Undead as subracial option for players

[Marcloure]

I'm design a post-apocalyptic "Darksouls"-esque and "MadMax"-esque world. There, the undead is a common faction of the civilization, and have their own city and "lifes" to attend to (something like "Kamisama no Inai Nichiyoubi").
So, as DM, I'll let my players be an undead if they want. I took advantage of this option to penalize and limit revival, so death, for and of PC and NPC, starts to have real meaning.
To contextualize a bit, being an undead is a dishonor and unholyness in the eyes of most people and for the Empire of Sun. So, there are undead hunters all over the tiny world. If any of you are interesting in the world itself, here is a full post about it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510561-The-Wasted-Lands&p=21543341#post21543341

Here are my frist thoughts about the undead for players and NPC:
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Beign an undead is a possibility for any race.
Choosing to be an undead can be done at the creation of the character.
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It must be a valid choice for any class, maybe not completely balanced, but not bad or obligatory.
Being an undead isn't in the intention of gaining or losing numbers.
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Overall, an undead is a little weaker in-combat, but tougher against survival conditions.
Undeads are immune to effects that doesn't affect undead, as Cure Wounds or Harm, and are vulnerable to those effects that does affect undead, as Turn Unholy and the bonus damage from Divine Smite. Overall, I think it's worse than better for the character.
Undeads don't need to drink or eat (they still need to breath). They are not immune to poison, charm, so on, so forth. They can never reach 6th level of Exhaustion and they recover half their Exhaustion level (rounded down) per long rest.
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A character shall become undead if it dies and come back to life many times.
The frist way I thought to do this, was through Wisdom loss. Everytime a character dies, he would lose 2 points of Wisdom score. If that character has 4 Wisdom score or less, he become an undead at the next sunset. This way, I kind of put the options: "dump Wis and has less chances to revive, be a Wis user, or waste some points on it". A character could forgo the ability loss by becoming an undead at any time he died, or at the Character creation.
Thing is, even if dying would be a common thing, losing 2 Wis score being a Monk or Cleric hits the character way harder then losing 1 out of 2 "living-lifes" for the barbarian with Wis 8. So, I promptly give up to do this way.

I came with 2 other ways. The frist, whenever a character dies he loses 2 points of the smaller Mental Atribute. None of the classes needs all Mental Atributes, and now even barbarians had a reason to pump up Int/Wis/Cha. But then, he would need to have a 9 in all three atributes for a bonus life. And I am not sure if punishing too hard will be fun. No one likes to lose Atribute Score.

The second way, and the best in my opinion, is to create a new atribute: Soul. In this system, almost everyone has the same chances of dying.

A living mortal (basic races) has 12 Soul score;
a superior undead (lich, mummy lord, player undead option) has 8;
an inferior undead (skeleton, zombie) has 0;
a lost undead (wright, wrath, banshee) has 3;
a living semi-planar (tiefling, Aasimar, Genasi) has 13;
and a living immortal (Devil, angel, Genie) has 15.

When any of those dies, that person loses 2 Soul points. If, somehow, it is brought back to life, it's new "Soul power" is that of a creature inferior to what he once was. The mortals are said to always have a second chance, so they have 12 Soul score. The semi-planar are one step closer to immortality (in my setting at least), so they have 1 more chance.
A player loses control of his character when it reaches 3 or less Soul score, so the game has a limit for how many times someone can die (2 times as undead + 1/2 times being mortal).
If the player choses to start as an undead, he has 8 Soul score.
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Undead are virtually immortal.
Undead can't be revived, but they always come back to "life" at sunset. They then has 2 Souls score less than they had, as explained above.
If an undead reaches 0 Soul point, it has no more Soul (don't you say), what is left is just an empty cask.



I have also thought of other stuff to add, but maybe it's an overextension:
- Undead always starts with 1 success and 1 failure at Death Saving Throws (for what reason?).
- Undead has Darksoul Touch, a per long rest ability which drains some hp from target. As an undead can't be healed by teammates, they may need something like this.
- Maybe some way to recover Soul, to a maximum of 6. Dealing a killing blow with Darksouls Touch? This way, undead people would start to hunt and killing living people, so they don't "go hollow", and they could potentially "live and die" forever.
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I would like to hear any thought you guys may have about this. Also suggestions, tips, maybe someone have done something similiar.

[JeenLeen]

I'll respond to your thoughts as numbered.

#1 and #2: excellent goals for a balanced option

#3: Reasonable, although as D&D is focused on combat (at least at most tables, so I hear), this might make them an overall inferior choice. However, what you have about reviving may counteract this enough.
I don't see why undead would need to breathe. Maybe drop that? I could see adding a caveat that they need to breathe to talk (i.e., can breathe), but requiring it seems odd.

#4: I think definitely go with the Soul score. Otherwise, dying just stinks too much (generally not fun), and 5e seems to try to do away with penalties for revival.

(I also think you should always let a PC just die instead of come back as undead, so a player isn't stuck with the same PC until it dies twice, if they'd rather play a new one, but that could be table-to-table variant on how revival works.)

#5: Sounds cool, and general with undead.

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With this setting, how do people become undead? (I don't know the Dark Souls games.) If a PC dies, will they rise as undead automatically or is this a special spell/ritual?
Also, I gather the undead a PC becomes is not a typical undead from the PHB or MM, but rather a unique thing, like necropolitans back in 3.5. Correct?



- Undead always starts with 1 success and 1 failure at Death Saving Throws (for what reason?).
- Undead has Darksoul Touch, a per long rest ability which drains some hp from target. As an undead can't be healed by teammates, they may need something like this.
- Maybe some way to recover Soul, to a maximum of 6. Dealing a killing blow with Darksouls Touch? This way, undead people would start to hunt and killing living people, so they don't "go hollow", and they could potentially "live and die" forever.

On the death saving throws: having died, they are closer to dying again, but also their bodies are more durable. Hence just 2 successes or 2 failures lead to stabilizing or dying.
Seems a bit contradictory, but, if you want it, that's a justification, if not a good one. But not necessarily a good reason to add this layer of complication to the rules.

Darksoul Touch may make undead PCs better overall.
For mechanical consistency, I can see making this a cantrip that undead naturally gain. Not sure if a caster class should have access to it or not. Something like melee spell attack (so add proficiency bonus), with base 1d4 or 1d6 necrotic damage, which increases as you level up. Recover half the damage dealt as HP.
Although it being a cantrip might be too dangerous, and if it's linked to 'recover soul' mechanic, then, well, some player will keep slaves to recover soul with (as will living if you let them get access to the spell via a feat or a class.)

Maybe instead of a cantrip, a level 1 spell, but undead can use it x times/short rest. I'm thinking 3 for some reason, but once might be better.

[Arkhios]

There's revenant (a character with unfinished business brought back from the dead) from Gothic Heroes unearthed arcana. With a little refluffing, it could fit for your needs. It even has the rules to stamp it on every race.

[Marcloure]

I'll respond to your thoughts as numbered.

#3: Reasonable, although as D&D is focused on combat (at least at most tables, so I hear), this might make them an overall inferior choice. However, what you have about reviving may counteract this enough.
I don't see why undead would need to breathe. Maybe drop that? I could see adding a caveat that they need to breathe to talk (i.e., can breathe), but requiring it seems odd.

About undead needing to breath, I do agree that it seems odd. But it was to not make them immune to Stinking Cloud or similar effects from traps and other spells. Also, so they can't ignore drowning or other means of suffocation.
I know this kind of situation isn't all that common, and that if a single member of the group isn't an undead, everyone should concern with the situation. I may reconsider this characteristic.


#4: I think definitely go with the Soul score. Otherwise, dying just stinks too much (generally not fun), and 5e seems to try to do away with penalties for revival.

(I also think you should always let a PC just die instead of come back as undead, so a player isn't stuck with the same PC until it dies twice, if they'd rather play a new one, but that could be table-to-table variant on how revival works.)

If the character is not an undead (has 9+ Soul), he won't come back to life unless someone casts Revive or other spell on the dead. If the character is an undead, he can't be brought back by magic, but he automatically comes back to life at sunset. But the character only turns into undead for the frist time, if he has 8- Soul and then is revived by magic.
If a player want to play a new character, I let him swap his character. His old one usually becomes NPC, so the player or I can come back to him later.


With this setting, how do people become undead? (I don't know the Dark Souls games.) If a PC dies, will they rise as undead automatically or is this a special spell/ritual?
Also, I gather the undead a PC becomes is not a typical undead from the PHB or MM, but rather a unique thing, like necropolitans back in 3.5. Correct?

Summing the setting, the gods were killed by the mortals, so the souls have no place to return when its body dies. When a soul is brought back to life it has less strength than it had, till the point where it can't sustain a true life, only undeath, and can't even "go away" from that body. More cicles, and the soul loses its will. A bit more, and the soul is destroyed forever.
So, people become undead if they're revived at a point where their Soul is too weak (8- Soul Score). But this is only the "fated way" to become undead. All those profanes rituals to turn into a Lich, Vampire or Mummy Lord still exists. There is also a curse that spreads, turning people into undead even without ressurection, but I haven't fully developed that yet.
And yes, this undead the PC can be is not the undead from MM, but a especial type.

Just for clarification, the gods hunted the living and ate their souls in the past. That is way the souls weren't free back them, and way people killed the called Savage Gods.


On the death saving throws: having died, they are closer to dying again, but also their bodies are more durable. Hence just 2 successes or 2 failures lead to stabilizing or dying.
Seems a bit contradictory, but, if you want it, that's a justification, if not a good one. But not necessarily a good reason to add this layer of complication to the rules.

Completely agree. That was just something that past by my head, and the justification I had was similiar to yours.


Darksoul Touch may make undead PCs better overall.
For mechanical consistency, I can see making this a cantrip that undead naturally gain. Not sure if a caster class should have access to it or not. Something like melee spell attack (so add proficiency bonus), with base 1d4 or 1d6 necrotic damage, which increases as you level up. Recover half the damage dealt as HP.
Although it being a cantrip might be too dangerous, and if it's linked to 'recover soul' mechanic, then, well, some player will keep slaves to recover soul with (as will living if you let them get access to the spell via a feat or a class.)

Maybe instead of a cantrip, a level 1 spell, but undead can use it x times/short rest. I'm thinking 3 for some reason, but once might be better.

I don't pretend to let living people to recover Soul so easily, if there even is a way.
I'm not sure about letting Darksouls Touch be a cantrip if it recovers Soul, but it's a valid option if it does not. Maybe, if is possible to regain only 1 Soul per day, I can let it as a cantrip.

[Marcloure]

There's revenant (a character with unfinished business brought back from the dead) from Gothic Heroes unearthed arcana. With a little refluffing, it could fit for your needs. It even has the rules to stamp it on every race.

Yeah, I'm aware of the Revenant. But the only thing that it has is a light regeneration and the revival trait. Also, the adaptation for races that don't have subclasses is limited, as a playtest, to Human, Dragonborn, and Tiefling.
The traits don't really bring the feeling of being undead, in my vision. So I'm better trying my luck homebrewing something.

[ChildofLuthic]

I like the idea of a soul score and the idea of the Darksoul Touch to regain soul. My only suggestion would be to not make Darksoul Touch not too powerful of an attack, so that it isn't a good idea to become undead for the sake of a natural weapon. Maybe 1d4 necrotic damage, no modifier?

Then the only safe way to Darksoul Touch is against someone who is defenseless. Of course, that's also kind of evil.

[Scaileanna]

I like the idea of a soul score and the idea of the Darksoul Touch to regain soul. My only suggestion would be to not make Darksoul Touch not too powerful of an attack, so that it isn't a good idea to become undead for the sake of a natural weapon. Maybe 1d4 necrotic damage, no modifier?

Then the only safe way to Darksoul Touch is against someone who is defenseless. Of course, that's also kind of evil.

i like this idea, mainly cause i enjoyed being a darkwraith in darksouls and using the dark hand to "kiss of death" people's humanity out, so it would be make perfect sense to make it something to use on weaker/helpless victims or if wanting to use it as an actual practical combat move make that one limited as well as scale with level and modifiers and recover soul (maybe increased soul regain) an make a weaker version for non-combat, for the dying/helpless, use that harvests no soul (or very little amounts) and of course both versions recover some health on use so the undead has hp recovery out of resting, but it should't be for the living unless you "steal" this power from and undead (like the dark hand in dark souls)

personal thought for the soul attribute system, superior undead shouldn't really lose soul when they die as they chose that existence through a dark ritual and that should bind their soul such as the lich which is it's whole thing with the phylactery and such as well as immortals shouldn't be able to lose souls since their immortal and thus don't actually die in the real sense of the word
just my 2 cents not decreeing or anything cause as always "to each their own"

[Marcloure]

personal thought for the soul attribute system, superior undead shouldn't really lose soul when they die as they chose that existence through a dark ritual and that should bind their soul such as the lich which is it's whole thing with the phylactery and such as well as immortals shouldn't be able to lose souls since their immortal and thus don't actually die in the real sense of the word
just my 2 cents not decreeing or anything cause as always "to each their own"

In fact, that is a very valid point. I shall do by your way.
Thanks.

[Marcloure]

If any of you are interesting in the world itself, here is a full post about it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510561-The-Wasted-Lands&p=21543341#post21543341