Help me optimize a Sorcerer 17/ Warlock 3

[maxwell_wolfen]

Hi to you all! i am building a new char in my campaign and i want to make an OP classic Sorlock build.

Our DM allows any content (not unofficial homebrew) but allows UA and SCAG.

We all begin at 13 level .
i am about to choose half-elf or tiefling (though drow is very fancy as well).
array is standard 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
i was about to make a sorc 10/ warlock 3 as i have read that his alpha strike capabilities surpass other classes. But i cant completely understand why it may be better than a pure sorcerer. Yes i know that Quickened Eldrich Blasts and such wreak havoc on single targeted enemies, but i hear about the same thing with a firebolt, a scorching ray etc. Also Which sorcerer origigs and warlock patrons synergy the best? i must say that i plan on making a very optimizing character and we also plan on playing through 20, so 9 level spells are essential.

also in terms of alpha striking....is the combination sor 17/wlc3 better than sor 18/wlc 2???

i thank you all for your time.

[Dalebert]

You probably want the +cha and pushback EB so you can deal crazy dmg and push people into your ongoing AoE stuph. I made a 17/3 drow. I went with fire for my main dmg--twinned Hex and twinned firebolts instead of EB. Took Disguise Self at will and Tome with ritual casting to broaden out my utility spells. It was a versatility over optimized choice. I already got +cha to fire spells from sorcerer so I decided to just run with that. He's just okay on dmg actually. I decided to go with crowd control and buffing more than just being a damage dealer. Lucked out and got a Staff of Fire that compliments the build nicely.

[Spiritchaser]

If it's on the menu, and fits a concept you like, possibly consider yuan ti as a race... I don't want to sell half elf short, it's a complete package... But If you start sorc for con save you'll be vulnerable to dex saves and most/some wis saves

Yuan ti pureblood is much stronger there

If you want a super creepy capstone consider warlock2 shadow 18. Being an insustantial cloud of death that walks through walls...

[maxwell_wolfen]

You probably want the +cha and pushback EB so you can deal crazy dmg and push people into your ongoing AoE stuph. I made a 17/3 drow. I went with fire for my main dmg--twinned Hex and twinned firebolts instead of EB. Took Disguise Self at will and Tome with ritual casting to broaden out my utility spells. It was a versatility over optimized choice. I already got +cha to fire spells from sorcerer so I decided to just run with that. He's just okay on dmg actually. I decided to go with crowd control and buffing more than just being a damage dealer. Lucked out and got a Staff of Fire that compliments the build nicely.

but firebolt while its good, isnt anywhere near a quickened, hex, agonizing blast EB. If i want a firebolt with +cha i would go full sorcerer. the whole reason for the warlock dip is for the EB.

[maxwell_wolfen]

If it's on the menu, and fits a concept you like, possibly consider yuan ti as a race... I don't want to sell half elf short, it's a complete package... But If you start sorc for con save you'll be vulnerable to dex saves and most/some wis saves

Yuan ti pureblood is much stronger there

If you want a super creepy capstone consider warlock2 shadow 18. Being an insustantial cloud of death that walks through walls...

while the capstone is quite nice and flavorful, as of optimizing its not anything special. I look to optimize damage with EB or any other spell, so that i can effectively nuke others. Thats the point of Sorlock. But surely being incorporeal for a while can be nice, and its better than the other capstone abilities

[Spiritchaser]

while the capstone is quite nice and flavorful, as of optimizing its not anything special. I look to optimize damage with EB or any other spell, so that i can effectively nuke others. Thats the point of Sorlock. But surely being incorporeal for a while can be nice, and its better than the other capstone abilities

All you actually need to optimize EB is agonizing blast, possibly (probably) repelling blast, and lots of sorcery points to quicken them. That, and that alone covers off single target damage, which means you can optimize your build for control or buffing with those precious spells known, and be really good at two things your opponent wont be able to handle at all. Possibly three. Edit: you also want Hex, though other concentration buffs may make more sense from time to time.

You'll still have room for a feat, which could be lots of things, and yes it could be crossbow expert...

[maxwell_wolfen]

All you actually need to optimize EB is agonizing blast, possibly (probably) repelling blast, and lots of sorcery points to quicken them. That, and that alone covers off single target damage, which means you can optimize your build for control or buffing with those precious spells known, and be really good at two things your opponent wont be able to handle at all. Possibly three. Edit: you also want Hex, though other concentration buffs may make more sense from time to time.

You'll still have room for a feat, which could be lots of things, and yes it could be crossbow expert...

i was wondering if its better for 2 levels of warlock...probably magic initiate for taking hex there as your 1st level spell so that you can take something else from your warlock list.

i would probably optimize for control rarther than buff. having great nuking ability combined with control sounds great.

and yes i have heard that crossbow expert covers spells as well

[Citan]

Hi to you all! i am building a new char in my campaign and i want to make an OP classic Sorlock build.

Our DM allows any content (not unofficial homebrew) but allows UA and SCAG.

We all begin at 13 level .
i am about to choose half-elf or tiefling (though drow is very fancy as well).
array is standard 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
i was about to make a sorc 10/ warlock 3 as i have read that his alpha strike capabilities surpass other classes. But i cant completely understand why it may be better than a pure sorcerer. Yes i know that Quickened Eldrich Blasts and such wreak havoc on single targeted enemies, but i hear about the same thing with a firebolt, a scorching ray etc. Also Which sorcerer origigs and warlock patrons synergy the best? i must say that i plan on making a very optimizing character and we also plan on playing through 20, so 9 level spells are essential.

also in terms of alpha striking....is the combination sor 17/wlc3 better than sor 18/wlc 2???

i thank you all for your time.
Hi!
First of, let's take something out of the way: for alpha strikes, a true optimized build would include 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surge. :smallbiggrin:

Now...
"Optimizing" Eldricht Blast is done by level 4 (5 for über optimization): take Repelling Blast, Agonizing Blast, Spell Sniper (and Eldricht Spear).
As Sorcerer, take Quicken (and Distant Metamagic if you want some overkill). You are set. Enjoy.

Now you can remember you will be a friggin Sorcerer the most of time. So ask yourself: "what are allowed options?" "What do I want to play with the most, save or suck, buffs or blasting? "Do I want to use weapon cantrips or not at all?"

For save or suck, by far the best is Shadow Sorcerer, followed by Wild Magic. Any Warlock will do, consider Fiend because it's solid with Eldricht Blast.

For Blasting, Shadow / Wild Magic (for AOE) or Draconic (to focus on one damage type) are the best. Any Warlock will do, although Undyling Light provides +CHA on fire and radiant (so you could also pick Draconic on another type, making you powerful on three different types).

For melee cantrips, one choice only: Draconic (fire) Sorcerer + Undying Light Warlock: +10 on any fire cantrip, including Green Flame Blade. ;)

Enjoy!

[Spiritchaser]

Optimising for melee cantrips, consider undying light 2+, favoured soul (forge) x

Switch out hex for up cast elemental weapon
+2 or even +3 to hit can be a big deal and the raw damage can be comparable

That said, if you've got eldritch blast and crossbow expert... Do you need melee cantrips?

Edit: style notwithstanding of course

[maxwell_wolfen]

Hi!
First of, let's take something out of the way: for alpha strikes, a true optimized build would include 2 levels of Fighter for Action Surge. :smallbiggrin:

Now...
"Optimizing" Eldricht Blast is done by level 4 (5 for über optimization): take Repelling Blast, Agonizing Blast, Spell Sniper (and Eldricht Spear).
As Sorcerer, take Quicken (and Distant Metamagic if you want some overkill). You are set. Enjoy.

Now you can remember you will be a friggin Sorcerer the most of time. So ask yourself: "what are allowed options?" "What do I want to play with the most, save or suck, buffs or blasting? "Do I want to use weapon cantrips or not at all?"

For save or suck, by far the best is Shadow Sorcerer, followed by Wild Magic. Any Warlock will do, consider Fiend because it's solid with Eldricht Blast.

For Blasting, Shadow / Wild Magic (for AOE) or Draconic (to focus on one damage type) are the best. Any Warlock will do, although Undyling Light provides +CHA on fire and radiant (so you could also pick Draconic on another type, making you powerful on three different types).

For melee cantrips, one choice only: Draconic (fire) Sorcerer + Undying Light Warlock: +10 on any fire cantrip, including Green Flame Blade. ;)

Enjoy!

i am at a loss a bit. The undying light gives +CHA to eldrich blast? if so that stacks with agonizing blast? if it can then its truly solid. But can you explain why the other stats of shadow sorcerer are great? assuming we lose the capstone ability of being incorporeal.

Also fighter sounds good but you lose way more sorcerer progression, not to mention you will never take 9th spells.

[Spiritchaser]

Undying light gives a bonus to fire and radiant only I'm afraid. That said it is still very strong, particularly for a build which focuses on green flame blade, which probably isn't super relevant here, but melee is fun, so...

As for fighter, is burst from action surge worth a 9th level slot?

Only you can decide for you. Myself I'd say no.

[Citan]

i am at a loss a bit. The undying light gives +CHA to eldrich blast? if so that stacks with agonizing blast? if it can then its truly solid. But can you explain why the other stats of shadow sorcerer are great? assuming we lose the capstone ability of being incorporeal.

Also fighter sounds good but you lose way more sorcerer progression, not to mention you will never take 9th spells.
Nop, I'm sorry if I was not clear. ;)

Undying Light does not provide further bonus to Eldricht Blast. It DOES provide bonus damage to any fire and radiant spell.
Which can stack with Draconic bonus damage on any spell dealing damage of a type you choose.
Since cantrips are technically spells, you get +CHA (Undying Light) and +CHA (Draconic) on any fire dealing cantrip, which makes a build based solely on using Green Flame Blade very viable.
So if you chose this combination, you would have, both at the same time, the arguably best single melee attack of the game (barring Rogue Sneak Attack), and arguably the best ranged cantrip of the game (Agonizing Repelling Blast).

As for the dip in Fighter, I wasn't actually suggesting it strongly. Because I prefer builds pushing on sustained damage then nova.
I was just stressing that if your goal was alpha striking encounters, then Action Surge was a strict requirement, because it makes avaible, in one turn, two full Eldricht Blast stacked with Hex.
That this is worth losing 9th spell is another matter entirely, a assessment one has to make for oneself. ;)

[maxwell_wolfen]

Nop, I'm sorry if I was not clear. ;)

Undying Light does not provide further bonus to Eldricht Blast. It DOES provide bonus damage to any fire and radiant spell.
Which can stack with Draconic bonus damage on any spell dealing damage of a type you choose.
Since cantrips are technically spells, you get +CHA (Undying Light) and +CHA (Draconic) on any fire dealing cantrip, which makes a build based solely on using Green Flame Blade very viable.
So if you chose this combination, you would have, both at the same time, the arguably best single melee attack of the game (barring Rogue Sneak Attack), and arguably the best ranged cantrip of the game (Agonizing Repelling Blast).

As for the dip in Fighter, I wasn't actually suggesting it strongly. Because I prefer builds pushing on sustained damage then nova.
I was just stressing that if your goal was alpha striking encounters, then Action Surge was a strict requirement, because it makes avaible, in one turn, two full Eldricht Blast stacked with Hex.
That this is worth losing 9th spell is another matter entirely, a assessment one has to make for oneself. ;)


greenflame blade will work on a sorcerer/warlock build? yeah i am ok in damage but attack? and my hitpoints are mediocre. though i understand it sounds very neat.but as a sorcerer i am not much of a melee combatant. ranged EB sounds much more viable.
so you recommend dragon sorcerer and undying light? how many warlock levels? 2 or 3?

[maxwell_wolfen]

Undying light gives a bonus to fire and radiant only I'm afraid. That said it is still very strong, particularly for a build which focuses on green flame blade, which probably isn't super relevant here, but melee is fun, so...

As for fighter, is burst from action surge worth a 9th level slot?

Only you can decide for you. Myself I'd say no.

well if i can have both EB cheese and greenflame blade i am ok. but i have my doubts even if its great in damage how much good of a "fighter" i will be.

[Dalebert]

but firebolt while its good, isnt anywhere near a quickened, hex, agonizing blast EB. If i want a firebolt with +cha i would go full sorcerer. the whole reason for the warlock dip is for the EB.

I'm not sure what you're arguing with. This is essentially what I said. If you re-read my post I think you will see that. It's a nice combo but I didn't want to pay the invocation tax for it.

Quickened EB is not necessarily the main reason to go sorlock though a good one. Probably the best synergy comes from being able to create spell slots up to 5th level using slots that recharge with a short rest. That was my main motivation with a little versatility for icing. If you're playing a class that doesn't need to sleep you can opt for 5 short rests while the party long rests and make extra spell slots for later--one 4-hour rest to meditate and four 1-hour rests.

[Citan]

greenflame blade will work on a sorcerer/warlock build? yeah i am ok in damage but attack? and my hitpoints are mediocre. though i understand it sounds very neat.but as a sorcerer i am not much of a melee combatant. ranged EB sounds much more viable.
so you recommend dragon sorcerer and undying light? how many warlock levels? 2 or 3?
Yes, you are right. If you want to use weapon cantrips extensively, you would have to invest quite a bit more to ensure you can take the heat (pun intended ;)): either a level in a martial for armor proficiencies, or Mobile feat to disengage from the enemy you attacked...

I was just suggesting this, not as "my main schtick", but as "my alternative schtick" because I may be in melee, or because I just want to be versatile.

If you really intend to stay mid/far range and just use Eldricht Blast, forget about this, and weapon cantrips in general. Better just have a Shocking Grasp ready.
And choose other Sorcerer / Warlock archetypes.

As for Warlock levels, well, just compare Sorcerer's 18th level feature for your chosen archetype with each of the Pacts, and choose whatever you prefer. 3rd level is strictly NOT necessary for your build, but you may find the goodies interesting enough to take it anyways ("for example", the Tome Pact that allows you to rely solely on CHA for spells and weapon attacks, and learn rituals, or Chain to gain magic resistance as long as you keep your familiar close).
It's really a matter of your own taste here. ;) Just know that there are no bad decisions.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Yes, you are right. If you want to use weapon cantrips extensively, you would have to invest quite a bit more to ensure you can take the heat (pun intended ;)): either a level in a martial for armor proficiencies, or Mobile feat to disengage from the enemy you attacked...

I was just suggesting this, not as "my main schtick", but as "my alternative schtick" because I may be in melee, or because I just want to be versatile.

If you really intend to stay mid/far range and just use Eldricht Blast, forget about this, and weapon cantrips in general. Better just have a Shocking Grasp ready.
And choose other Sorcerer / Warlock archetypes.

As for Warlock levels, well, just compare Sorcerer's 18th level feature for your chosen archetype with each of the Pacts, and choose whatever you prefer. 3rd level is strictly NOT necessary for your build, but you may find the goodies interesting enough to take it anyways ("for example", the Tome Pact that allows you to rely solely on CHA for spells and weapon attacks, and learn rituals, or Chain to gain magic resistance as long as you keep your familiar close).
It's really a matter of your own taste here. ;) Just know that there are no bad decisions.


thanks for the help Citan! In conclusion Dragon sorcerer and Undying Light is the way to go. As for spells i ll choose those for blasting and/or controlling. As for feats the sniper spell is necessary. Should i invest in magic initiate? There are no other synergies for EB right?

[CaptainSarathai]

If all you're taking Warlock for is the Eldritch Blast, then you only need 2 levels of it. Boom, easy, done.
3 levels of Warlock doesn't even really get you much, some Cantrips maybe (Tome), a Familiar (Chain) or a funny sword (Blade).

Also, Undying Light and Draconic is good if you're planning to bust out lots of Fire damage. EB is not Fire Damage, so you don't even really need to get EB or its attendant goodies.

If you are taking more levels in Warlock, for the better recharge slots, then I would consider going with the Fire stuff, and also contemplate taking Warlock as your primary and going hard in for melee. You can do some ugly things with a GFB-spamming Warlock. BladeLocks get +3xCha per hit like that. If you're worried about hitting, go Tome instead and steal Shillelagh for Cha as your primary Attack Stat.
Survival is an issue somewhat. Remember that you essentially have D8s for hit dice, like a Rogue, but also have False Life and Armor of Agathys for TempHp, and can cast Darkness with Devil's Sight if you want to put everyone at Disadvantage against you.

[ApplePen]

I've actually been toying with a Cleric/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock build that ends up getting STR/WIS/CHA/CHA to greenflame blade, which it can use 4 times in a round, and gets an attack on top.

It's kind of silly but funny just the same.

[maxwell_wolfen]

If all you're taking Warlock for is the Eldritch Blast, then you only need 2 levels of it. Boom, easy, done.
3 levels of Warlock doesn't even really get you much, some Cantrips maybe (Tome), a Familiar (Chain) or a funny sword (Blade).

Also, Undying Light and Draconic is good if you're planning to bust out lots of Fire damage. EB is not Fire Damage, so you don't even really need to get EB or its attendant goodies.

If you are taking more levels in Warlock, for the better recharge slots, then I would consider going with the Fire stuff, and also contemplate taking Warlock as your primary and going hard in for melee. You can do some ugly things with a GFB-spamming Warlock. BladeLocks get +3xCha per hit like that. If you're worried about hitting, go Tome instead and steal Shillelagh for Cha as your primary Attack Stat.
Survival is an issue somewhat. Remember that you essentially have D8s for hit dice, like a Rogue, but also have False Life and Armor of Agathys for TempHp, and can cast Darkness with Devil's Sight if you want to put everyone at Disadvantage against you.

yes, the whole reason is to burn 2 2level slots that warlock 3 gives you for..4 sorcerer points. yes its not huge but sth. if i take 2 levels warlock i just spam 2 slots per rest and use them for only 2 sorcery points (since they are 1st level slots). But in the end,,,if you are high level (we begin at 13th level) you already have many sorcery points and another 4 per short rest isnt anything gamebreaking...its just 2 quickened EB's. Whereas you can spam 10+ EB's and maybe more at that level.

I m not into melee with GFB. While it seems great, i always thought of my character as a nuker, fire, EB's and DPS. I leave melee to those who can survive up in the front lines.

[Citan]

If all you're taking Warlock for is the Eldritch Blast, then you only need 2 levels of it. Boom, easy, done.
3 levels of Warlock doesn't even really get you much, some Cantrips maybe (Tome), a Familiar (Chain) or a funny sword (Blade).

Agreed on first sentence, strongly disagree about the second.
It's a matter of taste and projection.
I feel that if you have a good chance of reaching 18th Sorcerer, it may be worth it capping Warlock at 2.
But if you think you'll never get there, or this feature does not interest you that much, then 3rd level is providing very strong benefits.

2nd level short-rest means better Sorcery points or reliable Mirror Image / Blur for defense. Tome, if you are ready to sacrifice the Repelling aspect of EB, provides a great bunch of useful rituals (although you don't get some of the greatest such as Leomund's Tiny Hut or Create Food and Water which would require Warlock 5). Beyond that, you get three more cantrips among a great selection.

Magic resistance from a Chain Familiar is always great to have, because you will necessarily suffer from spells even if you are not on the frontline.
Those are not an easy choice, because it delays even more Sorcerer progression, but can be seriously considered if taken early enough to get mileage.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Agreed on first sentence, strongly disagree about the second.
It's a matter of taste and projection.
I feel that if you have a good chance of reaching 18th Sorcerer, it may be worth it capping Warlock at 2.
But if you think you'll never get there, or this feature does not interest you that much, then 3rd level is providing very strong benefits.

2nd level short-rest means better Sorcery points or reliable Mirror Image / Blur for defense. Tome, if you are ready to sacrifice the Repelling aspect of EB, provides a great bunch of useful rituals (although you don't get some of the greatest such as Leomund's Tiny Hut or Create Food and Water which would require Warlock 5). Beyond that, you get three more cantrips among a great selection.

Magic resistance from a Chain Familiar is always great to have, because you will necessarily suffer from spells even if you are not on the frontline.
Those are not an easy choice, because it delays even more Sorcerer progression, but can be seriously considered if taken early enough to get mileage.

citan can you recommend a few spells for a warlock 2/sorcerer X build? always for blasting with dual +5 cha (fire) and a few good save or suck spells

[Citan]

citan can you recommend a few spells for a warlock 2/sorcerer X build? always for blasting with dual +5 cha (fire) and a few good save or suck spells

Hey ;)

Well, let's take a quick review of each "category".

Blasting
Chromatic Orb: can be a good choice thanks to its versatility, but will be usually inferior to your cantrip at higher level. Especially since you have Eldricht Blast, which should be almost never resisted. So tasteful, less useful. ;)
Scorching Ray: IF your DM agrees to rule as "bonus on each roll" it's your best spell. Otherwise don't even bother.
Fireball is the obvious.
Aganazz's Scorcher is a nice alternative, but you can prefer Lighting Bolt (so you don't rely solely on fire damage).
Cone of Cold obviously.

Defensive
Shield is mandatory.
Mirror Image is great if you have at least 18 DEX, otherwise better use Blur. It's still good to have later as a non-concentration spell, if you don't use spells such as Greater Invisibility.

Haste is a poor choice for you, but twinned Haste on warrior pals is awesome.
Greater Invisibility is good for anyone.

Save or Suck
Blindness is a given: can properly disable most martials, severely hamper casters, is non-concentration, can be upcast or twinned to affect several targets. Even if it won't usually last many turns, because it's a Constitution save, it's still very solid.
Bestow Curse is your bread and butter for a debuff: can impose disadvantage on saves, can be non-concentration if cast at a higher level, can be Heightened, Extended or Twinned. BUT (there is always a but, sadly... or not), it's a "touch" range. So either risk it, use Distant spell, or get a familiar one way or another.
Slow is somewhat random, but can wreak havoc among enemy lines. And because it affects up to 6 enemies and targets Wisdom, fair chance is you will affect at least 1 or 2, making it worth it. If you want one particular enemy to fail, you can always use Heightened.
Web and Stinking Cloud used together with Careful can also create a big win button, letting your allies act freely while disabling your enemies.

But, you know, we could also dissert on Hold Person, Suggestion, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Confusion, etc etc...

TBH, I'm too lazy to go in detail in each and any.
My advise: pick your spells while taking into account...

- First of all, what you usually find fun (you're here for that after all)

- Second, your choice of Metamagic: Careful synergizes most with AOE spells (damage/debuff), Twin and Heightened are great on single-target debuff, Empowered is wonder on AOE, Distant (stay at safe range), Quicken (no need to explain) and Subtle (never be Counterspelled at the critical time, or manipulate things without anyone knowing) are overall useful.

- Third, your party: if you have 2 or more martials, even a one-turn Hold Person/Monster can mean the world in a tough encounter. If you befriend a Bard of Wizard that likes to cast "mental" debuffs, then a (possibly Heightened) Bestow Curse may be a very fair investment to ensure your pal's 6th level or greater spell succeeds.

- Fourth, your balance: try to get at least one spell targeting each stat, to maximize the chances of not wasting a slot. Better having a "good but not best for the situation" rider applied, than "the best rider for the situation" failing. ;)

[maxwell_wolfen]

Hey ;)

Well, let's take a quick review of each "category".

Blasting
Chromatic Orb: can be a good choice thanks to its versatility, but will be usually inferior to your cantrip at higher level. Especially since you have Eldricht Blast, which should be almost never resisted. So tasteful, less useful. ;)
Scorching Ray: IF your DM agrees to rule as "bonus on each roll" it's your best spell. Otherwise don't even bother.
Fireball is the obvious.
Aganazz's Scorcher is a nice alternative, but you can prefer Lighting Bolt (so you don't rely solely on fire damage).
Cone of Cold obviously.

Defensive
Shield is mandatory.
Mirror Image is great if you have at least 18 DEX, otherwise better use Blur. It's still good to have later as a non-concentration spell, if you don't use spells such as Greater Invisibility.

Haste is a poor choice for you, but twinned Haste on warrior pals is awesome.
Greater Invisibility is good for anyone.

Save or Suck
Blindness is a given: can properly disable most martials, severely hamper casters, is non-concentration, can be upcast or twinned to affect several targets. Even if it won't usually last many turns, because it's a Constitution save, it's still very solid.
Bestow Curse is your bread and butter for a debuff: can impose disadvantage on saves, can be non-concentration if cast at a higher level, can be Heightened, Extended or Twinned. BUT (there is always a but, sadly... or not), it's a "touch" range. So either risk it, use Distant spell, or get a familiar one way or another.
Slow is somewhat random, but can wreak havoc among enemy lines. And because it affects up to 6 enemies and targets Wisdom, fair chance is you will affect at least 1 or 2, making it worth it. If you want one particular enemy to fail, you can always use Heightened.
Web and Stinking Cloud used together with Careful can also create a big win button, letting your allies act freely while disabling your enemies.

But, you know, we could also dissert on Hold Person, Suggestion, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Confusion, etc etc...

TBH, I'm too lazy to go in detail in each and any.
My advise: pick your spells while taking into account...

- First of all, what you usually find fun (you're here for that after all)

- Second, your choice of Metamagic: Careful synergizes most with AOE spells (damage/debuff), Twin and Heightened are great on single-target debuff, Empowered is wonder on AOE, Distant (stay at safe range), Quicken (no need to explain) and Subtle (never be Counterspelled at the critical time, or manipulate things without anyone knowing) are overall useful.

- Third, your party: if you have 2 or more martials, even a one-turn Hold Person/Monster can mean the world in a tough encounter. If you befriend a Bard of Wizard that likes to cast "mental" debuffs, then a (possibly Heightened) Bestow Curse may be a very fair investment to ensure your pal's 6th level or greater spell succeeds.

- Fourth, your balance: try to get at least one spell targeting each stat, to maximize the chances of not wasting a slot. Better having a "good but not best for the situation" rider applied, than "the best rider for the situation" failing. ;)

wow! thanks Citan! i chose heightened and quicken (for EB) so a few save or suck will go greatly with Heightened. Next metamagic (unfortunately comes late) may be distant from what i see. but i like the prospect of empowered AOE too.. But for Defensive spells only Blur? damn... i have 14 dex on a 13th level build.

[CursedRhubarb]

If going the Draconic/Unifying route, the Elemental Adept feat is worth a look. It will let you ignore fire resistance and the lowest you can roll on a damage die for a fire spell will be a 2. With EB doing force damage as your main cantrip and fire damage spells for your secondary damage type it will help keep your fire damage up a bit more.

I'd also recommend going for the 3rd warlock level for your pact boon. Sounds like you don't plan to be in melee much so blade can be skipped, but the other two have some nice uses.

Chain let's you get a powerful familiar. My favorite is the imp for the magic resistance, it's invisibility, it can shape change without having to cast the find familiar spell and cost you 10gp each time it changes, can attack if needed, it can talk and is smart so you can scout with it without having to rely on blinding your senses to scout through it, and no limit on distance for communication with it while on the same plane so you aren't limited to 100 feet.

Tome gets you 3 cantrips from ANY spell list and they will count as warlock spells, thus use Cha. Getting Guidance can be fun and there are more that are useful. Grab something off your spell lists, or grab ones on your list that you didn't have room for.

Snag Shillelagh and GFB for a melee backup for those times things get close and personal. I call this The Cuban since Shillelagh/Draconic-Fire/Undying makes your melee do 1d8+Xd8+Cha+Cha+Cha, not counting if hex is on or the free Xd8+Cha+Cha if they have a buddy next to them. Not a bad flaming-middle-finger to any who dare get close. Quicken one to spank them twice and you should be clear, or pretty darn close, to blast away at the far enemies again.

The invocations for Chain or Tome can be very nice but they aren't necessary. Keeping the EB ones works very well.

[maxwell_wolfen]

If going the Draconic/Unifying route, the Elemental Adept feat is worth a look. It will let you ignore fire resistance and the lowest you can roll on a damage die for a fire spell will be a 2. With EB doing force damage as your main cantrip and fire damage spells for your secondary damage type it will help keep your fire damage up a bit more.

I'd also recommend going for the 3rd warlock level for your pact boon. Sounds like you don't plan to be in melee much so blade can be skipped, but the other two have some nice uses.

Chain let's you get a powerful familiar. My favorite is the imp for the magic resistance, it's invisibility, it can shape change without having to cast the find familiar spell and cost you 10gp each time it changes, can attack if needed, it can talk and is smart so you can scout with it without having to rely on blinding your senses to scout through it, and no limit on distance for communication with it while on the same plane so you aren't limited to 100 feet.

Tome gets you 3 cantrips from ANY spell list and they will count as warlock spells, thus use Cha. Getting Guidance can be fun and there are more that are useful. Grab something off your spell lists, or grab ones on your list that you didn't have room for.

Snag Shillelagh and GFB for a melee backup for those times things get close and personal. I call this The Cuban since Shillelagh/Draconic-Fire/Undying makes your melee do 1d8+Xd8+Cha+Cha+Cha, not counting if hex is on or the free Xd8+Cha+Cha if they have a buddy next to them. Not a bad flaming-middle-finger to any who dare get close. Quicken one to spank them twice and you should be clear, or pretty darn close, to blast away at the far enemies again.

The invocations for Chain or Tome can be very nice but they aren't necessary. Keeping the EB ones works very well.


why you add 3 times +CHA in green flame blade? can you tell me any other trick for damage spells such as this? except EB of course.

[Citan]

why you add 3 times +CHA in green flame blade? can you tell me any other trick for damage spells such as this? except EB of course.
Quick reply (typing makes noise and I'm supposed to be silent, having children sleeping -or faking- around XD).
Because Shillelagh makes you use CHA as attack stat.
So Green Flame Blade on first target is 1d8 (quarterstaff shillelagh) + CHA (attack stat) + CHA (Undying Light) + CHA (Draconic).;)

[maxwell_wolfen]

Quick reply (typing makes noise and I'm supposed to be silent, having children sleeping -or faking- around XD).
Because Shillelagh makes you use CHA as attack stat.
So Green Flame Blade on first target is 1d8 (quarterstaff shillelagh) + CHA (attack stat) + CHA (Undying Light) + CHA (Draconic).;)

so the only way is to get it to work is to take shilelagh with warlock 3? any other way? my mind comes for magic initiate..but one feat for only this trick in 13 level?

any other such tricks? i would like to know

[Submortimer]

so the only way is to get it to work is to take shilelagh with warlock 3? any other way? my mind comes for magic initiate..but one feat for only this trick in 13 level?

any other such tricks? i would like to know

The problem with Magic Initiate is that shilelagh is a Druid spell, and when you take it with MI you have to use the Druid's spellcasting modifier(wisdom). When you take it with Tome, it becomes a Warlock spell, allowing you to use Charisma instead.

That said, unless you REALLY want to go with melee, I'd just stick to EB. Take Crossbow Expert so you can shoot in melee and you'll be fine. Undying light + gold dragon is probably the most thematic and certainly the most powerful combo you can get here, since you'll be adding 2 x Cha bonus to all your fire spells. Get Elemental Affinity(fire) so you can ignore resistance, and burn everything to the ground.

[maxwell_wolfen]

The problem with Magic Initiate is that shilelagh is a Druid spell, and when you take it with MI you have to use the Druid's spellcasting modifier(wisdom). When you take it with Tome, it becomes a Warlock spell, allowing you to use Charisma instead.

That said, unless you REALLY want to go with melee, I'd just stick to EB. Take Crossbow Expert so you can shoot in melee and you'll be fine. Undying light + gold dragon is probably the most thematic and certainly the most powerful combo you can get here, since you'll be adding 2 x Cha bonus to all your fire spells. Get Elemental Affinity(fire) so you can ignore resistance, and burn everything to the ground.

yeah thats the plan. EB ftw + fire spells. i just havent picked my character spells yet so thats why i am asking around for combos.

[Hakon]

you could go a melee type and take pact of tome and pick the shillelagh cantrip so you can fight in melee with your charisma
take green flame blade cantrip and war caster feet and great weapon fighter feat and you will match a eldritch blast lock if you choose undying light lock as your patron.
if you choose dragon sorcerer you will exceed damage output of eldritch blast
if you add 3 levels of paladin you can get your staff to add charisma a second time to the to hit roll
to hit = proficiency+casting ability(shillelagh)+charisma(paladin)
or sacrifice the extra charism to allow your great weapon fighting to make you do +10 damage on attacks.
also with a lock 4 sorcerer 6 paladin 3 build like that you get 14 cantrips and can cast ritual magic.


the strength of a sorlock is you can use your lock spell slots for casting sorcerer spells and then you regain them on a short rest giving you more frequent use of magic.

also while at it a pact of the tome lock should take guidance, cos its cool.

[CursedRhubarb]

A fire spell that can be fun in the right situation is Pyrotechnics. Ask your DM and see how they'd rule it first though. If you know you're up against someone using lots of fire spells or is on fire, worth asking if you can ready the spell so if they cast a fire spell, breath attack, or whatnot, you cast Pyrotechnics on it to make it go boom, possibly blinding them, or go poof and smokescreen the area. Nothing like casting fireball only to be blinded by it flashing in your face as it flys off XD

Scorching Ray combos beautifully with Hex, though check with your DM again. Some rule Hex will only work on one of the beams.

Control Flames can be amazing in the right situations. It only has Somatic components so it can be cast when sneaking about. So if sneaking around at night or in the dark you can mess with guards my playing with campfires and lamps to make shapes or cast shadows...Or spread the fire from their torch onto their uniform. Clothing and people burn so they should count as "fuel" for the requirement. If caught and need to just gtfo, smokescreen their torches or fires and run.

Flame Arrows can be a useful buff if you have an archer type in the group. Add 1d6+Cha+Cha to their arrows for 12 shots. Not useful all the time but can help on stealth missions since a bow would be quieter than spells most times.

For higher level spells, Immolation is nasty with the Draconic/UDL. 7d6+Cha+Cha(half if they save) then 3d6+Cha+Cha each round and can't be put out except by magic or making a save.

Investiture of Flame can be lots of fun. Immunity to fire, can make lines of fire, and 1d10+Cha+Cha to anyone to gets within 5' or ends their turn there. Becomes a nice deterrent to keep melee away but may draw ranged attention.

[maxwell_wolfen]

A fire spell that can be fun in the right situation is Pyrotechnics. Ask your DM and see how they'd rule it first though. If you know you're up against someone using lots of fire spells or is on fire, worth asking if you can ready the spell so if they cast a fire spell, breath attack, or whatnot, you cast Pyrotechnics on it to make it go boom, possibly blinding them, or go poof and smokescreen the area. Nothing like casting fireball only to be blinded by it flashing in your face as it flys off XD

Scorching Ray combos beautifully with Hex, though check with your DM again. Some rule Hex will only work on one of the beams.

Control Flames can be amazing in the right situations. It only has Somatic components so it can be cast when sneaking about. So if sneaking around at night or in the dark you can mess with guards my playing with campfires and lamps to make shapes or cast shadows...Or spread the fire from their torch onto their uniform. Clothing and people burn so they should count as "fuel" for the requirement. If caught and need to just gtfo, smokescreen their torches or fires and run.

Flame Arrows can be a useful buff if you have an archer type in the group. Add 1d6+Cha+Cha to their arrows for 12 shots. Not useful all the time but can help on stealth missions since a bow would be quieter than spells most times.

For higher level spells, Immolation is nasty with the Draconic/UDL. 7d6+Cha+Cha(half if they save) then 3d6+Cha+Cha each round and can't be put out except by magic or making a save.

Investiture of Flame can be lots of fun. Immunity to fire, can make lines of fire, and 1d10+Cha+Cha to anyone to gets within 5' or ends their turn there. Becomes a nice deterrent to keep melee away but may draw ranged attention.

Cool! i love using fire spells. and it matches quite nice (thematically) to my tiefling dragon sorceress.

[Zene]

Awesome advice in this thread!

I'm planning a Lock 3 / Sorc X myself. I hope the OP doesn't mind if I jump in here and ask for advice on my build.

My goal is to build a very strong blaster, rounded out with some utility / social / shenanigans capabilities. It is for AL play, so no UA, and I'm of course limited to PHB +1 --so I can use Volo's or SCAG or EE options. I'll be effectively starting at L5 since I'm just going to rebuild a character I haven't been using (and has not yet played their first session at L5, per AL rules).

So here's the current plan:

Yuan-Ti, 17 Cha, 14 Dex, 14 Con, Charlatan background
Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 2 (then progress in Sorc, picking up a third Lock level at some point)
To bring the damage, I'm picking up the Agonizing invocation, Quicken meta, and fire-based Dragon Sorc to boost AOE effectiveness (Fireball, Flamestrike, and eventually Meteor Swarm)
For social utility / fun shenanigans, I'm taking the Mask of Many Faces invocation, Subtle meta, and GOO Lock to be able to speak to people's minds; as well as spells like Friends, Suggestion, Command. Also spending first ASI on the Actor feat.
Spell choices will include the aforementioned fire-based AOEs and social utility spells, some defensives (Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step), Counterspell. I figure in combat I'll usually want my concentration to be on Hex, so I'm going light on other concentration spells, but still picking up Hold Monster, Confusion and probably a couple others here and there.


So what do y'all think? Anywhere I can improve? Is there a way to further boost my combat effectiveness without giving up too much of the non-combat pieces? Are there any particularly fun / useful combos I'm missing on the non-combat side?

Also, there are a few specific things I'm unsure of:

When to take the third Warlock level ...I'm thinking probably character level 20, so as to get Wish and Meteor Swarm as soon as possible. But I'm not sure if it'd be more useful earlier due to the short-rest slot upgrade or other features
Yuan-Ti seems like a strong choice, but it does mean I'm choosing Volo's as my +1 instead of SCAG or EE. Am I missing anything strong enough from those that would make it worth changing race? (probably to Tiefling or Half-Elf, neither of which is very appealing to me)
Not sure what I should take for later Metamagic choices. Twinned seems like a bit of a waste, as I can't twin EB, and won't want to use my concentration on things like Haste or Polymorph. But all the others seem kind of lackluster too for this build... leaning toward Distant, Extended, or Heightened, but they all seem like they'll only be occasionally useful.

[CursedRhubarb]

Awesome advice in this thread!

I'm planning a Lock 3 / Sorc X myself. I hope the OP doesn't mind if I jump in here and ask for advice on my build.

My goal is to build a very strong blaster, rounded out with some utility / social / shenanigans capabilities. It is for AL play, so no UA, and I'm of course limited to PHB +1 --so I can use Volo's or SCAG or EE options. I'll be effectively starting at L5 since I'm just going to rebuild a character I haven't been using (and has not yet played their first session at L5, per AL rules).

So here's the current plan:

Yuan-Ti, 17 Cha, 14 Dex, 14 Con, Charlatan background
Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 2 (then progress in Sorc, picking up a third Lock level at some point)
To bring the damage, I'm picking up the Agonizing invocation, Quicken meta, and fire-based Dragon Sorc to boost AOE effectiveness (Fireball, Flamestrike, and eventually Meteor Swarm)
For social utility / fun shenanigans, I'm taking the Mask of Many Faces invocation, Subtle meta, and GOO Lock to be able to speak to people's minds; as well as spells like Friends, Suggestion, Command. Also spending first ASI on the Actor feat.
Spell choices will include the aforementioned fire-based AOEs and social utility spells, some defensives (Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step), Counterspell. I figure in combat I'll usually want my concentration to be on Hex, so I'm going light on other concentration spells, but still picking up Hold Monster, Confusion and probably a couple others here and there.


So what do y'all think? Anywhere I can improve? Is there a way to further boost my combat effectiveness without giving up too much of the non-combat pieces? Are there any particularly fun / useful combos I'm missing on the non-combat side?

Also, there are a few specific things I'm unsure of:

When to take the third Warlock level ...I'm thinking probably character level 20, so as to get Wish and Meteor Swarm as soon as possible. But I'm not sure if it'd be more useful earlier due to the short-rest slot upgrade or other features
Yuan-Ti seems like a strong choice, but it does mean I'm choosing Volo's as my +1 instead of SCAG or EE. Am I missing anything from those that would make it worth changing race? (probably to Tiefling or Half-Elf)
Not sure what I should take for later Metamagic choices. Twinned seems like a bit of a waste, as I can't twin EB, and won't want to use my concentration on things like Haste or Polymorph. But all the others seem kind of lackluster too for this build... leaning toward Distant, Extended, or Heightened, but they all seem like they'll only be occasionally useful.


For when to go Lock 3 I'd say it depends on what boon you want and when you want it. Myself I'd get both to 3 then continue with Sorcerer to get both class features early.

Chain would let you get a Sprite familiar and their abilities can boost your social encounter effectiveness. Blade doesn't sound like what your after so will skip. Tome can get some fun cantrips. Minor Illusion can be a blast and useful in many situations. Having a save based damage cantrip can be nice so poison spray (great vs humanoids), acid splash and those might be good. Thorn Whip gives a nice melee spell attack for when guys go prone if you don't want to use a save based one.

[Zene]

Chain would let you get a Sprite familiar and their abilities can boost your social encounter effectiveness.

Oh good call! A flying, invisible, stealthy buddy I can communicate with telepathically could be super useful. Heh, the first thing I thought of was using it to cheat at poker --but I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. Heart Sight could be really useful too. I absolutely love the familiar on my Wizard, so the thought of having a suped-up familiar on this character makes me even more excited to play it.


Minor Illusion can be a blast and useful in many situations. Having a save based damage cantrip can be nice so poison spray (great vs humanoids), acid splash and those might be good.

Yeah I'm definitely picking up Minor Illusion as one of my 6 base (2 from Lock, 4 from Sorc) cantrips. For the others I was planning EB (of course), Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Friends, and one other damaging spell. Poison spray would be perfect for a Yuan-Ti; thanks for the suggestion! Also now that I think of it, a flying invisible familiar could do anything Mage Hand could do, so I can drop that for something else -- maybe Prestidigitation.

[CursedRhubarb]

Also now that I think of it, a flying invisible familiar could do anything Mage Hand could do, so I can drop that for something else -- maybe Prestidigitation.

Prestidigitation is amazing. A set of clothing can easily be fit within 1 cubic foot so you can keep your clothes clean, warm/chill them to handle temperatures, or change/remove scent to get past guard dogs.

Other effects offer great utility as well.

[Submortimer]

Some rule Hex will only work on one of the beams.

They can try, but they are explicitly wrong. The hex spell states that "Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack." If you hit it with multiple scorching rays, you deal extra damage each time.

That said, +cha to fire damage from UL warlock and Dragon sorc only applies once to each creature per spell you cast, not per creature you hit: its wording is different from both hex​ and Agonizing blast.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Awesome advice in this thread!

I'm planning a Lock 3 / Sorc X myself. I hope the OP doesn't mind if I jump in here and ask for advice on my build.

My goal is to build a very strong blaster, rounded out with some utility / social / shenanigans capabilities. It is for AL play, so no UA, and I'm of course limited to PHB +1 --so I can use Volo's or SCAG or EE options. I'll be effectively starting at L5 since I'm just going to rebuild a character I haven't been using (and has not yet played their first session at L5, per AL rules).

So here's the current plan:

Yuan-Ti, 17 Cha, 14 Dex, 14 Con, Charlatan background
Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 2 (then progress in Sorc, picking up a third Lock level at some point)
To bring the damage, I'm picking up the Agonizing invocation, Quicken meta, and fire-based Dragon Sorc to boost AOE effectiveness (Fireball, Flamestrike, and eventually Meteor Swarm)
For social utility / fun shenanigans, I'm taking the Mask of Many Faces invocation, Subtle meta, and GOO Lock to be able to speak to people's minds; as well as spells like Friends, Suggestion, Command. Also spending first ASI on the Actor feat.
Spell choices will include the aforementioned fire-based AOEs and social utility spells, some defensives (Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step), Counterspell. I figure in combat I'll usually want my concentration to be on Hex, so I'm going light on other concentration spells, but still picking up Hold Monster, Confusion and probably a couple others here and there.


So what do y'all think? Anywhere I can improve? Is there a way to further boost my combat effectiveness without giving up too much of the non-combat pieces? Are there any particularly fun / useful combos I'm missing on the non-combat side?

Also, there are a few specific things I'm unsure of:

When to take the third Warlock level ...I'm thinking probably character level 20, so as to get Wish and Meteor Swarm as soon as possible. But I'm not sure if it'd be more useful earlier due to the short-rest slot upgrade or other features
Yuan-Ti seems like a strong choice, but it does mean I'm choosing Volo's as my +1 instead of SCAG or EE. Am I missing anything strong enough from those that would make it worth changing race? (probably to Tiefling or Half-Elf, neither of which is very appealing to me)
Not sure what I should take for later Metamagic choices. Twinned seems like a bit of a waste, as I can't twin EB, and won't want to use my concentration on things like Haste or Polymorph. But all the others seem kind of lackluster too for this build... leaning toward Distant, Extended, or Heightened, but they all seem like they'll only be occasionally useful.


as for metamagic options i have the same feeling. Besides Quicken, the other options are not THAT mandatory. Perhaps Heightened for those save or suck spells. Those can make a difference in an encounter. Personally i would choose that one. my sorc 10/warlock 3 has quicken and heightened. Distant is good but depends on campaings. Ours is in the undermountain so there are no great distances between us and enemies in fights. I think distant is good to make some great touch spells have range like Bestow Curse (by Citan).

[Zene]

Bestow Curse is fantastic, but it's not on the Sorcerer spell list; Warlocks can take an invocation for it but not til 5th level. So there's no way to get it with a 3/17 build (unless I'm missing something)

[Asmotherion]

Hi to you all! i am building a new char in my campaign and i want to make an OP classic Sorlock build.

Our DM allows any content (not unofficial homebrew) but allows UA and SCAG.

We all begin at 13 level .
i am about to choose half-elf or tiefling (though drow is very fancy as well).
array is standard 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
i was about to make a sorc 10/ warlock 3 as i have read that his alpha strike capabilities surpass other classes. But i cant completely understand why it may be better than a pure sorcerer. Yes i know that Quickened Eldrich Blasts and such wreak havoc on single targeted enemies, but i hear about the same thing with a firebolt, a scorching ray etc. Also Which sorcerer origigs and warlock patrons synergy the best? i must say that i plan on making a very optimizing character and we also plan on playing through 20, so 9 level spells are essential.

also in terms of alpha striking....is the combination sor 17/wlc3 better than sor 18/wlc 2???

i thank you all for your time.

1) Quickened EB barages wreack havock. Single Target Damage is around 120 end game, 240 if you Wish for a Simulacrum. Hex is what makes you Single-Target focused.

2) Tiefling is the best race here IMO. Variant Wings if avalable. Otherwise, you still get extra spells, and since both your classes are extreamly limited in spells known, it's always worth your wile.

3) Since UA is permited, get Undying Light Patron+Fire Dragon Sorcerer. You add your Cha mod twice for fire spells. Take Warlock 3 Pact of the Tome to get Shillelegh, and both attack and damage with Cha when melee attacking with a polearm. This means that your Green Flame Blade deals +15 damage each time you use it, aka +30 for 2 hits when quickened. And that's to both targets. This makes you great both in melee and Ranged combat.

[CaptainSarathai]

so the only way is to get it to work is to take shilelagh with warlock 3? any other way? my mind comes for magic initiate..but one feat for only this trick in 13 level?

any other such tricks? i would like to know

You can get it through Bard (Magical Secrets) as well, and on Charisma. That's the only other way, and it takes 6 levels at least.

[CaptainSarathai]

I've actually been toying with a Cleric/Ranger/Sorcerer/Warlock build that ends up getting STR/WIS/CHA/CHA to greenflame blade, which it can use 4 times in a round, and gets an attack on top.

It's kind of silly but funny just the same.

How are you getting it the 3rd and 4th time, and what about the ruling that you can only cast 2 spells per turn?
Plus, unless you roll for stats, you've got 16s in two those, and maybe a 14 in the other, to start, if you're a Half Elf. Figure, 4 classes is at MAX going to kick you 5ASIs in your career. That's ending with 20, 20, 16 for a total of
+5, +3, +5, +5 = 18
And it takes most of the game to get there. I'm actually wondering what this build looks like.

[maxwell_wolfen]

1) Quickened EB barages wreack havock. Single Target Damage is around 120 end game, 240 if you Wish for a Simulacrum. Hex is what makes you Single-Target focused.

2) Tiefling is the best race here IMO. Variant Wings if avalable. Otherwise, you still get extra spells, and since both your classes are extreamly limited in spells known, it's always worth your wile.

3) Since UA is permited, get Undying Light Patron+Fire Dragon Sorcerer. You add your Cha mod twice for fire spells. Take Warlock 3 Pact of the Tome to get Shillelegh, and both attack and damage with Cha when melee attacking with a polearm. This means that your Green Flame Blade deals +15 damage each time you use it, aka +30 for 2 hits when quickened. And that's to both targets. This makes you great both in melee and Ranged combat.

yeah EB's are great.

Can you recommend some sorcerer spells? from level 4+
if hex is applied to every ray, is scorching ray better than EB?
Also booming blade is better than the GFB trick?

[Dalebert]

I think distant is good to make some great touch spells have range like Bestow Curse (by Citan).

Do touch spells automatically require a successful attack roll? I would assume so but I notice the spell doesn't specifically say you must make an attack roll.

If so, then Bestow Curse requires that you both successfully hit AND that the target fails their save before it takes effect. That's very discouraging whether it's ranged or not.

UPDATE: Though it now occurs to me that if the spell doesn't say it requires an attack roll, then if it has range, the assumption seems to me that it would not require one even if it did require it when it was touch. If so, adding range to it makes it significantly better. It's nice that it doesn't allow the target to keep saving to end the effect so that part is nice.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Do touch spells automatically require a successful attack roll? I would assume so but I notice the spell doesn't specifically say you must make an attack roll.

If so, then Bestow Curse requires that you both successfully hit AND that the target fails their save before it takes effect. That's very discouraging whether it's ranged or not.

UPDATE: Though it now occurs to me that if the spell doesn't say it requires an attack roll, then if it has range, the assumption seems to me that it would not require one even if it did require it when it was touch. If so, adding range to it makes it significantly better. It's nice that it doesn't allow the target to keep saving to end the effect so that part is nice.

Dalebert can you recommend a few cantrips or rituals for the pact of tome at warlock 3 lvl???
i have already added shilelagh and GFB

[maxwell_wolfen]

it seems we cant add both +CHA from elemental affinity and radiant soul. so i will go to favored soul for sorcerer.

[Dalebert]

if hex is applied to every ray, is scorching ray better than EB?

Tier 1, yeah. Tier 2 and after? Not really IMHO. Consider this. You can quicken EB for the same resource cost.

At tier 2
Scorching Ray: up to 9d6 dmg no bonus. Avg dmg=32ish
Two EBs via Quicken: 4d10+4d6+16. Avg dmg=22+14+16=52ish

At tier 3 a single EB wins even without Quicken.
3d10+3d6+15. Avg dmg=16+11+15=42ish


Also booming blade is better than the GFB trick?

Booming Blade can be twinned but GFB is arguably better for quickening if you have two enemies adjacent, though quicken costs twice as much as Twinned.


Dalebert can you recommend a few cantrips or rituals for the pact of tome at warlock 3 lvl???
i have already added shilelagh and GFB

*shrug*
Guidance, Create Bonfire, Move Earth
Not that impressed with Shilellagh unless you're going to have multiple melee attacks somehow from multiclassing. Other cantrip dmg will exceed. But make sure you have a cantrip for melee like Shocking Grasp or something save-based. Hex won't work on save-based though.

[maxwell_wolfen]

Tier 1, yeah. Tier 2 and after? Not really IMHO. Consider this. You can quicken EB for the same resource cost.

At tier 2
Scorching Ray: up to 9d6 dmg no bonus. Avg dmg=32ish
Two EBs via Quicken: 4d10+4d6+16. Avg dmg=22+14+16=52ish

At tier 3 a single EB wins even without Quicken.
3d10+3d6+15. Avg dmg=16+11+15=42ish



Booming Blade can be twinned but GFB is arguably better for quickening if you have two enemies adjacent, though quicken costs twice as much as Twinned.



*shrug*
Guidance, Create Bonfire, Move Earth
Not that impressed with Shilellagh unless you're going to have multiple melee attacks somehow from multiclassing. Other cantrip dmg will exceed. But make sure you have a cantrip for melee like Shocking Grasp or something save-based. Hex won't work on save-based though.

turn 1
on your first action you cast shilellagh.

turn 2
cast greenflame blade quickened. you have to attack though. using extra attack from favored soul you attack 2 times 1d8 using your CHA modifier. plus +5 from radiant soul. I could add elemental affinity too but it states in the errata that you cant add 2 things giving you the same thing.

[Asmotherion]

yeah EB's are great.

Can you recommend some sorcerer spells? from level 4+
if hex is applied to every ray, is scorching ray better than EB?
Also booming blade is better than the GFB trick?

A) Do you mean Character Level or Spell Level? I'll write my answer as if it's spell level. Those are my default spells on Sorcelock:
Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Magic Missile, Shield, Disguise Self, Mirror Image, Counterspell, Blink, Fireball, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone, Disintegrade, Finger of Death, Teleport, Dominate Monster, Wish, Gate.

I sometimes substitute/add some of them:
Find Fammiliar (if I take the Ritual Caster Feat)+other rituals, Grease (magic initiate), Detect Magic, Identify, Alter Self, Haste, Scorching Ray, Dispel Magic, Polymorph, Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Meteor Swarm.

What I like in the Sorlock is the fact that by taking EB, Hex and a couple invocations, I can focus my limited "Spells Known" list on versality, rather than blasty options, since I have an universal all-purpose Blasting Option that's good all day, every day. Then I can take spells like Wall of Stone to get some money by building castles for nobles in less than a few moment's worth of work, or Teleportation Cyrcle for travelers. I can RP my entry into enemy lands easyly with Disguise Self/Alter Self, and use my high charisma for something more than just spellcasting. Magic Missile gives me an auto-hit option for bulky ACs that I don't feel confident dealing with using EB, wile Shield gives me a safty option. Mirror Image and Blink make me hard to hit, Counterspell makes enemy spellcasters uneffective against me, Fireball for a general all-purpose AOE. Telekinesis because I love telekinesis, and it's an other all-purpose thing that can be used in a million diferent situations to do a billion diferent things. Disintegrade is there less for the High Damage factor, and more for the Cool Factor. And, in the event of the party being surounded by a Wall of Force, it's priceless. Finger of Death makes you a Necromancer light edition. Stacking an infinite amound of zombies as long as they don't die is always a nice thing to have. Teleport to save you the trouble of walking long distances and to have a quick "escape button" for you and your party, in case things go south. Haste, Dominate Person and Dominate Monster, mainly because you're the only person who can Twin this and make it even more useful. Gate can be used in many ways, from summoning a friendly outsider you've met in your adventures, to 2-step banishing things (Plane Shift+Gete to summon the thing, which allows no save) including the Terasque. Wish because... well, it's the best spell you can have, and can be used in so many ways that you're basically a minor god by the time you can cast it.

B) Scorching Ray indeed has more damage potential when upcast, since hex is applied to each beam. However, due to the errata, your Cha modifier is only aplied once per spell from your sorcerous origin, not once per beam, witch is not the case for Agonising Blast, which still applies it's Cha Mod once per beam. At Lv2, scorching ray to a hexed target deals an average of 36 damage. However it is less consistent than EB, and only outdamages it till level 11 when EB gets it's 3rd beam. Upcasting deals some good amount of damage too. However, what you have to keep in mind is that EB can be cast all day long, as it is a Cantrip, aka at will, and only needs the same cost as casting a basic lv2 Scorching Ray to quicken it more times per day, doubling the damage output. It can also be used together with Scorching Ray by quickening Scorching Ray, as after you quicken, you can only use a cantrip in the same turn.

C) Booming Blade has the potential to deal more single-target damage, if the secondary effect trigers. However, GFB has more raw power and divides it between 2 targets. What is good about this is that it gets to work early in game, effectivelly by character level 6. By level 11 it's out--damaged by EB, but it's still a good melee option, and can help a character's versality.

[maxwell_wolfen]

A) Do you mean Character Level or Spell Level? I'll write my answer as if it's spell level. Those are my default spells on Sorcelock:
Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Magic Missile, Shield, Disguise Self, Mirror Image, Counterspell, Blink, Fireball, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone, Disintegrade, Finger of Death, Teleport, Dominate Monster, Wish, Gate.

I sometimes substitute/add some of them:
Find Fammiliar (if I take the Ritual Caster Feat)+other rituals, Grease (magic initiate), Detect Magic, Identify, Alter Self, Haste, Scorching Ray, Dispel Magic, Polymorph, Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Globe of Invulnerability, Plane Shift, Meteor Swarm.

What I like in the Sorlock is the fact that by taking EB, Hex and a couple invocations, I can focus my limited "Spells Known" list on versality, rather than blasty options, since I have an universal all-purpose Blasting Option that's good all day, every day. Then I can take spells like Wall of Stone to get some money by building castles for nobles in less than a few moment's worth of work, or Teleportation Cyrcle for travelers. I can RP my entry into enemy lands easyly with Disguise Self/Alter Self, and use my high charisma for something more than just spellcasting. Magic Missile gives me an auto-hit option for bulky ACs that I don't feel confident dealing with using EB, wile Shield gives me a safty option. Mirror Image and Blink make me hard to hit, Counterspell makes enemy spellcasters uneffective against me, Fireball for a general all-purpose AOE. Telekinesis because I love telekinesis, and it's an other all-purpose thing that can be used in a million diferent situations to do a billion diferent things. Disintegrade is there less for the High Damage factor, and more for the Cool Factor. And, in the event of the party being surounded by a Wall of Force, it's priceless. Finger of Death makes you a Necromancer light edition. Stacking an infinite amound of zombies as long as they don't die is always a nice thing to have. Teleport to save you the trouble of walking long distances and to have a quick "escape button" for you and your party, in case things go south. Haste, Dominate Person and Dominate Monster, mainly because you're the only person who can Twin this and make it even more useful. Gate can be used in many ways, from summoning a friendly outsider you've met in your adventures, to 2-step banishing things (Plane Shift+Gete to summon the thing, which allows no save) including the Terasque. Wish because... well, it's the best spell you can have, and can be used in so many ways that you're basically a minor god by the time you can cast it.

B) Scorching Ray indeed has more damage potential when upcast, since hex is applied to each beam. However, due to the errata, your Cha modifier is only aplied once per spell from your sorcerous origin, not once per beam, witch is not the case for Agonising Blast, which still applies it's Cha Mod once per beam. At Lv2, scorching ray to a hexed target deals an average of 36 damage. However it is less consistent than EB, and only outdamages it till level 11 when EB gets it's 3rd beam. Upcasting deals some good amount of damage too. However, what you have to keep in mind is that EB can be cast all day long, as it is a Cantrip, aka at will, and only needs the same cost as casting a basic lv2 Scorching Ray to quicken it more times per day, doubling the damage output. It can also be used together with Scorching Ray by quickening Scorching Ray, as after you quicken, you can only use a cantrip in the same turn.

C) Booming Blade has the potential to deal more single-target damage, if the secondary effect trigers. However, GFB has more raw power and divides it between 2 targets. What is good about this is that it gets to work early in game, effectivelly by character level 6. By level 11 it's out--damaged by EB, but it's still a good melee option, and can help a character's versality.

thats how i see it too. i have EB so the only blasts i take are fireball, sunbeam and meteor swarm. Then i take only save or suck spells (no utility spells) or other semi-broken spells (reverse gravity, wish etc.)

favored soul and the trickery domain in particular + some warlock spells give me many useful spells. so that can free up some sorcerer spells known for even more neat spells.

[Zene]

2-step banishing things (Plane Shift+Gate to summon the thing, which allows no save)

Can you explain this a little bit? Reading the spell descriptions, I'm guessing you plane shift yourself somewhere that won't kill you, then gate your enemy (assuming you know its true name), then plane shift yourself back, leaving the enemy there... is that how it works?

[Vaz]

Yup. But it has downsides, such as the ability of the DM to flat out Nope as pseudonyms are not allowed etc

[maxwell_wolfen]

Yup. But it has downsides, such as the ability of the DM to flat out Nope as pseudonyms are not allowed etc

assuming you can melee touch attack him...assuming you get close to your enemy.

[ApplePen]

I know others have said it, but I'll weigh in with some extra.

Start off by going pact of the tome. Take shillelagh, guidance and one cantrip of choice.

Shillelagh casts as a bonus action and gives you CHA to hit and damage as part of the weapon itself.

Go undying light warlock and you get CHA to spell damage on fire/Radiant.

Go Dragon sorc for the AC boost and CHA to fire spells a second time.

You now have CHA 3x to your damage and once to attack if casting Green Flame Blade.

That is actually pretty huge.

Now you want a bit of Paladin. Not a whole lot, mind, just enough levels to get CHA to hit again. This carries another bonus, a fighting style. You can take Defensive and have an additional+1 to AC. Being an Elf, you already get pretty nice DEX bonuses, and dragon sorcerer gave you a permanent AC increase and some more HP. You should be OK in melee at this point. Smite is also great to have. Especially when you get slots back on a short rest.

Any time a combat starts, you are going to be destroying things immediately. With cantrips. Take Shield as a spell pick and you'll be harder to deal with in melee than the fighter.
For added fun, grab Great weapon master and trade one of your +CHA to hit for 10 more damage.

You will hit like a truck. That's +25 damage per smack with Greenflame blade, and you can Quicken it, letting you smack twice per round.

At range, you are still a huge threat, because agonizing Eldritch Blast, quickened and possibly Twinned. You are going to belt out a ton of damage, have great versatility, fast refresh and solid tanking power.

If you really don't want the Paladin dip, you'll eventually get 9th level spells. Honestly it's worth the dip unless the game is going epic. You get the slots anyway.

[maxwell_wolfen]

I know others have said it, but I'll weigh in with some extra.

Start off by going pact of the tome. Take shillelagh, guidance and one cantrip of choice.

Shillelagh casts as a bonus action and gives you CHA to hit and damage as part of the weapon itself.

Go undying light warlock and you get CHA to spell damage on fire/Radiant.

Go Dragon sorc for the AC boost and CHA to fire spells a second time.

You now have CHA 3x to your damage and once to attack if casting Green Flame Blade.

That is actually pretty huge.

Now you want a bit of Paladin. Not a whole lot, mind, just enough levels to get CHA to hit again. This carries another bonus, a fighting style. You can take Defensive and have an additional+1 to AC. Being an Elf, you already get pretty nice DEX bonuses, and dragon sorcerer gave you a permanent AC increase and some more HP. You should be OK in melee at this point. Smite is also great to have. Especially when you get slots back on a short rest.

Any time a combat starts, you are going to be destroying things immediately. With cantrips. Take Shield as a spell pick and you'll be harder to deal with in melee than the fighter.
For added fun, grab Great weapon master and trade one of your +CHA to hit for 10 more damage.

You will hit like a truck. That's +25 damage per smack with Greenflame blade, and you can Quicken it, letting you smack twice per round.

At range, you are still a huge threat, because agonizing Eldritch Blast, quickened and possibly Twinned. You are going to belt out a ton of damage, have great versatility, fast refresh and solid tanking power.

If you really don't want the Paladin dip, you'll eventually get 9th level spells. Honestly it's worth the dip unless the game is going epic. You get the slots anyway.

we begun at 13th level and we will surely get to 20. i prefer 9th spells or at least good 7 and 8 spell slots. and i dont care much for being a tank. while its a good alternative from EB, (i already have GFB) i m pretty sure draconic +CHA and undying warlock +CHA doesnt stack. Or at least our DM doesnt allow it to stack. Right now i have a favored soul/undying build with great EB's and ton of spells from domain+sorcerer+warlock dips.

[Asmotherion]

Can you explain this a little bit? Reading the spell descriptions, I'm guessing you plane shift yourself somewhere that won't kill you, then gate your enemy (assuming you know its true name), then plane shift yourself back, leaving the enemy there... is that how it works?

That's it more-or-less. It's not a cheat-per-say, as the DM needs to be willing to allow it, but it can be the Deus Ex Machina when the DM miscalculated an encounter that would be unbeatable by itself (such as throwing an Ancient Red Dragon/ The Terrasque with a hoard of underlings, and is trying to save the players without looking lame. Depending on your DM, he might be willing to even reward this kind of creative solutions, the same way he did back in level 1, when you used Sleep on a bunsh of Lions instead of trying to kill them while outnumbered...

1) So, basically, you plane shift on an other plane of existance; Preferably 200+feet in the sky, since most sorcerer options have some way to fly by the levels you can cast Gate.
2) You use gate, speak the true name of the creature (diferent DMs might give diferent aproaches to learning it, but a campain boss might require some side-quest, wile a monster might just need a successful Arcana or History check. A lore bard might help in optaining the name with Legend Lore too. This way, you summon it up in the sky, and (if it has no flying speed), gravity will make sure it won't reach you back, and take some damage in the process.
3) Use the oppen portal to travel back to were you came from.

An alternative way to do this is by a simple Gate spell, cast under the feet of the target(s), that links again high in an other plane's sky. The only downside on this option is the DM might allow a Dex save for creatures within 5 feet of the corners of the Gate.

One way is more aplicable as an AOE wile the other is more of a Boss Finisher. None will work without DM aproval.

[maxwell_wolfen]

That's it more-or-less. It's not a cheat-per-say, as the DM needs to be willing to allow it, but it can be the Deus Ex Machina when the DM miscalculated an encounter that would be unbeatable by itself (such as throwing an Ancient Red Dragon/ The Terrasque with a hoard of underlings, and is trying to save the players without looking lame. Depending on your DM, he might be willing to even reward this kind of creative solutions, the same way he did back in level 1, when you used Sleep on a bunsh of Lions instead of trying to kill them while outnumbered...

1) So, basically, you plane shift on an other plane of existance; Preferably 200+feet in the sky, since most sorcerer options have some way to fly by the levels you can cast Gate.
2) You use gate, speak the true name of the creature (diferent DMs might give diferent aproaches to learning it, but a campain boss might require some side-quest, wile a monster might just need a successful Arcana or History check. A lore bard might help in optaining the name with Legend Lore too. This way, you summon it up in the sky, and (if it has no flying speed), gravity will make sure it won't reach you back, and take some damage in the process.
3) Use the oppen portal to travel back to were you came from.

An alternative way to do this is by a simple Gate spell, cast under the feet of the target(s), that links again high in an other plane's sky. The only downside on this option is the DM might allow a Dex save for creatures within 5 feet of the corners of the Gate.

One way is more aplicable as an AOE wile the other is more of a Boss Finisher. None will work without DM aproval.


plane shift is a melee touch attack. does it work with distant spell?

[Citan]

plane shift is a melee touch attack. does it work with distant spell?
Hi, yes, sure it works by RAW, it's precisely covered by the text of Distant Metamagic: it becomes a "melee spell attack" (well, Plane Shift tells you this already when you target an unwilling creature), but the range is now 30 feet instead of "your reach".

[Dalebert]

If a spell normally requires touch, I assume you have to make a melee attack to land it, right? Does extending the range to 30 ft still require an attack roll or is it automatic? Bestow Curse came up in another thread. It requires touch and also allows a save which makes it less appealing to me but if adding 30 ft range takes away the need for an attack, it's not so bad.

[Zene]

Touch spells do not require attack rolls unless they specifically say so. If it requires a save instead of an attack roll, it's assuming a failed save is a successful touch (and vice-versa)

[Asmotherion]

plane shift is a melee touch attack. does it work with distant spell?

It does, but it's not really the issue; Plane Shift in the example I gave is used for your own transport to an other Plane, not the target.

[maxwell_wolfen]

if we assume we are in a place where the ceiling is over 100ft from the ground. What happens to Reverse gravity spell? people are staying in 100ft from the ground in the air?