Dominate Person vs. Protection From Evil: The Rules Lawyer Edition

[DM_reek]

The argument that won't die... So my party decided to ask me to run city of the spider queen modified to 3.5. With the 3rd ed to 3.5 changes to haste, darkness, etc there's been some homebrew :::cough::: DM fiat :::cough::: thrown in the keep the original flavor while making it feasible. Example, instead of haste granting an extra spell cast as a partial action I supply the npc's rods of quicken lesser that explode if picked up by my player characters. Argument being Drow wouldn't allow their magic items to easily fall into the hands of surface adventurers. They can get their hands on the quicken rods but it takes some ingenuity. But I digress...

So my issue is this, the fighter gets hit with DC 20 dominate by the vampire and fails. The vampire commands he kill the cleric and because this is not in his nature I grant the saving throw with the commensurate bonus but due to level drain he fails again. Immediately on the next round the cleric casts protection from evil without doing anything to identify the enchantment. (never mind the obvious meta game knowledge) I rule that because the dominate effects were already in place and the command was already given that the fighter continue to stalk the cleric however that the protection blocks any additional attempt to give commands. The game screeches to a halt as Player's Handbooks open and the rules lawyers begin to eviscerate the dm.

My rationale, if a command is given and followed at the exclusion of everything then by cutting off the ability to exercise further control your dominator is blocked from issuing any new commands. As the spell isn't dispelled the last command must be followed. Otherwise a 1st level spell has just broke a 4th spell. I say you must break enchantment to end the compulsion. Protection is a defensive ward used as precaution not a get out of jail free.

Am I the only one who reads dominate person this way? Suggestions? I want to be fair and give my players a good adventure without turning vampires into little pansies.

[Blackhawk748]

It suppresses the Dominate effect, as in, the whole effect. So the Fighter wouldnt try to murder the Cleric cuz his mind isnt under control.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Wrong forum.

I agree with the players, though, the key word in the spell is "suppresses". I read that as negating the effect of the Dominate until the Protection from Evil expires.

If I can suggest an alternative, Dominate lasts way longer than Protection from Evil. There's nothing stopping the vampire from showing up, Dominating, and then fleeing. If the party doesn't have a way to remove the Dominate itself then all they've done is push the problem a few minutes down the road.

[DM_reek]

"Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent the character from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but it does not prevent the establishment of domination or dispel it."

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth."

See I read it as the dominator loses the ability to give commands not that the given command was suppressed.

[DM_reek]

Wrong forum.

Where should I have posted? Thanks for the heads up.

[DM_reek]

If I can suggest an alternative, Dominate lasts way longer than Protection from Evil. There's nothing stopping the vampire from showing up, Dominating, and then fleeing. If the party doesn't have a way to remove the Dominate itself then all they've done is push the problem a few minutes down the road.

The encounter is long over, I believe he only had domination up for three rounds before dropping. I intended to show the importance of having the spell in place before getting dominated to begin with. I guess I'm just reading it differently. The wording is pretty vague. I appreciate your feedback back and thank you.

Any other thoughts out there?

[Koo Rehtorb]

There's an argument to be made either way, it's not super clear. I think "suppresses" would be the key word I'd use, though.

And you want the 3.5 forum. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20

[Zombimode]

The encounter is long over, I believe he only had domination up for three rounds before dropping. I intended to show the importance of having the spell in place before getting dominated to begin with. I guess I'm just reading it differently. The wording is pretty vague. I appreciate your feedback back and thank you.

Any other thoughts out there?

Well, the main use for the Protection from X spells IS to be an emergency button to press in those situations where one of your companions gets hit by a mind control effect. Arguing that "suppresses the effect" does somehow not suppress the whole effect seems just spiteful.

Look at it this way: a dominate effect does not just create a telepathic link between dominator and target to issue commands, but also an ongoing compulsion to follow those commands. And this compulsion is part of the effect that is being suppressed by a Protection from X spell. So sure, the target remembers getting the commands that were issued before the Protection effect came into place, but without the compulsion the target does not need to follow them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Going with the crowd on this one because they've got it right.

The dominate effect is suppressed for the duration of the prot <align> spell. It's no different than if it were suppressed by an antimagic or dead magic area. It ceases to function in its entirety until the suppressing effect is removed.

Now suppressed is not removed. Even if the offending caster is slain in the mean-time, the dominate will resume when the prot <align> fails and he will resume trying to follow the last order he was given until the dominate duration lapses but until then he can act normally.

[druid zook]

If your character is dominated, but the effect is SUPPRESSED, then you are not dominated while the compulsion is in effect. Any protection or magic circle spell saves the pc from compulsion for the duration. Good thing they killed :smallsmile:yourvampire!

[Zanos]

I don't see how this is even an argument, considering dominate person is specifically called out as an effect that is blocked and suppressed, so unless you have some very bizarre definition of those words, the fighter acts normally while protection is up.

As to the metagame thing...it's not really. You might call for a knowledge(religion) check to know that vampires can dominate people, but "this guy I'm adventuring with is suddenly trying to murder me for no real reason, he must be mentally controlled" is not much of a leap of logic.

[Zombimode]

As to the metagame thing...it's not really. You might call for a knowledge(religion) check to know that vampires can dominate people, but "this guy I'm adventuring with is suddenly trying to murder me for no real reason, he must be mentally controlled" is not much of a leap of logic.

As I understood the situation it went like this:

1. Vampire Dominates Fighter
2. Vampire and mentally commands Fighter to attack party members
3. Fighter gets another save but fails
4. Cleric casts Protection on Fighter

The DM thought of this as metagaming, probably because in their mind actions 1 to 3 have no observable characteristic and at no point the fighter actually did anything to attack party members.

Of course the point is kind of moot since casting the protection spell on the fighter is a sensible thing to do from an in-game perspective anyway.

[Crake]

This, boys and girls, is why everyone should invest in slotless protection from evil pills for 8,000gp that you swallow and forget about (until your body is destroyed and you've been resurrected/reincarnated)


As I understood the situation it went like this:

1. Vampire Dominates Fighter
2. Vampire and mentally commands Fighter to attack party members
3. Fighter gets another save but fails
4. Cleric casts Protection on Fighter

The DM thought of this as metagaming, probably because in their mind actions 1 to 3 have no observable characteristic and at no point the fighter actually did anything to attack party members.

Of course the point is kind of moot since casting the protection spell on the fighter is a sensible thing to do from an in-game perspective anyway.

Points of contention you should bring to your DM:

Knowledge (Religion) by the cleric should likely tell you that vampires can mind control with a gaze.

The vampire dominate gaze attack takes an action, it's not a passive gaze effect. Thus the vampire must have taken a few seconds to gaze into the fighter's eyes, at which point he becomes dominated. This is an observable characteristic.

It's a DC15 sense motive check to identify that someone is under the effects of a compulsion, absent of anyone else casting a compulsion, it is a reasonable assumption to say that he's been dominated by the vampire. This is also an observable characteristic.

[DM_reek]

Well, the main use for the Protection from X spells IS to be an emergency button to press in those situations where one of your companions gets hit by a mind control effect. Arguing that "suppresses the effect" does somehow not suppress the whole effect seems just spiteful.

Look at it this way: a dominate effect does not just create a telepathic link between dominator and target to issue commands, but also an ongoing compulsion to follow those commands. And this compulsion is part of the effect that is being suppressed by a Protection from X spell. So sure, the target remembers getting the commands that were issued before the Protection effect came into place, but without the compulsion the target does not need to follow them.

The emergency button is "break enchantment" a fifth level spell that is capable of negating a fourth. I'd argue that anyone using a first level protection from x to defeat a fourth level dominate is really creating a soft encounter. A vampire should be capable of wreaking havoc on a first level party that hasn't already cast protection. Spiteful?? I don't understand how you inferred that. Additionally your description of the telepathic link being the channel for ongoing compulsion is totally fabricated by your imagination as I can find nothing that supports the theory. Of I were playing in a game you DM and you said that I'd give you major kudos on creativity but raw isn't going to support that.

To speak metaphorically, if you launched a guided missile and we're able to use raido control to alter telemetry and some other party jammed out the signal and robbed you of the ability to change course then that missile would stay on the original programmed course. It wouldn't change direction.

I feel that a dominated creature is a guided weapon or instrument. The description of the subjects limited scope causing a simple DC sense motive check would seem to support the idea.

Thank you for your feedback and believe me, I do listen.

[John Longarrow]

I think your missing the fundamental issue regarding protection from evil VS domination. The spell suppresses the effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) for the duration protection from evil is up.

Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) would remove the domination.

If your argument were true Protection from Energy shouldn't protect from a cone of cold spell since the cone of cold is a higher level spell. Per Protection from Energy it does, even if it doesn't grant immunity to every cold attack the player receives, only the first Y (where Y is based on total damage done to the limit of protection from energies limit based on caster level).

[DM_reek]

This, boys and girls, is why everyone should invest in slotless protection from evil pills for 8,000gp that you swallow and forget about (until your body is destroyed and you've been resurrected/reincarnated)



Points of contention you should bring to your DM:

Knowledge (Religion) by the cleric should likely tell you that vampires can mind control with a gaze.

The vampire dominate gaze attack takes an action, it's not a passive gaze effect. Thus the vampire must have taken a few seconds to gaze into the fighter's eyes, at which point he becomes dominated. This is an observable characteristic.

It's a DC15 sense motive check to identify that someone is under the effects of a compulsion, absent of anyone else casting a compulsion, it is a reasonable assumption to say that he's been dominated by the vampire. This is also an observable characteristic.

I'm posting more about the rules related to dominate person and protection than the meta game activities. I could care less that he meta gamed, that's easy to address. I can say without a doubt that he meta gamed because 1) that character never met a vampire before and 2) he had no ranks in knowledge religion. 3)Had he used sense motive he wouldn't have been able to do anything for 10 rounds as sense motive takes one minute.

The same round I used dominate, he cast on his turn. He immediately cast protection once he saw that I intended to order the fighter to attack. The very best players will do the same thing when they feel compromised. It's human nature and I don't let it bother me, I just keep the game going forward.

Thank you for your feedback

[Zombimode]

The emergency button is "break enchantment" a fifth level spell that is capable of negating a fourth.

Break Enchantment is there to deal with the problem permanently. Protection from X is there to take you through a fight. That's all it does. A Domination effect will last for days. Minute/lvl duration Protection effects only offer very much temporary solution.

Also, there is no pattern of offense-defense power level relation that would be broken by Protection. Do you know what Protection spells also do? It prevents summoned creatures from touching and with that attacking you with natural weapons. Summon Monster IX is a 9th level spell. An Elder Earth Elemental summoned with SM IX can't do squat against a creature protected by a Protection from X spell cast by a 1st level cleric. Are you arguing against that too?



I'd argue that anyone using a first level protection from x to defeat a fourth level dominate is really creating a soft encounter. A vampire should be capable of wreaking havoc on a first level party that hasn't already cast protection.

Like that would ever be in question. If you really want to reduce a vampire on the dominating gaze, how many Protection spells are available to the 1st level party at any one time?
But ignoring that, the Vampire still flies, has damage reduction, fast heal, level draining, plus whatever class abilities the vampire had in life (at least 4th level).
If you are worried that this reading of the Protection spells would result in Vampires not worth their CR let me reassure you: it doesn't.



Spiteful?? I don't understand how you inferred that.

If that's not what is is I apologize. But normally a DM denying their players an ability because he/she simply don't like how this ability works is just that: spiteful.


[/QUOTE]Additionally your description of the telepathic link being the channel for ongoing compulsion is totally fabricated by your imagination as I can find nothing that supports the theory. Of I were playing in a game you DM and you said that I'd give you major kudos on creativity but raw isn't going to support that.[/QUOTE]

I will give you that it not written in those exact words. But lets check the facts: it DOES establish a telepathic link which IS used to control the actions of the target. It IS classified as an compulsion effect AND one that establishes ONGOING (look at the spell description of Protection from Evil where Dominate Person is explicitly called out as such) control over the target.



To speak metaphorically, if you launched a guided missile and we're able to use raido control to alter telemetry and some other party jammed out the signal and robbed you of the ability to change course then that missile would stay on the original programmed course. It wouldn't change direction.

I feel that a dominated creature is a guided weapon or instrument. The description of the subjects limited scope causing a simple DC sense motive check would seem to support the idea.

This analogy fails because an guided weapon is not a free actor. The target of a Domination effect is. If the domination effect is suppressed why would the target NOT revert to a free actor again? The target would REMEMBER that it got an order to do whatever but why should it actually follow this order if there is nothing that compels it to do so?

[DM_reek]

If your character is dominated, but the effect is SUPPRESSED, then you are not dominated while the compulsion is in effect. Any protection or magic circle spell saves the pc from compulsion for the duration. Good thing they killed :smallsmile:yourvampire!

I get where you are coming from but we have to look at the spell "dominate person" as well. Changing a command is a move action and received mental information requires a concentration check. That illustrates that the spell has instant effects. Once the command is forced it's there in his head and being acted on immediately. In addition the suppression description is in the second sentence of the paragraph detailing the warding of a protected creature from attempts to exercise control. I argue that control had already been exercised and the results are not included in the vague suppression statement. The ability to issue new commands and receive mental communication is suppressed.

The final paragraph of the dominate person description clearly states: protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.

The domination is established, the command is in place and being acted on, no other orders can be given. If they want it to go away cast break enchantment.

1st level spells don't counteract fourth levels spells but a fifth would.

Any debate or suggestions are welcome and encouraged. Thank you guys.

[kellbyb]

The emergency button is "break enchantment" a fifth level spell that is capable of negating a fourth. I'd argue that anyone using a first level protection from x to defeat a fourth level dominate is really creating a soft encounter. A vampire should be capable of wreaking havoc on a first level party that hasn't already cast protection. Spiteful?? I don't understand how you inferred that. Additionally your description of the telepathic link being the channel for ongoing compulsion is totally fabricated by your imagination as I can find nothing that supports the theory. Of I were playing in a game you DM and you said that I'd give you major kudos on creativity but raw isn't going to support that.

Break Enchantment's minute casting time makes it unviable as an emergency button, you need an immediate solution or at the very least mitigation. Protection from Evil will give you the needed buffer to get to a point of safety, be it through defeating or simply escaping the vampire, but after that you do need a more permanent solution, which is where Break Enchantment is needed.

[John Longarrow]

DM_reek, gotta ask this because it may clearly define why most of us believe your call is wrong.

What game mechanic causes the player's character to act upon a command given to them when dominated? If you properly identify the game mechanic I believe you will see why we are questioning your call.

[Zanos]

I get where you are coming from but we have to look at the spell "dominate person" as well. Changing a command is a move action and received mental information requires a concentration check.
There's nothing about a concentration check in the spell.


That illustrates that the spell has instant effects. Once the command is forced it's there in his head and being acted on immediately. In addition the suppression description is in the second sentence of the paragraph detailing the warding of a protected creature from attempts to exercise control. I argue that control had already been exercised and the results are not included in the vague suppression statement. The ability to issue new commands and receive mental communication is suppressed.
No, both protection from x and dominate person indicate that the control is ongoing. Protection of Evil blocks the control entirely.



The final paragraph of the dominate person description clearly states: protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.

Correct. You can use dominate on someone under a protection from x, and if they fail their save they will fall under your control when the duration of the protection from X expires.



The domination is established, the command is in place and being acted on, no other orders can be given. If they want it to go away cast break enchantment.

No. Dominate person is blocked and suppressed for the duration of protection from x.



1st level spells don't counteract fourth levels spells but a fifth would.

This is a rule that you made up. Lower level spells can counteract the effects of higher level spells. Dispel magic, a 3rd level spell, could remove a 9th level spell on a good dispel check roll, and it could fail to remove a 1st level spell on a bad roll.

[Mato]

"Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent the character from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but it does not prevent the establishment of domination or dispel it."

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)

The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.
I hope you don't mind but fixed one of your rule quotes for you.

[Crake]

I get where you are coming from but we have to look at the spell "dominate person" as well. Changing a command is a move action and received mental information requires a concentration check. That illustrates that the spell has instant effects. Once the command is forced it's there in his head and being acted on immediately. In addition the suppression description is in the second sentence of the paragraph detailing the warding of a protected creature from attempts to exercise control. I argue that control had already been exercised and the results are not included in the vague suppression statement. The ability to issue new commands and receive mental communication is suppressed.

You know that by this logic, if you give someone a command with dominate person, they still need to follow the command when the spell ends.

[druid zook]

DM_reek, gotta ask this because it may clearly define why most of us believe your call is wrong.

What game mechanic causes the player's character to act upon a command given to them when dominated? If you properly identify the game mechanic I believe you will see why we are questioning your call.

Would it be Enchantment (Compulsion)?

[druid zook]

"Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent the character from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but it does not prevent the establishment of domination or dispel it."

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth."

See I read it as the dominator loses the ability to give commands not that the given command was suppressed.

Is it also your contention that the Fighter will resume trying to kill the Cleric after the Protection spell ends even if the vampire is destroyed?

[John Longarrow]

Would it be Enchantment (Compulsion)?

Are you referencing the Enchantment (Compulsion) spell effect from a spell with a duration other than Instant?

[druid zook]

You entered a question in the thread about what's the game mechanic and I took a guess. Do you have any idea what is the solution to dm_reek's question? Or mine? That was all I was getting at.
(Directed at John Longarrow.)

[John Longarrow]

Since Dominate Person isn't an Instantaneous spell, it doesn't have the benefit of "The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting."

Spell is cast, spell has a duration. At the end of the duration the spells effects end.

Since Protection from Evil "suppresses the effect" then the effect of being dominated is suppressed for the duration of Protection from Evil. There would not be 'long-lasting' consequences. This is much like how Break Enchantment "frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses" and would remove the command.

If protection from evil didn't affect the current command given to a dominated creature, neither would break enchantment. For that matter if the compulsion didn't end with the spell you could dominate someone ONCE and tell them to be a fanatically loyal servant and they'd be stuck as such even after the duration of the spell ended.

[Mordaedil]

I always thought it went like this: If you have protection from evil cast on you and encounter a vampire, the domination gaze will just be blocked as long as you are under the protection spell, but once expired, the vampire can attempt another gaze if it is still alive and around. But if you encounter a vampire and get dominated and then get protection of evil cast on you, it gets suppressed for the duration of the spell, but once protection expires, you fall back under control of the vampire.

At least, that seems to be what I read when I read the rule.

[lord_khaine]

This, boys and girls, is why everyone should invest in slotless protection from evil pills for 8,000gp that you swallow and forget about (until your body is destroyed and you've been resurrected/reincarnated)

Would point out that a) If you forget about it you will lose it, as what goes in does come out a day later or so.
And b) A custom magical item like that is not even possible without express GM permission.

[Mordaedil]

It's a joke about the morning after pill.

But it also follows the rules fine on making potions of protections from alignment just in an alternate form. It's just taking another visual form and no DM is going to contest it unless you try to argue that it's somehow not impacted by the same penalties as taking a potion.

[DM_reek]

There's nothing about a concentration check in the spell.

There is no check required but you should re-read that spell. You have to spend a standard action concentrating to get information via the link.

[DM_reek]

If your argument were true Protection from Energy shouldn't protect from a cone of cold spell since the cone of cold is a higher level spell. Per Protection from Energy it does, even if it doesn't grant immunity to every cold attack the player receives, only the first Y (where Y is based on total damage done to the limit of protection from energies limit based on caster level).

I feel this actually supports my claim. If protection from energy is cast BEFORE taking damage then the immunity grants benefits however if you were blasted by cold then cast protection from energy you wouldn't be healed.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I've discussed it with my group and have decided that the breaks should always come down on the side of the players. I will accept that dominate is TOTALLY suppressed by protection and begin working it into the game. From now on I'll focus my dominate on clerics and spell casters and just hope they roll low on their will saves rather than the fighters and barbarians who I'll just hit with phantasmal killer. In the end it's all about the group and everyone enjoying the game.

[DM_reek]

Kick rocks Charlie lol, stop stalking me.

[Zanos]

There is no check required but you should re-read that spell. You have to spend a standard action concentrating to get information via the link.
Concentrating on a spell and concentration the skill are separate mechanics.

[Elkad]

It's not meta, even without observing the vamp. The party could be sitting around the dinner table when it happened.

A friend suddenly goes nutso and starts attacking his team.
Guessing that he's possessed or dominated or something is a perfectly rational leap.