What makes a comic book/webcomic good or bad?

[yougi]

I am currently starting a webcomic, and I was wondering if you guys had any tips on what makes one especially good or bad. Plus, I guess it would make a quite interesting conversation! My own ideas:

-Good graphic (of course!)
-Imaginative plot
-In-depth and imaginative character design
-Make the story move at a good pace (but again, what is a good pace?)
-Logic decisions by characters
-Keeping things the same (I know there is a word for it, but, basically, not all of a sudden make your hero's powers different for no reason)
-Making people identify to your heroes (main reason why I dislike Batman; how can I be mad at someone for punching the hell out of Mr. Excentric Billionnaire?)
-Make your storylines different (again, probably a bad way to formulate it, but if stories always follow the same genre, a la door-monster-loot, people will get bored easily)

What are your opinions?

[Scientivore]

Good: Attractive art.
Good: Funny jokes and/or well-told stories.
Good: Daily updates.

Bad: Ugly and/or bland art.
Bad: Lame and/or excessively obscure jokes.
Bad: Self-contradicting and/or boring stories.
Bad: Less than weekly updates.

Since you're combining two artforms that are challenging in themselves, there's also a metaquality about how well the art works with the storytelling. Then there's another metaquality about how good it looks on a webpage, yet another one about how easy it is to navigate the archives, and so on.

Of course, it's a lot like the old jokes about how dates are "cute, single and sane: pick two" and software projects are "full-featured, on time and under budget: pick two". A well-drawn, well-written webcomic is not an easy thing to make, so they tend to update infrequently.

[jazz1m]

-Keeping things the same (I know there is a word for it, but, basically, not all of a sudden make your hero's powers different for no reason)


This is called continuity.

Things that make a good comic
Believable characters/worlds
even if you have super heroes or what not, you need some explanation as to why they have super powers (if no one else does) or explain why everyone is a super hero. A big part of making a comic believable is character interaction.
How do people react to each other? Study your friends, family, enemies, to get a better idea about this.

Dialogue
this is the main part of the comic and if you suck at dialogue, then your comic probably won't be that great.

Action
Not just fighting, but the action in each panel. It needs to match up, fit the characters, etc.

And obviously what's already been said.

[yougi]

there's also a metaquality about how well the art works with the storytelling.

That being having cartoon art for a comedy project and serious art for a serious one?


This is called continuity.

Wow. That was simple! Thanks!:smallwink:


Action
Not just fighting, but the action in each panel. It needs to match up, fit the characters, etc.

As weird as it might sound, I'm not sure I understand properly what you mean by action? Do you mean what happens in each panel, like how the action is split between panels?

And I have an extra question: Can comics that are half-serious, half-funny make something good, and if so, how must they be taken care of, in terms of both writing and art? By half-serious, half-funny, I mean that I plan to include humor, but it won't be the main purpose of the story. I might make a page that could have been left out for it is funny, but I don't plan on having a joke on every page. Will that cause a problem to the fan base?

I feel quite idiotic asking those questions about fans' reactions, since I am myself being a fan, but I always prefer to listen to other's opinions!:smallamused:

[Scientivore]

That being having cartoon art for a comedy project and serious art for a serious one?

Not exactly. If you compare Emergency Exit (which is very silly) with Parallel Dementia (which is very serious), they both have cartoon art. However, PD is literally darker. EE uses a lot of primary colors; when PD uses bright colors, they tend to be unnatural ones.

Going beyond that, the characters in PD don't smile as much because they don't have much to smile about. You get a lot of silent panels as someone eats cereal by himself, alone except for a cat, or rides a bus lost in thought. Also, for fighting you get art like an action shot of nightmarish monstrosities in mid-leap as the sound effect of automatic weapons fire rolls across the bottom of the panel. There's combat in EE too, but (IIRC) the actual art tends to be of the pauses for witty banter.

There are no pauses for witty banter in the combat in PD. IIRC, there was only one joke in its first 174 strips. It was told by a demon and no one even cracked a smile.

Going beyond those things, there's panel selection...umm...just a sec while I find...yeah. Check this out. (http://americangothic.comicgenesis.com/news/2007/03/22-panel-challenge.html) That's from the blog of *NSFW* American Gothic Daily (http://americangothic.comicgenesis.com/d/20061001.html).


And I have an extra question: Can comics that are half-serious, half-funny make something good, and if so, how must they be taken care of, in terms of both writing and art? By half-serious, half-funny, I mean that I plan to include humor, but it won't be the main purpose of the story. I might make a page that could have been left out for it is funny, but I don't plan on having a joke on every page. Will that cause a problem to the fan base?

Those two totally different comics that I mentioned, EE and PD? They had a six month long crossover with five updates a week...and it rocked hardcore. Sorcery 101 combines silly and serious, as do Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan, Sluggy Freelance, Narbonic -- for that matter, both of the comics on this site do it -- I could go on and on. But, I don't know how they do it. Someone else will have to answer that one.

As for whether there has to be a joke on every page, I would say no. Some people manage to do that in a story comic but I think that it's very unusual. It's normal for a story to have moods, like life does. Just don't give readers emotional whiplish by constantly flipping back and forth between goofy, menacing and melancholy like the most recent chapter of Dominic Deegan, "Snowsong".

Good luck! :smallsmile:

[yougi]

Well thank to both of you guys! That is some real good help here! Thanks especially to Scientivore for the 22 panels thing from AGD, that will help a lot. Good examples, and a whole lot to study!

[Indon]

I'd like to chime in with saying that I don't think quality of art is a significant factor like many seem to think it is.

Many, many people become hooked on a webcomic from its' early strips, and often with long-running webcomics, the distinction in artwork between current and old is absolutely massive; Adventurers! (www.adventurers-comic.com), Dominic Deegan (www.dominic-deegan.com), and El Goonish Shive (www.egscomics.com) all come to mind as comics whose artwork honestly isn't very good at the beginning, but people became and still become hooked anyway.

Rather, I think that in regards to artwork, the most important thing is decipherability; characters need to be distinct so people can tell them apart, their actions need to be clear, they need to properly convey character mood, etc. The actual graphic quality/refinement, I feel, is secondary to this.

[jazz1m]

As weird as it might sound, I'm not sure I understand properly what you mean by action? Do you mean what happens in each panel, like how the action is split between panels?


Yes action split between panels must match. So if some one is smoking a cigarette, they need to actually smoke it and maybe put it out.

There's also the dynamic between characters and the character's actions themselves. Each character should move different, act different so that people can tell the difference between them. As far as half-serious half-funny, look at zap in space or even penny and aggie. There are jokes to be had, but it's the backdrop of a more serious story.

[Lemur]

I agree with Indon about graphics, the quality of the drawings themselves isn't really a key point. Good art is nice, but a lot of art style is also subjective. Graphic coherency is more important, both in the drawings, and how the drawings are sequenced. There are comics that have good art, but don't make sense from one panel to another.

Also, there's something that I'm drawn to which I think is is more of personal thing, that I have difficulty explaining well. I think of it as a sense of "life" - the sense that a character, even if drawn standing still, could come alive and jump around at any moment. I wish I could quantify it better, but in some comics, no matter how well drawn, the characters look like statues, even if they're throwing each other across the panel, and I can't really get interested in them.

For webcomics, updating regularly is pretty important. This is less of a personal thing, since I read several webcomics that sporadically update. However, for gaining and keeping readers, updating consistently on the same days, at least 2 or 3 times a week is pretty important.

Regarding your question on humor and seriousness, yougi, you can make a humorous situation out of anything, but it's the kind of humor that matters. It won't matter if you have humor in a serious story, so long as the humor fits the situation and characters. Roy isn't going to hop around like Daffy Duck, but Elan might, for example. Vaarsuvius is almost constantly serious in attitude, but there's always humor with his character because of his relentlessly elaborate vocabulary. Also, if you're going for a more serious story, I'd say it's better to start off serious, since it's usually easier to go from serious to funny than from funny to serious. Comic relief usually helps serious stories from getting too heavy- even a really dark comic like Berserk has it's fair share of comic relief thrown in.

[Elliot Kane]

Characterisation, allied to a good character-driven plot. This is why so many people love OOTS, in fact :)

The art should be appropriate to the story, more than 'good' or 'bad' as such. A lot of what people like and dislike about art is very personal to them, and one person's great artist is another's eyesore.

At the end of the day, if you make people care about your characters you will find your readers will keep coming back.

Good luck :)

You may or may not find these useful (http://elliotkane.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=guide)

[Griemont]

Good: Attractive art.
Good: Funny jokes and/or well-told stories.
Good: Daily updates.

Bad: Ugly and/or bland art.
Bad: Lame and/or excessively obscure jokes.
Bad: Self-contradicting and/or boring stories.
Bad: Less than weekly updates.

Since you're combining two artforms that are challenging in themselves, there's also a metaquality about how well the art works with the storytelling. Then there's another metaquality about how good it looks on a webpage, yet another one about how easy it is to navigate the archives, and so on.

Of course, it's a lot like the old jokes about how dates are "cute, single and sane: pick two" and software projects are "full-featured, on time and under budget: pick two". A well-drawn, well-written webcomic is not an easy thing to make, so they tend to update infrequently.

NOTE: when writing all of the below, I had webcomics in mind more than normal comics.

I agree with all of this, but for a few changes.

Good art really doesn't matter to me too much; as long as you can clearly see what's happening it's fine with me. Although beautiful art like Erfworld's is nice, and the early VGcats and Penny Arcade art just gets on my nerves for some reason. I like it when a comic's art stays the same over time, although that's rarely the case. The major point that I wanted to make is that I don't like excessively attractive characters, especially female ones. I hate how most modern comics make female characters look like walking sex. It's hard to take them seriously when they all look and dress like porn stars on the job. :smallyuk:

Challenge: find for me a mainstream (Marvel or DC) female comic character that doesn't look like I just described. Ya gotta have proof, too. :smallwink:

And obscure jokes are fine, as long as
1. The subject matter is clearly stated, for example Concerned has a few obscure jokes, and the majority of it may not make sense to someone who hasn't played through the Half-Life series, but it's stated as such in the beginning, so people don't waste time trying to figure out a joke that they'd never get. While I've never played D&D (I know the basics, but my only real experience is with Icewind Dale), I understand most of OOTS, even though I accept that since it's a primarily D&D comic, some of the jokes will go over my head.
2. They're either explained (like what Penny Arcade does with newsposts) or are just callbacks of some sort to earlier strips. Personally, I love callbacks. :smallbiggrin:

Regular updates, while nice, aren't so much a priority for me, actually. It pains me that many comics are frequently late (if you're going to keep missing your deadlines, why post them), but of course I know that real life too often gets in the way, as Rich has so eloquently pointed out. :smallfrown:
I have to commend Ctrl-Alt-Del for continually updating on time with quality comics, although I know that Tim's probably just lucky that God reads his webcomic and doesn't want to interfere :smalltongue:

Actually the GiantITP duo are the only two comics that I read with a storyline. If it has one, it should be well planned (not on a comic by comic basis, but preplanned and well thought out), if not, fine.

[Khantalas]

Challenge: find for me a mainstream (Marvel or DC) female comic character that doesn't look like I just described. Ya gotta have proof, too. :smallwink:

I'd say Madame Web, but even she doesn't look that bad.

Or I'm just really perverted.

[Elliot Kane]

Originally Posted by Griemont
Challenge: find for me a mainstream (Marvel or DC) female comic character that doesn't look like I just described. Ya gotta have proof, too.

Kitty Pryde. Chance of seeing her in anything revealing is somewhere close to zero.

Other than that, though... Yeah. :D

[gatitcz]

When it comes to pacing, I think it depends on how often you update. Say, if you're only updating one page a week, one scene shouldn't really go over ten pages - that's over two months of real time for your readers. If you're updating five days a week, go for it; it's only two weeks.

Continuity/internal consistency/meta-consistency is a good thing. Don't change the rules in a big way, and don't let things come out of nowhere. Use foreshadowing, a panel of exposition - this requires that you know where you're going for at least the length of one act. Surprises are good, but if none are ever hinted at, it looks kind of chaotic.

Balancing serious parts with comedy is something you really have to figure out yourself - a lot of writers seem to throw up something lighter right after a big climax. Otherwise they use throwaway lines at midpoints and during exposition. Maybe a little banter if an action scene is getting too heavy (and whether or not it's "too heavy" will depend on what sort of mood you want to set). I imagine you mostly have to just go with your gut.

ETA: Oh, yeah. Either set a schedule and stick to it or get an RSS feed.

[yougi]

Thanks to Elliot Kane for the link! I found it pretty amazing!:smallsmile:

I also think all of your ideas are worth thinking about.


The major point that I wanted to make is that I don't like excessively attractive characters, especially female ones. I hate how most modern comics make female characters look like walking sex. It's hard to take them seriously when they all look and dress like porn stars on the job.

For that matter, I don't even know if I can make someone look attractive! But I think that nowadays, since 95% of teens are dressed like "walking sex", and since comics are basically targeted at teens or young adults (well, they are at everyone, but more at people between 15-25 or so), it's only fair for 95% of mainstream female character to look like such. The problem, in my opinion, is not in the comic, but in real like. Anyways, that is quite off-topic. I agree it is exaggerated.


ETA: Oh, yeah. Either set a schedule and stick to it or get an RSS feed.

I always hear about that. Now, risking to look like a fool, :mitd: What RSS feed do you guys keep on talking about?! or basically, what's an RSS feed?

[gatitcz]

Now, risking to look like a fool, :mitd: What RSS feed do you guys keep on talking about?! or basically, what's an RSS feed?

An RSS feed is something that lets you know whenever a website has updated. Safari (and I think Firefox) lets you know in the bookmarks bar - next to the bookmark a number shows up when there's been an update. I didn't use them when I used IE, so I don't know how it works there.

For a little more info:
How to make an RSS feed (http://www.wikihow.com/Create-an-RSS-Feed)
wikipedia article about RSS feeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rss_feed)

And the Giant's: feed://www.GiantITP.com/comics/comics.rss

[BanjoTheClown]

Shouldnt this Topic be in the Webcomics Forum?

[sealemon]

Major agreement on continuity. Whatever rules you establish in your universe, STICK WITH THEM. Don't make up crap just because it help you do something "cool" (See Agent Smith's return in The Matrix, Reloaded). To me, "cheating" is one of the top killers of a good story.

Also, keep in mind one of the basic rules of story telling: If it doesn't move the plot and/or subplot along, it should probably be edited out.

[Elliot Kane]

Thanks to Elliot Kane for the link! I found it pretty amazing!:smallsmile:

Thanks :) Took a lot of work, I don't mind admitting - so it's always nice when someone finds it useful :)

[horseboy]

For that matter, I don't even know if I can make someone look attractive! But I think that nowadays, since 95% of teens are dressed like "walking sex", and since comics are basically targeted at teens or young adults (well, they are at everyone, but more at people between 15-25 or so), it's only fair for 95% of mainstream female character to look like such. The problem, in my opinion, is not in the comic, but in real like. Anyways, that is quite off-topic. I agree it is exaggerated.


Ah, the "does art imitate life, or does life imitate art" debate, always fun.

I wish to vote for strong characters and continuity. They'll take care of anything else.
As far as alternating, from my own observations a page tends to be either a joke, exposition or a serious plot advancement. Not to say a plot advancement can't have a joke at the end, of course.

[Nocte]

I'm planning to make a web comic too soon.

Well, I think a good comic needs a good story and character development, continuity, etc.

I like great art but sometimes it's not highly necessary.

One thing that I think is very important for any project like a web comic is to be constant and update it frequently.

[Hushdawg]

A webcomic has exactly one chance to get me hooked.

One strip.

If I read the strip and I want to go back and re-read everything that came before it then it's a great strip.

If I read the strip and just go "eh" and move on
Then it sucks.

EVERY strip for OOTS is in that qualifier for me.
OOTS is like pizza, even when it's bad it's still pretty good!