Creating a hero deity

[Keral]

Hi!
I was gonna post this in the simple raw thread, but then I realized it might evolve beyond a simple question/answer.

So, spurred by the recent deity threads, I decided to start designing a few hero deities to use later in my campaign.

The thing is: the book says most deities are outsiders with 20HD. Which is fine if I were creating it ex nihilo and if it had always been a god, but what about someone gaining a divine rank along the way?


In this specific case, I'm working with an Elf wizard. He is born, he learns, he travels and before his long lifespan is over he becomes a hero deity. So I'm assuming sometime after level 20.


But then things start getting confusing, at least for me.


Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.

Beyond character level 20th, deities’ attack and saving throw bonuses increase at new rates. Deities gain a +1 epic attack bonus at 21st level and every other level thereafter. No deity can have more than four attacks derived strictly from its base attack bonus. Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter.

Which is it? Do I follow the rules for epic PCs or do I apply the bonuses as written here? Or are the second ones in addition to the normal?

Then

Deities receive maximum hit points for each Hit Die.
Is this retroactive? Or only for each level attained after godhood?


I realize I could technically do it anyway I wanted, but I'm trying to follow the books as much as possible, so help me out please?

[GilesTheCleric]

Do your deities need stats, or just lore? If the latter, then you can save yourself some headache.

I can't say that I've dug into the epic rules enough to say how the progression works, but the HD are retroactive, yes.

[Remuko]

Hi!
I was gonna post this in the simple raw thread, but then I realized it might evolve beyond a simple question/answer.

So, spurred by the recent deity threads, I decided to start designing a few hero deities to use later in my campaign.

The thing is: the book says most deities are outsiders with 20HD. Which is fine if I were creating it ex nihilo and if it had always been a god, but what about someone gaining a divine rank along the way?


In this specific case, I'm working with an Elf wizard. He is born, he learns, he travels and before his long lifespan is over he becomes a hero deity. So I'm assuming sometime after level 20.


But then things start getting confusing, at least for me.




Which is it? Do I follow the rules for epic PCs or do I apply the bonuses as written here? Or are the second ones in addition to the normal?

Then

Is this retroactive? Or only for each level attained after godhood?


I realize I could technically do it anyway I wanted, but I'm trying to follow the books as much as possible, so help me out please?

Those are the same IIRC? The attack and save bonus listed in the epic rules is the same as whats listed to use for deities.

It says "each level". It means all of them even retroactively.

Also to make him "god-like" when he achieves divinity replace his base ability scores (the scores before magic items or magical effects, including racial and inherent bonuses etc) with the Deity Stat Array which IIRC is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24 assigned as you wish. Then reapply and bonuses from wishes or tomes or magic items or spells or race or level up after that.

[Ruethgar]

And also note that he does not have to be a 20 HD outsider, the Beggar God is famous for having an incarnation with much lower HD available to Simicarlum at level 7 when you get a Mirror Mephit Improved Familiar. You can then order it to give you its Divine Rank for early access if you are looking for an actual mechanical method of becoming a god beyond just story for the character(I know I like to avoid fiat as much as able).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hi!
I was gonna post this in the simple raw thread, but then I realized it might evolve beyond a simple question/answer.

These are simple enough questions but the inevitable follow ups probably warrant a thread.


So, spurred by the recent deity threads, I decided to start designing a few hero deities to use later in my campaign.

The thing is: the book says most deities are outsiders with 20HD. Which is fine if I were creating it ex nihilo and if it had always been a god, but what about someone gaining a divine rank along the way?


In this specific case, I'm working with an Elf wizard. He is born, he learns, he travels and before his long lifespan is over he becomes a hero deity. So I'm assuming sometime after level 20.


But then things start getting confusing, at least for me.




Which is it? Do I follow the rules for epic PCs or do I apply the bonuses as written here? Or are the second ones in addition to the normal?

The outsider HD are part of the nature of born gods. Your elven wizard-turned-god won't have them since he was born mortal. All of his HD will be class-derived.

The two quotes you have are, in order, a referal to the rule for all creatures of epic status, that is; those who have more than 20HD, and a reminder of what those rules are. The epic progression, described in your second quote, replaces the character's normal values for BAB and saving throws for every level in any class they might take from level 21, onward.




Then

Is this retroactive? Or only for each level attained after godhood?

It is. All of a god's HD, regardless of source, are reset to maximum.



I realize I could technically do it anyway I wanted, but I'm trying to follow the books as much as possible, so help me out please?

Just remember, "if it has stats, it can be killed." Bringing down a god is no mean feat but it becomes possible at all when they get actual numbers attached to them.

[Bad Wolf]

Vecna is a mortal who achieved godhood. In his case, he has 20 levels of wizard and 20 of Cleric.

Also the rules for deities and mortals/PC's are exactly the same for epic attack bonus and epic save bonus. So follow the rules for a normal PC and you should be fine.

Vecna also has maximized HP for all levels, so I'd say go for that with your guy.

Sources: My copy of the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods.

[Keral]

Do your deities need stats, or just lore? If the latter, then you can save yourself some headache.


I plan to need them having stats, yes.


Those are the same IIRC? The attack and save bonus listed in the epic rules is the same as whats listed to use for deities.

It says "each level". It means all of them even retroactively.

Also to make him "god-like" when he achieves divinity replace his base ability scores (the scores before magic items or magical effects, including racial and inherent bonuses etc) with the Deity Stat Array which IIRC is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24 assigned as you wish. Then reapply and bonuses from wishes or tomes or magic items or spells or race or level up after that.

Uh, I should have realized they were the same ^^''
How does replacing his ability scores affect things like skill points? Should I calculate them normally and then use the higher values for after he's reached divinity? I know usually an increase in intelligence doesn't retroactively change skil points, is it the same with a god?





The outsider HD are part of the nature of born gods. Your elven wizard-turned-god won't have them since he was born mortal. All of his HD will be class-derived.

It is. All of a god's HD, regardless of source, are reset to maximum.

Just remember, "if it has stats, it can be killed." Bringing down a god is no mean feat but it becomes possible at all when they get actual numbers attached to them.

Thanks! I could have saved the trouble or rolling them until level 20 :P

And yes, I know it will be possible to kill them. I'm actually planning on it. Well, not al of them. The BBEG is gonna be a hero deity himself and the idea is to get to kill him, eventually.

Plus, they're all supposed to have been mortals who acquired divine rank 0. So relatively weak. I probably wouldn't stat an intermediate or greater deity for the PCs to fight.

[Remuko]

I plan to need them having stats, yes.



Uh, I should have realized they were the same ^^''
How does replacing his ability scores affect things like skill points? Should I calculate them normally and then use the higher values for after he's reached divinity? I know usually an increase in intelligence doesn't retroactively change skil points, is it the same with a god?




Thanks! I could have saved the trouble or rolling them until level 20 :P

And yes, I know it will be possible to kill them. I'm actually planning on it. Well, not al of them. The BBEG is gonna be a hero deity himself and the idea is to get to kill him, eventually.

Plus, they're all supposed to have been mortals who acquired divine rank 0. So relatively weak. I probably wouldn't stat an intermediate or greater deity for the PCs to fight.

Id recalc skill points from scratch but you could stick to standard and only have it effect future levels.

[Keral]

I think I'm gonna calculate them all after all the int increases, then. All his classes so far are 2+int, so I'll just easily multiply it for each of his levels. :P

[Ashtagon]

This only matters if you intend for the PCs to fight that deitty If you intend for them to fight him, you intend for the PCs to kill the deity (or you intend to kill the PCs, which isn't a conventional campagn by any stretch...)

If they are only ever going to fight an avatar-equivalent, just eyeball something broadly equivalent to any of the existing avatar statblocks floating around.

If you need to stat the deity out as a religion, all you need is an alignment, holy weapon, divine domains, and selection of summon options. Everything else is fluff.

[Keral]

This only matters if you intend for the PCs to fight that deitty If you intend for them to fight him, you intend for the PCs to kill the deity (or you intend to kill the PCs, which isn't a conventional campagn by any stretch...)

If they are only ever going to fight an avatar-equivalent, just eyeball something broadly equivalent to any of the existing avatar statblocks floating around.

If you need to stat the deity out as a religion, all you need is an alignment, holy weapon, divine domains, and selection of summon options. Everything else is fluff.

The BBEG is gonna be an hero deity, tho not this one. I'm preparing for various scenarios, depending on the PC's choices.

So far I have:


confront him straight on (very bad idea, unless this happens ten years from now)

work behind the scenes to undermine his political power (which is a great chunk of what makes him powerful)
ally themselves with some of the other hero deities in the campaign
take the side of the BBEG
???


Also, in this case, being only of divine rank 0, I don't plan on having them have worshippers. They're just powerful beings who managed to harness some divine power.