Mid level martial artist, all 1st party hardcover allowed

[rrwoods]

No Dragon (except Compendium).

I'm generally curious about a build that would be sweet at all levels of play, but right now I'm focused specifically on level 9. Unarmed Swordsage seems like a good baseline (Improved Unarmed Strike being granted here, along with the usual WIS to AC fix). Barbarian for rage (and pounce?) might fit, increasing the effectiveness of grapples and possibly throws.

The context is a three man party, with the other two being an archer and a swiftblade gish.

[Red Fel]

No Dragon (except Compendium).

I'm generally curious about a build that would be sweet at all levels of play, but right now I'm focused specifically on level 9. Unarmed Swordsage seems like a good baseline (Improved Unarmed Strike being granted here, along with the usual WIS to AC fix). Barbarian for rage (and pounce?) might fit, increasing the effectiveness of grapples and possibly throws.

The context is a three man party, with the other two being an archer and a swiftblade gish.

Define martial artist.

Anybody can take IUS (and possibly SUS) and become unarmed-functional. What else do you want? Is Flurry mandatory? Wis to AC? Battle Dancer gets CHA to AC - is that acceptable? Is armor an option?

I mean, I've watched movies. I've seen demonstrations. Martial artist means a lot of things. Heck, I know one martial art that includes "defense against firearm" from multiple angles. (Hint: It involves disarming your opponent, then threatening them with said firearm.) Yeah, the term has a lot of meanings. So what do you mean?

[Doctor Despair]

Define martial artist.

Anybody can take IUS (and possibly SUS) and become unarmed-functional. What else do you want? Is Flurry mandatory? Wis to AC? Battle Dancer gets CHA to AC - is that acceptable? Is armor an option?

I mean, I've watched movies. I've seen demonstrations. Martial artist means a lot of things. Heck, I know one martial art that includes "defense against firearm" from multiple angles. (Hint: It involves disarming your opponent, then threatening them with said firearm.) Yeah, the term has a lot of meanings. So what do you mean?

He meant a Marital Artist; Celebrant of Sharess would do. :p

Without knowing specific things he'd like to do, I suppose general advice might be that Tome of Battle stuff is generally better for mundanes than anything else out there and that size increases go a long way. Disarming, grappling, tripping, etc. can be more effective than straight damage, which will typically always be higher if you were using a weapon, and size increases help there, too. Races with Powerful Build (like the Goliath) can help with those checks as well.

[rrwoods]

Define martial artist.

Anybody can take IUS (and possibly SUS) and become unarmed-functional. What else do you want? Is Flurry mandatory? Wis to AC? Battle Dancer gets CHA to AC - is that acceptable? Is armor an option?

I mean, I've watched movies. I've seen demonstrations. Martial artist means a lot of things. Heck, I know one martial art that includes "defense against firearm" from multiple angles. (Hint: It involves disarming your opponent, then threatening them with said firearm.) Yeah, the term has a lot of meanings. So what do you mean?
Yeah I guess martial artist isn't a terribly specific term, eh?

Looking for the "feel" of a "typical" Monk (as nebulous as that is). Hitting hard with fists first and foremost. I see flurry as just one (weak) option among many and no DM buffs to it are on the table, which is what leans me to Unarmed Swordsage. A bit of BFC would be nice (since the archer and gish will probably end up with none), which leans me toward Setting Sun throws and/or grappling, fluffed as a sort of judo/wrestling hybrid style (whether that type of martial art actually exists doesn't matter :-P).

Less of the supernatural wuxia type stuff, though if that ends up being what it takes to contribute at mid levels then so be it.

[Doctor Despair]

Yeah I guess martial artist isn't a terribly specific term, eh?

Looking for the "feel" of a "typical" Monk (as nebulous as that is). Hitting hard with fists first and foremost. I see flurry as just one (weak) option among many and no DM buffs to it are on the table, which is what leans me to Unarmed Swordsage. A bit of BFC would be nice (since the archer and gish will probably end up with none), which leans me toward Setting Sun throws and/or grappling, fluffed as a sort of judo/wrestling hybrid style (whether that type of martial art actually exists doesn't matter :-P).

Less of the supernatural wuxia type stuff, though if that ends up being what it takes to contribute at mid levels then so be it.

If you want unarmed damage, but without flurry... you could try an ubercharger build; I have to imagine most of that damage is from the feat chain, not the specific weapons used, and flying kick is a nice, flavorful technique.

The tough thing about going for a BFC mundane is that, iirc, most trip-based builds use things like whips that extend your reach to do so. I'd recommend trying for disarming (your mileage may vary depending on the setting) or grappling. Maybe you could make an unarmed varient of the pinball dungeoncrasher build that throws enemies around, but that's kind of a different flavor than what you're describing.

[Red Fel]

Yeah I guess martial artist isn't a terribly specific term, eh?

Looking for the "feel" of a "typical" Monk (as nebulous as that is). Hitting hard with fists first and foremost. I see flurry as just one (weak) option among many and no DM buffs to it are on the table, which is what leans me to Unarmed Swordsage. A bit of BFC would be nice (since the archer and gish will probably end up with none), which leans me toward Setting Sun throws and/or grappling, fluffed as a sort of judo/wrestling hybrid style (whether that type of martial art actually exists doesn't matter :-P).

Less of the supernatural wuxia type stuff, though if that ends up being what it takes to contribute at mid levels then so be it.

For me, the one that comes to mind isn't Swordsage (unarmed or otherwise) - it's Warblade. Grab IUS and SUS and you're there. Grab a Necklace of Natural Weapons and you're functional. Everything else is gravy. Specialize however you want. Shrug off blows, burst into flame, master tactics, perform two full attacks at once. Heck, grab Stormguard Warrior and use Combat Rhythm to crunch faces; couple it with Punishing Stance to prove how ludicrous you can be.

[rrwoods]

For me, the one that comes to mind isn't Swordsage (unarmed or otherwise) - it's Warblade. Grab IUS and SUS and you're there. Grab a Necklace of Natural Weapons and you're functional. Everything else is gravy. Specialize however you want. Shrug off blows, burst into flame, master tactics, perform two full attacks at once. Heck, grab Stormguard Warrior and use Combat Rhythm to crunch faces; couple it with Punishing Stance to prove how ludicrous you can be.
Interesting. Access to IHS is a cool plus too, and totally fits in with this type of character.

Question about SUS as I've never used it before: the text says that you "deal additional damage ... as shown on the table". Does that mean that you add the damage on the table to your normal unarmed strike damage, or replace it? I could see it both ways but I'm curious as to the community's consensus.

[Troacctid]

At 9th level, for a medium-size character, Superior Unarmed Strike is boosting your damage from 1d4 to 1d8, an increase of only +2 on average. That's not really worth a feat.

Something you could do instead is be a Warforged and get yourself a natural slam attack. That's a 1d6 damage punch right there. Or you could take some other race with natural weapons, like Daelkyr Half-Blood, Darfellan, Kenku, Kobold, or Laika. This can conserve feats.

[Darrin]

Question about SUS as I've never used it before: the text says that you "deal additional damage ... as shown on the table". Does that mean that you add the damage on the table to your normal unarmed strike damage, or replace it? I could see it both ways but I'm curious as to the community's consensus.

You replace your unarmed damage with the value on the table.

There are some quirks to SUS... the damage scales similar to a small-sized monk, but the table doesn't actually pay attention to size. Strongheart Halfling Warblade with IUS + SUS, for example, has about the same damage as monk but is outpacing BAB, picks up Snap Kick at ECL 6, and has access to the Weapon Specialization line. Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium) or Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) can be used to pick up the Monk's unarmed strike without actually taking any levels of monk. There are a couple different ways to get Pounce into the build without losing any BAB.

[Stealth Marmot]

At 9th level, for a medium-size character, Superior Unarmed Strike is boosting your damage from 1d4 to 1d8, an increase of only +2 on average. That's not really worth a feat.

+2 damage is literally weapon specialization, and most find that worthwhile. However, I would instead just buy a monk's belt. Unarmed changes to 1d8 plus you gain your wisdom bonus +1 to your unarmored AC if you are going unarmored.

[Red Fel]

+2 damage is literally weapon specialization, and most find that worthwhile. However, I would instead just buy a monk's belt. Unarmed changes to 1d8 plus you gain your wisdom bonus +1 to your unarmored AC if you are going unarmored.

Alternatively, take a class like Fist of the Forest or Frostrager (or both, if you can figure out how the mechanics mix).

FotF doesn't require Rage, but rather three feats, two of which - IUS and PA - you will most certainly take. It gives you Con to AC and Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Scent, a 2/day Rage, treats your unarmed strikes as magic weapons (if they're already magic, they become Ghost Touch), and boosts your unarmed damage to 1d10. All for just three levels and a promise to stop bathing or wearing nice clothes.

Frostrager does require Rage, but a two-level Spirit Lion Barbarian dip gets you Pounce, which is almost always good for a melee-type, and meets the prerequisite. It upgrades your Rage, giving you natural AC, upgrading your unarmed damage, and adding bonus Cold damage to your unarmed strikes; it also gives you a Flurry option and a Rend option. It also lets you automatically stabilize and makes you immune to bleed effects, and also lets you absorb Cold damage, but those are just extras. Five levels, you can snap it up easily.

The downside to both classes, though, is that they are a very different take on the "martial artist" concept. Admittedly, the idea of a raging warrior is frequently present in wuxia, but the sensibility on Monks tends to be more of a cool-headed tactical fighter than a raging unarmed brute.

But yeah. There are options other than SUS. I still recommend the Necklace, though. Specifically, Necklace of Natural Attacks, not Amulet of Mighty Fists. The latter gives a flat +X to all natural attacks, but the former allows you to enhance a natural attack category (e.g. unarmed strikes) individually, even with upgrades like Flaming, Ghost Touch, or Throwing.

Yes. Get Throwing and Returning on that thing, and enjoy your rocket punch.

[TristanS]

Too bad no Dragon, as the city brawler barbarian variant from Dragon is really fun ...

I agree with fist of the forest, but could also go with an unarmed ranger with dual wield - ranger has lots of good ACFs.

[Troacctid]

+2 damage is literally weapon specialization, and most find that worthwhile.
Weapon Specialization is not a particularly strong feat.

[rrwoods]

The raging PrCs are interesting (great fortitude hurts so much but whatever), but I'm not sure they're what I'm looking for. Might have a look and see if I can't make the fluff fit though.

[Inevitability]

Frostrager does require Rage, but a two-level Spirit Lion Barbarian dip gets you Pounce, which is almost always good for a melee-type, and meets the prerequisite.

What does the second level give? As far as I can see, both pounce and rage are granted by level 1.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+2 damage is literally weapon specialization, and most find that worthwhile. However, I would instead just buy a monk's belt. Unarmed changes to 1d8 plus you gain your wisdom bonus +1 to your unarmored AC if you are going unarmored.

Actually I die a little when I take on the way to the far more relevant weapon mastery feats. SUS had the decency to scale to level though so it will pick up relevance.

[Eldariel]

Superior Unarmed Strike is weird in that as it doesn't specify size, by RAW that's literally the damage you get regardless of your effective size. If your DM reads it to just be normal damage instead, you can use (effective) size increases with it to a decent effect. Of course, optimally you'd just get Greater Mighty Wallop and leave it at that; your 1d8 would turn into 6d6 which, while not amazing, is not terrible either.


What does the second level give? As far as I can see, both pounce and rage are granted by level 1.

I'd guess it's mostly for the round initiator level and a qualification-free feat like Improved Trip.

[Rebel7284]

There is always monk->psychic warrior with Tashalatora feat to stack them. Augmented Expansion alone makes you able to do all the combat maneuvers fairly effectively and as you level, you have the option to pick up more utility so you're not completely outclassed in the mid-levels.