Xethik
2016-12-29, 02:32 AM
Hey folks, hoping I can get some advice on what PrC to pursue after Sublime Chord. I've got a couple in mind from reading a quadrillion Bard threads, but I'm having trouble finding a PrC that really stands out as a way to make the character more interesting.
Initially, my Bard build was aimed for a Sublime Chord support/gish. But as we've played the game for the past two years, I find I don't full-attack/melee. My character has moved into a general caster secondary role instead of melee like I expected, casting buffs round 1 and then dispelling, countering, and tossing out the occasional BFC. So I'm considering diverting off the plan to go Abjurant Champion 5/Spellblade 1 for 16 BAB and instead focus on the caster side.
I'd probably use the term mid-optimization to describe the group. Mostly everyone has a core focus that might not be most optimal, but they optimize around that focus to a practical extent. Being a bit more of an optimizer, I went into the support role to make a build I was proud of without hogging the spotlight.
Right now, I'm character level 15 as a:
Silverbrow Human Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 2/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver 2-3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Abjurant Champion 1.
I think that Abj Champion level (and Combat Casting) can be retrained without too much issue, though. That leaves 6 levels to play with. If I keep the level, I keep Extended Abjuration and the BAB/HD with is fairly nice. Campaign sounds like it will hit at least 20th level. Epic has been mentioned as a possibility, but we might cap off at 20.
I've gone the Southern Magician/Divine Metamagic (Persist) route. I think this was a bit much for the overall optimization level of the group, but I've just used it to get some 10 min/level buffs (Nixie's Grace and Inner Beauty) going all day. Other feats were spent on getting into Lyric Thaumaturge, War Weaver, and Metamagic Song which I use mostly for Extend.
So. If I'm not caring about BAB as much, I think it is safe to say that taking one more into Sublime Chord is great. Song of Arcane Power is really stellar, even with fewer Bardic Music uses than average. Especially nice for dispelling, which comes up a lot and falls on me.
That leaves 5 levels to fill with. Full casting is obviously nice, but since I can still hit 9th level spells with one drop it isn't the end of the world. I'm really looking for things that are more interesting in play than power.
Classes I'm considering are:
Fatespinner - 4 levels with full casting. Prereq is just to some points in Profession (Gambler) which I can grab with Sublime Chord 2. Abilities are rerolls which are great and DC boosts which are meh due to my current spell list.
Incantatrix - I'm worried about optimization level and I throw this out there? Well, I can already Persist spells so it's not as crazy. But from a support standpoint, being able to Cooperative Metamagic the party Sorcerer's spells is always nice. Though Persisting his buffs might get a bit crazy. I'd need to grab Iron Will (no special locations available) but I get a feat so it washes out. Worth calling out, even if it is too high power.
Heartfire Fanner - Would require two feats but grants some really nice Bardic Musics. Since I don't have one of the abilities for multiple simultaneous Bardic Music, they might not see much use. Better suited for a non-Bard build and probably not worth the feat investment?
Divine Oracle - Feat tax for Oracle domain and Evasion. I have Ruin Delver's Fortune for occasional Evasion, but having it all day certainly doesn't hurt.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil - High feat tax that, even with retraining, might be too much. Throwing up emergency shields and walls has been a thing for this character lately but I think it's too late to really make this class work. If I did, it probably is too high power.
Archmage - Similar to Iot7V, high feat tax seeing how I don't have any Spell Focuses at the moment. But getting a handful of High Arcanas is quite valuable (counterspell and spell power stand out).
Dracolexi - One feat, one lost spell level. Some pretty cool abilities overall that tie into the character's draconic leanings, but seems like a pass overall.
Mage of the Arcane Order - Two kind of useless feats and some fluff that is contrary to my characters (not that big of a deal). In return, I get a feat back at level 2 and Spellpool, which is a fabulous versatility option for spells. But I won't be getting the best spells pre-epic, which is a bummer. Could be worth it.
Spellguard of Silverymoon - One feat (shares with Abj Champ), for some War Weaver synergy. Has some pretty terrible fluff requirements that might be waived. Giving Bite of the Werebear to a party beatstick or casting Shield on everyone in the party might be a bit too cheesy and just lead to escalation of numbers.
Escalation Mage - Fluff requirement that might be able to be waived. Free metamagic at personal risk. Pretty nice abilities overall, but limited in use and risky.
Paragnostic Apostle - No entry prereqs not met. Mind over Matter would add a bit of AC and Penetrating Insight is something, too. Not terribly exciting, but not 100% yawn-tier.
War Weaver 4+5 - I could finish out War Weaver. It's probably insane to some people that I haven't, but I don't have any spells that fit the weave above 3rd. Getting up to 5th, I could grab Greater Heroism but it has a limited use in combat with Inspire Courage in play.
Dragon Devotee - One dip for more Charisma and NA, but loses caster level. Don't think that's worth it.
Heartwarder - 3 feats for full spell casting and more Charisma. The three feats are probably too much to get into the build even with retraining, unfortunately. Could work out well otherwise.
Olin Gisir - 1 feat prereq but the class can give a bonus feat later. Has an Elven racial requirement, but that has been waived in this campaign before so shouldn't be a problem. Decent filler, but nothing too exciting.
Dragon Prophet - Assuming I get into epic, this is a 1 feat, 1 lost caster level PrC with a lot of cool features.
Urban Savant - 1 feat for some pretty useful abilities at the later levels. Good if planning around epic.
Virtuoso - 1 CL for Bardic Music progression and new music uses. Very nice if planning around epic, but will need two feats to sustain multiple bardic music most likely (with other goodies from Focused Performance).
Nightmare Spinner - 1 CL for more illusion spells per day and debuffs from illusions. Doesn't fit current character but interesting enough to note.
Uncanny Trickster - 1 CL to advance War Weaver up to higher levels. Probably a bit too high op or not very useful, depending on spell choices.
Silver Pyromancer - 1 lost CL for adding Paladin spells to my spell list (but not known) and a decent Turn Undead use ability. Later levels get fire blast abilities which are... probably useless. Daltim's Fiery Tentacles is the only spell I use that deals damage and empowering that damage is laughable.. Interesting for adding some spells to my War Weaver repertoire, but spells known are probably too limiting even if I pick up a late Ancestral Relic (Runestaff) or Psychic Reformation. Are there even that many good pickups for a Bard from Paladin?
----
Apologies for the wall of text, but are there any standout PrCs that I've missed? And what seems best out of these?
Initially, my Bard build was aimed for a Sublime Chord support/gish. But as we've played the game for the past two years, I find I don't full-attack/melee. My character has moved into a general caster secondary role instead of melee like I expected, casting buffs round 1 and then dispelling, countering, and tossing out the occasional BFC. So I'm considering diverting off the plan to go Abjurant Champion 5/Spellblade 1 for 16 BAB and instead focus on the caster side.
I'd probably use the term mid-optimization to describe the group. Mostly everyone has a core focus that might not be most optimal, but they optimize around that focus to a practical extent. Being a bit more of an optimizer, I went into the support role to make a build I was proud of without hogging the spotlight.
Right now, I'm character level 15 as a:
Silverbrow Human Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 2/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver 2-3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Abjurant Champion 1.
I think that Abj Champion level (and Combat Casting) can be retrained without too much issue, though. That leaves 6 levels to play with. If I keep the level, I keep Extended Abjuration and the BAB/HD with is fairly nice. Campaign sounds like it will hit at least 20th level. Epic has been mentioned as a possibility, but we might cap off at 20.
I've gone the Southern Magician/Divine Metamagic (Persist) route. I think this was a bit much for the overall optimization level of the group, but I've just used it to get some 10 min/level buffs (Nixie's Grace and Inner Beauty) going all day. Other feats were spent on getting into Lyric Thaumaturge, War Weaver, and Metamagic Song which I use mostly for Extend.
So. If I'm not caring about BAB as much, I think it is safe to say that taking one more into Sublime Chord is great. Song of Arcane Power is really stellar, even with fewer Bardic Music uses than average. Especially nice for dispelling, which comes up a lot and falls on me.
That leaves 5 levels to fill with. Full casting is obviously nice, but since I can still hit 9th level spells with one drop it isn't the end of the world. I'm really looking for things that are more interesting in play than power.
Classes I'm considering are:
Fatespinner - 4 levels with full casting. Prereq is just to some points in Profession (Gambler) which I can grab with Sublime Chord 2. Abilities are rerolls which are great and DC boosts which are meh due to my current spell list.
Incantatrix - I'm worried about optimization level and I throw this out there? Well, I can already Persist spells so it's not as crazy. But from a support standpoint, being able to Cooperative Metamagic the party Sorcerer's spells is always nice. Though Persisting his buffs might get a bit crazy. I'd need to grab Iron Will (no special locations available) but I get a feat so it washes out. Worth calling out, even if it is too high power.
Heartfire Fanner - Would require two feats but grants some really nice Bardic Musics. Since I don't have one of the abilities for multiple simultaneous Bardic Music, they might not see much use. Better suited for a non-Bard build and probably not worth the feat investment?
Divine Oracle - Feat tax for Oracle domain and Evasion. I have Ruin Delver's Fortune for occasional Evasion, but having it all day certainly doesn't hurt.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil - High feat tax that, even with retraining, might be too much. Throwing up emergency shields and walls has been a thing for this character lately but I think it's too late to really make this class work. If I did, it probably is too high power.
Archmage - Similar to Iot7V, high feat tax seeing how I don't have any Spell Focuses at the moment. But getting a handful of High Arcanas is quite valuable (counterspell and spell power stand out).
Dracolexi - One feat, one lost spell level. Some pretty cool abilities overall that tie into the character's draconic leanings, but seems like a pass overall.
Mage of the Arcane Order - Two kind of useless feats and some fluff that is contrary to my characters (not that big of a deal). In return, I get a feat back at level 2 and Spellpool, which is a fabulous versatility option for spells. But I won't be getting the best spells pre-epic, which is a bummer. Could be worth it.
Spellguard of Silverymoon - One feat (shares with Abj Champ), for some War Weaver synergy. Has some pretty terrible fluff requirements that might be waived. Giving Bite of the Werebear to a party beatstick or casting Shield on everyone in the party might be a bit too cheesy and just lead to escalation of numbers.
Escalation Mage - Fluff requirement that might be able to be waived. Free metamagic at personal risk. Pretty nice abilities overall, but limited in use and risky.
Paragnostic Apostle - No entry prereqs not met. Mind over Matter would add a bit of AC and Penetrating Insight is something, too. Not terribly exciting, but not 100% yawn-tier.
War Weaver 4+5 - I could finish out War Weaver. It's probably insane to some people that I haven't, but I don't have any spells that fit the weave above 3rd. Getting up to 5th, I could grab Greater Heroism but it has a limited use in combat with Inspire Courage in play.
Dragon Devotee - One dip for more Charisma and NA, but loses caster level. Don't think that's worth it.
Heartwarder - 3 feats for full spell casting and more Charisma. The three feats are probably too much to get into the build even with retraining, unfortunately. Could work out well otherwise.
Olin Gisir - 1 feat prereq but the class can give a bonus feat later. Has an Elven racial requirement, but that has been waived in this campaign before so shouldn't be a problem. Decent filler, but nothing too exciting.
Dragon Prophet - Assuming I get into epic, this is a 1 feat, 1 lost caster level PrC with a lot of cool features.
Urban Savant - 1 feat for some pretty useful abilities at the later levels. Good if planning around epic.
Virtuoso - 1 CL for Bardic Music progression and new music uses. Very nice if planning around epic, but will need two feats to sustain multiple bardic music most likely (with other goodies from Focused Performance).
Nightmare Spinner - 1 CL for more illusion spells per day and debuffs from illusions. Doesn't fit current character but interesting enough to note.
Uncanny Trickster - 1 CL to advance War Weaver up to higher levels. Probably a bit too high op or not very useful, depending on spell choices.
Silver Pyromancer - 1 lost CL for adding Paladin spells to my spell list (but not known) and a decent Turn Undead use ability. Later levels get fire blast abilities which are... probably useless. Daltim's Fiery Tentacles is the only spell I use that deals damage and empowering that damage is laughable.. Interesting for adding some spells to my War Weaver repertoire, but spells known are probably too limiting even if I pick up a late Ancestral Relic (Runestaff) or Psychic Reformation. Are there even that many good pickups for a Bard from Paladin?
----
Apologies for the wall of text, but are there any standout PrCs that I've missed? And what seems best out of these?