Help building a Cleric

[kuhaica]

The title says most of what this thread is about, but essentially some back ground info and why I need help in feel will go a long way. So, I've been using the wonderful Cleric Hand Book (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) to help me out. Unfortunately I can't really find what I'm going for in that. Perhapse I'm missing it, or its just not practical so it's not mentioned anywhere. But essentially I'm trying to build a Defensive Cleric who's secondary is acting as a Buffer and of course Healer. But my primary focus is keeping myself alive.

Now, I'm fairly sure this isn't an optimized build as I seem to be failing spectacularly at this and normally I can make a fairly broken character when I try. However here I'm stumped at just designing a cleric. Plus this is my first time playing a Cleric. Correctly.

So, some proper information rather then just rambling. I'm using all published resources, and I'm allowed some Homebrew. The less the better in my opinion as I need to present a case to my DM for the homebrew. I'm building the character to level 15, this is a True Evil Cleric acting like a Chaotic Good Cleric. This is an Elf Cleric (I know this is a poor choice but done for rp), and is a worshiper of Garyx.


TL;DR, Playing an Evil Elf Cleric up to Level 15 and need help making it a Primary Defensive with Secondary Support in mind and is first time playing a Cleric.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[GilesTheCleric]

By "defensive Cleric" you mean "getting a bunch of immunities, high hp, and AC"? If so, the reason not a lot of folks discuss it is because defense is typically not as efficient as offense in this game. That doesn't mean it's not a fine method to use, just that the forums typically focus on the "best" options more than second-best ones.

But, good news! There's no wrong way to build a Cleric. You can run a Cleric 20 with no feats, no gear, and badly-rolled stats and still do just fine.

I'd like to link you to a section (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11wxOmk4XSZOi_39LxlOVAff19bzq5bOzzkF7xv-uies/edit?usp=sharing) of a guide I'm working on, to see how well you feel it works (disclaimer: this section is nowhere near done; I just whipped it up a few nights ago on a whim). Let me know how useful it is to you, and how I could improve it?

If you're intent on playing an elf (unfortunately, they don't make very good Clerics), I'll recommend the Snow Elf from UA. It gets -cha instead of -con, which is both better for what you have in mind, and also better in general.

[John Longarrow]

Grab renewal domain... PAO at 8th.

For building a total tank, build a tank. Go with feats like Combat Expertise, extend spell, persistent spell, and DMM Persistent. Your choice on spells to keep up gets a little different (magic vestments on shield and armor + Shield of Faith) than a straight buff everyone cleric. Your main goal is to avoid being in combat though. Sit back and use your elfishness to justify shooting with a bow instead of closing in for combat.

For spell selection try grabbing save of suck spells and work and provide some battle field control. Also use Conjure Icebeast for some fun meat shields that cause auto-damage with cold. And above all remember that your best resource is those walking meat shields you call party members! Try talking them into doing all the dangerous stuff while you stay back and play "Healer". Between summoned creatures and an eventually magic bow (get an energy crystal AND energy on the bow) you can contribute to a fight without letting the lesser beings scratch your armor.

[kuhaica]

By "defensive Cleric" you mean "getting a bunch of immunities, high hp, and AC"? If so, the reason not a lot of folks discuss it is because defense is typically not as efficient as offense in this game. That doesn't mean it's not a fine method to use, just that the forums typically focus on the "best" options more than second-best ones.

But, good news! There's no wrong way to build a Cleric. You can run a Cleric 20 with no feats, no gear, and badly-rolled stats and still do just fine.

I'd like to link you to a section (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11wxOmk4XSZOi_39LxlOVAff19bzq5bOzzkF7xv-uies/edit?usp=sharing) of a guide I'm working on, to see how well you feel it works (disclaimer: this section is nowhere near done; I just whipped it up a few nights ago on a whim). Let me know how useful it is to you, and how I could improve it?

If you're intent on playing an elf (unfortunately, they don't make very good Clerics), I'll recommend the Snow Elf from UA. It gets -cha instead of -con, which is both better for what you have in mind, and also better in general.

Alright I'll look at that, and being how strong clerics are I'm fairly sure even if I build it poorly I'll still be effective. Also, not a true tank. Can't really describe it. Something that is more about avoiding the hits or gets reactions to the hits.

Also in terms to the type of elf. I just went with the standard as I got godly rolls. 3 18s, one 17, one 16 one 12. Far better then my last character who had one 18 and the rest where ten or below.


Grab renewal domain... PAO at 8th.

For building a total tank, build a tank. Go with feats like Combat Expertise, extend spell, persistent spell, and DMM Persistent. Your choice on spells to keep up gets a little different (magic vestments on shield and armor + Shield of Faith) than a straight buff everyone cleric. Your main goal is to avoid being in combat though. Sit back and use your elfishness to justify shooting with a bow instead of closing in for combat.

For spell selection try grabbing save of suck spells and work and provide some battle field control. Also use Conjure Icebeast for some fun meat shields that cause auto-damage with cold. And above all remember that your best resource is those walking meat shields you call party members! Try talking them into doing all the dangerous stuff while you stay back and play "Healer". Between summoned creatures and an eventually magic bow (get an energy crystal AND energy on the bow) you can contribute to a fight without letting the lesser beings scratch your armor.

Good suggestions. And the bit with the meat shields. Already planned on it. Better let them do all the work while I "Heal Bot" them in the back.

[GilesTheCleric]

Alright I'll look at that, and being how strong clerics are I'm fairly sure even if I build it poorly I'll still be effective. Also, not a true tank. Can't really describe it. Something that is more about avoiding the hits or gets reactions to the hits.

Also in terms to the type of elf. I just went with the standard as I got godly rolls. 3 18s, one 17, one 16 one 12. Far better then my last character who had one 18 and the rest where ten or below.

Good suggestions. And the bit with the meat shields. Already planned on it. Better let them do all the work while I "Heal Bot" them in the back.

You might want to look into building a tripper or karmic build, then. Trippers control combat by taking AoOs on foes to trip them, then AoO again when they try to get up. Karmic relies on things like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to hit foes when they try to hit you.

You sure you don't want to play a monk or something with those rolls? =P

"Heal botting" in the back really is an effective strategy. You can use Shield Other and a few other long-term buffs to reduce incoming damage, then just heal yourself instead of your party members, which is the most efficient method of healing in combat.

If you are planning on using John's good advice, consider picking Zen Archery or Charming the Arrow.

[kuhaica]

You might want to look into building a tripper or karmic build, then. Trippers control combat by taking AoOs on foes to trip them, then AoO again when they try to get up. Karmic relies on things like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to hit foes when they try to hit you.

You sure you don't want to play a monk or something with those rolls? =P

"Heal botting" in the back really is an effective strategy. You can use Shield Other and a few other long-term buffs to reduce incoming damage, then just heal yourself instead of your party members, which is the most efficient method of healing in combat.

If you are planning on using John's good advice, consider picking Zen Archery or Charming the Arrow.

I'll look into those two builds tommarow it's like 12 Am. Probably should be asleep in all honesty. Any who, the tripper I've heard of and seems interesting but at the same time impractical as it would mean I need to be a front line fighter. But the Karmic is a new one so I'll definitely look into.

In terms to playing a Monk. I've done that once before. I still have nightmares. The amount of things I had to keep track off and do to be efficient. It made me feel like a robot. All the checks... all of them... so yeah! Off the table xD

But the suggestion with being a range Cleric would work. It's simple and easy to pull off in all honesty as it requires little optimization and I can focus my feats and what not else where. While still being capable of switching to be a support character. I'm just the better Ranger in all honesty. As the ranger does get healing abillites later on. I'm just better. Because Cleric and Divine Powers.

[John Longarrow]

Guiles, very nice quick guide. I'm wondering though, are you planning to include the Planning domain under optimization? Free extend spell is nice for quick access to DMM Persistent. Cleric with 18 CHA, Planning domain, and persistent spell/DMM persistent can get one buff up all day at 1st and (with a cloak of Charisma) 2 by 6th.

Alternately is there a reason not to grab DMM Persist quickly?

[GilesTheCleric]

Guiles, very nice quick guide. I'm wondering though, are you planning to include the Planning domain under optimization? Free extend spell is nice for quick access to DMM Persistent. Cleric with 18 CHA, Planning domain, and persistent spell/DMM persistent can get one buff up all day at 1st and (with a cloak of Charisma) 2 by 6th.

Alternately is there a reason not to grab DMM Persist quickly?

Thank you. I haven't decided whether Planning should be included with optimisation or not -- the quick guide is meant to be composed of mostly stand-alone options, suitable for someone who doesn't really have a whole lot of knowledge. I have a separate "builds" section that will include (probably several) DMM:P approaches, though.

I do personally have a bit of a distaste for DMM:P, mostly because I don't think it's really very good compared to other optimisation options. But, I won't deny that it is an easy and fairly efficient way to build a powerful Cleric. Once I'm done with the full guide, I'll have more to base my opinion on, but so far I've found a good number of alternate routes to comparable or greater power+versatility, not including things that folks probably already know about.

[John Longarrow]

kuhaica

Are you planning 15 levels of just Cleric or are you willing to go into prestige classes / take dips?

[Rebel7284]

Evil cleric who can cast 8th level spells.. hmm.

So something like:

16 Str
16 Con
19 Dex
12 Int
21 Wis
18 Cha

There are a number of good builds.

I think the best would be the god of magic:
Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10
Magical Training feat to enter.
Find a deity with something like Magic + Planning or Magic + Rune domains.

Take DMM persist and Mother Cyst to persist Necrotic Empowerment.

Optionally also Standstill to control the battlefield better with a reach weapon.

[kuhaica]

kuhaica

Are you planning 15 levels of just Cleric or are you willing to go into prestige classes / take dips?

I'm not familiar enough with Clerics to know good Dips or Prestige classes to take. Like I said before, this is my first time playing one correctly. But if the dip helps me towards what I'm looking at. I see no issue.

[GilesTheCleric]

19 Dex
12 Int

What's your reasoning for that particular stat lineup?

[kuhaica]

So I looked over the two suggestions. And I think the Tripper would be interesting. However I'm completely dumb founded on how to work that into the Cleric. But the Karmic Strike seems very interesting. And the Prerequisites are simple to.

But in terms to taking a dip elsewhere. What would be a good Dip to take?

[GilesTheCleric]

So I looked over the two suggestions. And I think the Tripper would be interesting. However I'm completely dumb founded on how to work that into the Cleric. But the Karmic Strike seems very interesting. And the Prerequisites are simple to.

But in terms to taking a dip elsewhere. What would be a good Dip to take?

All you need to trip is Improved Trip, some size increases (from buffs), a tripping weapon, and a good str score. If you like, you can add on all the extra things (Thicket of Blades, Island of Blades, Stand Still, etc), but those aren't entirely necessary. Deities with War (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B61SLWnRHPuftgZnbikgJSEgkDFdgaii1_qqggh_bb0/edit?usp=sharing) and a trip weapon: Dol Arrah (halberd), Hextor (flails), Iborighu (scythe), Ishtar (flail), Kelanen (khopesh), Mockery (kama), Osirian Triad (khopesh), Pharonic Pantheon (khopesh, flail), Ramman (khopesh), Re-Horakhty (khopesh), Tem-Et-Nu (kama), Turaglas (flail), Wastri (guisarme), Zuoken (kama).

In terms of domains, several offer Enlarge Person: Gluttony, Strength, Transformation, and Alteration.

If you wanted to get really tricky and be a ranged tripper, you could do that too, with bolas. But that wouldn't work until mid levels when you can afford the magic items to enable that sort of build.

Dips aren't usually a good idea for casting classes, but if you're going all-in on melee, then one level of lion totem barbarian for pounce might be okay. PrCs are the ideal; I'll leave John to recommend what he had in mind, rather than stealing his thunder here.

[John Longarrow]

The one level dip I was considering is crusader, and that taken somewhere around 5th through 9th level. It doesn't really reduce casting much but gives a few useful maneuvers. Alternately grabbing a two level dip into Sword Sage in the same level range does reduce casting enough to be noticed at the table but ups your characters ability to get out of the area quickly.

I would not suggest going more than one (maybe two) levels into anything that doesn't up your casting though. Goal here is to help keep you out of the fight as much as possible.

For prestige classes, anything that helps you summon more creatures or adds unusual summons to your list should be a high priority. This isn't from a power gaming standpoint, more of a "I don't want that near me" RP standpoint. You want to have other things do your fighting for you as much as possible.

Two specialties to look into are battle field control and summoning. You don't want anything that involves you in melee since that actually puts you in harms way.

[kuhaica]

Thank you both for th3 suggestions. I'll look into what you've both said and get back to you.