[THEORETICAL] Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge help

[danielxcutter]

1. If you use Practiced Manifester, you can get double 9ths, right?

2. What mantles/domains go well together both in fluff and crunch?

3. Any other advice in general?

[PacMan2247]

1. Not pre-epic. You need to be effectively 17th level in each class for 9th level spells/powers; finishing the bare minimum requirements and ten levels of psychic theurge puts you at level 16 with casting/manifesting as though you were 13 in each class. Caster level doesn't affect this. As a general thing, I personally have no issue whatsoever with continuing a prestige class beyond ten levels before reaching epic levels, particularly when it's a prestige class like this with both perfectly clear progression and no diminishing returns for the character; I may be misremembering the Epic Level Handbook, but I think that, RAW, that sort of progression is meant to be held off until epic levels.

2. I'm terrible at answering this sort of question without knowing what sort of character a person is looking to play. The Celerity Domain power and Freedom Mantle ability each provide an untyped +10 bonus to speed, so those can be nice.

3. Time Mantle.

[Technetium43]

You would need to be Ardent 3/Cleric 3/Whatever Divine PrC 4/Psychic Theurge 10, and you would only have access to both the 9ths and level 20, but yes you could get double 9ths. Also, make use of the Mind's Eye Ardent ACFs, though I assume you're already aware of them.

[PacMan2247]

Mmm, yes. Technetium43 is right, order would matter. Having the four levels available for Practiced Manifester to make up would let you take a 9th-level power if Psychic Theurge 10 was your 20th level.

Sorry about that. Got concussed by a toddler a little while ago.

[danielxcutter]

You would need to be Ardent 3/Cleric 3/Whatever Divine PrC 4/Psychic Theurge 10, and you would only have access to both the 9ths and level 20, but yes you could get double 9ths. Also, make use of the Mind's Eye Ardent ACFs, though I assume you're already aware of them.

I'm thinking of the Dominant Mantle ACF. I believe the "pimp my mantle" ACF may not be viable at some tables, but Dominant Mantle is less likely to be subject to that.


Mmm, yes. Technetium43 is right, order would matter. Having the four levels available for Practiced Manifester to make up would let you take a 9th-level power if Psychic Theurge 10 was your 20th level.

Sorry about that. Got concussed by a toddler a little while ago.

Ouch. :smalleek:

As for what character, I'm not sure about playstyle - would gish or caster be more fun for this kind of character? I think that something that emphasizes having both sides being focused on one cause/ideal would be more appropriate, though.

[Technetium43]

I mean, your BAB and HP are going to be awful, and you're free to pump wis as much as you want, so I would actually suggest more of a caster build than a gish build.

[Rebel7284]

If you use the RAW reading that Ardents can learn powers based on their manifester level, it works (and is really silly on a pure ardent who boosts their ML in any number of ways.)

I will point out that Ardent 4/Good Fort Save Class 1/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Ardent 5 is pretty effective.
Or of course Ardent 9/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Ardent 1

[danielxcutter]

I mean, your BAB and HP are going to be awful, and you're free to pump wis as much as you want, so I would actually suggest more of a caster build than a gish build.

Well, there is Divine Power... But yeah, caster seems more efficient.

[Vaz]

Sorry about that. Got concussed by a toddler a little while ago.

I'm picturing someone just throwing a weaponised toddler at you now.

What mantles are you intending to use? Standard mantles suck, but you can pomp these out as much as you want with the ACF. Some of the main tricks an Ardent can get up to are limited to Dominant Mantle (hello, linked Synchronicity/Bestow Power, etc) but you don't have that as a Cleric.

The Alternative is Ardent 4/Good Fort 1 (I like Dragon Shaman for Fast Heal)/Ur-Priest 9/ardent +6

It only leaves you with only 8ths in Divines, but you get Dominant Mantle and 9ths in Psionics. You could drop Dominant Mantle for 9ths in Divine though, but at that stage Divine Theurge is simpler.

Cleric 3/Ardent 2/Divine Theurge 10 gets you at ECL15 Cleric 7ths and Psionic 8ths over 3 Mantles. You need 4 more Cleric Levels and 2 more manifester levels; luckily, one of those comes from Practised Manifester, so only one Ardent level. There is sadly no 3.5 Full Psionic PrC outside of Cerebremancer or Divine Theurge, so you are stuck with Ardent 3.

You can try and cheese things with Magic Mantle, letting practised spellcaster grant +4 Manifester as well, but thats never succeeded anywhere I've played at a table.

Without any idea of your ideal powers you want to pick up, I'll suggest the obvious one; Time. People who play Psionics get to play around with Time in a Way in which spellcasters only wish, and can do it earlier.

Time often goes well with Fate. Gods and Goddesses of Fate, and Inevitavitability could go very well together. I'd suggest a Necro-focused Undead, but don't advise it. You already have twice the action economy of everyone else who is at the table. Taking more of it up for your undead horde is just rude.

If you want just one big dude with you, that is not so bad but they often have a plethora of options in any case.

The other option is that you are a Cleric/Psionic; the two classes needed to make the Save Point trick work.

Essentially, you cast imbue with spell ability "Status" on the Psicrystal, then fest a power called Forced Dream, which allows you to restart to any point during the turn on your Psicrystal. You then fest Time Hop on it into the future. When it reappears, it attempts to sense you alive, and if not triggers the forced dream, bringing you back to the point at which it went in got Timehopped to the future. You'll need a Contingent Anticipatory Stroke though.

Although Forced Dream only resets things to the beginning of the turn, for the Psicrystal, it only IS the start of its turn (Anticipatory Strike giving it additional action to sense you, when it rejoins the time stream then trigger the action if not).

That may be a bit heavy handed though, so you might just want to to sit with the DM and talk that through beforehand. I have had DM's who say 'You would do everything the same, unless you were told' (unless you order the Psicrystal to tell you after it triggered the Forced Dream and couldn't sense you, but he answered that with 'it wouldn't know, it was cast out of time stream, reappeared at an indeterminate time, would find you dead, then reset the universe back a few hours/minutes), and another who let me run that trick in game about 4 times before we actually died, and then after then said 'no worries, just permanently reduced your PP and spellslots for those appropriate, and we'll always assume you have it up, which was super cool.

Your party may not be cool with it though; it can escalate the game to Dark Souls level of stupid difficult bosses that you get to refight 3-5 times before you get an inkling of how to fight them.

Edit; Powers/Spells; Metamorphosis, Divine Power, Time Hop, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Bestow Power. Don't leave home without them.

Feats; metamorphic transfer, linked power, metapower (can maybe lose this), divine metamagic, metamagic(s) of choice, maybe Reserves of Strength (YMMV, depends if you/DM agrees with interpretation it bypasses the limit and adds up to +3, or adds up to +3 which may ignore limit, and also whether it applies to Psionics as well (may fall under abuse of magic/psionic transparency and otherwise require the cheesy interpretation of Magic mantle).

Also, these might be helpful; http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/psionic/illithids.shtml

There is a group of feats at the bottom. They suit arcane/blastery types more, but you may get some use out of them.

[PacMan2247]

I'm picturing someone just throwing a weaponised toddler at you now.

I've never encountered any other kind.