequently. Other than that, they get their casting stat, and maybe a moderate Constitution. So 2-3.5 out of 9.

A Rogue, meanwhile, wants Guile (for the traditional Rogue), Dexterity, Adroitness, Charisma, and can't afford to dump Strength or Constitution. He also wants Wisdom to be able to be aware of things. That's 5-7 out of 9.

------------------------

Now don't get me wrong -- I like the intent behind this. But I'd argue your divisions aren't in the right places.

We have three stats that any non-magical character cares about -- Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Some non-magical classes also care about 2-3 of the others. We have one stat that magical characters card about -- their casting stat. Sometimes they care about Dexterity and/or Constitution.

So what we need to do, instead of increasing the burden on non-casters and casters alike, is even the playing field a little. Perhaps we introduce the stats "Arcana" and "Spirit," which serve to set the DCs of your Arcane and/or Divine spells, with the Paladin getting a feature that lets him use his Spirit and Wisdom interchangeably. Suddenly we've given all casters more stats to worry about, but haven't increased the burden on most non-casters much.

Again, that's a rather poorly conceived idea for example direction only, but I do think it proves the point -- simply adding more stats doesn't really fix the main issue here. But the issue COULD, I feel, be fixed in part by making sure that you add those stats in the right places, targetting the right systems.


I'm not sure if I agree casters make out the best here. They no longer get the skill point bonuses of Int, and the free will save bonuses of Wisdom, so if they want to invest in those they will want to put points in them or waste spell lots boosting them. So two of the powers that Casters got basically for free are not cut off. And with social skills being a bigger part of the game, casters lack of access to them

Now for the rogue, in earlier editions they needed Dex, Int, and Wisdom to be good, and it might behoove them to go into Charisma (I would argue that Strength and Con shouldn't be terrible but they aren't strictly necessary). In my game its the same but swap swap Int for Adroitness and Charisma for Guile. So its the same MAD situation where we started. But it gives some Mad to full casters. A wizard needs only Dex and Int, and maybe Wisdom. Now they need Dex, Int, Adroitness, and likely Spirit (since it covers concentration) to get the same level of power they got in normal Pathfinder/3.5 And since social skills matter more here, Wizards will be hurt by a weak Charisma/Guile choices much more.

To use another example, poor monks need Strength, Dex, Con, and Wisdom, while in my game they need Strength, Dex, Con and Spirit. Actually not quite cause in my games i allow them to replace strength with Spirit for a lot, but just using the stats it leaves monk basically as screwed over as they started.

The issue with what you propose of like an "Arcana" or "Faith" stat is that for anybody who wasn't a caster, those would be useless, and I really want to move away from the notion that stats are literally useless to some classes. Sure a Fighter doesn't need a high int, but if you had a magic item that gave you a +4 to it, the Fighter would still find it useful. But if it was Arcana, the fighter wouldn't even care. Also I don't know if Arcan would look like for roleplaying, I mean a character with a Low Wisdom or High Charisma that effects their personality, don't know what Arcana would do.

So I agree with you that redoing stats aren't a magic bullet that fixes balance, since the Balance problems in D&D are too deep to get solved with one solution, in fact I would argue that completely solving them isn't even a worthwhile goal, but think that in conjunction with skills, it helps, in some small way it helps. As you noted before, the is a larger system behind this, and these are just two small parts of that system, but even with all of my changes, CoDzilla still reigns supreme, and I'm kinda ok with that, just as long as the gap between them and everybody else is smaller and everybody can contribute. I consider my balance design goal to be make everybody between Tier 4 and Tier 2.

I don't want to sound like i'm shutting your down though, what would you want for splitting up stats so that Casters get hurt more than non casters.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not sure if I agree casters make out the best here. They no longer get the skill point bonuses of Int, and the free will save bonuses of Wisdom, so if they want to invest in those they will want to put points in them or waste spell lots boosting them. So two of the powers that Casters got basically for free are not cut off. And with social skills being a bigger part of the game, casters lack of access to them

But spells that buff stats/skills more than make up for that, and casters have numerous ways to simply not be targeted by effects. Having a weaker Will save is great, but, frankly, a lot of Wizards get by on just their innate high bonus and don't care about Wisdom much. A lot of Casters also don't care about skills much -- they're a nice bonus, but frankly Clerics often just have their core skills and are fine with that. Wizards often don't USE their skills. So those are losses, but they are minimal losses to skilled players (and bigger losses to worst caster-players -- the group that doesn't need the nerf as much).


In my game its the same but swap swap Int for Adroitness and Charisma for Guile. So its the same MAD situation where we started. But it gives some Mad to full casters. A wizard needs only Dex and Int, and maybe Wisdom. Now they need Dex, Int, Adroitness, and likely Spirit (since it covers concentration) to get the same level of power they got in normal Pathfinder/3.5 And since social skills matter more here, Wizards will be hurt by a weak Charisma/Guile choices much more.

Charm Person, Glibness, Dominate Person, etc make up for a lot of lost social skills. But modern casters often don't care about skills or Constitution (save as hit points), so they probably will also not care much about Adroitness or Spirit. Sure, they're NICE, but they're not worth giving up primary stat for.


The issue with what you propose of like an "Arcana" or "Faith" stat is that for anybody who wasn't a caster, those would be useless, and I really want to move away from the notion that stats are literally useless to some classes. Sure a Fighter doesn't need a high int, but if you had a magic item that gave you a +4 to it, the Fighter would still find it useful. But if it was Arcana, the fighter wouldn't even care. Also I don't know if Arcan would look like for roleplaying, I mean a character with a Low Wisdom or High Charisma that effects their personality, don't know what Arcana would do.

Yep. Hence why I admitted it was a bad SOLUTION, but it was an example of targeted stats. :smalltongue:


CoDzilla still reigns supreme, and I'm kinda ok with that, just as long as the gap between them and everybody else is smaller and everybody can contribute. I consider my balance design goal to be make everybody between Tier 4 and Tier 2.

This doesn't do that at all though. It nerfs CoDzilla in the last meaningful of ways, and hurts non-CoDzilla casters more, since those players aren't as good as avoiding situations where they're forced to rely on their skills and saves.


I don't want to sound like i'm shutting your down though, what would you want for splitting up stats so that Casters get hurt more than non casters.

A good starting goal is separating the Spells Known/Spells Per Day stat from the Spell DC stat. Almost every other type of class in the game has at least 2 primary stats, while casters get 1. If suddenly Wizards need Intelligence and Wisdom and like Dexterity and Constitution, you have them much more closely aligned to, say, Fighters. Another goal is taking more MAD classes like the Paladin, Monk, and Rogue and letting them combine common features -- a Rogue that can apply Dexterity instead of Strength to damage with light weapons and ranged weapons, for example, now just needs Dex / Int / Cha and maybe Con. Same with a Barbarian who can apply Strength to Intimidate checks, and maybe has a AC made of 10 + Con Modifier + Armor when raging. As for the Monk? Perhaps he can use Wisdom in place of Constitution for several purposes, and in place of Strength for other purposes, making those stats USEFUL but no longer mandatory. Maybe the Paladin's spells are based on Charisma like his other class features.

That sort of adjustment will do far more than making other stats since, no matter how you spread those stats around, you haven't fixed the core issue -- a Wizard with a stat array of 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 18 is still not only playable, but is actually going to be STRONGER THAN MOST NON-CASTERS in skilled hands. That can't be said of any non-caster class in the game.

[nonsi]

I don't want to sound like i'm shutting your down though, what would you want for splitting up stats so that Casters get hurt more than non casters.



May I ?...


For all spellcasters:
- Int-bonus determines bonus spells known (uses the PHB table that specifies extra spells-per-day, with high-Int also granting extra known 0-level spells)
- Wis-bonus determines SR penetration
- Cha-bonus determines spell DC.

Each spellcaster would still determine access to SLs based on a single stat.
I'd suggest changing the Cleric's primary spellcasting stat to Charisma, since - thematically speaking - their power should stem from the conviction of their belief, not insight/intuition. It also synergises better with Turn Undead being Cha-based.

Also, no more bonus spells per day based on primary spellcasting stat (28 is a realistic score at high levels, so that could mean 15 daily spells less).


I believe the above solution will:
1. Forever kill fullcasters' SADness.
2. Provide greater versatility to those who need it and have little to no effect for those that don't.
3. Reduce daily spell output a bit, to force spellcasters to conserve a bit more and less frequently go NOVA.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

For all spellcasters:
- Int-bonus determines bonus spells known (uses the PHB table that specifies extra spells-per-day, with high-Int also granting extra known 0-level spells)
- Wis-bonus determines SR penetration
- Cha-bonus determines spell DC.

I'm a little wary of this, just because casters still do like Dexterity and Constitution. Hence my suggestion of making each caster dependent on two scores. Probably one for Spells Known / Spell Penetration / Bonus Spells (if you do bonus spells), and another for Spell DC.

It also lets you put a little more variety in casters (rather than have all casters have the same stat allotment), and lets you combine them into a single score for hybrid casters.

Note that, if you DO go with a system like nonsi's, I'd recommend lessening the score requirement for spells from 10+spell level to 10+1/2 spell level, rounded up. That lessens the need for super high scores, and might encourage a more well-rounded approach (with the highest almost certainly being your Save-DC-setting ability score).

[Straybow]

Splitting stats just makes the MAD problem worse. You still end up needing multiple ability scores to be good at X. It just makes you suck more at Y once you've structured to be good at X, instead of having synergistic benefits.

Other problems with the proposal:
Wisdom as the will and perception stat is a very good model. Splitting Wis into two stats isn't fixing anything that's broken.

Lots of people know that the "right thing" is, but not everyone does it. Just look at one little example: savings. Everybody knows that saving for emergencies and retirement is really important, but how many of us actually do it? How many people sacrifice what they could buy today for what they might need in future years?

Wisdom is not just knowing something, it is taking the hypothetical and making it reality. It requires great willpower to be actually wise, and not just an empty guru saying cool things.

Perception and deduction is also a part of wisdom. You can't be wise if you are unobservant. You notice that they're saying X, but not saying Y, and Y is more important than X if the goal is Z. You notice that they're doing X, and they wouldn't do X unless they also were trying to accomplish Y.

One problem is that DnD has lumped other things into perception. Finding a hidden passage? That's a function of knowing what to look for: scrapes on the floor, using smoke to reveal air movement through an unseen crack, etc. Stat-based perception would only help you if you don't know what to look for and it's your brain making connections subconsciously.

In that realm, Int is the abstract domain (such as mathematics) and Wis is the concrete domain. A Sherlock Holmes has both in supreme measure, not just one or the other.

If Dex seems overpowered, it isn't because you need another stat. It is because the combat physics have been over-abstracted. Dex bonus is the equivalent to wearing armor, which is just nonsensical. Dex may affect whether you are hit, but armor affects what happens after you are hit.

If you want to rethink DnD, that's the area to fix rather than splitting Dex.

Skills are also an area that needs to be fixed. Just because someone tries to do something doesn't mean it works. In England, there were laws requiring weekly archery practice on the books until the Victorian age, and some schools still required all the boys to practice. This did not actually produce people who were good at archery. Many kids just never got measurably better. In America, many kids are pressed to take music lessons. It serves to weed out the ones who just have no talent at all, and no amount of practice changes that.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Splitting stats just makes the MAD problem worse. You still end up needing multiple ability scores to be good at X. It just makes you suck more at Y once you've structured to be good at X, instead of having synergistic benefits.

Basically, yes.


Skills are also an area that needs to be fixed. Just because someone tries to do something doesn't mean it works. In England, there were laws requiring weekly archery practice on the books until the Victorian age, and some schools still required all the boys to practice. This did not actually produce people who were good at archery. Many kids just never got measurably better. In America, many kids are pressed to take music lessons. It serves to weed out the ones who just have no talent at all, and no amount of practice changes that.

I mean, skills could use some brushing up, sure. But that's different from your second point -- ranks in a skill are supposed to show that you ARE good at that. At least moreso than the average Commoner. So if you have 10 ranks of Perform (Piano) you're actually a damn good Piano player, even if that's less than your past-Olympic-level climbing skill of 20, and less than the maestro-level Bard's Perform (Piano) skill of 20.