Tier system for 3.5 and my take on each base class.

[CaPtMalHammer]

So I have been reading a lot here about the different tiers and what people are arguing etc. I myself agree and disagree with several assumptions and placements. I figure its time I do my own break down of tiers and base classes and why I put each where. You don't have to agree or even like what I put here but if you want to read on and see and maybe comment great. I ask we keep this a civil discussion. This is in no way an affront to any class or anybody personally. This is strictly my take on things.

Ok so in most cases there have been 5 tiers. I will keep that and try to define what I see from each class. I will have multiple tier ratings for each class. A rating for the base class itself and a rating for how the class is used in PRC/optimization builds. I am not going to list tier 1, tier 2 etc but rather the class, what I think about it and what tier I think it belongs in.


There are 5 factors I am taking into account with each class. Its class abilities (Feat, Spell, Etc), its stats (HP, Saves, BAB), Its skill points, Its ability to handle multiple roles in a party, how well it can be used in a PRC build.

After some feedback I'm going to attempt to update my Tier definitions to make them easier to explain etc. I may fail in the reattempt but hopefully this helps.

The classes should include the following in some form or another. Not every Tier 1 will have all the things etc but should have a majority of them. Etc for Tier 2-5.


Tier 1: Superior Class feature, Good BAB, Saves, ETC. Spellcasting and Skill ability above other classes. Strong class skills, Versatile in the party role then can undertake.

Tier 2: Good Class Features, OK or better BAB, Save, ETC. Good Skill Lists and Ok Spellcasting ability. Versatile to take on more then one role in the party and better then average class abilities.

Tier 3: Average Class Features, Ok BAB, Saves, ETC. Decent Spell Casting and skill list, Able to handle a single role really well but with the possible of branching into others not as well.

Tier 4: Average or Less Class Features, Ok or worse BAB, Saves, ETC. Spell Casting is poor or non existent, Skill lists are Average or worse. Able to handle a sinlge role in the party but not versatile enough to branch out.

Tier 5: Poor Class Feature, Ok or Worse BAB, Saves, ETC. Spell Casting doesn't exist or is very poor. Bad Skill List or at least a list that is focused on 1 thing. These classes can be fun still but are focused on a specific goal or have abilities that are setting specific etc. Not versatile.

Player's Handbook:

Barbarian: The Barbarian class from 1 to 20 overall is very strong. Great HP, Strong abilities that boost combat like Rage and DR to help with damage he will be taking from a low AC. Out of combat abilities like Trap Sense to help if traps are sprung and Fast Movement to help I certain, albeit specific, skill challenges. They have Full BAB. The Barbarian has strong Fort save but lacks in Reflex and Will saves. The Barbarian does have Class abilities while raging though that do help a little with the lack of a Will save base. Wearing light armor which allows for high Dex builds. AC is a weakness but is expected with Rage. Skill points are few and far between. Illiteracy is an odd thing, some games can really hinder and others not so much depending on the situation. Overall is a solid Tier 3 combat class. This class for PRC's however is where it really shines. A dip or two with some ACF and this becomes paramount in most "Dervish" or classes that move around the battlefield a lot (Charging, ETC) builds and so many more. A single level dip of this class is used for Lion Totem and Pounce in lots of optimized builds. With PRC's and ACF this class stays a solid Tier 3.

Cleric: 1-20 This class is top 2 in the base handbook. It is the most versatile without trying. Cleric class abilities are strong spell casting with full casting ability and knowledge of the entire spell list is huge. Prep spells is annoying at times but you can change for anything within a day. Strong Will and Fort saves. Poor Reflex saves. Ok BAB that can allow either for caster builds or melee builds. Skill points that are not as good as some but not as bad as others so middle ground. The ability to wear heavy armor allows versatility in stats and how you build it. The spells allow the cleric to be the face, the melee tank, the healer or the buffer. This is a clear Tier 1 class out of the box. PRCS and ACF's only strengthen this class with possible Theurge builds or PRC's that cover the gambit of party roles. This is Tier 1 class all around.

Fighter: This is a strong combat class but does lack some depth. The Full BAB and lots of feats make the combat possibilities great with this class. They can be the archer, the tank, the dual wielding flanker, the trip battle field control artist. Strong Fort save is nice and great HP with a d10. Poor Reflex and Will saves and lack of Skill points make this class hard to get out of it wheel house. The ability to wear any armor and any shield again aids in the variety of combat builds. This is a combat pony that does really well 1-20. Strong tier 3 class at base. PRCS and ACF. Well to be honest this class is used as a dip mostly to get needed feats for other builds. In itself there are other classes that do much better in this realm. This class falls to a Tier 4 when you take these into account.

Monk: Interesting Class. 1-20 not the strongest and kind of a muddled mess. Front loaded class with lots of feats and abilities. Increased movement, AC buffs and Good Saving throws make it a class that when build right can be hard to hit in combat. The Flurry of Blows is good in concept but bad in execution. The ability to not wield many weapons and to not wear any armor limits this class to a high Dex and Wis build. Making it the most Stat heavy class in the base book. Overall its a mash of ok ideas that never pan out. Tier 4 at its base. When you add in the ability to PRC and ACF this class shines a little brighter. its early front loaded nature makes it great to dip into for feats etc needed for other class abilities. Any Grapple or unarmed build can benefit a lot from a quick dip into the Monk. The monk also has the ability to be a GISH or hybrid caster class. Sacred Fist etc are some of the strongest PRC builds. The versatility of the front end of this class makes it climb to Tier 3 when you take this into account.

There are the first 4 I will continue the player's handbook as soon as I can. :)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Player's Handbook Con't:

Rogue: A class with a good flavor but I think its mechanics get in its way. Sneak attack and evasion make it a good off melee flanker. Its trapfinding and skills makes it great at dungeon runs things. Its skills are one of the few real saving graces here. lots of skill points allows some versatility in the role it takes. 1-20 though it has a not great BAB, Good Reflex but poor Will and Fort saves. Light armor makes it Dex dependent. Not as Stat driven as the monk but still not great. Overall this class seems to get in its own way a lot and is Tier 4. With PRC and ACF however dipping into this class is great. So many options. Unseen seer, Dervish and many others. The ability to add damage to any build and skill points to help those classes that are inept at skills makes this well worth a few levels. Its ACF which allow the damage to be useful against Undead etc helps as well. The versatility the skills and damage buffing add to other builds make it Tier 2 easy when you add in the PRC and ACF.

Ranger: This class was tough for me to place overall. Great BAB and Average HP with a D8, Animal companion that's not as good as the Druids but can add strong utility to a build. Class features that aid in Roleplaying and combat: favored enemy adds damage potential etc but also breeds a dislike or a study against certain races which can fuel story line. Casting ability is limited but some ok spells in later levels on their list. Survival and tracking ability to help with wilderness skill challenges. Overall a strong class. Can be both the Scout or Main Fighter of a party. If built to it can be the face as well. Ranger is a versatile class. Top Ref and Fort saves are a good bonus. Poor Will save. Evasion and Camoflauge to help as well. This is a solid Tier 2 class. PRC's and ACF's well this makes a big difference. makes this class shine as a shapeshifter or as a Dervish or as a scout on steroids. You can give up its weaknesses to add great utility in and out of combat. ACF's to be useful in other non-wilderness areas and a list of feats for cross classing like Swift Hunter makes for very strong builds. The features early on can help gain access to some good PRC's. This class remains a solid Tier 2 with all additions.

Druid: This was one of the easiest. Like Cleric from 1-20 this is amazing and hard to mess up. Ok BAB and Good Class skills. Wild shape and casting are amazing. the Animal Companion alone makes 1-20 worth it. This class can be a melee tank. a ranged archer, a party summoner. a thief to get through locked doors. The versatility of the class abilities are great. Good HP as well to make them not so squishy. Full casting and good skill progression there is nothing wrong with this class. Tier 1 all the way. PRCS and ACF this class becomes even better. This is by far the most versatile class and can be used in every type of build. There is no role this class can not do. Tier 1 all the way.

Will come back later with the final 4 from the Player's. :)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Ok here are the final 3 from Player's handbook:

Bard: Versatile class. Bardic knowledge is a useful DM tool to help progress story lines when things get stale or stuck. Good casting list and progression is slower then a wizard but good. Heal abilities from Arcane caster always nice to add versatility. Overall the HP is mid grade at best, Saves are not that impressive. Class abilities allow versatility in combat and out from knowledge skills to mind altering skills to party buffs. Bard from 1-20 is a great support build and sits strongly I feel at Tier 3. PRC and ACF actually help the bard to shine several builds with druid or cleric to theurge etc. Lyrist build is strong. ACF's to help mold the build taking away certain abilities and honing in on others. I don't think there is enough to make Bard Tier 2 but is is a solid Tier 3 build all around.

Sorcerer: 1-20 this class is above average. Less spells then those who get the full list but with the correct choices can be very powerful. The party jester (Cantrip caster or magician for parties), the party blaster, can be an ok off tank or even part rogue all with the right spell selection. Is hard for this class to be the face of a party although the CHR based casting does help. Poor HP and BAB hurt the class. Casting without preparation is a huge boon. This class with the right spells known chosen can take on multiple roles. The skill list is non existent here and the skills per level for a caster are very sub par. Familiar if you focus on it can be a great asset or is a large liability if handled wrong. Tier 3 Solidly. PRC's and ACF's help a lot. the ability to get metamagic aids what it can do making it better. The PRC and ACF help fix the classes shortcomings. It adds loads of options from Theurge builds to GISH builds to straight up blast you in the face builds. A solid Tier 2 class.

Wizard: Finally the wizard. From 1-20 this is one of the weaker base classes out there. Limits spells in the spell book without roleplaying and putting in spells during gameplay. Yes I know that assuming a Wizard wont at some point scribe spells is a little strange but i am trying to take the classes at their base. Wizard does get a good Will Save which is nice and INT based casting which helps bolster its no so great skill list. Straight out of the book this class suffers with only a few spells at each level. Awful BAB, and awful HP. This class if unlucky and without spells being prepped in its HP alone could be one shot by an archer. The ability to specialize is nice but this class is overshadowed by almost any other casting class. Its spell list however is very good and helps the versatility of the class. If can change focus in a day to help something else. This class at its base is a good high Tier 4 or low Tier 3. I would place it in Tier 3 overall however. Now this class is also a two sided coin. When you add in PRC and ACF this class skyrockets. This class can be anything and has the ability to do it. Unlimited spell potential. GISH builds, Theurge builds. Best controller in the game when it comes to combat. what it lacks in its base form when you add in the ability to find a scroll and scribe it into the book and the multitude of options when you open up ACF etc. This class becomes Tier 1 without a doubt.

Paladin: Solid Class all around, High BAB, Strong Fort Save. Class features are very strong. Ability to heal, handle undead, A strong mount built in. Spell casting in later levels, Not strong but the ability to had versatility to the class. Strong HP with a d10. Skill list is ok but skills gained is weak and Int isn't a needed Attribute for a lot of Paladins. This class is good in melee. has options outside of melee. The code of conduct can add strong roleplaying avenues for players. Overall this is a strong top Tier 3 class out of the book. Add in PRC's and ACF's and this class only gets better. The ability to hybrid with classes like Ranger or Bard make a strong case in itself. Paladins make great mounted combat with their mount and Cavalier can be a strong damage output class in the right situation. Overall a very strong class and becomes solid in a Tier 2 role.

hope this helps some etc. I will do Complete Warrior next and work my way through the base classes as I find the time:)

[JNAProductions]

Barbarian... Tier 1...

Examples of massively versatile Barbarians, please? Because, under your system, I'd rank Barbarian a solid T3. Great in combat-and not much else.

[CaPtMalHammer]

was actually in the midst of changing that lol:0 tier 3/tier 2 not tier 1.

[JNAProductions]

I still would like an example of a T2 Barbarian (under your definition, of course-not the JaronK T2).

[flappeercraft]

Just a quick mistake I found. Cleric does not have poor Fort. You should change that just to be a bit more accurate.

[SilverLeaf167]

Okay, before anything else, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just try to understand how your ranking system works, without unnecessary comparisons to the "usual" tier system. Some examples:


Barbarian: The Barbarian class from 1 to 20 overall is very strong. Great HP, Strong abilities that boost combat, out of combat abilities with Trap Finding, and Full BAB. The Barbarian has strong Fort save but lacks in Reflex and Will saves, Wearing light armor which allows for high dex builds. AC is a weak but is expected with Rage. Skill points are few and far between. Illiteracy is an odd thing, some games can really hinder and others not so much depending on the situation. Overall is a solid Tier 2 combat class. This class for PRC's however is where it really shines. A dip or two with some ACF and this becomes paramount in GISH builds, Dervish Builds and so many more. With PRC's and ACF this class becomes a solid Tier 1.

-snip-

Fighter: This is a strong combat class but does lack some depth. The Full BAB and lots of feats make the combat possibilities great with this class. They can be the archer, the tank, the dual wielding flanker, the trip battle field control artist. Strong Fort save is nice and great HP with a d10. Poor Reflex and Will saves and lack of Skill points make this class hard to get out of it wheel house. The ability to wear any armor and any shield again aids in the variety of combat builds. This is a combat pony that does really well 1-20. Strong tier 3 class at base. PRCS and ACF. Well to be honest this class is used as a dip mostly to get needed feats for other builds. In itself there are other classes that do much better in this realm. This class falls to a Tier 4 when you take these into account.
Can you explain the huge difference between the Barbarian's ranking at Tier 1 (!) and the Fighter's at Tier 4? The Barbarian's only real advantage in "versatility" (as in, doing things other than full-attacking) comes from class skills, which they really don't have that many of, as you mention (also, they only have Trap Sense, not Trapfinding). Arguably, the Fighter's bonus feats even give them the advantage in combat versatility, allowing them to use some more unusual builds and tactics, whereas the Barbarian can't do much more than "Rage and charge in". I have no idea how the Fighter's tier is reduced by the addition of PRCs and ACFs, but in any case, their feats once again make prerequisites easier to fulfill. Besides, counting gish builds as a point in the Barbarian's favor is pretty strange, because

They're just as easy for the Fighter to use, if not easier
Apart from Rage Mages, Barbarians literally can't cast while Raging
Gishing basically just gives you some of a Sorcerer/Wizard's power, which you've rated very low on your list.

EDIT: Tier 2/3 is slightly better for the Barbarian, but you still have things to explain.


Rogue: A class with a good flavor but I think its mechanics get in its way. Sneak attack and evasion make it a good off melee flanker. Its trapfinding and skills makes it great at dungeon runs things. Its skills are one of the few real saving graces here. lots of skill points allows some versatility in the role it takes. 1-20 though it has a not great BAB, Good Reflex but poor Will and Fort saves. Light armor makes it Dex dependent. Not as Stat driven as the monk but still not great. Overall this class seems to get in its own way a lot and is Tier 4. With PRC and ACF however dipping into this class is great. So many options. Unseen seer, Dervish and many others. The ability to add damage to any build and skill points to help those classes that are inept at skills makes this well worth a few levels. Its ACF which allow the damage to be useful against Undead etc helps as well. The versatility the skills and damage buffing add to other builds make it Tier 2 easy when you add in the PRC and ACF.
Again, you're quoting gish builds (Unseen Seer) as a point in the Rogue's favor, even though the point of those is to make a Sorc/Wiz hybrid. Also, how is a combat-competent class with the most skills in the game less "versatile" than a vanilla Barbarian?


Bard: Versatile class. Bardic knowledge is a useful DM tool to help progress story lines when things get stale or stuck. Good casting list and progression is slower then a wizard but good. Heal abilities from Arcane caster always nice to add versatility. Overall the HP is mid grade at best, Saves are not that impressive. Class abilities allow versatility in combat and out from knowledge skills to mind altering skills to party buffs. Bard from 1-20 is a great support build and sits strongly I feel at Tier 3. PRC and ACF actually help the bard to shine several builds with druid or cleric to theurge etc. Lyrist build is strong. ACF's to help mold the build taking away certain abilities and honing in on others. I don't think there is enough to make Bard Tier 2 but is is a solid Tier 3 build all around.
With the right buffs, a Bard can easily compete in combat, while also having all those skills, spells and class features. You seem to like gishes a lot, how is the PHB's closest equivalent to an arcane gish rated so low?


Sorcerer: 1-20 this class is versatile thanks only to its spell casting. Less spells then those who get the full list but with the correct choices can be very useful. Can be the party face, the party jester, the party blaster all with the right spell selection. Poor HP and BAB hurt the class a lot but for a casting class has a handful of options and casting without preparation is a huge boon here. Tier 3 from 1-20. PRC's and ACF's help a lot. the ability to get metamagic aids what it can do making it better at its natural self but also opens up GISH builds and even a decent summoning build. Ok not nearly as good as the Druid but solid. The PRC and ACF help fix the classes shortcomings and make it a solid Tier 2 class.

Wizard: Finally the wizard. From 1-20 this is one of the worse base classes out there. Limits spells in the spell book without roleplaying and putting in spells during gameplay. Straight out of the book this class suffers with only 2 spells at each level yikes. no versatility at all. Awful BAB, Awful HP, no class skills really. the ability to specialize is nice but this class is overshadowed by almost everything. Tier 5. Now this class is also a two sided coin. When you add in PRC and ACF this class skyrockets. This class can be anything and has the ability to do it. Unlimited spell potential. GISH builds, Theurge builds. Best controller in the game when it comes to combat. what it lacks in its base form when you add in the ability to find a scroll and scribe it into the book and the multitude of options when you open up ACF etc. This class becomes Tier 1 without a doubt.
My issues start right with the first sentence: yes, Sorcerers (and most casters) are only versatile thanks to their spellcasting. However, spellcasting is literally the most versatile thing in the entire game, by far, even in core. Even with a Sorcerer's limited spell selection, there's still more options and possibilities than any non-caster class will ever have. No idea how the Wizard ended up at Tier 5, since they have more freedom of choice with spells and are pretty much identical to Sorcerers in most non-casting aspects. You mention PRCs and ACFs taking them to Tier 1, but even a Wizard 20 with nothing but core spells is way more versatile than any other similar build.

I feel like you really need to explain what you mean by "versatility", because that's probably going to become the main shouting match of this thread.

Also, since gish options are raising the non-casters' tiers, why not the casters'?

[JNAProductions]

HOLY CRAP! I missed you rating Wizards at T5! T5! What the flippity dip?

[AvatarVecna]

Also, since gish options are raising the non-casters' tiers, why not the casters'?

I can answer that one. It goes something like "Adding casting to a monk makes the monk awesomer, adding monking to the caster makes the caster lamer".

[SilverLeaf167]

I can answer that one. It goes something like "Adding casting to a monk makes the monk awesomer, adding monking to the caster makes the caster lamer".

Yes, but that logic only works in a world where Wizards aren't Tier 5. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, multiclassing to a better class really shouldn't raise the worse class's tier.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Complete Warrior:

Samurai: 1-20 this is kind of a cross between the two weapon ranger and a fighter with the arrogance of a paladin. I will go through and rate this class based on its rank among all classes but first: In eastern themed games this class might break tier 2. In a setting where only eastern classes are used this class can shine. As is written in the book and now with taking everything into account: The Class gets Full BAB and D10 HP great for any melee builds, Strong feats for free throughout making it a solid two weapon fighting class. Their code of honor makes them interesting to roleplay in certain games. No so great Saves and poor skill points make them a bit weak in the versatility department. good melee class in combat not even a real argument for ranged version so I make this a Tier 4 class. PRC and ACF and this class does not change much at all., Exotic weapon master maybe? some similar ones fighters can take. Outside it setting this class really suffers. and stays in the Tier 4 range.

Hexblade: Casting and combat abilities, This was an early attempt at merging the two, 1-20 the class is decent. Full BAB, Good HP, casting although limited can help it versatility. Chr based so could pull of a face but the lack of skill points hurts, the curse with the right stat and push behind it can really help in combat against many brutes etc and good resitances against magic. This is a solid Tier 2 class I feel. PRCS and ACF. this class can blossom into several areas adding in a companion cat that lowers the ac of enemies. good secondary nature. can go into both melee and magic prestige classes. This class stays at Tier 2 for me but just barely almost drops to Tier 3.

Swashbuckler: The best of the classes in this book. 1-20 is a solid build with Good HP, Full BAB and some defensive abilities. Weapon finesse almost one notes this build but can be overcome. Can be two weapon fighter, ranged archer or crit finding rapier wielder,. Good roleplaying flavor helps this a bit two if your on the high seas a lot in a game. Tier 3 class base 1-20. Add in PRCS and ACF and in this case cross classing with other classes like rogue etc and this class gets new life. The ability to stack levels with other classes help the versatility of this class a lot aka Daring Outlaw etc. This class becomes a low Tier 2 just getting there when you add in the outside options.

Thank You,

[CaPtMalHammer]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

[JNAProductions]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

What do you mean "Straight out of the book"? That includes Polymorph. And Wish.

[TheIronGolem]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Assuming a Wizard who never scribes spells is like assuming a Fighter who never picks up a weapon.

EDIT: And even then, as noted they still get access to game-changing spells.

[SilverLeaf167]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

No, a Wizard with 4 spells known per spell level (approximately the same amount as the Sorcerer, varying a bit with character level) is still extremely powerful and versatile. Most of their ACFs aren't that good and while there are some amazing PRCs, all of them pale in comparison to the sheer value of their full casting. Besides, why are you assuming that they won't scribe more spells? That doesn't require PRCs or ACFs.

Roleplaying and fluff adding "versatility" to a class is just an oddity I'm going to accept for now.

[eggynack]

Ignoring the individual assessments, I don't really get the metrics you're using. In particular, who cares what skills or stats a class happens to have? It's relevant to what a class can do, certainly, but I feel like a way better metric for what a class can do is, y'know, what a class can do. A class can have completely terrible skills or saves and still be capable of amazing things, and a class can have great skills or saves and still be pretty limited. Because, when all is said and done, skills and saves tend to be relatively low order elements of power in this game. Which brings things to the most important question. Are these elements being considered equally? If one class has amazing skills and stats but nothing else, while another has great class features and nothing else, does the former class rank higher? Even though the former could be a monk/expert gestalt while the latter could be a wizard with a poor will save, which you've ranked inexplicably low? It's also not precisely defined what it means to be good in a PrC build. It's an ostensibly valid metric, but it feels like it could mean several completely different things.

[flappeercraft]

You lost me when you said Wizard is a tier 5..... Tell me something other core classes can do that it can't. I will assume no PrCs and ACFs on the wizard, just straight wizard 20 and I bet it could easily do anything others can.

[TheIronGolem]

Roleplaying and fluff adding "versatility" to a class is just an oddity I'm going to accept for now.

I don't get that either. Why is a Samurai more "versatile" in an Eastern-flavored setting, for example? What can he do there that he can't in Eberron or Forgotten Realms?

[AvatarVecna]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Regular Core-only Grey Elf Wizard, starting Int 20.



Wizard Lvl
Lvl 1 Spells
Lvl 2 Spells
Lvl 3 Spells
Lvl 4 Spells
Lvl 5 Spells
Lvl 6 Spell
Lvl 7 Spells
Lvl 8 Spells
Lvl 9 Spells


1
Protection From Evil
Grease
Identify
Charm Person
Burning Hands
Silent Image
Feather Fall










2
Mage Armor
Enlarge Person










3

Glitterdust
Web









4

Detect Thoughts
Spider Climb









5


Fly
Haste








6


Stinking Cloud
Waterbreathing








7



Evard's Black Tentacles
Polymorph







8



Scrying
Ice Storm







9




Teleport
Dominate Person






10




Wall Of Force
Telekinesis






11





Acid Fog
True Seeing





12





Chain Lightning
Contingency





13






Plane Shift
Forcecage




14






Control Weather
Reverse Gravity




15







Mind Blank
Polar Ray



16







Discern Location
Polymorph Any Object



17








Gate
Dominate Monster


18








Astral Projection
Time Stop


19








Energy Drain
Shapechange


20








Mass Hold Monster
Wish




With no feats, no ACFs, no PrCs, and only Core spells, a straight wizard (at every level past about 5) has a power and versatility the Barbarian can only dream of.

[Jormengand]

Regular Core-only Grey Elf Wizard, starting Int 20.[/SIZE]

With no feats, no ACFs, no PrCs, and only Core spells, a straight wizard (at every level past about 5) has a power and versatility the Barbarian can only dream of.

You forgot Tenser's Transformation, not because it's a good spell but because it's an awful spell which still makes you better at fighting than most martial classes.

[Esprit15]

Can't tell if trolling, or really missing the point. Given that almost the entire tier system is turned on its head, I'm inclined to say the former.

[Troacctid]

Yeah I can't take this seriously at all. Wizards have little potential for growth? Barbarians are strong from 1–20? Pssh. *waves hand dismissively.*

[AvatarVecna]

You forgot Tenser's Transformation, not because it's a good spell but because it's an awful spell which still makes you better at fighting than most martial classes.

Also, while I didn't mention it at the time, the only summoning spell I took for that wizard was Gate, which is super-late in the game. Summoning spells make this character even more bonkers powerful/versatile, particularly planar binding.

Also, while I'm on the subject of that particular wizard "build", if you wanna make it even more versatile with the absolute minimum effort, take the Elven Generalist ACF and the feat Collegiate Wizard, and gain an additional four spells to your spellbook at every wizard level.

[AnachroNinja]

I know this is a minor caveat in this big like of nonsense.... But did anyone else notice he skipped Paladins entirely? And that's despite mentioning them in the Samurai notes. But yes, this is ludicrous and ridiculous both.

[JNAProductions]

Question: How does an Eastern theme raise a class TWO TIERS?

[Jack_McSnatch]

The rogue -arguably the most versatile base class in the game- is tier 4 in a list based on versatility?

Futhermore Wizard is tier 5, and flippin barbarian is tier 1?! Either you don't know how this game works, or you're higher than I am.

[JNAProductions]

The rogue -arguably the most versatile base class in the game- is tier 4 in a list based on versatility?

Futhermore Wizard is tier 5, and flippin barbarian is tier 1?! Either you don't know how this game works, or you're higher than I am.

T1 Barbarian was a typo. He meant T3-T2.

Which is still not really overly accurate.

[Red Fel]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that some of your explanations could really do with some explanation, you really shouldn't be relying on PRCs in placing a class. That's like saying, "This car gets great mileage if you tow it everywhere with a truck," or "This bread tastes amazing if you put some chopped beef on it." You have to assess the class on its own merits - what can the class do on its own?

Now, here, you say that Wizard is Tier 5, and becomes Tier 1 when you add other stuff in. Don't do that. Look at the Wizard, with its access to any spells on the Wizard spell list, and access to Wizard ACFs, and say, "Based on this, the Wizard is Tier ___." You do similar things with other classes; stop. Don't talk about dips or ACFs, it defeats the purpose.

It also looks to me like you're adjusting your scores based on feedback. And that's fine; I commend you for that. But once you've adjusted those scores, take a step back; aside from the Wizard's score, are you really that far off from the established (love it or hate it) Tier System? Your melee classes hover around Tier 3, your casters Tiers 1 and 2. (Again, other than Wizard.) That's already roughly where we are. If you wind up in the same place, what's the goal?

[neriractor]

HOLY CRAP! I missed you rating Wizards at T5! T5! What the flippity dip?

this, and T2 samurais* made me laugh pretty hard, and I thank the OP for it :smallsmile:

*only in their setting mind you

[Drezius]

Barbarians don't have Trap Finding.

[flare'90]

Barbarians don't have Trap Finding.

"Take it on the chin" is the barbarian Trap Finding.
There is also an ACF in Dungeonscape for some kind of trap disabling.

[stanprollyright]

Guys, this might actually make sense at level 1!

[Calthropstu]

I have to solidly disagree with "wizard as t5 only getting better with prc" et all, and with sorcerer being t3.

Out of the box, sorcerer can cast more spells than anyone. By level 9 you're never running out of spells assuming a solid 4-6 encounter adventuring day with some minor conservation. And, from the fact that a single item gives sorcerers the ability to repick all their spells known as well as the fact that pages of spell knowledge exist, you can pretty much, once shape change comes into play and you can get infinite wishes, have every spell in creation as a spell known. Blatant t1 potential with even more potential versatility than the cleric.

As for wizards, their skills are offset by the fact int is their primary stat: granting HUGE numbers of skills rivaling the number enjoyed by rogues. Wizards have access to magic that easily overshadows that of clerics at every level. Better attack spells, better defense spells, better utility spells... their and sorcerer's magic is far superior. The only thing clerics have over wizards, magic wise, is buffing spells... and even that is debatable. Wizards, 1-20, have spell selections that make them even more versatile than the cleric. So, you have a nice diplomacy bonus? That's nice... I cast charm/dominate person getting pretty much whatever I want from them. So you have some nice armor? I have mage armor, shield, can make myself invisible, incorporeal, grant myself damage reduction and clone myself. So you have nice bab? I have quickened truestrike.

And honestly, in higher level fights, those animal companions from the druids kinda just get in the way... if not become a liability as they are dominated fairly easily. Hell, if you don't take steps to prevent it, an enemy ranger can simply goad it into attacking your fellow party members.

[Stealth Marmot]

I am actually starting to wonder if this is a troll thread.

Anyone who thinks samurai is potentially tier 2 while wizard is tier 5...

[lord_khaine]

Omg the narrowmindedness of the replies here... Did i wander into the wrong forum by mistake..? :smallannoyed:

Its like to a lot of people its much more important to mock or ridicule ideas that divert from the accepted norm, than to try and figure out where those thoughts might have come from..


Question: How does an Eastern theme raise a class TWO TIERS?

Well.. i think its mainly focused in those easter themes that are actually japanese themes. I think the OP is mainly thinking of OA here, where the samurai is the ruling class, and have a much higher status than anyone else.

[Stealth Marmot]

Well.. i think its mainly focused in those easter themes that are actually japanese themes. I think the OP is mainly thinking of OA here, where the samurai is the ruling class, and have a much higher status than anyone else.

By that logic, shouldn't the Aristocrat class be tier 3?

[CaPtMalHammer]

Ok so not a troll thread. and I am taking your opinions into account. well at least the constructive ones. those of you are just here to mock and not have a civil discussion and who seem to want to attack my thoughts and me personally I am ignoring completely. And I am going to update wizard. Tier 5 you are right is a bit harsh. As much as I try to be objective I may allow personal bias at times. I will be updating its tier momentarily. and I did forget paladin and I apologize for that. Tier 2 Samaurai was taking into account that in an eastern only setting that no other classes other then eastern classes would be allowed. this limits you to Shugenja, Ninja etc. In that case the samurai is actually a pretty good class overall. I do welcome constructive discussion and look forward to continuing this with the other classes. those who have made some valid points I am taking into account and will update as I see fit. I did preface this whole thing with these are my opinions and did ask you all to be civil.

[Vaz]

this, and T2 samurais* made me laugh pretty hard, and I thank the OP for it :smallsmile:

Lorddrako again?


Barbarians don't have Trap Finding.

They have high Con and Low Int, which is pretty much the same thing.

[Pugwampy]

Personally I would put the divine caster class types at the bottom of the awesome list just because they are the ones whose borrowed super powers are most at risk of disappearing if players dont jump through hoops .


You cannot measure something like this . Every DM plays it different and thats before you add in random dice rolls .

The OP values versatility . From my personal experience I feel that specialists thrive in DND land .
Its impossible to compensate for every possible situation . Jack of all trades but Master of none helps nobody .

People talk for years about the Half Orc monster that kills everything in under 2 rounds or that specialist healer that does nothing else except pooping limitless HP to players

[CaPtMalHammer]

Ok corrected Barbarian to say trap sense instead of trap finding. Added in the Paladin to an earlier post for the player's handbook. Again I apologize for that over sight. I updated my account on wizard taking out what I am sure was my personal biased and changing them from tier 5 to tier 3 base and remaining my conviction that overall they are a tier 1 class. Again I welcome any constructive discussion.

thank You.

[TheIronGolem]

Tier 2 Samaurai was taking into account that in an eastern only setting that no other classes other then eastern classes would be allowed. this limits you to Shugenja, Ninja etc. In that case the samurai is actually a pretty good class overall.
But by the tier definitions you've set forth, it doesn't matter what other classes (if any) are allowed. A given class is capable of certain things, independently of what other classes may be capable of. Taking other classes off the table doesn't change what that class can do. So if you want to stick with your current tier definitions, you need to go through your assessments and purge all assumptions about setting, then look again at each class in a vacuum.

[CaPtMalHammer]

PHP 2 Base Classes:

Beguiler: This is a strong class. I think as the books went on the classes overall became stronger. This class ok so so HP with a D6 but has a good casting progression and knows all spells on the list which even though the list is truncated a bit is still a really strong thing. Decent skills and a really good skill list. Great Will save. Poor Reflex and Fort. Poor BAB. Class skills are good the ability to feint spell casting is really strong. Free meta magic feats are also very good. This class can be a good primary caster or face or even a decent Rogue of the party. Overall this is a solid Tier 2 class. PRC's and ACF's are also strong. Not so much in the ACF realm but this class leads well to many PRC's which will keep casting, improve spells known and can even go into different realms. Focus on face abilities like Chameleon or Master of Masks. Focus Rogue and go Unseen Seer etc. This class sits solid on a Tier 2 all around.

Dragon Shaman: The weakest of the three classes in this book. Good HP with a D10, Ok BAB, Great Fort and Will Save. Not good Reflex Save. Auras that buff party members etc are ok and have utility benefits in and out of combat. A bit of healing ability which is nice to be a supplement to a main healer. Natural armor and defenses which are nice and do help keep the Shaman alive. Breath Weapon which is good early on but loses effectiveness later in levels against tougher opponents. Still gives an option. Really bad skills per level and a not so good skill list does not help this class. This class I put as either an off tank or support role and is a Tier 4 class overall. No Real ACF's to speak of for this class and PRC's can aid this class a lot. Going into other areas to bolster their abilities and maybe even add casting. Overall this class tends to stay in the Tier 4 realm.

Duskblade: This is a solid class from 1-20. Ok HP with a D8, Full BAB, Strong Fort and Will save, poor Reflex save. Casting that is very limited but can be very helpful in combat and class abilities that allow you to cast and attack at the same time is a large boon. Armored Casting is a great boost as well. Free metamagic like abilities. Ways over overcoming spell resistance helps later in this build as well. Skills per level is awful but the fact they get all knowledge skills on their list makes them useful in non-combat situations. They can be a primary Tank. A secondary tank in combat. Never going to be a primary arcane caster but can make a decent face of a party if needed. A solid Tier 3 class. Almost Tier 2 but not quite. No ACF's and PRC's can be helpful but few offer any full benefit other then adding spells to the spell list. This class is a solid high Tier 3 all around.

Will work on Complete Adventurer next.

[lord_khaine]

By that logic, shouldn't the Aristocrat class be tier 3?

Good point, and i would also agree with it, if the setting they were in actually allowed them to wield as much influence as the samurai is described to have in the basic OA setting.
I do disagree with the OP on several points. But i can follow his thoughts about a Samurai in a OA campaign. At least regarding one thats not purely about chopping things up, and being a murderhobo.

[CaPtMalHammer]

But by the tier definitions you've set forth, it doesn't matter what other classes (if any) are allowed. A given class is capable of certain things, independently of what other classes may be capable of. Taking other classes off the table doesn't change what that class can do. So if you want to stick with your current tier definitions, you need to go through your assessments and purge all assumptions about setting, then look again at each class in a vacuum.

The overall assessment of that class was done with not taking setting into account. I made a secondary comment about how is that setting it would be stronger. I took both the non-setting and the "vacuum into account". I apologize if that was not clear ill go back and look at the entry and try to clarify that more.

[Drezius]

can you please answer what a wizzard can't do? Because now, you rate them in t3.

[Deadline]

Trap Sense is not an ability that lets you find traps. It gives you a minor (+1 - +3?) boost to saves against traps. It's ... kinda crummy as far as abilities go. The ability that lets you find traps is called (appropriately enough) Trapfinding. In core, only Rogues get it.

Also, seconding the question about what things you think the spellcasters can't do? (Your Tier 3 definition being "good at its main role and not much else").

[lord_khaine]

Also, seconding the question about what things you think the spellcasters can't do? (Your Tier 3 definition being "good at its main role and not much else").

I would say being the party face is one of the few things most spellcasters suck at. You also need a lot of additional resources/books to make them muscle in on other roles, like being the party rogue.

[Flickerdart]

I would say being the party face is one of the few things most spellcasters suck at.
Charm person?


You also need a lot of additional resources/books to make them muscle in on other roles, like being the party rogue.
Summon monster I?

[Deadline]

Charm person?


Summon monster I?

These. And assuming low-level (where resetting traps seem to be rare), trapfinding can be accomplished with a few goats. It was pretty common for our party to purchase some small livestock before heading out of a town, because you can use goats or pigs for food, or as trapfinders, or as bait, or ....

[GilesTheCleric]

I would say being the party face is one of the few things most spellcasters suck at. You also need a lot of additional resources/books to make them muscle in on other roles, like being the party rogue.

I would disagree with this in general as well. Besides Flickerdart's idea to simply obviate the skill with a spell, you can easily leverage the skill with spells if you enjoy rolling dice:

Diplomacy: This is a trained-only skill, so you should invest at least one rank into it if nothing else. For non-holy clerics, it’s far more efficient to invest ranks into this than cha if you’re planning to be a party face.

Consider: In order to have a +4 to this skill at level 1, you need either 4 ranks or an 18 cha. 18 cha costs 16 points in point buy, which is more than half of the 25 PB that’s the suggested default. Even under the “high-powered” (read: typical allowed point buy on forums) allocation of 32 points, that’s still half of all your points. As a cleric, you get (2+int)(x4) skill points at first level. For a non-human with 10 int, that’s 8 skill points to begin with. Getting your four ranks does still cost half of your resources, but it’s probably half at a maximum. If you’re a human, have more than 10 int, or grabbed Nymph’s Kiss BoED 44, then you’re in a much better place in terms of skill points. Further, you keep getting more skill points each level, while your ability scores are basically set, aside from magic items.

Now, let’s talk uses for this skill. As written, you need at least a 15 in order to improve someone’s attitude by one step. At first level with 4 ranks, that’s a 45% chance. However, when you look at the two most useful changes in attitude, hostile to indifferent (DC: 25) and indifferent to helpful (DC: 30), it’s clear that this is pretty powerful if your check is consistent. With a consistent check of 30, you can avoid any fight if you’re able to talk for a minute beforehand, and you’re able to sway any random schmuck off the street into helping you with something, even if it puts them in harm’s way.

Before even considering your spells, consider this skill from the perspective of an commoner aristocrat. A magic item giving you a comp bonus to your skill is the least expensive of all magical items, costing only bonus2 x 100 gp. So, a +10 comp item costs 10k gp. That’s the total WBL of a 5th level character. At 5th level, your max ranks are 9. So, you have a +19 on your check, plus other misc bonuses for cha, feats, and whatnot. You’ve got at least a 45% chance to hit a 30 on your roll. Half the time, a random person you go up to on the street will agree to help you out with something (eg. a fight). At least 70% of the time, you can stop a likely fight altogether.

Now, when you swap your spells into the equation? Divine Insight SC 70 gives you 5 + CL insight bonus to your check. By level 5, that’s a free 10k +skill item, giving you the same % chances to succeed as the aristocrat. What if you added a few more buffs? Guidance of the Avatar Web gives you a +20 comp bonus. +20. With that single spell, you’re already at a 50% chance of hitting a DC 30.

At level 3, the first level you have access to both spells, you can have a +29 (+20 GotA, +8 DI, +1 rank) to your check. At level 3, you can sway people to your side and stop fights 100% of the time, and that’s without a lick of a cha bonus.

Needless to say, the diplomacy rules, RAW, are easily broken, even without casting spells. The moral of the story is to ask your GM how “diplomancy” will be handled in your game before considering using this. How they’re handled will determine how good this skill is. By default, it’s quite good, but you have few ranks to invest (and you don’t really need to invest very many to make use of it).TL;DR: At level 3, a caster is blowing any skillmonkey out of the water, while still rolling the dice for the skill check. Having (at least) one skill buff spell always prepared seems like a common practice to me, since it's applicable to any situation during the day that you might want it.

I will give you that trapfinding can require a fair amount of resources, given that SM I and Find Traps both have short durations by default, though you could also create some undead or cast Summon Elysian Thrush, which will both trapfind for you all day.

[neriractor]

Lorddrako again?

The OP? No, far too subtle if it was him, and just because a recent banned user likes wizards more than sorcerers (whitout prestige classes) it doesn't mean that anyone who thinks higher of them is LordDrako, I also don't think he is a troll, some people just have different ideas about things, and that's okay the hive mind can wait

[VisitingDaGulag]

OP, if you actually want to look at another board's general consensus before it crystalized about 4 years ago, here's some required reading (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8914.0). Start there and argue +/- 1 tier from there. He was nice enough to answer my PMs, or you could just continue the discussion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8925.0).

In general you'll find it's:
1: casters who can prepare a whole new, power characterlist of spells tomorrow
2: casters who still have access to all the best spells.
3: Casters who specialize in one grouping of spells, or mundanes that swap all their class abilities tomorrow
4: skillUMD users (it's the best skill because, magic)
5: Feat massing classes (no feat gives you gate)
6: No interesting class features

[CaPtMalHammer]

Thank you all again for the continued feedback. I did get PHB 2 rated now. I also fixed the Samurai wording so its more clear on my intentions. I think I may need to go back and redefine my requirements for each tier at some point to make it easier. As for Wizard overall they have the potential at being versatile yes. Out of the book they have limited spells. I know my interpretation of taking out the any scribed spells and just going off the base is a bit different just hope you can go with me with it for awhile. The Wizard's Spell list is great and yes with the right skill set can be anything it wants. There are a couple of drawbacks base that makes me throw it into a lower Tier. Again 5 was to low that was my own bias and I have reevaluated. Tier 3 seems solid.

Cons:

1- Low HP, yes they have spells that can boost their AC and give them Miss Change etc to help this but it takes time to prep these. If surprised or found unprepared the Wizard is XP waiting to happen for some NPC. If prepped still not great if a good archer or strike were to get through.

2- Spell selection, Their versatility is based on spell selection. There are a couple of thought processes I have read on this but to me its not possible to build spells to cover every possible thing that could happen with the limited known spells and spell slots in the base build. Add in roleplay and treasure where you can buy and scribe scrolls and make your spell list insane changes that. Again why adding that in they become a Tier 1 in my estimation. As is, it takes a day to retrain spells. if you know what your going into and what will be needed they can prep for it great. If they go with a spattering of utility spells to be ready for whatever happens. They could run out and be in trouble.

3- The are great blasters, Battle field controllers and decent Summoners, I would argue the Druid is better but still. They can be ok at skill challenges with the right spells, again coming down to preparation, but a rogue etc doesn't have to preparer at all they have it active at all times. The could be a could face again with the right build set but takes multiple things that may take away from its core. They are versatile and can with the right prep do anything. The point is other classes do those things already without having to have time to prep.

I will concede that in later levels the preparation becomes easier and the gap closes. I agree in the end that they are a Tier 1 class overall but based solely on a no roleplay base book list of spells and class that they fall to tier 3.

Hope this helps a little im sure people will still disagree but this may help explain a bit better. :)

Please keep the discussion going I do care what people have to say, as long as its productive.

[CaPtMalHammer]

[/QUOTE] It also looks to me like you're adjusting your scores based on feedback. And that's fine; I commend you for that. But once you've adjusted those scores, take a step back; aside from the Wizard's score, are you really that far off from the established (love it or hate it) Tier System? Your melee classes hover around Tier 3, your casters Tiers 1 and 2. (Again, other than Wizard.) That's already roughly where we are. If you wind up in the same place, what's the goal?[/QUOTE]

Sorry it took so long to respond to this. I am trying to respond to as many honest questions etc as I can. And true some of my thoughts may rank close to the "Estalblished" Tier system. This is a personal project of mine where I'm trying to see where my thoughts meet the "norm". I hope there is room in the gaming world for a few different thoughts etc. the end goal is to evaluate all of these and then see where I'm at. Maybe ill be off in many ways and some people will find it helpful with the discussion. maybe it wont change anything except my own personal discovery. Either way I wanna see where it leads:) Thank You.

[Esprit15]

You mention Barbarians as Dervishes, but Dervishes can't rage and do their dance at the same time.

Monk not having weapons isn't an issue when it gets the highest base damage in the game naturally. Also, without doing some book diving, monks want strength if they ever plan to hurt anything.

You say the rogue gets in its own way a lot, but never say how.

Rangers get a great list of spells, especially when you leave core. Things like "This next arrow hits and crits, so eat many shot" remain nasty even after half of things become crit immune. They don't use their spells to blast, they use them to make themselves deadly, or for utility, like hiding while tailing someone. Pretty good at what it does (combat, tracking) is your T3 definition.

Why don't you think there is enough that a Bard does to put it to T2? They have their primary role (buffing, diplomacy) but have the skills and BAB to be helpful in other areas.

T3 on the sorc is cute. What can't a sorcerer do with its spell selection?

As has been pointed out, assuming a wizard won't use their class feature to expand their spells known is weird, but even on that assumption, you still get someone extremely versatile. What roles can't a wizard fill?

Paladins actually struggle against undead due to their lower cleric level for the purposes of turning. What are their non-melee options that make them versatile?

Agree on Samurai.

Hexblades are getting Polymorph around the time the Wizard can select Shapechange. Their spell list is decent, but not exactly versatile. What roles do they work in besides combat, and do their abilities really support them in combat?

Does Swashbuckler really do well in combat? They don't really get as much as it seems. INT to damage, DEX to hit, but that makes them dependent on two abilities for fighting instead of just STR, and their class features don't really help them much. Granted, Daring Outlaw lets them get SA progression, but that's just more damage, which keeps it at "Good at one thing, useless elsewhere."

***

It's not always clear what metrics you are judging things by. You say that Bard saves are unimpressive but speak kindly of Wizard saves, which lose out of Reflex but are otherwise the same. Some classes you allude to problems, but never say what they are. Just having a d10 hitdie and full BAB should not make a class T3.

Your tier list doesn't have enough nuance to it, either. There's a reason that Tier 4 is traditionally the "Good at one thing and not much else, or Jack of all trades but master of none" area. The higher tiers need more layers between them, since those layers between quality matter more than layers between mediocrity.

[CaPtMalHammer]

You mention Barbarians as Dervishes, but Dervishes can't rage and do their dance at the same time.

Monk not having weapons isn't an issue when it gets the highest base damage in the game naturally. Also, without doing some book diving, monks want strength if they ever plan to hurt anything.

You say the rogue gets in its own way a lot, but never say how.

Rangers get a great list of spells, especially when you leave core. Things like "This next arrow hits and crits, so eat many shot" remain nasty even after half of things become crit immune. They don't use their spells to blast, they use them to make themselves deadly, or for utility, like hiding while tailing someone. Pretty good at what it does (combat, tracking) is your T3 definition.

Why don't you think there is enough that a Bard does to put it to T2? They have their primary role (buffing, diplomacy) but have the skills and BAB to be helpful in other areas.

T3 on the sorc is cute. What can't a sorcerer do with its spell selection?

As has been pointed out, assuming a wizard won't use their class feature to expand their spells known is weird, but even on that assumption, you still get someone extremely versatile. What roles can't a wizard fill?

Paladins actually struggle against undead due to their lower cleric level for the purposes of turning. What are their non-melee options that make them versatile?

Agree on Samurai.

Hexblades are getting Polymorph around the time the Wizard can select Shapechange. Their spell list is decent, but not exactly versatile. What roles do they work in besides combat, and do their abilities really support them in combat?

Does Swashbuckler really do well in combat? They don't really get as much as it seems. INT to damage, DEX to hit, but that makes them dependent on two abilities for fighting instead of just STR, and their class features don't really help them much. Granted, Daring Outlaw lets them get SA progression, but that's just more damage, which keeps it at "Good at one thing, useless elsewhere."

***

It's not always clear what metrics you are judging things by. You say that Bard saves are unimpressive but speak kindly of Wizard saves, which lose out of Reflex but are otherwise the same. Some classes you allude to problems, but never say what they are. Just having a d10 hitdie and full BAB should not make a class T3.

Your tier list doesn't have enough nuance to it, either. There's a reason that Tier 4 is traditionally the "Good at one thing and not much else, or Jack of all trades but master of none" area. The higher tiers need more layers between them, since those layers between quality matter more than layers between mediocrity.

Thank you and I agree, I just updated my metrics. this is a work in progress so is far from perfect. I have been updating things as this evolves. Wizard is now a solid Tier 3 and not Tier 5 like it was and a Tier 1 as always overall. I am going back through my initial assessments and making updates as I can. This is a long project. And I am trying to become more descriptive and evolve my explanations as I can. I do have real life to handle at times to though:) Thank you for your feedback I will take it into account of course. may not change my mind or make me adjust my Tier rankings but it is not being ignored.

Thank you.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Updated Barbarian: After looking at my change in metrics. I reworded my thoughts so they may be a bit clearer. The Barbarian has gone to a straight Tier 3 class based on the new metrics. Tier 2 was a little high. Updated Ranger as well and some typos I had found.

I am going to back through the others as well as needed and updating wording etc. Time permitting.

[Drezius]

can you explain why wizard and barbarian are in same tier? approximately, the two class can make same things?

[DEMON]

I actually think Wizards fit perfectly into Tier 3 - they are great at doing one thing and one thing only. That thing is, of course, being good at everything.

[lord_khaine]

Charm person?

Im.. just really confused about this answer.. I mean. Is it serious? :smallconfused:
Have you honestly been in games where being the party face could be handled by a few castings of charm person?
Where starting to suddenly cast a spell would not be more or less the same as suddenly drawing a gun on someone?


Summon monster I?

Again, you seriously mean that?
because, i know its the popular answer. Its just not one that could realistically have been used in any game i have been a part of. A summon spell lasts 6 sec per caster level. Its very limited how much it can actually check for. And the only thing it can do is to check for traps the barbarian way. Thats only something your going to get away with if the GM allows it. There are to many ways to counter it.


These. And assuming low-level (where resetting traps seem to be rare), trapfinding can be accomplished with a few goats. It was pretty common for our party to purchase some small livestock before heading out of a town, because you can use goats or pigs for food, or as trapfinders, or as bait, or ....

Goats are perhaps going to be less useful against trapped chests, doors, ladders, or alarm traps. But cant argue against the practicality of having bait/fresh food along.

[Vaz]

The OP? No, far too subtle if it was him, and just because a recent banned user likes wizards more than sorcerers (whitout prestige classes) it doesn't mean that anyone who thinks higher of them is LordDrako, I also don't think he is a troll, some people just have different ideas about things, and that's okay the hive mind can wait

Schwing. ;)

[Calthropstu]

Arcane casters make bad face people?

Hello, sorcerers are one of the best face people around. Between extremely high charisma and their nigh inexhaustible spells per day, sorcerers can pretty much convince anyone, anywhere any time even in the middle of combat. They are the second best face people around only behind the bard because the bard can also get charm person and also casts off charisma.

In fact, most spells a sorcerer generally picks stay relevant from level 1 to level 20. And with the whole psychic reformation trick, they become the most versatile spellcasters in the game.

[Eldaran]

Why does the Wizard have "awful BAB" the Sorcerer have "poor BAB" and the Beguiler have "ok BAB" when they all have the exact same BAB?

[lord_khaine]

Arcane casters make bad face people?

Hello, sorcerers are one of the best face people around. Between extremely high charisma and their nigh inexhaustible spells per day, sorcerers can pretty much convince anyone, anywhere any time even in the middle of combat. They are the second best face people around only behind the bard because the bard can also get charm person and also casts off charisma.

Yes. I do know that sorcerers generally have the highest charisma, they also have crappy class skills, a low number of skill points and by default a low priority int.
And no, i dont considder a course of action where a will safe or a bad initiative roll will give you a sword in the face to be the party face. The face roll is most important in situations where you cant fight your way out of trouble. And opening up with casting a spell is just going to risk getting everyone killed.

[Calthropstu]

Yes. I do know that sorcerers generally have the highest charisma, they also have crappy class skills, a low number of skill points and by default a low priority int.
And no, i dont considder a course of action where a will safe or a bad initiative roll will give you a sword in the face to be the party face. The face roll is most important in situations where you cant fight your way out of trouble. And opening up with casting a spell is just going to risk getting everyone killed.

Yeah, their low skill points are one of my major pet peeves about the class. Still, you can prestige into a lot of different classes with better skill points which will still give you sorcerer caster levels. In fact, in 3.5 especially, prestiging out loses absolutely nothing... because their ONLY class ability is spell casting. In pathfinder, they get a lot more benefits (special abilities, extra spells, more class skills etc) but since it seems you are talking about 3.5 (since you didn't mention any of the excellent abilities characters get in pathfinder) we'll stick with that discussion.

going straight sorcerer is a huge detriment in reality because they gain almost nothing from their class. Going into spell casting prestige classes that don't sacrifice caster levels is definitely the best way to go.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Why does the Wizard have "awful BAB" the Sorcerer have "poor BAB" and the Beguiler have "ok BAB" when they all have the exact same BAB?

Because its a typo and thank you for pointing it out. I will update today when I can find a moment:)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Complete Adventurer Base Classes:

Ninja: 1-20 this is similar to the Rogue. I think that this class is actually a bit worse then the Rogue overall. Ok BAB, not Great HP with a d6, Good Reflex save but poor Will and Fort saves. AC boosting ability similar to Monk. The ability to become invisible is nice and very useful. Sudden Strike is ok and helpful for damage ramp. Some of the other abilities either come way late in the build like Evasion or like poison use can be effective or not depending on build and setting. Like the Samurai I think in an Eastern setting where only Eastern classes are allowed this class gets a boost in usefulness taking on the Rogue roll in a party and might be Tier 3 in that setting. This class has a good Skill list and an ok amount of skills per level. This is a solid Tier 4 class. PRC's and ACF's. Not much change with this class. some dips I could see in certain builds. Lends itself to an unseen seer build etc. Overall even with PRC's and ACF's this class remains at T4.

Scout: 1-20 this is an actually solid class. OK BAB, Good Reflex save, poor Fort and Will saves. Skirmish is good for extra damage etc. although like Rogue etc they have the issue with undead and things. Lots of survival and tracking abilities. Good defensive boosts. Fast movement as well. They do get battle fortitude which helps alleviate in a small way the Fort save but adds to their initiative. Good Skill list and good amount of skills per level. This class makes a good archer, melee tumble build. can be the party face or even take over as an off tank if needed. Can be the skill monkey as well. This class is a solid Tier 3. PRC's and ACF's add a lot to this class. Cross class with Ranger and be able to use precision damage against undead etc alone makes it worth doing. Some interesting potential with this class overall. The class never quite reaches Tier 2 but is a high high Tier 3 solidly.

Spellthief: 1-20 the spell thief is a lot like other casting classes. Good BAB. Strong Will save but poor Reflex and Fort saves. Decent Skill list with a Decent amount of skill points per level. Casting list is decent and progression is a bit slow but not horrible. They are great against other casters or spell users due to their steal spell ability. Not as effective against other types but not uneffective either. Absorb spell and stealing SR as defensive buffs. Sneak attack and trapfinding as well. this class can fill in for a primary caster or a rogue build. below average HP with a d6 so not great as a front line choice. Overall I place this in Tier 3 although a high Tier 3. PRC's and ACF's can add to this class. Either by expanding the spell book or adding more to the rogue abilities. This class can go either way. myself this class is almost better 1-20 then most. It remains a solid Tier 3.


Thank You, again these are my thoughts and can evolve and change as time goes on. I will be doing Complete Divine next. :)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Edited wording and thoughts on Sorcerer and fixed a few more typos:)

[Drezius]

in your table, wizards and barbarians do the same thing? because both are tier 3.
Just a few exemples: identify monster, fly (lv 5), invisibility (lv 3), sleep (lv 1), ray of enfeeblement (lv 1), enlarge person (lv1),

[CaPtMalHammer]

yes I believe that based on all the factors out of the book they are both Tier 3 without optimization. The big change comes when you add in other things. Barbarian remains a 3 and Wizards become a 1. I have given my reasons in a previous post for Wizard. I know its what most people have disagreed with so far. :) its my personal thoughts they are going to be different. I think people are having trouble buying into my vacuum that I set up for the base class without PRC or ACF or roleplaying added in. I tried to be as clear as I could.

[JNAProductions]

Wizard base class is Tier 1. No PRCs or ACFs needed.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Wizard base class is Tier 1. No PRCs or ACFs needed.

That is your opinion and quite frankly a popular one. I tend to disagree and have given my reasons. :) you don't have to agree with me and I appreciate your stance on them. It is your right to do so.

[JNAProductions]

What can a wizard not do?

[The Glyphstone]

yes I believe that based on all the factors out of the book they are both Tier 3 without optimization. The big change comes when you add in other things. Barbarian remains a 3 and Wizards become a 1. I have given my reasons in a previous post for Wizard. I know its what most people have disagreed with so far. :) its my personal thoughts they are going to be different. I think people are having trouble buying into my vacuum that I set up for the base class without PRC or ACF or roleplaying added in. I tried to be as clear as I could.

The issue people have is that you're ranking 'tier' based on supposed versatility, but are horrifically and vastly underestimating what arcane casting is capable of. Due to the sheer volume of spells printed for 3.5 (and even if you limit it to Core spells), a wizard with the right memorized spells can do literally anything, and they can change what spells they have memorized from day-to-day to ensure their selection for the task at hand is right. Unlike the sorcerer, there is no cap on how many spells they can learn and thus choose from; you've chosen to limit wizards to only the 2 spells/level they get upon leveling up and defining any additional spells they buy as 'roleplaying', which is a gigantic nerf and likely greatly confusing everyone who thinks you are evaluating the wizard as it's actually written in the PHB. Spending money to buy scrolls and scribing them into a spellbook isn't roleplaying any more than a barbarian activating their Rage ability is roleplaying; they're both inherent features of the class chassis.

Core Wizard 20, no PrCs or ACFs, is one of the most versatile classes in the game, more so than any combination of PrCs and ACFs can give. Claiming otherwise means you're using a definition of 'versatile' that is distinctly different from its printed one.

[Calthropstu]

What can a wizard not do?

Wear heavy armor.

[JNAProductions]

Wear heavy armor.

They can. They just can't do it WELL. :P

And okay, let me put it this way-what challenges can they not overcome?

[CaPtMalHammer]

besides the fact they can not wear heavy armor which is true.. and made me chuckle a bit.. :) I tried to explain this in an earlier post as well I gave my reasons. I don't think it was read by many so I will try and repeat them here.

Cons:

1- Low HP, yes they have spells that can boost their AC and give them Miss Change etc to help this but it takes time to prep these. If surprised or found unprepared the Wizard is XP waiting to happen for some NPC. If prepped still not great if a good archer or strike were to get through.

2- Spell selection, Their versatility is based on spell selection. There are a couple of thought processes I have read on this but to me its not possible to build spells to cover every possible thing that could happen with the limited known spells and spell slots in the base build. Add in roleplay and treasure where you can buy and scribe scrolls and make your spell list insane changes that. Again why adding that in they become a Tier 1 in my estimation. As is, it takes a day to retrain spells. if you know what your going into and what will be needed they can prep for it great. If they go with a spattering of utility spells to be ready for whatever happens. They could run out and be in trouble.

3- The are great blasters, Battle field controllers and decent Summoners, I would argue the Druid is better but still. They can be ok at skill challenges with the right spells, again coming down to preparation, but a rogue etc doesn't have to preparer at all they have it active at all times. The could be a could face again with the right build set but takes multiple things that may take away from its core. They are versatile and can with the right prep do anything. The point is other classes do those things already without having to have time to prep.

I will concede that in later levels the preparation becomes easier and the gap closes. I agree in the end that they are a Tier 1 class overall but based solely on a no roleplay base book list of spells and class that they fall to tier 3.

Hope this helps a little im sure people will still disagree but this may help explain a bit better. :)

[JNAProductions]

Except it's not roleplay to get more spells. It's buying magic items. Is a Fighter getting a +1 Greatsword to increase his hit, damage, and overcome DR/Magic roleplaying? Or is it just something any competent character does?

Likewise, so is buying more spells.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Except it's not roleplay to get more spells. It's buying magic items. Is a Fighter getting a +1 Greatsword to increase his hit, damage, and overcome DR/Magic roleplaying? Or is it just something any competent character does?

Likewise, so is buying more spells.

that's true but I didn't take into account magic items etc in my criteria. Sometimes an artifact built can make a ninja amazing when they really are not. So magic weapons, magic armor. magic gear. scrolls, wands. etc I left out of the equation for the initial base assement. they have the ability to scribe scrolls and I did take the potential into account but didn't let the potential overshadow what was written. I find rage without prep and abilities that don't require extra prep better overall then those abilities that have potential to be game breaking. Which is why when I take into account PRC's and ACF's and Roleplaying which I guess I need to define better:

Roleplaying: Things that happen during a game that are not specifically printed in the book. Buying of Gear. Magic items. gifts from NPC's etc, Using scrolls bought or found to increase spell power.


with this in place the wizard becomes a clear Tier 1.

[JNAProductions]

If that's the case, how does a Barbarian handle, say, a smart, very old black dragon? One that never lands and instead just strafes with its breath the entire time. They can't fly, their ranged options aren't very good, and they're looking at DR 15/Magic. Their power attack is useless, since they're limited to ranged attacks, so they're looking at (Let's assume they're level 20 and started with an 18 in strength. They now have 23 in strength, so with a composite longbow of +6, they can deal) 1d8+6 damage, or 14 max without a crit. That's 0 damage.

[The Glyphstone]

Wealth By Level is printed in the book. It is the expected amount of magical gear and equipment a character of that level is expected to have; evaluating a D&D character without their gear is ludicrous. While you cannot predict exactly what gear any character will have, you know the approximate gold value of their possessions, barring exceptionally poor use of consumables and/or a stingy DM.

[CaPtMalHammer]

If that's the case, how does a Barbarian handle, say, a smart, very old black dragon? One that never lands and instead just strafes with its breath the entire time. They can't fly, their ranged options aren't very good, and they're looking at DR 15/Magic. Their power attack is useless, since they're limited to ranged attacks, so they're looking at (Let's assume they're level 20 and started with an 18 in strength. They now have 23 in strength, so with a composite longbow of +6, they can deal) 1d8+6 damage, or 14 max without a crit. That's 0 damage.

Base he doesn't do it well. He tries to through Javelins and does not do well. If you optimize him and take into account weapons etc he has about the same change.

How does a wizard with 2/spells per level and no magic items, staffs etc handle it? Not well at all, almost as well as the Barbarian. He throws spells and they are either resisted by SR or the Dragon makes his saves. The Wizard has a slight better chance maybe so it would make him Tier 3 top rather then Tier 3 middle like the Barbarian but does not change the Wizards placement. You optimize the Wizard and suddenly they become Tier 1 and can handle the Dragon threat better then the optimized Barbarian. Which is why I did both Tier rankings. but everyone seems to just dismiss the fact I explained two separate things.

[The Glyphstone]

It's not that people haven't read your explanations, it's that your explanations are founded on exceptionally faulty logic. When you intentionally ignore entire chapters of the core rulebooks, like magic items and the WBL charts, as 'roleplaying', people rightfully call foul because you aren't truly evaluating 3.5 as it is written, but a heavily houseruled variant of your own design.

[JNAProductions]

Gates in a Solar, since the dragon is evil.

Throws a couple of Energy Drains at them.

Shapechange into a dragon.

Wail of the Banshee-their SR is only 23, and you have a +20 to pierce that.

Quickend True Strike, Maximized Shivering Touch will one-shot it.

[CaPtMalHammer]

I set out a project and situation. I tried to strip away the trapping and optimzations and take a look at the core of things. the base of things. Many may not agree with this but here is why I find this odd. The majority things that Wizard is Tier 1 overall. I agree that Wizard is Tier 1 overall. I set up a very specific stripped back version that all I asked is people take for what it is. The issue is not my Tier ranking in that situation. the issue is people not wanting to accept my limitations on things and go with as I have laid it out. Yes I am not perfect and my explanations could have been better and have been evolving throughout this process. I am human and I'm sorry if I make mistakes. The argument is that people disagree and I have given my reasons and have listened to the counterarguments and I still feel the same way. Repeating the arguments 200 times isn't productive anymore. If someone has something new lets listen to it. im not going to answer anymore personal attacks on my logic in a world I created.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Gates in a Solar, since the dragon is evil.

Throws a couple of Energy Drains at them.

Shapechange into a dragon.

Wail of the Banshee-their SR is only 23, and you have a +20 to pierce that.

Quickend True Strike, Maximized Shivering Touch will one-shot it.

True but based on my limitations of the base the wizard at level 20 would only know 2 level 9 spells. How is he casting 4 of them? This is the point I don't think people are understanding or are just refusing to accept my limitations I set forth in this project.

[JNAProductions]

I set out a project and situation. I tried to strip away the trapping and optimzations and take a look at the core of things. the base of things. Many may not agree with this but here is why I find this odd. The majority things that Wizard is Tier 1 overall. I agree that Wizard is Tier 1 overall. I set up a very specific stripped back version that all I asked is people take for what it is. The issue is not my Tier ranking in that situation. the issue is people not wanting to accept my limitations on things and go with as I have laid it out. Yes I am not perfect and my explanations could have been better and have been evolving throughout this process. I am human and I'm sorry if I make mistakes. The argument is that people disagree and I have given my reasons and have listened to the counterarguments and I still feel the same way. Repeating the arguments 200 times isn't productive anymore. If someone has something new lets listen to it. im not going to answer anymore personal attacks on my logic in a world I created.

The issue is, you don't appear to be listening.

You say a Wizard and Barbarian would perform similarly against a very old dragon at level 20, when that's demonstrably not true. The Barbarian is pretty much entirely out of luck unless the dragon lands and the Barbarian can charge it, but the Wizard has pooploads of options to deal with it.


True but based on my limitations of the base the wizard at level 20 would only know 2 level 9 spells. How is he casting 4 of them? This is the point I don't think people are understanding or are just refusing to accept my limitations I set forth in this project.

He doesn't need to cast them all. Those were all SEPARATE solutions.

Also, doesn't he get 9ths at level 17, 18, 19, AND 20?

[The Glyphstone]

True but based on my limitations of the base the wizard at level 20 would only know 2 level 9 spells. How is he casting 4 of them? This is the point I don't think people are understanding or are just refusing to accept my limitations I set forth in this project.

He would know 8 at level 20, in fact. 2 learned at each of level 17, 18, 19, and 20.

[AvatarVecna]

yes I believe that based on all the factors out of the book they are both Tier 3 without optimization. The big change comes when you add in other things. Barbarian remains a 3 and Wizards become a 1. I have given my reasons in a previous post for Wizard. I know its what most people have disagreed with so far. :) its my personal thoughts they are going to be different. I think people are having trouble buying into my vacuum that I set up for the base class without PRC or ACF or roleplaying added in. I tried to be as clear as I could.

Earlier in this thread, I posted a wizard spellbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21538345&postcount=20) - not a build, which would include feats and items, just the pure spells available to that wizard. I included no ACFs, no PrCs, no feats, no extra spells from scribed scrolls, and only used Core spells. If what you're saying is true (that wizard and Barbarian are T3 unless the wizard uses stuff besides just the basic wizard class), then the Barbarian should be able to contribute to just as many situations just as effectively as the wizard. Now, I understand it's a big list, so I'll include...let's say 4 checkpoints, at which I'll ask if the barbarian can perform a couple roles at that point which the wizard can perform:

At level 5, a Wizard can enhance their party's mobility by granting individual party members a climb speed or (with a bit more effort) a fly speed, and is also capable of protecting the party from falling long distances; the closest thing I could see the Barbarian doing that could accomplish something vaguely similar is optimizing their ability to jump and carrying party members with the barbarian's immense strength when they jump, but that's not quite as effective as a climb speed, isn't very comparable at all to a fly speed, and doesn't help against falling damage. Additionally, the Wizard is capable of reading people's minds, and manipulating their minds such that they consider the wizard a friend; the barbarian could potentially do something similar enough to both of these as well if they optimize their Sense Motive and Diplomacy/Bluff checks, but not one of those three skills is on the barbarian class skill list, so I'm not seeing how the barbarian approximates this particular level of social assistance.

At level 9, a Wizard can enhance their party's mobility drastically, either granting the entire party the ability to breath underwater for long durations, turning a party member into a sizable creature with a fast weird speed type (to allow them to carry the party while flying/jumping/swimming/climbing/burrowing great distances quickly), or teleporting the party up to 900 miles based on a vague location description. The Barbarian could potentially do away with the need for waterbreathing if they were capable of swimming fast enough that the party could just hold their breath, but that would be a very high Swim check that I don't think the Barbarian can pull off at that level - and the barbarian certainly can't grant any movement type to a party member, nor can they teleport the party any distance, much less such a vast distance, so I'm at a loss to see how the Barbarian is as effective as the wizard on this front. Additionally, the Wizard lock down large swaths of the battlefield without moving, grappling every enemy within 20 ft of a specified point, or denying creatures within a similarly-sized area their standard actions, both of which massively limit the enemies ability to act and grants the party a significant action economy advantage. The closest I can see to a Barbarian accomplishing this is a build focused around extending reach and locking down the battlefield (perhaps a Goliath Barbarian Mountain Raging with a Reach weapon and having a Jack B Quick feat set-up or similar, but that's very feat/attribute/gear intensive, making it difficult to fulfill the other roles as well). Finally, the Wizard can monitor people, locations, or objects from great distances without significant difficulty; while the Barbarian has Listen as a class skill, they don't have Spot, and neither one is particularly useful at distance in any case, much less the distances Scrying can pull off.

At level 13, the wizard can grant themselves or a party member immunity to illusion spells; I cannot think of anything the Barbarian does that even comes close to this, but maybe you've seen something that I haven't? The Wizard can also trap an enemy within a virtually indestructible prison with no ability to resist or escape for hours on end; maybe a Barbarian could optimize their grapple in a way that nobody could ever use escape artist or grapple to get out, and Freedom Of Movement doesn't work either? The Wizard can also transport the party to another dimension; once again, I'm unsure how the barbarian would get the party around this obstacle, but maybe you've seen a neat ACF that I haven't.

At level 17, the wizard has gained the ability to alter the weather as it pleases them, disrupt gravity in a localized area, grant themselves or a party member immunity to illusions and enchantments for hours on end, turn anything into anything else, potentially permanently, open a gate through which you could summon just about any creature in existence. Can a barbarian do any of these things? Can a barbarian do anything even remotely similar to these things? Can a barbarian solve the problems these abilities solve? I'm curious to hear your argument.

As with the last time I made this argument (both in this thread and previously), the caveat is of course that it's gotta be one barbarian build that's doing these things, or at least a significant portion of these things, at each of the checkpoint levels. Once again, I must express sincere curiosity as to your faith in the barbarian: I wasn't aware that they could do most of these things, but you seem convinced that they're about as versatile as wizards, so surely they can partipicate in these non-combat situations in a way that they aren't universally overshadowed by the wizard's efforts in the same area?


He would know 8 at level 20, in fact. 2 learned at each of level 17, 18, 19, and 20.

Heck, if they're an Elven Generalist with Collegiate Wizard, they could know 20 of them!

[CaPtMalHammer]

ok I agree the wizard is better overall then the barbarian that has never been in question. I don't find wizards tier 1 based on all aspects of their build. and your right you have shown and everyone has shown that wizards can handle some things better. here's is my point though. a wizard has to know the dragon is coming to be prepped for it. The contention im making above all else is that a Barbarian is always ready with his ability. A wizard might not be. He may have the wrong spells prepared for a situation. Where a barbarian can attempt and use his abilities in any situation. A wizard cant ask an enemy to wait a day so I can be better prepared.

[JNAProductions]

ok I agree the wizard is better overall then the barbarian that has never been in question. I don't find wizards tier 1 based on all aspects of their build. and your right you have shown and everyone has shown that wizards can handle some things better. here's is my point though. a wizard has to know the dragon is coming to be prepped for it. The contention im making above all else is that a Barbarian is always ready with his ability. A wizard might not be. He may have the wrong spells prepared for a situation. Where a barbarian can attempt and use his abilities in any situation. A wizard cant ask an enemy to wait a day so I can be better prepared.

Except the Wizard CAN use Divinations to find out what's going on in the future and prepare accordingly.

[AvatarVecna]

ok I agree the wizard is better overall then the barbarian that has never been in question. I don't find wizards tier 1 based on all aspects of their build. and your right you have shown and everyone has shown that wizards can handle some things better. here's is my point though. a wizard has to know the dragon is coming to be prepped for it. The contention im making above all else is that a Barbarian is always ready with his ability. A wizard might not be. He may have the wrong spells prepared for a situation. Where a barbarian can attempt and use his abilities in any situation. A wizard cant ask an enemy to wait a day so I can be better prepared.

The wizard also has a number of combat spells prepared, all the time, from the same list I posted earlier; similarly, Polymorph on its own can accomplish most any combat need the wizard has, if the wizard choose the right form upon casting, so with that single spell slot they'll be solving a combat, including the one against the dragon. Similarly, the Wizard build I posted earlier has Scrying, so prefight information gathering isn't exactly gonna be difficult - particularly since usually the DM tells you things like "there's a dragon scouring the land, we need you to go slay at", at which point the wizard prepares their anti-dragon stuff. But if all else fails, and it turns out the wizard wasn't prepared for the dragon, they aren't boned, they just teleport 900 miles away to a safe place and rest to reprepare spells (assuming they didn't leave slots open to prepare extra spells later in the day based on challenges). Oh yeah, and this repreparation doesn't take 24 hours, it takes 9 at most (8 to rest, 1 to prepare), and if the wizard is an elf (as mine is) with a Ring Of Sustenance (a useful and cheap item for a mid-high level wizard), that 9 hours goes down to 3 (2 to rest, 1 to prepare).

In short, the idea of a wizard with a very generic loadout not being able to deal with most threats is just you not realizing how versatile spells like Polymorph are (not to mention broken BS I didn't list, like Planar Binding and its Greater version), a wizard that's uninformed of even a vague idea of what threats they're potentially facing today is a wizard who's risking his life on bad assumptions, and a wizard that's poorly prepared for the current challenge was still smart enough that they don't have to ask the enemy for permission to leave and reprepare, they just do it.

EDIT: Still waiting to see if Barbarian can do stuff outside of "hit things hard" to anywhere near the degree of versatility the wizard has that they deserve to be in the same tier.

[Troacctid]

Wear heavy armor.
Aha! Not true! A wizard can wear heavy armor! It just screws her over if she does!

[AvatarVecna]

Aha! Not true! A wizard can wear heavy armor! It just screws her over if she does!

Only if they don't get rid of the ACP and ASF. Needless to say, there's a slew of options available for reducing these numbers drastically, and if both are reduced to zero, there's no penalty for wearing armor you're not proficient in.

EDIT: Well, it's "needless" to say, because I imagine that you were already aware of these relatively cheap methods.

[Calthropstu]

Aha! Not true! A wizard can wear heavy armor! It just screws her over if she does!

Since wizards tend to dump strength, and since plate mail tends to be over many low strengthed max encumbrance characters, many wizards can literally not put it on. However, yes... all things being equal, a wizard could wear plate mail and take the associated negatives... but then they'd pretty much become the t5 that OP originally assigned to them lol.

[Drezius]

ok I agree the wizard is better overall then the barbarian that has never been in question. I don't find wizards tier 1 based on all aspects of their build. and your right you have shown and everyone has shown that wizards can handle some things better. here's is my point though. a wizard has to know the dragon is coming to be prepped for it. The contention im making above all else is that a Barbarian is always ready with his ability. A wizard might not be. He may have the wrong spells prepared for a situation. Where a barbarian can attempt and use his abilities in any situation. A wizard cant ask an enemy to wait a day so I can be better prepared.

can you elaborate? i mean, barbarian can Rage 1/four levels. without Rage, he can charge and attack, like a summoned creature.
What you think?


btw, sorry for my bad english, CaptMalHammer.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Yes Barbarian can rage only 5 times a day or so based on feats of course. When the Barabrian runs out of rage he is still strong. still have a weapon of come sort , still has HP highter then most. When a wizard runs out of spells he has a stick and cant hit anything with it. :)


Im never going to convince you that classes without magic can be just as versatile and effective. I understand that you think barbarians are Tier 12 in a 5 tier system and the worse thing sense Herpes. Ok that was a bit harsh but I was exaggerating to make a point. :) Within my setup even if I buy into the fact that a wizard 100 percent of the time can be 100 perfect and prepared for anything from dinosuars to meteors to purple kittens with cute bunny ears. In my stripped back world without magic items etc. A barbabrians HP alone help them in certain situations. if you assume for sake of argument that both the barbarian and the wizard have a 10 for their Con stat, which I know is crazy, the barbarian would clearly have more and the wizard may have dumped points there for concentration. But lets say 10. At level 20 the Barbarian has 240 HP max, Wizard 80. The black Dragon from above wins initiative and full attacks. He hits the barbarian. the barbarian is still standing and has a chance to do something. He hits the wizard. max damage and that dragon can almost one shot the Wizard without him casting a single spell. This is of course assuming no prep time and no surprise round etc. Just pointing out that you seem to think Barbarians are the most miserable class and wizards walk with angels and talk to God directly. its not that cut and dry. I see them as more equal then you do that's all. Now when you add in everything else as I have said 200 times before the Barabrian falls way behind and Wizards become Tier 1 and are not even in the same league.

Again the points in the thread are exaggerated to make a point and are in no way an attack on anyone personally. this was meant for dramatic effect only.

Thank you.

[Drezius]

FYI, i NEVER play a caster. Every character i made in the last 19 years, are marcials. Rogue, fighter, ranger without spells, barbarian. I just trying to understand why a lv 20 wizard, your exemple, dont cast any buff. The wizzard npc in DMG, a blaster one, have some buffs/hour in they list.
Im open to discuss, i really want to see what a wizard cant do.

[CaPtMalHammer]

It is an over simiplification. yes the wizard at that level had mage armor on and maybe stone skin etc. The point was that the barbarian is not as weak as everyone here is saying they are. I have already said over and over and over and over again that in the end the wizard is superior. The point is that the barbarian can be just as versatile in many ways. You come across a water way to get to an item. the barbarian jumps in and swims across and the wizard flys if he has it prepped. you need to get to the bottom of a cliff. the barbarian climbs down the wizard uses feather fall. you both come up against a creature the barbarian attacks immedietly and is ready to go. the wizard casts a spell either to buff or attack. The wizard needs to to lift a heavy log. casts a spell and does it. the barbarian just does it. They need to travel a long distance. the barbarian uses his stamina and runs there. the wizard teleports. the point is that they can both handle things in different ways. Overall again I have said it over and over and over and over again. Wizards in the end are tier 1 after you take in effect everything. If you strip away things and go back to a more primal basic look they are much closer together. Thus the Tier 3.

[AvatarVecna]

Im never going to convince you that classes without magic can be just as versatile and effective. I understand that you think barbarians are Tier 12 in a 5 tier system and the worse thing sense Herpes.

No, I think Barbarians are a solid T4, with potential for T3 if they pick up some solid out-of-combat utility. I just think that wizards have an amazing level of power and versatility both in and out of combat. Barbarians are pretty competent at combat, they're just not particularly good at anything else without a good bit of work. That doesn't make them terrible, it just makes them not really versatile at all, and so not T3. Similarly, wizards aren't necessarily perfectly prepared for everything, but their spells are versatile enough to be useful in most situations, and some spells (particular Polymorph and its big brother Shapechange) allow the wizard to essentially spontaneously be whatever creature can perfectly solve the problem at hand, so claiming the wizard can only compete if they're "perfectly prepared" is also an exaggeration.


Ok that was a bit harsh but I was exaggerating to make a point. :) Within my setup even if I buy into the fact that a wizard 100 percent of the time can be 100 perfect and prepared for anything from dinosuars to meteors to purple kittens with cute bunny ears. In my stripped back world without magic items etc. A barbabrians HP alone help them in certain situations. if you assume for sake of argument that both the barbarian and the wizard have a 10 for their Con stat, which I know is crazy, the barbarian would clearly have more and the wizard may have dumped points there for concentration. But lets say 10. At level 20 the Barbarian has 240 HP max, Wizard 80. The black Dragon from above wins initiative and full attacks. He hits the barbarian. the barbarian is still standing and has a chance to do something. He hits the wizard. max damage and that dragon can almost one shot the Wizard without him casting a single spell. This is of course assuming no prep time and no surprise round etc.

Contingency: if I'm about to be hit by something that will deal a majority of my HP in damage, Dimension Door on self.

That's a very basic, very generic contingency that becomes available at 12th lvl and onward, and means that the wizard took no damage from that dragon. If the wizard prepared specifically for the dragon, they could obviously just tank the shot with buff spells and the like, but there's no need for that when you can use Contingency to not be where they were going to attack. And now the dragon wasted its breath weapon trying to hit the wizard a split second before the magic saved the wizard, and now it's the wizards turn (and they blast the dragon away).


Just pointing out that you seem to think Barbarians are the most miserable class.

Wrong. Barbarians are great, just not at things other than direct melee combat, and the game is so much more complicated than "just direct melee combat". We've been arguing about the wizard for awhile, and I've asked you to establish what makes you think a Barbarian is as versatile as a wizard, but let's bring it back a bit: Barbarian is a solid melee DPR character (obviously) and a solid tank (obviously), but what else do they do that, in your eyes, makes them versatile enough to deserve T3? This isn't about how they compare to the wizard, it's about what makes them deserve the tier you've placed them in. Is there a skill role that they're filling that I'm just not seeing, are they more mobile than I'm giving them credit for? Is there a Barbarian ACF giving them some decent self-healing abilities, to cut down on party resources dedicated to healing? Can they contribute meaningfully to social encounters? What are you seeing that I'm not that makes the barbarian good outside of melee combat?

[ZamielVanWeber]

As far ad I can tell you are comparing a wizard not using their class features to their full potential to a barbarian using their dull potential. This is a false equivalence and seems disingenuous, especially since you are constantly forbidding the wizard from using WBL gold but permitting the barbarian optimal items (also dishonest).

If you want to make a tier list you need clear and consistent metrics something you have refused to do, and then follow those metrics.

[AvatarVecna]

It is an over simiplification. yes the wizard at that level had mage armor on and maybe stone skin etc. The point was that the barbarian is not as weak as everyone here is saying they are. I have already said over and over and over and over again that in the end the wizard is superior. The point is that the barbarian can be just as versatile in many ways. You come across a water way to get to an item. the barbarian jumps in and swims across and the wizard flys if he has it prepped. you need to get to the bottom of a cliff. the barbarian climbs down the wizard uses feather fall. you both come up against a creature the barbarian attacks immedietly and is ready to go. the wizard casts a spell either to buff or attack. The wizard needs to to lift a heavy log. casts a spell and does it. the barbarian just does it. They need to travel a long distance. the barbarian uses his stamina and runs there. the wizard teleports. the point is that they can both handle things in different ways. Overall again I have said it over and over and over and over again. Wizards in the end are tier 1 after you take in effect everything. If you strip away things and go back to a more primal basic look they are much closer together. Thus the Tier 3.

I'm still trying to figure out at what point you consider them equal though. No magic items? Barbarian needs items more than the wizard does, so that can't be it. No specific preparation? The spell list I presented earlier was pretty generic, and I could probably prepare spells from it that would allow the wizard to contribute to tons more encounters than the barbarian, and to contribute to all the encounters the barbarian contributes to as well. If a super-generic spellbook/spells prepared wizard with no feats is contributing to all the encounters the barbarian contributes to (in a roughly equal contribution, at that), and contributing to many the barbarian doesn't, how are they equally versatile in any sense?

[CaPtMalHammer]

I thought I touched on that:

Barbarians are great athletes. If you need someone for a gladiator sports comp I would use them. They actual with an interesting Chr build be a party face. Now not the talk their way out silver tongue devil but the in your face intimidate gangster type. They can take craft skills and make weapons and armor. yes their trap sense helps when they trigger a trap which is a bone head way of doing it but they can. So my question I guess is that when you play a barbarian in a game and its not combat do you just stand there and do nothing? just leave the room let others play and then come back to kill stuff? there are lots of possible things a Barbarian can do. Can they look stuff up in a library.. well yes if you spend the right skill points. Not as well but they can. They can take survival skills and actually be a party tracker with a simple feat tax. there is nothing saying a Barbarian has to have a low INT stat. There are not INT restrictions. Its not what a person would say is traditional but its there if you look.

[Drezius]

It is an over simiplification. yes the wizard at that level had mage armor on and maybe stone skin etc. The point was that the barbarian is not as weak as everyone here is saying they are. I have already said over and over and over and over again that in the end the wizard is superior. The point is that the barbarian can be just as versatile in many ways. You come across a water way to get to an item. the barbarian jumps in and swims across and the wizard flys if he has it prepped. you need to get to the bottom of a cliff. the barbarian climbs down the wizard uses feather fall. you both come up against a creature the barbarian attacks immedietly and is ready to go. the wizard casts a spell either to buff or attack. The wizard needs to to lift a heavy log. casts a spell and does it. the barbarian just does it. They need to travel a long distance. the barbarian uses his stamina and runs there. the wizard teleports. the point is that they can both handle things in different ways. Overall again I have said it over and over and over and over again. Wizards in the end are tier 1 after you take in effect everything. If you strip away things and go back to a more primal basic look they are much closer together. Thus the Tier 3.

i really apreciate the exemples. Now, you can elaborate in another situations?
Identify monster
Fly. Just fly. Not for climbing, just fly in any direction.
Incorporeal enemy.

[eggynack]

Yes Barbarian can rage only 5 times a day or so based on feats of course. When the Barabrian runs out of rage he is still strong. still have a weapon of come sort , still has HP highter then most. When a wizard runs out of spells he has a stick and cant hit anything with it. :)
Suffice to say that a wizard has more than five spells a day most of the time. Actually, suffice to say that plus the fact that reserve feats are a thing if you really want them.


A barbabrians HP alone help them in certain situations. if you assume for sake of argument that both the barbarian and the wizard have a 10 for their Con stat, which I know is crazy, the barbarian would clearly have more and the wizard may have dumped points there for concentration. But lets say 10. At level 20 the Barbarian has 240 HP max, Wizard 80.
This is a really wonky comparison. Wizards are more liable to invest in constitution, not less, even with the barbarian's class features partially dependent on it. This is because a wizard's HP largely comes from constitution. Upgrade that constitution to 14, for the sake of argument, and now the barbarian is at 280 and the wizard at 120. Same distance by addition, very different distance by percentage. Make use of the actual rules for HP and they get even closer. Now you're getting max on the first die and half otherwise, so that's 175.5 for the barbarian, 91.5 for the wizard. The wizard was once at a third of the barbarian's HP, and now they're at over half. You could give the barbarian a two point edge here, premised on water orc or something, and they still wouldn't have your original cited advantage. Except the comparison is actually even closer, because both characters have very likely raised their constitution through items and such. You've created a world where HP is solely HD reliant, and the barbarian clearly has a better HD, but the more other factors you add, the less that better HD will matter.


The black Dragon from above wins initiative and full attacks. He hits the barbarian. the barbarian is still standing and has a chance to do something. He hits the wizard. max damage and that dragon can almost one shot the Wizard without him casting a single spell. This is of course assuming no prep time and no surprise round etc.
Ignoring the fact that you set this up at level 20 where the wizard is essentially physically incapable of losing against a black dragon, your assumptions here again vastly favor the barbarian in ways that are ludicrously unrealistic. Even assuming no prep time for this fight in particular, a wizard still has a massive number of possible pre-combat buffs, as well as access to initiative boosters, effects like contingency or celerity, maybe abrupt jaunt, or hell, just some beginning of the day divinations to find out that he's going to get attacked by a dragon.


Just pointing out that you seem to think Barbarians are the most miserable class and wizards walk with angels and talk to God directly. its not that cut and dry. I see them as more equal then you do that's all. Now when you add in everything else as I have said 200 times before the Barabrian falls way behind and Wizards become Tier 1 and are not even in the same league.

The problematic thing is that "everything else" here seems to mean actually using spells. And "adding in everything else" seems to mean, y'know, letting them use those spells. And when the thing you're subtracting out is fundamental to the comparison, your new comparison comes across as kinda silly. It's like if I said, "Barbarians are pretty much on the same level as warriors. After all, ignore all the class features and, assuming the barbarian applies its skill points poorly, the warrior's basically trading away some HP for some better armor."

[CaPtMalHammer]

Barbarians are proficient with a bow. they can shoot at flying creatures. and actually you could make a ranged bow barbarian if you really wanted to. they could use a composite bow they could only pull when raging and add extra damage. Ghosts and things are tougher. They are not good against them ill concede that. They run away with fast movement and leave the encounter and the ghost behind. :) Again they can handle many things that a wizard can. and I will repeat overall as I have said a lot lol. overall Wizard is going to be a Tier 1 period. but when you take away all that stuff they are much closer. Tier 3 is a broad category here. maybe I need a 100 point system for tiers 1-20 Tier 5, 21-40 Tier 2, 41-60 Tier 3, 61-80 Tier 2, 81-100 Tier 1. barbarian at 48 and Wizard at 59 both tier 3 but shows the Wizard as being slightly better.

[CaPtMalHammer]

And the HD thing was a specific example in a much larger discussion not an end all be all :) I was making exagerrated assumptions to make a point. And I explained in another message what everything else meant. Using spells has always been taking into account. I never said that a wizard can never cast his spells:)


The point I was making when I placed them both with my VERY SPECIFIC set of rules and overall. Very specific they are much closer together at this point I don't think its me undervaluing the Wizard it might be people underestimating the Barabarian in a lot of ways. I will say this again because apparently no one is ready it or they are ignoring the fact I have said it The Wizard overall is 100 percent Tier 1 and the Barbarian is Tier 3

[eggynack]

And the HD thing was a specific example in a much larger discussion not an end all be all :) I was making exagerrated assumptions to make a point.
Well, then I was deflating your exaggerated assumptions to make the inverse point, which is that said assumptions are weirdly favoring the barbarian.



And I explained in another message what everything else meant. Using spells has always been taking into account. I never said that a wizard can never cast his spells:)
This is level 20, for some reason. One of the only spells you're explicitly giving the wizard is mage armor, and rarely stoneskin. It's a ridiculous setup, and very barely counts as giving the wizard access to spells. Because, again, a spell they very much have access to, and with much greater duration than stoneskin, is contingency. Another spell they have is shapechange.

[Drezius]

Barbarians are proficient with a bow. they can shoot at flying creatures. and actually you could make a ranged bow barbarian if you really wanted to. they could use a composite bow they could only pull when raging and add extra damage. Ghosts and things are tougher. They are not good against them ill concede that. They run away with fast movement and leave the encounter and the ghost behind. :) Again they can handle many things that a wizard can. and I will repeat overall as I have said a lot lol. overall Wizard is going to be a Tier 1 period. but when you take away all that stuff they are much closer. Tier 3 is a broad category here. maybe I need a 100 point system for tiers 1-20 Tier 5, 21-40 Tier 2, 41-60 Tier 3, 61-80 Tier 2, 81-100 Tier 1. barbarian at 48 and Wizard at 59 both tier 3 but shows the Wizard as being slightly better.

1d8 or a specific build for reproduse what a DMG npc wizard can do?
I dont want to sound rude, but already ask three times about identify monsters.
A wizard cant ask for enemy to wait a day, but barbarian can run away.... and?

[CaPtMalHammer]

Well, then I was deflating your exaggerated assumptions to make the inverse point, which is that said assumptions are weirdly favoring the barbarian.


This is level 20, for some reason. One of the only spells you're explicitly giving the wizard is mage armor, and rarely stoneskin. It's a ridiculous setup, and very barely counts as giving the wizard access to spells. Because, again, a spell they very much have access to, and with much greater duration than stoneskin, is contingency. Another spell they have is shapechange.


ok this is the last time im going to argue the dragon situation in any way. This was part of an earlier thread where they set a situation. I was giving some examples etc. I never said that those were the only two spells those were examples. the setup I proposed was a surprise round where wizard was not prepared. that's all. was an exagrated situation that's all. I have already said a billion times the wizard is versatile and good. I have never denied that. I think we are focusing on the wrong things here.

[CaPtMalHammer]

1d8 or a specific build for reproduse what a DMG npc wizard can do?
I dont want to sound rude, but already ask three times about identify monsters.
A wizard cant ask for enemy to wait a day, but barbarian can run away.... and?

not sure I understand the question this time. I was responding to your earlier 2 monsters you set up? just sorry didn't understand what your asking this time?

[eggynack]

ok this is the last time im going to argue the dragon situation in any way. This was part of an earlier thread where they set a situation. I was giving some examples etc. I never said that those were the only two spells those were examples. the setup I proposed was a surprise round where wizard was not prepared. that's all. was an exagrated situation that's all. I have already said a billion times the wizard is versatile and good. I have never denied that. I think we are focusing on the wrong things here.
My problem is that your argument doesn't even work in an environment where the dragon has a surprise round and the wizard isn't prepared. Daily and longer term buffs are a thing, as are spells that have impact in the moment even while surprised, and the spells I keep citing fit those categories. The thing is, you're trying to assert this narrow corner case where the barbarian might have an edge, and in so doing assert some weird baseline lack of competence for the wizard. The problem is, your corner case doesn't really exist, so there's no baseline lack of competence. Wizards are just kinda always good, at least by the levels you're talking about, and at levels before that too.

Edit: And what I'm focusing on, for the record, is the fact that you unjustifiably have your tier system asserting that wizards are below tier one a meaningful enough percentage of the time to be worth mentioning, and every example you provide proves more and more that your meaningful percentage is composed of weird non-existent game states.

[The Glyphstone]

You rate the Sorcerer as a tier higher than the wizard despite it being less 'versatile' than the Wizard in every possible way - exact same hit dice, exact same skill points, and exact same spell list, and the ability to use a smaller variety of spells more frequently. To paraphrase Princess Bride, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[CaPtMalHammer]

I have rated the wizard overall at tier 1.. it can not get any higher..I set up a specific world in which yes the wizard and barbarian are closer to one another..but overall have said that wizard is a tier 1..is that not clear? Maybe I just think I've typed that 100 times. And maybe I should just say this..I have given examples of how barbarians can be used side of comat..I have even said that within tier 3 which is a broad tier that wizards are at the upper end and barbarians ars on the lower end..they are not equal..the point I have made and will make is that they are closer in my opinion..that's all..I understand that I may be the only one to accept this..I understand that I may be the only Person does not think that 100 percent of the time..that the wizard is better then sliced bread..as holy as the holy spirit and as invincible as rock being hit by feather in every single situation and that the barbarian is nothing more then a stick wielding goon who should be brought out and comabt but put away for another charecter at all other times.

[CaPtMalHammer]

And at this point we are just going around in circles..I 100 percent thing barbarian is tier 3 period..I believe that the wizard overall is tier 1..I believe that In the parameters it set that the barbarian and wizard are closer together not equal but closer together..you are rejecting my points which is fine you don't have to agree..you also have not shown me enough to change my mind and at this point I'm not regardless..let us agree tha we disagree on this and discuss another class rating for awhile and we can come back to this at a later time..I have changed my mind based on feedback on a couple of classes and do value yourr opinions..I am just tired of standing in then road and spinning in a circle with this right now. In fact wizard was tier 5 on my initial and I moved it to tier 3 because of arguments made here..

[eggynack]

I have rated the wizard overall at tier 1.. it can not get any higher..I set up a specific world in which yes the wizard and barbarian are closer to one another..but overall have said that wizard is a tier 1..is that not clear? Maybe I just think I've typed that 100 times. And maybe I should just say this..I have given examples of how barbarians can be used side of comat..I have even said that within tier 3 which is a broad tier that wizards are at the upper end and barbarians ars on the lower end..they are not equal..the point I have made and will make is that they are closer in my opinion..that's all..I understand that I may be the only one to accept this..I understand that I may be the only Person does not think that 100 percent of the time..that the wizard is better then sliced bread..as holy as the holy spirit and as invincible as rock being hit by feather in every single situation and that the barbarian is nothing more then a stick wielding goon who should be brought out and comabt but put away for another charecter at all other times.
The part where the wizard is tier one is obviously fine. The part where they're also simultaneously tier three in some different way is the problematic part, because it's still not really been justified, even in the still rather undefined universe of discourse you're constructing here. As far as I can tell, what you've done along those lines is alternatively just say they're occasionally tier three, and give examples that don't make sense. If you want to justify your clearly out there position, you're going to need a more clear cut and cohesive position than a very exaggerated HP difference.

[CaPtMalHammer]

I have given more then just the HP example in previous posts.please read them first and lets discuss something else for a bit and come back to this.

[AvatarVecna]

I thought I touched on that:

If you did prior to now, it got lost in one of your posts about wizards not being as great as people think.


Barbarians are great athletes. If you need someone for a gladiator sports comp I would use them.

This is a fair point (at least, in the low levels, but I'll mention why that is later on once I've gotten past the skill section). Granted, I'm not sure how common gladiator competitions are in games, but these abilities are potentially useful in traversing a dungeon (climbing/jumping/swimming) before more competent methods of transportation come online via items and magic. Unfortunately, for reasons I'll go into detail on later in "why barbarians aren't T3 because of skills", I don't think this can really be counted.


They actual with an interesting Chr build be a party face. Now not the talk their way out silver tongue devil but the in your face intimidate gangster type.

This time a much better point in the Barbarian's favor. Granted, a Barbarian will for some stupid reason not be more intimidating than a wimpy little Bard unless they heavily focus on it, but the Barbarian focusing on it means the Bard doesn't have to, and the "bad cop" role will still be covered. A solid point for the barbarian outside of combat.


They can take craft skills and make weapons and armor.

And a bad point, although I can definitely see why you're listing it. WBL and magic items are an assumed part of the game, which is important because the CR system is similarly based on the assumption that players have access to certain abilities by a certain point. As an example, a Shadow is a CR 3 monster that's untouchable without magic of some kind - but if the Barbarian 3 has a +1 magic weapon, they can touch the shadow and aren't helpless against an equal-level monster. In a game where magic items aren't assumed, though, the Barbarian is literally incapable of touching the shadow, even by lvl 20. Why does this matter? Well, it means that the ability to craft nonmagic arms and armor is mostly pointless past about 6th lvl; the only people not using magic arms and armor at that point are the mages who don't need them, and for some stupid reason, the ability to craft plate armor is not a prerequisite for the ability to craft magic plate armor (a mage with no ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing can still make magic armor if they have the right feat, which is stupid, but it's how the system works). Similarly stupid is how even the most amazing epic non-magic craftsman in the game (like, a 60th lvl expert with Int 100 who has ALL THE CRAFT SKILLS) still can't make magic items of any kind, which means his craft skills are cool, but ultimately not very useful at all.

TL;DR: The ability to do a thing is not the same as the ability to do a useful thing, and the ability to craft nonmagic arms and armor becomes a non-useful thing fairly early in the game.


yes their trap sense helps when they trigger a trap which is a bone head way of doing it but they can.

Their trap sense helps them avoid getting hurt by a trap they trigger, but it doesn't help them avoid triggering the trap, or disable the trap to let their allies not trigger it as well. Obviously, triggering a one-use trap yourself isn't gonna cause the party an issue, but resetting traps can be problematic, particularly if you don't have a way around them. This is only made worse by the fact that the rogue (as well as half a dozen other classes scattered through the edition) all have Trap Sense or its equivalent, and can also locate and disarm traps, so your ability to function as a Polish Mine Detector isn't unique to you - and others do it better anyway, since they're stacking the bonus to dodge with a good Reflex save instead of a bad one.


So my question I guess is that when you play a barbarian in a game and its not combat do you just stand there and do nothing? just leave the room let others play and then come back to kill stuff?/[quote]

The answer is that I don't play Barbarians, because playing a character who can only meaningfully contribute by dealing melee damage and looking scary is not fun for me. I like being able to do at least a little bit more, like scout around.

[quote]They can take survival skills and actually be a party tracker with a simple feat tax.

This is another solid point, although again runs into the skill point limitation problem I'll go over below.


Can they look stuff up in a library.. well yes if you spend the right skill points. Not as well but they can

...

There is nothing saying a Barbarian has to have a low INT stat. There are not INT restrictions. Its not what a person would say is traditional but its there if you look.

The first part of this quote is the crux of the issue with saying "barbarians are T3 because skills". There were three skill roles mentioned that I thought were useful enough to be worth mentioning here: mobility (Climb/Jump/Swim), tracking (Survival with the Track feat), and scaring people (Intimidate). With just those, and absolutely nothing else, you need to be either Int 12 or Human with Int 10, and either way that's taking points away from Str, Dex, and Con, meaning that enhancing your out-of-combat utility requires dipping into your combat capabilities (although at this level, only a little bit). But when if you combine tracking and mobility into the generic role of "scout"? Well, you probably want to at least add Listen to that character, so now you need 14 or 12 Int, with the former being a significant investment by point-buy...and, to avoid being completely outshone by the Rogue, probably at least a few ranks in Spot and Search, even though it's cross-class, so you're probably now at 16 or 14 Int, at which point you're heavily dipping into your Str/Dex/Con to pull off these skills. But what if you wanna be a crafter too? Well, just weapon and armorsmithing are another two skills, so now you're a Human Barbarian with Int 18, and you have full ranks in Climb/Craft (Armorsmithing)/Craft (Weaponsmithing)/Intimidate/Jump/Listen/Survival/Swim, and then a fourth as many ranks in Search and Spot, so now you're a solid scout, a decent scarer, and a decent nonmagical arms and armor crafter.

...but you're still behind other classes at it, even nonmages. The Ranger gets more skills and a more scouty list, so they don't need to pump their Int as high, and they get Track as a bonus feat, rather than having to spend an early-game limited resource on an ability another class gets automatically. And then, when you're getting towards the mid-levels, the usefulness of crafting becomes almost nonexistent, and the ability to move around the way you do is bypassed by jumpy, tumbly monks wearing slippers of spiderclimbing. And most of the classes that are better made for being scouts are both SADder for Dex and have more skills, meaning they aren't penalizing their combat ability as much as you are to be better than you at the role. Sure, you're a great tracker, but the Ranger gets Favored Enemy bonuses and didn't need to burn a feat. Sure, you're scary, but the Bard is getting synergy bonuses and a higher Cha bonus, and will be outstripping you for your entire career.



If you'd like an example of something I consider a T3 Barbarian, look at Pathfinder's version. For starters, PF bundles lots of skills together and gave a better skill list, they also have skill unlocks that give powerful practitioners potential extra uses for skills, and PF has a feat that lets you craft magic items without being a mage (Master Craftsman, which is a good step in the right direction). They also gave Barbarian's rage powers, giving the class actual options while raging. Among those options are alternate movement types (climb speed, swim speed, fly speed, even a method of getting a burrow speed), alternate vision options like Darkvision, abilities that actually draw aggro (such as an ability that lets you make an Intimidate vs special Will save to force the enemy to attack you instead of anybody else), healing abilities, dealing ability damage on powerful blows, spell effects (such as an invisibility purge aura, personal energy resistance, etc), letting your mount rage with you, ripping your foes organs out and eating them to gain his resistances/immunities, create an area of difficult terrain by stomping hard, and sunder spell effects...and many more I haven't listed. Sure, no barbarian can do all of these things, but they can do a number of them, in whatever combination fits that character. Sure, you could pick rage powers that make you better at dealing damage, and you'll just be T4 (and super-good at dealing damage), but between

[eggynack]

I have given more then just the HP example in previous posts.please read them first and lets discuss something else for a bit and come back to this.
Just read all of your posts, and some others. First, it seems like the simultaneously core and spells/level limited wizard given would be quite capable of dealing with your cited situation through its having contingency along with teleport, so again, even in this really weird universe and scenario, the wizard would do fine. Second, as was noted, the wizard given is, if anything, not being used to its full potential. It doesn't even have planar binding, or, hell, foresight, which could easily take the place of energy drain. Third, and here's a really important one, your alternate tiering for the wizard doesn't even fit what you've established the tiering's purpose as. The second rating was seemingly for prestige classes, ACFs, and other stuff of that kind, yet here you've decided to arbitrarily have it include adding spells, which isn't part of your established set of alternate provisions at all. Fourth, and here's a fun one, even in a world which inexplicably lacks WBL, the wizard can still get more spells. After all, this listed wizard has wish, and a blessed book containing some desired spells is within that set of stuff. And, fifth, this specific wizard has astral projection. The dragon can explode its HP all it wants, but the wizard is going to be just fine and ready for dragon killing at the end of it.

[JNAProductions]

I still think that, if you're treating anything other than starting gear as not part of the class, then stuff like Barbarians should be even worse than T5. A simple Shadow or anything else incorporeal renders Barbarians or Fighters absolutely useless.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Thank You again for the responses. I have been away with holiday etc. Sorry for the delay. And there are some good points. As always im evolving my process and thoughts. Some changes will be occurring soon to this thread. When work allows :) And I agree that Barbarians can not be prepared for 100 percent of the things 100 percent of the time. My point is neither is any other class. All classes have weaknesses and will become useless in certain situations. A wizard in an anti magic fields is a low HP person with a stick, A Fighter in Plate mail is crap if he falls in the water, As mentioned a Barbarian against a shade is not good. The idea is that each class has their issues and problems. Again there will be some changes and updates coming stand by.

[JNAProductions]

Thank You again for the responses. I have been away with holiday etc. Sorry for the delay. And there are some good points. As always im evolving my process and thoughts. Some changes will be occurring soon to this thread. When work allows :) And I agree that Barbarians can not be prepared for 100 percent of the things 100 percent of the time. My point is neither is any other class. All classes have weaknesses and will become useless in certain situations. A wizard in an anti magic fields is a low HP person with a stick, A Fighter in Plate mail is crap if he falls in the water, As mentioned a Barbarian against a shade is not good. The idea is that each class has their issues and problems. Again there will be some changes and updates coming stand by.

The thing is, Wizards are useful in a massive variety of situations. The only real scenario where Wizards are shut down hard is Anti-Magic, and how common is that?

Whereas Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, etc. sans magic items fall completely flat to anything with decent DR, anything incorporeal, anything that can fly... (The last one can be solved by being specced for archery, to a degree.)

[Ludic]

This class for PRC's however is where it really shines. A dip or two with some ACF and this becomes paramount in most "Dervish" or classes that move around the battlefield a lot (Charging, ETC) builds and so many more. A single level dip of this class is used for Lion Totem and Pounce in lots of optimized builds. With PRC's and ACF this class stays a solid Tier 3.


So . . . Dervish doesn't need a pounce. Dervish gets a full attack action while moving already and can charge while dancing. Built in pounce mechanic. Can they benefit from a second way of doing that, sure, everyone can especially if charging doesn't leave them movement left over, but if you're building Dervish, why aren't you building movement?

But the skills that make a Barbarian a Barbarian hurt the Dervish. A Dervish can't dance while under the effects of Rage or frenzy, or wielding a shield (sure animated shields bend that rule). Entering these end your dance, and leave you fatigued. So now you're fatigued and trying to rage, so now once the rage is over, you're exhausted. So why on earth would you do this? Half-speed and a -6 to strength and Dex . . . That's murder for a Barb or a Dervish . . . In addition, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus (Slashing) are entries to Dervish. That's pretty feat intensive. Assuming you are anything but a human, that's 9th level if you can't get them elsewhere (for instance Combat Expertise is a bonus feat a scout can take at 4th level). And both Perform and Tumble are crossclass skills for the Barb, and the Dervish requires, that's 12 skill points you've just burnt between two skills just to meet the prerequisites. And with 4+int as your skillpool, and no reason to boost int . . . that's a heavy fine.

Also, why are you building a Tier list based on PRCs. Everyone knows base classes can move up and down the tier list with PRCs. A Tier list should merit the class on the class, not the class with a PrC.

[The Glyphstone]

The thing is, Wizards are useful in a massive variety of situations. The only real scenario where Wizards are shut down hard is Anti-Magic, and how common is that?

Whereas Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, etc. sans magic items fall completely flat to anything with decent DR, anything incorporeal, anything that can fly... (The last one can be solved by being specced for archery, to a degree.)

Not to mention it's incredibly difficult to actually get a wizard into an AMF, since it's a Self-Only Emanation. Aside from environmental hazards, the only sources of AMFs will be enemy wizards of level 11+, who voluntarily transform themselves into old men with sticks and hope they can chase down the PC wizard on foot to make both of them mutually useless. (Or a 2-level Arcane Archer dip, once PrCs go into account).

[JNAProductions]

Not to mention it's incredibly difficult to actually get a wizard into an AMF, since it's a Self-Only Emanation. Aside from environmental hazards, the only sources of AMFs will be enemy wizards of level 11+, who voluntarily transform themselves into old men with sticks and hope they can chase down the PC wizard on foot to make both of them mutually useless. (Or a 2-level Arcane Archer dip, once PrCs go into account).

I thought it was a Cleric spell too. Checking the SRD...

It's Protection 6 and Cleric 8. So an 11th level Protection Domain Cleric could do it, and without magic, a Cleric beats a Wizard, or any 15th level Cleric.

[exelsisxax]

The thing is, Wizards are useful in a massive variety of situations. The only real scenario where Wizards are shut down hard is Anti-Magic, and how common is that?

Whereas Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, etc. sans magic items fall completely flat to anything with decent DR, anything incorporeal, anything that can fly... (The last one can be solved by being specced for archery, to a degree.)

Not only are casters only vulnerable to anti-magic and dispelling effects, those effects are almost universally confined to casters themselves, and casters are once again the only ones that can counter such effects. A wizard can disrupt an AMF, the thing designed to counter him. Can barbarians dispel flight on enemy casters? nope. Can a fighter break enchantment on his party member, Nope. Can that rogue fly over the castle wall to perform recon? nope.

It's like OP assumes every noncaster has a permanent (Ex) AMF surrounding them that also doesn't supress any of their own magic items(that he doesn't let casters have for some reason).

[Ludic]

I thought it was a Cleric spell too. Checking the SRD...

It's Protection/Magic 6 and Cleric 8. So an 11th level Protection Domain Cleric could do it, and without magic, a Cleric beats a Wizard, or any 15th level Cleric.

Fixed something for you.

[JNAProductions]

Fixed something for you.

Wasn't on the SRD. Thanks for letting me know!

[Ludic]

Wasn't on the SRD. Thanks for letting me know!

I'm looking at it right now in the PHB, pg 200. You might have skipped it if you only flipped to the domain lists. But also, you're welcome.

[JNAProductions]

I'm looking at it right now in the PHB, pg 200. You might have skipped it if you only flipped to the domain lists. But also, you're welcome.

The SRD. This (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) thing. Not the PHB. I don't own the PHB anymore. I lost it, years ago. (Or gave it away? I'm not sure.)

[Ludic]

The SRD. This (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) thing. Not the PHB. I don't own the PHB anymore. I lost it, years ago. (Or gave it away? I'm not sure.)

That explains it.

[JNAProductions]

That explains it.

Indeed it does! But anyway, thanks for giving me knowledge. Tis always appreciated.

[Ludic]

Indeed it does! But anyway, thanks for giving me knowledge. Tis always appreciated.

Not a problem,

[The Glyphstone]

Right, my bad. Cleric, not wizard. The obstacle of pinning down someone who can fly, teleport, run, etc. when you can do none of the above still remains though, which was my concern mainly.

[JNAProductions]

Right, my bad. Cleric, not wizard. The obstacle of pinning down someone who can fly, teleport, run, etc. when you can do none of the above still remains though, which was my concern mainly.

Oh, most certainly. I suppose you could get a graft for (Ex) Flight, right? Or is that still magic?

But, then again, that's roleplaying, ain't it? :P

[Red Fel]

The SRD. This (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) thing. Not the PHB. I don't own the PHB anymore. I lost it, years ago. (Or gave it away? I'm not sure.)

Um, actually (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)...

Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6

[JNAProductions]

Um, actually (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)...

...

HOW DID I MISS THAT? I don't even know. Welp, now I feel silly.

[The Glyphstone]

VINDICATION!

Well, not really. But that just means equal opportunity for clerics to also take away their best feature so they can hop up and down angrily on the ground inside an AMF while the wizard flies over their head and makes rude gestures.

[Red Fel]

VINDICATION!

Well, not really. But that just means equal opportunity for clerics to also take away their best feature so they can hop up and down angrily on the ground inside an AMF while the wizard flies over their head and makes rude gestures.

Unless, of course, you're a Cleric with the Initiate of Mystra feat. You can cast in an AMF by making a caster level check with a DC of 11 + the AMF's caster level. If you're the caster of the AMF, that means both caster levels are the same, so you're really just rolling 1d20 to beat 11.

Or, you know, just use the Selective Spell feat and exclude yourself from your AMF, although you may still have a problem with effects that can't manifest inside the AMF.

Or use instantaneous spells that are unaffected by AMFs altogether. Honestly, that's the best strategy against an enemy in an AMF.

[The Glyphstone]

Unless, of course, you're a Cleric with the Initiate of Mystra feat. You can cast in an AMF by making a caster level check with a DC of 11 + the AMF's caster level. If you're the caster of the AMF, that means both caster levels are the same, so you're really just rolling 1d20 to beat 11.

Or, you know, just use the Selective Spell feat and exclude yourself from your AMF, although you may still have a problem with effects that can't manifest inside the AMF.

Or use instantaneous spells that are unaffected by AMFs altogether. Honestly, that's the best strategy against an enemy in an AMF.

Initiate of Mystra is a setting-specific feat. The OP is doing his evaluations strictly off Core and/or the book that class is printed in, so it seems fair to present counterpoints on that same basis.

Alternatively, IoM might count as roleplaying - it is, after all, being a follower of a specific deity.

[eggynack]

AMF doesn't even strictly shut down a wizard if allowed to stay up. Wizards get a whole bunch of spells, mostly instantaneous conjurations but I think that instantaneous not-conjurations that are tossed outside an AMF will continue to exist when the AMF crosses over the effect (so you can, for example, stone shape a wall between you and the caster that an AMF won't just destroy). And it's not like these are bad or all that infrequently prepared spells either. A wizard could, with pretty solid probability, just happen to have some of these spells prepared. Worst case scenario, the DM catches the wizard totally off guard once, and then the wizard preps a couple of perfectly reasonable spells from then on. Meaning that, if this is the only serious weakness you can cite, then the wizard from that point on has no serious weaknesses, and might have had no serious weaknesses before that if they thought to plan around their greatest weakness. Also, the shrunk cone of AMF blocking is always a thing, capable of mitigating a lot of the direct wizard threat involved.

[nettle3305]

This is not a relevant detail for most games, or for the considerations in this thread, but I just noticed that the SRD's entry on dead magic fields says


These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

and the SRD's entry on epic spells says


Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.

Since a dead magic plane functions "in all respects" like the antimagic field spell, this is semantic support for the claim that epic magic can be cast in dead magic zones. This, together with the fact that epic magic can be cast in antimagic fields, seems to mean that epic magic always guarantees that a wizard has some spell options, pretty much no matter what.

Initial thoughts of use include mythals, so the caster can just fire off keyed spells in an antimagic field. "Less gamebreaking" uses might include permanent shapechange emulated with the shadow seed. Throw down an antimagic field and go to town, I guess.

[The Glyphstone]

If epic magic is involved, the entire concept of game balance has already cried itself to sleep in a corner, so it's not generally worth caring about.

[Red Fel]

AMF doesn't even strictly shut down a wizard if allowed to stay up. Wizards get a whole bunch of spells, mostly instantaneous conjurations but I think that instantaneous not-conjurations that are tossed outside an AMF will continue to exist when the AMF crosses over the effect (so you can, for example, stone shape a wall between you and the caster that an AMF won't just destroy). And it's not like these are bad or all that infrequently prepared spells either. A wizard could, with pretty solid probability, just happen to have some of these spells prepared. Worst case scenario, the DM catches the wizard totally off guard once, and then the wizard preps a couple of perfectly reasonable spells from then on. Meaning that, if this is the only serious weakness you can cite, then the wizard from that point on has no serious weaknesses, and might have had no serious weaknesses before that if they thought to plan around their greatest weakness. Also, the shrunk cone of AMF blocking is always a thing, capable of mitigating a lot of the direct wizard threat involved.

This is correct. Per the AMF spell, "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." In other words, any conjuration (creation) with a duration of instantaneous can be safely fired from outside of an AMF into the AMF. And there are plenty of instantaneous conjuration attack spells. For example, Acid Splash (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) is an instantaneous conjuration creation spell that deals damage. Because it is instantly created and not dependent on magic, it can be fired directly at the wizard inside of the AMF from the outside. So while the Wizard inside the AMF is mostly magically neutered, you can still snipe away with Orb of X spells at your mostly impotent enemy.

The catch is that you can't cast it within the AMF unless you have some way of casting spells inside of one. And if you can do that, you really don't care about the instantaneous conjuration exception.

[The Glyphstone]

Though dropping large rocks on them with telekinesis is a lot more fun.

[Red Fel]

Though dropping large rocks on them with telekinesis is a lot more fun.

It is!

Until you realize the caps on falling object damage. Then it's not fun.

Until you realize that means you can drop multiple large rocks on them with telekinesis before they die. Then it becomes fun again.

You monster.

[Stealth Marmot]

It is!

Until you realize the caps on falling object damage. Then it's not fun.

Until you realize that means you can drop multiple large rocks on them with telekinesis before they die. Then it becomes fun again.

You monster.

2 falling bricks do more damage than 1 falling continent. True story.

[The Glyphstone]

What about a potted plant?

[Stealth Marmot]

What about a potted plant?

"Oh no, not again"

I might be a bit more concerned over the very confused sperm whale.

[Deadline]

2 falling bricks do more damage than 1 falling continent. True story.

True, but the continent probably imposes a circumstance penalty on the Reflex save to avoid damage.

[Troacctid]

The other difference is that after the continent hits you, you're going to be trapped underneath it, probably suffocating and/or taking crushing damage for being buried.

I mean, there is a spell that basically does this, and it deals 20d6 damage. *shrug*

[Stealth Marmot]

True, but the continent probably imposes a circumstance penalty on the Reflex save to avoid damage.

RAW doesn't mention it. In fact, evasion means I could avoid the entire thing if I have 2 levels in rogue.

[weckar]

Personally, if we are re-imagining things anyway: I would bump down the Wizard to tier 2.

Why?

At all but the highest levels, a Wizard needs something to 'overcome every challenge' nearly no other character does: Prep time. Up-front knowledge of likely situations.

[eggynack]

Personally, if we are re-imagining things anyway: I would bump down the Wizard to tier 2.

Why?

At all but the highest levels, a Wizard needs something to 'overcome every challenge' nearly no other character does: Prep time. Up-front knowledge of likely situations.
That's not really the case, though. A perfectly generic wizard list, at moderate or even rather low levels, is going to handle some arbitrary situation better than just about anything aside from maybe other tier 1's, and it's frequently going to overcome the generic list of those classes as well. Knowledge doesn't make wizards good. It makes them better. Of course, a wizard's largely unrivaled access to information means that prep time and up-front knowledge may well be considered an aspect of the class' potential, meaning that the class would do fine even if this were a true downside, but again, it all seems better evaluated as a bonus rather than a weird downside. The reason so much optimization features this kind of knowledge seeking is because, well, it's good, and wizards can do it. Fighters don't do gather much knowledge because they mostly can't, and because they can't really mechanically capitalize on what information they do get, not because they're so amazing without the information (and the same generally applies to, say, sorcerers, if to a lesser extent).

[Deadline]

RAW doesn't mention it. In fact, evasion means I could avoid the entire thing if I have 2 levels in rogue.

Actually, it does. DM's are free (and often encouraged) to apply circumstance penalties or modifiers to situations all the time.

Fair point on Evasion though. Depending on DM interpretation, that could be a pretty efficient way of fast transit (assuming you can reliably make your save). Now if we could just figure out how to pad the continent so that it absorbs the shock and doesn't destroy all the destinations you'd want to travel to ...

:smallbiggrin:

[Stealth Marmot]

Actually, it does. DM's are free (and often encouraged) to apply circumstance penalties or modifiers to situations all the time.


Does it specifically address dropping continents? :smallwink:

[Deadline]

Does it specifically address dropping continents? :smallwink:

It doesn't specifically address anything, except for noting that DMs are encouraged to use their judgement on when to apply said modifiers.

It's kind of in the same realm as spot checks. How can the PCs see the sun? After all, the distance penalties alone should make it all but impossible. Answer? Probably a hefty size modifier to the spot check due to the sun being so large. :smalltongue:

[zergling.exe]

It doesn't specifically address anything, except for noting that DMs are encouraged to use their judgement on when to apply said modifiers.

It's kind of in the same realm as spot checks. How can the PCs see the sun? After all, the distance penalties alone should make it all but impossible. Answer? Probably a hefty size modifier to the spot check due to the sun being so large. :smalltongue:

I believe Drow of the Underdark actually has rules for seeing lightsources at 10x their light radius, which would make seeing even stars possible depending on exactly how far the range is.

[Troacctid]

RAW doesn't mention it. In fact, evasion means I could avoid the entire thing if I have 2 levels in rogue.
RAW lets you give circumstance modifiers to basically whatever. It's referred to in the DMG as "The DM's Best Friend."


I believe Drow of the Underdark actually has rules for seeing lightsources at 10x their light radius, which would make seeing even stars possible depending on exactly how far the range is.
See the Light and Darkness section of the Rules Compendium.

[VisitingDaGulag]

So the OP's just echoing me and doesn't like it? Or is he complaining about the playground not knowing / rehashing old ideas?


If you actually want to look at another board's general consensus before it crystalized about 4 years ago, here's some required reading (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8914.0).

You could just continue the discussion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8925.0).

In general you'll find it's:
1: casters who can prepare a whole new, power characterlist of spells tomorrow
2: casters who still have access to all the best spells.
3: Casters who specialize in one grouping of spells, or mundanes that swap all their class abilities tomorrow
4: skillUMD users (it's the best skill because, magic)
5: Feat massing classes (no feat gives you gate)
6: No interesting class features