a Not bladelock... would you allow...

[Spiritchaser]

Lets imagine for a moment that there is a player who wants a melee sorlock, but is not thrilled with the mechanics of the bladelock.

Let us also presume that the validity of his concern is not the topic of this thread, only the balance of the proposal

That being:

Instead of eldritch blast, he would like a cantrip that allowed him to make a melee spell attack doing 1d10 damage. This cantrip would scale identically with level as eldritch blast, ultimately allowing 4 strikes

Instead of agonizing blast, he would like an invocation that allowed charisma to be added to these strikes in an equivalent fashion as eldritch blast

The damage type would be force as per eldritch blast.

There would not be an identical invocation to repelling blast, instead there would be an invocation that permits some additional survivability. This is a big grey area and worth more discussion here.

The weapon type would be at the sorlock's discretion, although in this particular case it will be a glaive (which means reach)

It is expressly clear that these are spell attacks, not weapon attacks. There will be no interaction with the likes of magic weapon, hasten or sentinel etc. That wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

There would be no interaction with any weapon fighting style or feat that wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

If i were to allow him to happen across a rod of the pact keeper, it would add an identical bonus to his attacks as it would to eldritch blast.

Thoughts?

Edit: also, the intended attack stat is charisma, just like eldritch blast.

[ImSAMazing]

You could just give him a Invocation that allows him to not suffer from point-blank ranged E.B. attacks, and then refluff them to change them into slashes if in Melee. That will make it so that it is not extremely broken, if at all. It costs him an invocation, which is an resource he has quite a lot of, but has so much options it easily makes for a counterweight.

[Spellbreaker26]

If you don't want to go Bladelock, just go tome and pick up Shilleagh or Shocking Grasp as cantrips.

[ImSAMazing]

If you don't want to go Bladelock, just go tome and pick up Shilleagh or Shocking Grasp as cantrips.
Shillelagh also works, but that is only 1 attack and I figure the OP his player wants to be able to deal atleast a bit of damage, not be completely trivial.

[Spiritchaser]

The intent is for a primarily melee character, with melee damage exactly equivalent to what can be done with eldritch blast at range, with the full removal of eldritch blast as an option.

The reality is he could simply take crossbow expert and have his cake as well, but that is neither the character concept nor the mechanical goal.

One thing I did not specifically mention is that the intended attack stat would be charisma, exactly like eldritch blast.

[Spellbreaker26]

The intent is for a primarily melee character, with melee damage exactly equivalent to what can be done with eldritch blast at range, with the full removal of eldritch blast as an option.

The reality is he could simply take crossbow expert and have his cake as well, but that is neither the character concept nor the mechanical goal.

One thing I did not specifically mention is that the intended attack stat would be charisma, exactly like eldritch blast.

Pact of the tome, Shocking Grasp. It's a melee cantrip that gives advantage when used against foes wearing metal armour and prevents them from having reactions. Pact of the Tome means it's a Warlock spell. You don't get to add your charisma bonus to it, sure, but adding the spellcasting to the damage is a very rare bonus.

Or, you know, just get the crossbow expert feat and RP it away as his pact patron giving him enhanced reflexes. Using it for spells was intentional.

[Tanarii]

I think it's balanced. Changing it from Range 120ft to Range Touch, call it Eldritch Slash, fluff it as slashing with a blade of force. Allow an Agonizing Slash invocation.

I don't think they'd need a defensive invocation, since they already have access to False Life and Mage Armor at-will ... and because they'll be able to pump up Dex/Con instead of Str, which would normally be required for a Warlock to do EB-like damage. Maybe a followup invocation to the Mage Armor invocation (ie it's a prereq) that allows him to add a shield of force with +2 AC? (No clue if that's balanced, that's off the top of my head.)

(I love the Pact of the Blade warlock, but I find it hard to find much wrong with this proposal. Sacrificing ranged EB completely for better melee seems fine to me.)

[Ziegander]

I can't see any balance issues.

Makes you wonder why WotC hasn't thought of this already...

The only issue I have with it is that I can can't think of way to integrate Pact of the Blade with this to the benefit of both.

[Arcangel4774]

Maybe have it a new pact boon that he takes instead of pact of the blade. It's major function allows him to mutate eldritch blast into a weapon, removing the point blank penalty.

Of course you'd probably need to create some invocations to go with the new boon

[Tanarii]

Makes you wonder why WotC hasn't thought of this already...Probably because they want sub-classes to have features that build on the base chassis as opposed to remove capabilities it has.

I mean technically it doesn't remove anything. Warlocks don't HAVE to take the Eldritch Blast cantrip, after all. But the likelyhood of a player (as opposed to an NPC) doing that is pretty damn low. Even if they're Multiclassed.

I've mocked up single class max Str / low-ish Cha 14 Pact of the Blade Fiend Warlocks (single class even) just to see what it would look like, but I double I'd ever play it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's mildly imbalanced... in that it's a mild downgrade in your capabilities-- you're sacrificing the safety and control of a blastlock for... nothing but style, essentially. You'll do the same damage but splatter a lot more easily, even if you do have reach.

I second Arcangel4774's suggestion to make it a pact option. The Pact itself could change Eldrich Blast for "Eldrich Force," which downgrades from ranged to melee and requires both hands to be free, but offers the following options: change the force damage to blunt, piercing, or slashing; and gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. Then have a replacement for Repelling Blast that lets you pull enemies 10ft towards you before attacking them with the glaive.

[Spiritchaser]

It's mildly imbalanced... in that it's a mild downgrade in your capabilities-- you're sacrificing the safety and control of a blastlock for... nothing but style, essentially. You'll do the same damage but splatter a lot more easily, even if you do have reach.

The intent is to replace repelling blast with an invocation which would address the disadvantages of being in melee, much in the same way that repelling blast can protect a ranged warlock from melee.

Armor class, health, mobility, save bonuses, debuffs on strike, selfbuffs... all are on the table.

An invocation that functions, more or less like mobile would probably work, This would prevent anything he hit with his eldritch weapon from making opportunity attacks.

An invocation that adds 1-2 to AC and gives either advantage or expertise on acrobatics or athletics checks to avoid shoves and grapples might work.

An invocation that debuffs a foe's to hit might be fun

A con save bonus would be great for a warlock, however this particular character will most likely start as a sorcerer for that very reason...

This said, the same power would allow a start as warlock, providing a wis save proficiency, which is rather good too.


anyway, lots of options, not sure how much is needed.

[Spiritchaser]

Maybe have it a new pact boon that he takes instead of pact of the blade. It's major function allows him to mutate eldritch blast into a weapon, removing the point blank penalty.

Of course you'd probably need to create some invocations to go with the new boon

It is not his intent that this would require a pact of the blade. The pact boon is an additional power that would grant abilities.

The proposal is that this, in and of itself does not actually provide more power than any normal warlock's eldritch blast, in fact it provides slightly less

Now: if this were to require a pact, then that pact would also have to provide something else that was crudely equal in power to tome or chain. That is worth considering separately, but is not in fact what is proposed here.

As to what might be worth providing? presumably something that helps a warlock, or in this case a sorlock survive in melee.

[The Shadowdove]

Look at the existing mystic melee abilities as a basis. Perhaps using their scaling could be a good foundation.

An additional amount of d10s may or may not make it have balance issues without resources if it's on top of weapon damage. So a longswords 1d10+spell 1d10 at level 1 is kind of op. Especially as an unlimited resource. Even smite has limitations.

It may be a good idea to just make it a base damage for your pact weapon that scales at the same level Eldritch blast does in exchange for not learning the cantrip. That way the damage may or may not be more or less, but you don't have the problem with an extra die of damage from the start.

This follows balance of eb more. As your Eldritch blast cannot be fired as a longbow' ammunition for an addition d8+d10 each turn.



So a bladepact two-handed longsword would be 1d10 but become 2d10 and so on. Or 1d8 into 2d8 and so on one handed.


Edit: I see that I just reiterated the OP...Derp.


Well Eldritch blast can just be flavored RP wise to look however you like. A spell attack is a spell attack, which warrants the proper feats like any other class. It doesn't need any fanboy homebrew to be awesome.

A warlock can simple shoot a blast from his fist, foot, eyes, pelvic Thrust's, etc. Why not in the form of a blade visually while still functioning like normal eb? Then it'd be a creativity fix instead of a special ruling fix and still have the flavor/functionality .

[bid]

Or, you know, just get the crossbow expert feat and RP it away as his pact patron giving him enhanced reflexes. Using it for spells was intentional.
Yeah, just get CE and never use EB at range. Pure fluff.

[ApplePen]

Instead of pushing them back, have them save Vs trip? Would add to survivability somewhat, as he could then step back just like when a normal warlock is kiting

[CaptainSarathai]

The way I see it:
Swapping Eldritch Blast for a Melee Spell
Nothing essentially wrong here. He's shooting (stabbing?) himself in the foot, really, as Ranged>Melee. He's not gaining damage, he's not gaining any rider effects, and really, he's not even really boosting the damage on the weapon (if he's using a glaive, for a d10).

Now, the question becomes what Pact is he making? Because adding this to the Blade Pact isn't too bad, in fact, it makes Blade worse ironically, thanks to ditching the Extra Attack and not allowing any Bonus Action Attacks (PAM/Offhand, XBowXpert, etc) as it's not an Attack Action.
However, you're essentially giving Blade Pact capability, to Chain and Tome pact, which could get wierd. You've essentially relegated Blade to the dumpster.

+Healing on Hits
This is where I get a sketchy feeling. Warlocks already have lots of ways to gain TempHP, and a 5' push is not equivalent to +Healing. Also, Repelling Blast is a 5th level ability, and that's seems a touch low for this.

Give Him What He Wants: Bend 1 Rule
Just give him (or give everyone) a Feat at Lvl1. Boom, he takes XBow Expert and he's good. If you don't want to offer it to everyone, fine - he gets it at L1 and "owes it to you" at L4; meaning he doesn't get his first ASI/Fest since he technically "used it" on XE.

The Crux of the Issue
He's not playing a Warlock. He's playing a SorcLock and for some reason wants to go Melee. So he's already considering exploiting Metamagic to double-up his spells via Twin/Quicken. With Eldritch Blast, this becomes some of the highest DPR in the game, at minimal cost:
8d10+8xCha +8d6(Hex)
He wants to do that as a melee attack. Fine. Better melee than ranged, but I have to wonder, why?
I have a hard time buying that this is wholly innocent - he's already running an optimized character just by mixing Warlock and Sorcerer. I'd be waiting to see what tricks he pulls, and be prepped to tell him "no" somewhere down the line. And really, that's what bothers me: I'd rather tell him no now, than have him 6 levels deep and then tell him his character won't work how he thought it would.

Generic Warlock/Blade fixes that would do the same job
I know you said that you don't want to rejig the class, or have this turn into a balance discussion for Warlocks/BladeLocks in general. I get that - I started a thread asking for BladeLock tweeks and ate s***t for it.

Still, here are some tweaks I'd offer for you, if you want to make this really easy:


Personally, I would replace Repelling Blast or Eldritch Spear with this, but I suppose you could just add it in as an extra option:

Cursed One's Cunning
Prerequisite: 5th Level*
Casting 'Eldritch Blast' no longer triggers Opportunity Attacks.
*The 5th prereq is optional, but I suggest keeping it. XE comes at 4th level, and although this is somewhat weaker, it doesn't cost an ASI to get. It also totally replaces the need for melee, so it should hit at about the time BladeLocks get their boost.


A lot of people railed against this in the other thread, but the issue always seems to be not that BladeLocks inherently suck, bit that they are overshadowed by what you can accomplish with EB. The fact is, EB is one of (if not the) best damage cantrips in the game. Adding Agonizing Blast to it makes it crazy, and having Hex active is just dirtier still. There are lots of possible fixes:

Option 1: House rule
Make Agonizing Blast and/or Hex only apply once during the casting. Damage then goes from:
4d10+4d6+4xCha(20) = 56
To a more reasonable
4d10+1d6+Cha = 30.5

Compare that to a (non feat) dual-wielding BladeLock with Hex applying to every hit, and LifeDrinker applying to his pact Rapier. You get:
2d8+1d6+3d6+2Dex(20)+2Cha(20) = 43


Option 2.
Another "nerf" to Eldritch Blast which would also solve the 'Hex/Agony x4' issue, is to simply scale damage rather than the never of blasts. This puts EB in line with stuff like the SCAG cantrips for scaling. So it's just +d10 at each level.
This would be a major change to EB though, and a huge nerf as it would lose its current "reliability" (more shots = better chance of 'partial' damage) and its ability to split between several targets. I don't recommend this, for that reason.


1. Pact Blade is an Arcane Focus
This small change does a lot. It makes Dual Wielding viable without needing the Warcaster feat. See above for why that's important.
It also frees up use of a Shield, if you are somehow proficient.
This has always been a house rule at my table.

2. Thirsting Blade is a Feature, not Invoc
As it stands, Thirsting Blade is either a tax for BladeLocks, or BladePact is a tax for Warlocks to get it.
Either way, you're giving up choice to specialize in melee, and get penalized twice for it. So I say that just like Valor Bards, SpellBlades, or Favored Souls, the Blade Pact should just get Extra Attack at 5th level.

3. Shield Proficiency
Give it to them. Warlocks either go crazy MAD to get heavy weapons, or they dual-wield for damage. Giving them the option to carry a shield just rounds them out and gives them much needed survivability.
I'd also add Medium Armor here, but they already get better than that via the Armor of Shadow Invocation, so it seems a bit wasteful.



So, you get +Cha to EB at any level. That's d10+Cha. Per shot.
Now, the trick to slotting in Life Drinker is figuring out where the damage from AEB becomes better than Blade melees.
BlastLocks are SAD, and BladeLocks are MAD. We'll assume that they start with 16s in their relevant stats. So 16Cha for Blasty, and 16Cha, 16Dex/Str for Blade. I'll also show the damage for dual-wielding, but since I don't plan for StrLocks, we're capping them at Rapiers, the highest Dex damage. I'll show Hex damage also.

L1-3 (no ASI yet)
Blast: 1d10+3 = 8.5/12
Blade: 1d8+3 = 7.5/11
2Blade: 1d8+3+1d6 = 11/14.5

L5-7 (+2 ASIs, +Thirsting Blade, +Blast)
Blast: 2d10+10 = 21/28
Blade: 2d8+10 = 19/26
2Blade: 2d8+10+1d6 = 22.5/29.5

L11/12 (+ASI, +Blast, +Drinker)
Blast: 3d10+15 = 31.5/42
Blade: 2d8+10+8 = 27/34
2Blade: 2d8+10+8+d6 = 30.5/37.5

L17 (+ASI, +Blast)
Blast: 4d10+20 = 42/56
Blade: 2d8+10+10 = 29/36
2Blade: 2d8+10+10+d6 = 32.5/39.5

I think it's fair to give Life Drinker at any level (provided you don't nerf AEB/Hex, as in 1) - BladeLocks regularly lag behind by 1-2 damage unless they are forced into dual-wielding. With the MAD nature of BladeLocks (Dex for Attack and AC, Con for HP and Concentration, and Cha for Spells/Damage) I think it would be fair to assume only a 14 in one of those stats rather than the 16 I speculated, and they are devouring ASIs just to keep that up.


Alternatively
You can give Warlocks another Extra Attack at 11th level, and push Life Drinker to 17th. This de-emphasizes the need for tons of ASIs to keep up, as well as dual-wielding. It does however, give Warlocks the most attacks after Fighters, so I would actually combine this with the proposal to make Extra Attack (5th) a class feature. Make Thirsting Blade an 11th level Invocation, and Life Drinker a 17th level.

[Sicarius Victis]

I'd like to point out, CaptainSarathai, spellcasting in 5e doesn't trigger opportunity attacks in the first place.

Personally, I'd just allow Eldritch Blast to be usable as a melee attack rather than a ranged one. Even just making a homebrew Invocation that allowed that, as well as possibly allowing a few extra damage types for it, or something.

[Potato_Priest]

I'd like to point out, CaptainSarathai, spellcasting in 5e doesn't trigger opportunity attacks in the first place.

Personally, I'd just allow Eldritch Blast to be usable as a melee attack rather than a ranged one. Even just making a homebrew Invocation that allowed that, as well as possibly allowing a few extra damage types for it, or something.

I'd allow this as well. As far as I can tell, he really just takes a debuff, aside from not having to worry about how to get out of range anymore. I wouldn't make it cost an invocation though, because warlocks don't get many of those and making your player spend one on something so mild feels cruel.

[Asmotherion]

If you're going for custom material, make a special invocation for him, like "Eldritch Glaive" and allow him to shape his Eldritch Blast as a weapon. It will count as a weapon for all purposes, but uses Cha for attack rolls as normal. You can make this an alternative "Pact of the Blade" too, as the current Blade Pact has nothing amazing to be honest.

[Lombra]

Couldn't he just use GFB picking the draconic sorcerer archetype and choosing red/gold dragon? I feel that as you wrote the homebrew, it would get very boring very fast.

[Spiritchaser]

There are many ways that a Warlock can function in melee. The question is would this way be balanced?

There are definitely implications for bladelock raised by this discussion, but I would prefer not to address them here.

For context let's presume we don't know what division of sorcerer and Warlock levels the character will be, and that we don't know which order they will be taken in, and that we don't know what pact will ultimately be selected. If there are balance issues with any of them then those issues are problems.

I don't actually see any issues that do not already exist with sorlock builds in general, that is, I see nothing new to worry about...

But I've been guilty of failure of imagination before

For the sake of discussion let's assume positive intent on the part of the player, he is making a highly optimized character (at least for dps) and will use it to the extent he can, but is not deliberately concealing an exploit. Again, he is really just one feat away from doing something much more powerful with crossbow expert.

Edit: though again, there is the request that repelling blast be traded for something that helps melee survival...

[Tanarii]

If you're going for custom material, make a special invocation for him, like "Eldritch Glaive" and allow him to shape his Eldritch Blast as a weapon. It will count as a weapon for all purposes, but uses Cha for attack rolls as normal. You can make this an alternative "Pact of the Blade" too, as the current Blade Pact has nothing amazing to be honest.the points of pact of the blade is:
1) it closes a hole of ineffective melee attacks warlocks have.
2) it opens up effective Str melee builds.
2) it opens up effective use of any magical melee weapons.
That last one alone is sufficiently amazing.

This is something different. The goal is purely #1. So it's not a replacement for PotB at all.

[Socratov]

It's easy: take EB and Agonising Blast, take Crossbow master feat, fluff it like your player is making an sword shaped EB that deals damage by slashing it about.

[Spiritchaser]

It's easy: take EB and Agonising Blast, take Crossbow master feat, fluff it like your player is making an sword shaped EB that deals damage by slashing it about.

I appreciate that this is possible, and arguably more powerful than what is proposed here, but that is not the design intent.

The character concept and desired mechanism is for a purely melee version of eldritch blast, with no expectation that it will ever be used at range

I do appreciate that there are other options , the concern is: is this option fair?

[tieren]

I appreciate that this is possible, and arguably more powerful than what is proposed here, but that is not the design intent.

The character concept and desired mechanism is for a purely melee version of eldritch blast, with no expectation that it will ever be used at range

I do appreciate that there are other options , the concern is: is this option fair?

It sounds to me if you are asking if removing the range from eldritch blast is balanced with removing the disadvantage from using it in melee, and I would say yes.

Beyond that everything else is fluff.

[Callin]

Did anyone mention the interaction with War Caster yet?

[Spiritchaser]

No, and I would be unsurprised it he selected warcaster at some point, although I think his build is going to be tight, it needs dex for AC, cha and con.

[Theodoxus]

I'd just create a new cantrip: Eldritch Weapon which creates a force weapon that uses Charisma for attack, deals 1d10 points of force damage and the number of attacks scale, granting an additional attack at 5th, 11th and 17th levels. The cantrip can by modified by agonizing blast.

(In my world, I'd stipulate that Eldritch Blast and Weapon are incompatible cantrips, can't know both - otherwise there's no reason to take XBX - but that's just me).

As for a defensive invocation, how about Patrons' Hand: Requisite: 5th level. As a reaction, you can call upon your patron to impose their hand between you and your foes. Until you take your next turn, you can choose to gain a bonus to AC equal to your proficiency bonus or absorb energy (chosen from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant or Thunder, this choice can be changed every time the ability is used) equal to 5x your Warlock level. Using this ability requires the expenditure of a spell slot.

It's like a poor man's shield/absorb elements - though, it scales better than either - but with limited spell slots, it becomes a question of how likely you're to use it.

Of course, grabbing sorcerer levels makes it less likely to be used, as you'd probably get Shield and Absorb Elements - but... figured I'd throw something out there...


ETA:
Did anyone mention the interaction with War Caster yet?

Wasn't there a ruling that War Caster and Eldritch Blast meant 1 shot, not multiple? Seems the same would apply to a melee focused cantrip...

[Hakon]

Undying light warlock with Shillelagh from pact of tome combined with war caster and green flame blade cantrip
now you can match the damage single target and exceed multi target:

with 20 cha:
level 1
1d10+5
vs
1d8+5

Level 5 (add in power attack for using q.staff 2 handed and +1 q.staff)
2d10+10 (21)
vs
2d8+21 (30)

Level 11 (+2 q.staff)
3d10+15 (31.5)
vs
3d8+22 (35.5)

Level 17 (+3 q.staff)
4d10+20 (42)
vs
4d8+23 (41)

this can be increased further with a 6 level dip in Sorcerer.
gaining the dragon feature stacking an additional +5 to the fire damage.
a 3 level dip in paladin adds the ability to add charisma to your attack roll which due to shillelagh already adds charisma, this can be traded off to make the power attack not cost your chance to hit, or left on with 10 less damage to hit those tank type enemies.

level 17 with 6 levels of dragon sorcerer
4d8+28 (46) and you can quicken or twin it to attack twice.

if you have 2 targets at level 17 you do an extra 3d8+15 (28.5) to the second enemy

twinning the attack against 2 targets and picking the opposite as the secondary target nets you an average of
74.5 per target or 149 damage in a single turn.


there is no need to home rule anything, just get him to multi class and sacrifice some high end spell potential.

[Sicarius Victis]

Undying light warlock with Shillelagh from pact of tome combined with war caster and green flame blade cantrip
now you can match the damage single target and exceed multi target:

with 20 cha:
level 1
1d10+5
vs
1d8+5

Level 5 (add in power attack for using q.staff 2 handed and +1 q.staff)
2d10+10 (21)
vs
2d8+21 (30)

Level 11 (+2 q.staff)
3d10+15 (31.5)
vs
3d8+22 (35.5)

Level 17 (+3 q.staff)
4d10+20 (42)
vs
4d8+23 (41)

this can be increased further with a 6 level dip in Sorcerer.
gaining the dragon feature stacking an additional +5 to the fire damage.
a 3 level dip in paladin adds the ability to add charisma to your attack roll which due to shillelagh already adds charisma, this can be traded off to make the power attack not cost your chance to hit, or left on with 10 less damage to hit those tank type enemies.

level 17 with 6 levels of dragon sorcerer
4d8+28 (46) and you can quicken or twin it to attack twice.

if you have 2 targets at level 17 you do an extra 3d8+15 (28.5) to the second enemy

twinning the attack against 2 targets and picking the opposite as the secondary target nets you an average of
74.5 per target or 149 damage in a single turn.


there is no need to home rule anything, just get him to multi class and sacrifice some high end spell potential.

Or, if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd know that's not what is wanted. It has been explicitly stated that they want "melee EB". Shillelagh+GFB has already been suggested, and was turned down.

Also, I'd like to point out that GFB can't be Twinned, and you can't use GWM's Power Attack with a quarterstaff.

[Hakon]

Or, if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd know that's not what is wanted. It has been explicitly stated that they want "melee EB". Shillelagh+GFB has already been suggested, and was turned down.

Also, I'd like to point out that GFB can't be Twinned, and you can't use GWM's Power Attack with a quarterstaff.

you can twin a spell as long as the second spell targets a different target

fix that by using a longstaff
Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed

This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

[Socratov]

you can twin a spell as long as the second spell targets a different target

fix that by using a longstaff
Longstaff 5 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 7 lb. Heavy, reach, special, two-handed

This sturdy wooden pole is used to train warriors in the use of pikes and halberds. A longstaff offers reduced combat effectiveness compared to such weapons, but is quite inexpensive and may double as a trap-springing device.
The longstaff is considered to be a monk weapon, despite not fulfilling the requirements listed under the Martial Arts class feature. Monks may become proficient with longstaves by taking the Weapon Master feat. A monk who is proficient with this weapon may wield it in one hand, although its base damage becomes 1d6 when used in this manner.
A longstaff counts as a quarterstaff for the purpose of effects that relate to weapon type.

you can twin a spell, as long as the spell that is twinned only has one target. GFB has a secondary target and thus is not eligible for twin spell metamagic. Booming Blade, however, is eligible.

[CaptainSarathai]

you can twin a spell as long as the second spell targets a different target
Twin also specifies that the spell only has a single target; GFB has 2 targets (the target of the attack, and target of the secondary).
You can Quicken GFB, but that is all. You can Twin Booming Blade.


fix that by using
A goofy house-ruled weapon. Why?

[Hakon]

Twin also specifies that the spell only has a single target; GFB has 2 targets (the target of the attack, and target of the secondary).
You can Quicken GFB, but that is all. You can Twin Booming Blade.


A goofy house-ruled weapon. Why?

green flame blade has one target.

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.

the second target is an after effect like a stun or a trip, you can not choose a second creature if the primary target is not hit.

it is a spell that targets only one creature.

its no different to putting down a cloud of daggers, if the first target leaves the cloud and another enters then technically you hit 2 creatures and shouldn't have been able to twin it, however you only targeted one creature.

[Spiritchaser]

I'll depart from the thread for a moment to address GFB, because It's something that's been relevant in a play session quite recently. I imagine one could interpret the spell a few ways, but certainly I would not permit GFB to be twinned.

This is partly based on what I believe to be a strict interpretation of the RAW which to me appears to forbid it.

It is also partly based on the fact that the rider damage can strike a very high AC/save foe if it that foe has minions, or if you can arrange it such that there are at least targets near that foe. This can lead to some bizarre shenanigans that I've actually seen players do even as the spell is.

I don't want to make a

"This feels wrong but you're having fun and it's not a big deal, you probably won't arrange this too much so I'll go with it"

into a

"Ok, this is obviously wrong, and it's an exploit, and you're going to do this every time you can now aren't you and no. Just no."

by allowing a weird and rare but effective way at striking a hard target to become a broken go to method, particularly when I feel the RAW forbid it.


That being said, The reason to not go with GFB in this case isn't this issue,

The issue is that it is not what the player desires, and I'm interested to see if the sum of the imaginations here can help me spot problems with the proposal before they manifest.

It does lead to a very high sustained melee damage output, short only of a few very optimized builds... and this one gets it easily as well as lots of spells.
It does lead to a solid chance to be able to use warcaster for more damage, arguably more than almost anything.
It does result in a character that's likely to become hamburger, and balancing just how likely with modifications to repelling blast is still something I'm wrestling with. There are certainly lots of ideas, I'm just not sure how much is needed.

[Ursus the Grim]

I'll depart from the thread for a moment to address GFB, because It's something that's been relevant in a play session quite recently. I imagine one could interpret the spell a few ways, but certainly I would not permit GFB to be twinned.

This is partly based on what I believe to be a strict interpretation of the RAW which to me appears to forbid it.

Nor would I. Or the Crawdad. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/10/can-you-us-twinned-spell-with-green-flame-blade/)

The fact that so many high-optimization builds demand the use of GFB suggest to me that its already really powerful without allowing it to be twinned.

And I don't think you departed from the thread. GFB is a core aspect of considering the player's options in this case.

[Crusher]

Lets imagine for a moment that there is a player who wants a melee sorlock, but is not thrilled with the mechanics of the bladelock.

Let us also presume that the validity of his concern is not the topic of this thread, only the balance of the proposal

That being:

Instead of eldritch blast, he would like a cantrip that allowed him to make a melee spell attack doing 1d10 damage. This cantrip would scale identically with level as eldritch blast, ultimately allowing 4 strikes

Instead of agonizing blast, he would like an invocation that allowed charisma to be added to these strikes in an equivalent fashion as eldritch blast

The damage type would be force as per eldritch blast.

There would not be an identical invocation to repelling blast, instead there would be an invocation that permits some additional survivability. This is a big grey area and worth more discussion here.

The weapon type would be at the sorlock's discretion, although in this particular case it will be a glaive (which means reach)

It is expressly clear that these are spell attacks, not weapon attacks. There will be no interaction with the likes of magic weapon, hasten or sentinel etc. That wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

There would be no interaction with any weapon fighting style or feat that wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

If i were to allow him to happen across a rod of the pact keeper, it would add an identical bonus to his attacks as it would to eldritch blast.

Thoughts?

Edit: also, the intended attack stat is charisma, just like eldritch blast.

I like the suggestion of an "Eldritch Weapon" cantrip to create any melee weapon (no Eldritch Longbows, etc) as an action (so, yes, the player could swap from glaive to dagger to whip or whatever if circumstances required, but they probably wouldn't want to do it during combat) and then the weapon exists for a good chunk of time. Say, 8 hours or something, and works exactly as you say, with the qualification that you can't take it *and* Eldritch Blast. Then allowing Agonizing Blast to work on Eldritch Weapon as well as Eldritch Blast seems reasonable.

The real question, imo, is what exactly to do with the survivability replacement for Repelling Blast? You don't want something that will copy an already existing spell (you've already got AoA and potentially Fire Shield, and Mage Armor already has an invocation). Anything that lets you get chunks of damage absorption is arguably too similar to AoA, and anything that lets you trade spell slots for defense might get broken quickly if the player multiclasses into Sorc unless you make the scaling bad in which case its barely worth having.

However, you can't really assume he'll dip something else, so how about an Invocation that lets the user cast Shield once per short rest without using a slot? Getting an extra cast per short rest is very valuable for a Warlock for quite a while, but much less so for another caster so its not terribly abusable. And, sure, he could get it by dipping into Wizard or Sorc, but we can't assume he'd do that.

[tieren]

Lets imagine for a moment that there is a player who wants a melee sorlock, but is not thrilled with the mechanics of the bladelock.

Let us also presume that the validity of his concern is not the topic of this thread, only the balance of the proposal

That being:

Instead of eldritch blast, he would like a cantrip that allowed him to make a melee spell attack doing 1d10 damage. This cantrip would scale identically with level as eldritch blast, ultimately allowing 4 strikes

Instead of agonizing blast, he would like an invocation that allowed charisma to be added to these strikes in an equivalent fashion as eldritch blast

The damage type would be force as per eldritch blast.

There would not be an identical invocation to repelling blast, instead there would be an invocation that permits some additional survivability. This is a big grey area and worth more discussion here.

The weapon type would be at the sorlock's discretion, although in this particular case it will be a glaive (which means reach)

It is expressly clear that these are spell attacks, not weapon attacks. There will be no interaction with the likes of magic weapon, hasten or sentinel etc. That wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

There would be no interaction with any weapon fighting style or feat that wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

If i were to allow him to happen across a rod of the pact keeper, it would add an identical bonus to his attacks as it would to eldritch blast.

Thoughts?

Edit: also, the intended attack stat is charisma, just like eldritch blast.

Eldritch Blast already does all of this, the only thing you have to get past is the disadvantage in melee range, which you can trade for shortening the range.

Everything else is just fluff, there is literally no need to redesign anything else. If you don't like the image of blasts from his fingers tell him it looks like a glaive appears connecting him to the target each "blast" and you're done.

[Crusher]

Another option that doesn't seem terrible would be an Invocation granting Defensive Fighting Style. Useful, but unlikely to be exploited heavily.

The suggestion before about allowing a bonus to AC equal to proficiency seems potentially dangerous to me. A Warlock with that, Mage Armor, an 18 Dex, a shield (switching the Eldritch Weapon to something 1 handed), and a 1 level dip in fighter for defensive fighting style has an AC of 23 by level 5 with minimal resource expenditure.

[Spiritchaser]

The problems with many warlocks in melee (not necessarily bladelocks) to my mind are
no con save (likely not an issue here, as he will most likely start sorc, but that's only part of the story)
Limited AC
May have Limited ability to focus on health, because of MAD issues
May have a limited ability to manage grapples or shoves, depending on dex and str scores
No innate mobility power (a la fancy footwork)
No particular advantage on saves on things levelled against the frontlines

I don't feel its necessary, or desirable to address all of these, or even most of them with a single invocation.

I've toyed with adding charisma to AC instead of dex with bladelocks before, I called it armor of will and that was reasonable there, but that's overkill here, as it allows the build to become very nearly single attribute dominant with high AC and damage from CHA only.

Conceptually, I'm inclined to feel that melee debuffs are pretty "warlocky" I'd like to make an invocation where any creature struck by the warlock's eldritch blade suffers a non stacking penalty on to-hit and on save DC of one or two points for one round. My concern is creating a melee debuffer who can debuff 6 or even 8 (if we got that high) targets per round. I'm not saying this is unfair because of the modest values involved, I'm just not sure I want the pain in the backside of keeping track of it all.

On the other hand, with 6 or 8 things mad at him, I'd probably only have to keep track of it for one round.

[Theodoxus]

You're a confusing mishmash of desires... on one hand, you've considered that a melee 'lock is too squishy, on the other, you're against boosting him to a strong SAD offense and defensive state.

Is he Fiend? Will he be getting a ton of temp HP while surrounded by 6-8 foes all trying to kill him? Is he Fey, and able to put them on lockdown when surrounded?

Part of the problem is you've given us only part of the build. I get you're looking for a universal answer - the Eldritch Weapon cantrip is part of that answer. But if you're looking for a universal defensive solution to go along with it, one that doesn't make the character "too powerful" whatever that means, regardless of his patron and boon... that's a bit harder.

Granting rider effects to the cantrip is certainly one route. Hex (I presume he'll be using that) already can debuff a target - make it easier to knock prone or break a grapple. Maybe an invocation that spreads Hex's effect in a 5' burst for a round? Would probably need to make 1/rest if it allows for the damage increase too - but if it only affects their ability checks for the same attribute selected, I could see that being spammable...

If he's not a Goolock, maybe an invocation that replicates Entropic Ward? (or if he is, boosts it to spammable - it'd require 6th level, and uses a reaction...)

[Biggstick]

Many posters before me have said it, but they're saying it for a reason.

Crossbow Expert!

If you're truly unhappy with that response, take the element that the PC wants, (can make ranged attacks in melee with no penalty) and pair it with something else (+1 Charisma, or something else thematically appropriate).

By taking Crossbow Expert, or at least the part of it the PC needs to do what they want to do, you're allowing the player to have their cake and eat it to, while not rewriting a ton of stuff. You're also not presenting a situation in which other players might feel like something is overpowered or broken, as Crossbow Expert is totally fine to pair with Eldritch/Agonizing/Repelling Blast.

[Submortimer]

Lets imagine for a moment that there is a player who wants a melee sorlock, but is not thrilled with the mechanics of the bladelock.

Let us also presume that the validity of his concern is not the topic of this thread, only the balance of the proposal

That being:

Instead of eldritch blast, he would like a cantrip that allowed him to make a melee spell attack doing 1d10 damage. This cantrip would scale identically with level as eldritch blast, ultimately allowing 4 strikes

Instead of agonizing blast, he would like an invocation that allowed charisma to be added to these strikes in an equivalent fashion as eldritch blast

The damage type would be force as per eldritch blast.

There would not be an identical invocation to repelling blast, instead there would be an invocation that permits some additional survivability. This is a big grey area and worth more discussion here.

The weapon type would be at the sorlock's discretion, although in this particular case it will be a glaive (which means reach)

It is expressly clear that these are spell attacks, not weapon attacks. There will be no interaction with the likes of magic weapon, hasten or sentinel etc. That wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

There would be no interaction with any weapon fighting style or feat that wouldn't also be possible with eldritch blast.

If i were to allow him to happen across a rod of the pact keeper, it would add an identical bonus to his attacks as it would to eldritch blast.

Thoughts?

Edit: also, the intended attack stat is charisma, just like eldritch blast.


I do this in my games with a slightly different spell

Mystical Blade

Evocation Cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, S, M (a blade-less sword hilt worth at least 5 gp)
Duration: 1 round
You conjure a blade of magical force, channeled through a focusing handle, and lash out at your foes. Make a melee spell attack; on a hit, you deal 1d8 force damage. The blade remains in existence for a short time; until the beginning of your next turn, you can make a single strike with your mystical blade as an opportunity attack.

You can make 1 additional strike on your turn at 5th level (2 attacks), at 11th level (3 attacks), and at 17th level (4 attacks).


All applicable Eldritch Blast effects work with this. I find that dropping the damage down to a d8 and having a reliable melee OA available works out very well. It doesn't interact with any fighting styles, though does interact with spell sniper (so this could be a Mystic Polearm).

[Socratov]

I do this in my games with a slightly different spell

Mystical Blade

Evocation Cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, S, M (a blade-less sword hilt worth at least 5 gp)
Duration: 1 round
You conjure a blade of magical force, channeled through a focusing handle, and lash out at your foes. Make a melee spell attack; on a hit, you deal 1d8 force damage. The blade remains in existence for a short time; until the beginning of your next turn, you can make a single strike with your mystical blade as an opportunity attack.

You can make 1 additional strike on your turn at 5th level (2 attacks), at 11th level (3 attacks), and at 17th level (4 attacks).


All applicable Eldritch Blast effects work with this. I find that dropping the damage down to a d8 and having a reliable melee OA available works out very well. It doesn't interact with any fighting styles, though does interact with spell sniper (so this could be a Mystic Polearm).

At first glance it seems good, but then you realise that the user pretty much gets to be a fighter with a longsword but without the ability to damage (that is, until Agonising blast). And it allows for opportunity attacks, something a normal cantrip does not do. And it also allows for 10' of pushback through Repelling blast. And with sorcerer levels, it can be quickened for 8 attacks per turn, thism creates a great critfisher as through quicken (in this case 1 sorcerypoint) you will have 8 chances to roll that 20 (advantage not whitstanding) resulting in a 1-0.958=0.33 chance to crit each turn you quicken. add in advantage through Barbarian's Reckless Attacks and that goes up to 55% (warlock 2/barbarian 2/sorc rest), but wait if you really want to get your return value on crits be a paladin! 2! Warlock 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Sorc 14 give enough spellslots to smite with, 14 sorcerypoints to quicken, cha to hit and to dmg of your mystic blade, always on advantage (55% crit chance per turn) and you can do this for 14 turns until you need to recharge. That's not even counting opportunity attacks (which, if they happen, will raise the chance of critting on any given turn up to 60%). then if you crit, you smite for double returns.And this is before adding in the effect of Hex...

[DracoKnight]

At first glance it seems good, but then you realise that the user pretty much gets to be a fighter with a longsword but without the ability to damage (that is, until Agonising blast). And it allows for opportunity attacks, something a normal cantrip does not do. And it also allows for 10' of pushback through Repelling blast. And with sorcerer levels, it can be quickened for 8 attacks per turn, thism creates a great critfisher as through quicken (in this case 1 sorcerypoint) you will have 8 chances to roll that 20 (advantage not whitstanding) resulting in a 1-0.958=0.33 chance to crit each turn you quicken. add in advantage through Barbarian's Reckless Attacks and that goes up to 55% (warlock 2/barbarian 2/sorc rest), but wait if you really want to get your return value on crits be a paladin! 2! Warlock 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Sorc 14 give enough spellslots to smite with, 14 sorcerypoints to quicken, cha to hit and to dmg of your mystic blade, always on advantage (55% crit chance per turn) and you can do this for 14 turns until you need to recharge. That's not even counting opportunity attacks (which, if they happen, will raise the chance of critting on any given turn up to 60%). then if you crit, you smite for double returns.And this is before adding in the effect of Hex...

Another problem I find is that melee is MORE of a risk than ranged, so dropping from 1d10 ranged to 1d8 melee seems odd.

[Sicarius Victis]

At first glance it seems good, but then you realise that the user pretty much gets to be a fighter with a longsword but without the ability to damage (that is, until Agonising blast). And it allows for opportunity attacks, something a normal cantrip does not do. And it also allows for 10' of pushback through Repelling blast. And with sorcerer levels, it can be quickened for 8 attacks per turn, thism creates a great critfisher as through quicken (in this case 1 sorcerypoint) you will have 8 chances to roll that 20 (advantage not whitstanding) resulting in a 1-0.958=0.33 chance to crit each turn you quicken. add in advantage through Barbarian's Reckless Attacks and that goes up to 55% (warlock 2/barbarian 2/sorc rest), but wait if you really want to get your return value on crits be a paladin! 2! Warlock 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Sorc 14 give enough spellslots to smite with, 14 sorcerypoints to quicken, cha to hit and to dmg of your mystic blade, always on advantage (55% crit chance per turn) and you can do this for 14 turns until you need to recharge. That's not even counting opportunity attacks (which, if they happen, will raise the chance of critting on any given turn up to 60%). then if you crit, you smite for double returns.And this is before adding in the effect of Hex...

I fail to see anything that makes it overpowered but doesn't make EB overpowered. Remember, this allows a melee spell attack, while Smite requires a melee weapon attack.

[Asmotherion]

the points of pact of the blade is:
1) it closes a hole of ineffective melee attacks warlocks have.
2) it opens up effective Str melee builds.
2) it opens up effective use of any magical melee weapons.
That last one alone is sufficiently amazing.

This is something different. The goal is purely #1. So it's not a replacement for PotB at all.

No offence, but it doesn't effectivelly do neither 1 nor 2. Only number 3 is applicable.

A Melee Warlock in 5e becomes competitive only after he gets to add his Cha modifier to Damage. Also, to do that, he must still become uneccesseraly MAD wile his colegue, the TomeLock can learn Shillelagh, and Attack+Damage with his spellcasting ability (Cha). He only has 2 attacks after he gets thirsting blade, and no nova dammage option. Why would anyone want to add dependancy on an additional ability score, wile the Warlock is such an amazing class is beyond me.

[Socratov]

I fail to see anything that makes it overpowered but doesn't make EB overpowered. Remember, this allows a melee spell attack, while Smite requires a melee weapon attack.

In that case it's less of a problem...

[Tanarii]

No offence, but it doesn't effectivelly do neither 1 nor 2. Only number 3 is applicable.Yes. It does. You're just wrong.

[Socratov]

Yes. It does. You're just wrong.

Agreed, but with the caveat that while they delivered on melee attacks, they dropped the ball on defence as the build deadlocks you into at least 3 invocations and make you mad in the sense that you will need not only CHA/DEX, but CHA/(DEX|STR)/CON. But we already debated this ad nauseum and concluded that fighter 1/Hill Dwarf (for STR builds) or rogue 2 and/or the mobile feat can help a lot in that regard

[Tanarii]

Agreed, but with the caveat that while they delivered on melee attacks, they dropped the ball on defence as the build deadlocks you into at least 3 invocations and make you mad in the sense that you will need not only CHA/DEX, but CHA/(DEX|STR)/CON. But we already debated this ad nauseum and concluded that fighter 1/Hill Dwarf (for STR builds) or rogue 2 and/or the mobile feat can help a lot in that regard
Sure, but where's the fun in being reasonable with your reaponses? :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

Sure, but where's the fun in being reasonable with your reaponses? :smallbiggrin:

Who, reasonable? Me? Nonono, you have me confused with someone else. I'm sure of it. :smallamused:

[Giant2005]

For the sake of discussion let's assume positive intent on the part of the player, he is making a highly optimized character (at least for dps) and will use it to the extent he can, but is not deliberately concealing an exploit. Again, he is really just one feat away from doing something much more powerful with crossbow expert.

That isn't entirely true. Even if you get rid of the disadvantage via Crossbow Expert, EB is still a ranged attack. That means it does not qualify for any feats and abilities that require a melee attack. Your homebrew would trigger abilities that require a melee attack.
There are a fair few of them - the Mounted Combatant feat is the first that springs to mind.

[Armored Walrus]

I would allow it. If anything, it's a nerf to Eldritch blast. You're removing the disadvantage at melee range, but then removing the range option entirely. On balance, I think that's a net nerf, not a buff. Go ahead and do it.

[bid]

Even if you get rid of the disadvantage via Crossbow Expert, EB is still a ranged attack.
Yeah, just leave it as a variant of EB, mechanically. It's still a ranged attack, but with range: 5 and the bullet point from CE.

Now, let your player refluff it as a jedi force blade, where he has to go through the motion for purely esthetical reasons. It will behave just as he wants without having to fix mechanics.

And it's not whether your player has an hidden agenda: you might both have missed something. 3 months down the line:
A) he'll come to you for a freebie that doesn't work with the EB mechanic. He hopes you'll allow it.
B) he finds a loophole which works with the non-EB mechanic. He's entitled to it, you can't refuse.

[CaptainSarathai]

That isn't entirely true. Even if you get rid of the disadvantage via Crossbow Expert, EB is still a ranged attack. That means it does not qualify for any feats and abilities that require a melee attack. Your homebrew would trigger abilities that require a melee attack.
There are a fair few of them - the Mounted Combatant feat is the first that springs to mind.

OP has said multiple times that it would be a spell attack and those effects would not trigger (his rules, not mine)
MOST feats require a specific Attack Action anyway, and the few don't would require multiclassing.

[Spiritchaser]

Thanks all for bouncing this around and commenting. I'm going to go with it, I'll call it eldritch blade, and I'm going to remove the V component. and I'm going to add an invocation to compensate for the loss of repelling blast. It'll add some modest debuffs to whatevever he hits, which should motivate him to be in melee range, and actually let him protect the party by doing so.

I'll necro this thread and let you know how it goes... In 6 months or so.

[Ziegander]

Undying Light w/Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade is a sick combo, I approve.

[Asmotherion]

Yes. It does. You're just wrong.

No. It does not. Me right, you wrong.

Simplified my answer to your level of understanding. :) You're welcome.