D&D 3.5 Swashbuckler Build Advice

[BrotherSilence]

I'm wanting to create a swashbuckler because I really like the idea of an agile fighter class, however i have noticed they seem less powerful than other fighter classes like the fighter/paladin/etc... but i still want to make one that is a viable character. So any feat/multi class advice you can give will be very appreciated. My current idea was to be a human and pick up exotic weapon proficiency ( elven thin blade) and weapon focus for it as well since i get weapon finesse free. I would like to use a 1 handed weapon, without a shield preferably but open to a shield. I have access to the core books as well as Complete Warrior/Arcane/Divine/Adventurer. we are using a 32 point buy system, but we cant buy higher than 16, so for an 18 we have to be a race that boosts that stat. subraces from the monster manuals are allowed as long as they dont adjust level, except a couple +1 might be allowed depending if we can slightly nerf them to make it fair, like Aaisimar are allowed but lose their resistances. Thank you for any help you can give.

[rrwoods]

You don't really want more than 3 swashbuckler levels; INT to damage is the juiciest thing the class gets. If it's on the table, Tome of Battle is your friend here. Probably Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warblade or Swordsage X. The Fighter level gets you a bonus feat and another half point of initiator level for your martial adept class.

Advantages of Warblade: Bigger hit die, full BAB, some mild INT synergy (including INT to damage again), harder to screw up.

Advantages of Swordsage: Access to Shadow Hand and therefore Shadow Blade (DEX synergy to go with your free Finesse), more versatility.

EDIT: Without Tome, I'd recommend checking out Daring Outlaw (feat from Complete Scoundrel), with either Rogue or the Sneak Attack variant Fighter (from Unearthed Arcana and the SRD).

[John Longarrow]

What your describing is the Duelist prestige class from DMG. Mechanically its not that great but it definitely meets the flavor your looking for.

[Seerow]

Check out daring outlaw. Rogue 3/swashbuckler 17 is fairly solid.

[BrotherSilence]

i cant use the stuff from tome of battle sadly, and i'm confused when the first post, the swashbuckler does have full BAB and a d10 like any other fighter ( except barbarian of course), daring outlaw is also off the table because its from complete scoundrel which we dont have either.if only taking 3 levels of swashbuckler where should i go from there, should i still multiclass rogue, or go into fighter. or one of those and go into a prestige class, would duelist be a good prestige class to go into even if i wear light armor? or are there other prestige classes in those books i listed that i should really look into?

[DrMotives]

I've wondered about a swashbuckler entry to prestige paladin, had a paladin of freedom specifically I was debating that build for. The mounted combat feels like a feat tax for a dex build character, although ride is still dex based. Fluffwise, it feels right for a musketeer sort of warrior. A fencer with lots of ideals, moral code and a system of honor.

[BrotherSilence]

ooh would a swashbuckler paladin be viable? that sounds pretty fun

[Troacctid]

The ideal number of Swashbuckler levels is zero because it is one of the worst classes in the game and is just generally a trap. It is just baaarely better than an NPC Warrior, and only because of its extra skill points.

However, if you are taking Swashbuckler levels at all, you're doing it in conjunction with Daring Outlaw in order to at least get full sneak attack out of it. This build is less powerful than a single-class Rogue, but it's pretty much the best you can do.


ooh would a swashbuckler paladin be viable? that sounds pretty fun
Nope, the two classes have no synergy, and in fact actively work against each other in several respects.

[Aetis]

Well, the biggest problem of Dex-based melee is the lack of damage. You are looking at 1d6 + Int per hit for your damage as a swashbuckler, instead of 2d6 + (Str +2) x1.5 + BAB x3 per hit from a raging pouncing barbarian with leap attack feat. That's probably around 8 damage per hit vs something like 33 damage per hit around lv 9, and it only gets worse as your BAB gets higher.

Duelist PrC is mostly a trap, as just wearing the full plate would have gotten you more AC. They buffed it in pathfinder if you're interested in backporting it.

Getting Sneak Attack on the build is one way to solve this problem. I see that SA variant fighter and Daring Outlaw have both been already suggested.

If you are looking for an alternative solution, you may be able to duplicate the rage pounce barbarian build by dipping barbarian and taking Power Attack/Leap Attack, but stick it on a Dex build by taking Weapon Finesse and using a Elven Thinblade for the weapon finessed two-handed power attack pounces.

I also suggest going into Champion of the Corellon Larethian (PrC from races of the wild) and it will give you elegant strike, which lets you add Dex mod to your damage.

Another suggestion I have is to go for Iaijutsu focus build, which is a skill from Oriental Adventures and may not be legal at your table.

[BrotherSilence]

i was looking at the books and should be able to pull off 1d8+int+str to damage. The Elven Thin-blade is 1d8 and counts as a finesse weapon and the int to damage is in addition to any str bonus to damage you might have, so would going with that weapon allow me for some pretty decent damage? iknow its getting pretty MAD but with a 32 point buy i should be able to afford at least a decent str and int if i dump wisdom and cha (not looking to be party face another character wants to do that).

[BrotherSilence]

and haha the pouncing barbarian thing sounds like it would be pretty fun, i'll definately look into that, elgently leap into their face and destroy them.

[rrwoods]

i cant use the stuff from tome of battle sadly, and i'm confused when the first post, the swashbuckler does have full BAB and a d10 like any other fighter ( except barbarian of course), daring outlaw is also off the table because its from complete scoundrel which we dont have either.if only taking 3 levels of swashbuckler where should i go from there, should i still multiclass rogue, or go into fighter. or one of those and go into a prestige class, would duelist be a good prestige class to go into even if i wear light armor? or are there other prestige classes in those books i listed that i should really look into?
My main point was that past the third level of Swashbuckler you aren't really getting much. The full BAB comment about Warblade was just in contrast with the Swordsage. But if ToB isn't on the table then it doesn't matter much.

If both ToB and Scoundrel are out, your next go-to is probably Dervish (Complete Warrior I think). Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 into Dervish. Squeezing in all the prerequisite feats will be tough, but two bonus feats from Fighter helps (two from levels plus two from Fighter makes four!). Make sure you grab the requisite Perform: dance ranks.

Once you're into Dervish, you'll be able to full attack while moving some number of times per day (the number depending on how far into Dervish you are). Your primary concern mechanically will be keeping up your damage per attack. Power Attack as your level 6 feat will do wonders. I'm not intimately familiar with the thinblade, but as I understand it you can both PA and Finesse it.

EDIT: Pounce barbarian is also totally doable; I assumed it wasn't available as that ACF is in Complete Champion.

Another thought regarding Dervish: If you're willing to ditch the thinblade, you can spend the human bonus feat on TWF and go the whirling dervish route (pick up some Gloves of the Balanced Hand later on to get ITWF for gp instead of a feat slot). The trouble there is finding sources of bonus damage.

[Troacctid]

No, you would not be dealing level-appropriate damage with that setup. You maybe have 14 Str, 16 Int, which gives you 1d8+5 damage (average 9.5), after spending a feat to improve it. In comparison, an NPC Warrior with 16 Str is dealing 2d6+4 damage (average 11) with her greatsword and no feat investment. In fact, you would also be dealing more damage if you completely ignored Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike and used a greatsword instead. You are proficient with all martial weapons, after all.

[BrotherSilence]

wow yeah dervish looks like a very solid option and definitely fits with the idea of an agile fighter. i couldnt use the elvin thin blade for it but i could use scimitars or later if i invested in the feat the dwarven shield axes and be like whirling wheels which would be super flavorful

[John Longarrow]

Folks,

Please remember, the books he's limited to are

"I have access to the core books as well as Complete Warrior/Arcane/Divine/Adventurer."

Bringing up stuff not from here won't help him.

OP,
What is the rest of the party? If we know what level of optimization your party runs, its composition, and your DM's style of game we can give some better advice.

[BrotherSilence]

oh we are doing a small party of 3, one being a wizard and the other undecided. they aren't doing any sort of optimization, neither have ever even done a prestige class or multi-class before. so i'm not too worried about being able to dish out a ton or be super powerful just not super weak. the monsters and enemies we will fight will generally play moderately intelligent more than just the he swings as you sort of thing, spell casters wont be very rare once we get up to that level either. we can expect things like being grappled or bull-rushed, charged defensive fighting etc...

[rrwoods]

Yeah if the other party members aren't even likely to prestige or multiclass, keeping up with damage won't be an issue really. Dervish will be a sweet way to do what little keeping up needs to be done, with style.

[BrotherSilence]

yeah a dervish sounds super fun, and i love the flavor i could get out of that

[John Longarrow]

Alternate way to take your character would be mixing in Rogue for the sneaky stuff and dealing with traps. With small groups having more than one area you are good in really helps.

[Eladrinblade]

Gonna post a build I made just the other day for fun. The stat-block is sloppy and incomplete, and the gear was thought of about as fast as I wrote it down, but the build itself is about as good at being a dex-fighter as you can get, pre-ToB.


Drow Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Hit & Run Fighter 2/Duelist 10
drow: darkvision 120ft, SR 30, +2 will vs magic, spell-like abilities, light blindness
drow rogue: poison use, sneak attack +2d6, evasion, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
swashbuckler: +1 reflex, int to damage
H&R Ftr: +2 init, dex to damage flat-footed
Duelist: +4 init, +4 mobility, +2 reflex, precise +2d6, acrobatic charge, elaborate parry, deflect arrows
Str 10, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 22, Wis 8, Cha 16
Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, TWF, TWD, Twin Sword Style, Combat Expertise, Agile Athlete
Balance 32, Bluff 25, Climb 22, Escape Artist 30, Hide 30, Intimidate 17, Jump 32, Move Silently 30, Sense Motive 21, Tumble 32, Use Magic Device 22, Diplomacy 8
+5 Warning Wounding Cold Iron Rapier (wand chamber [wraithstrike], least crystal of return), +5 Defending Eager Silvered Shortsword (wand chamber [shield]), Bracers of Armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Cloak of Resistance +5, Vest of Escape, Clothes (Greater Silent Moves, Greater Shadow), Gloves of Dex +6, Headband of Int +6, Luckstone, Wand of Haste, Wand of Keen Edges, Wand of Greater Invisibility, Climber's Kit

edit: shoot, I forgot daring outlaw. You can work that in for an extra 2d6 sneak attack.

[John Longarrow]

From the OP

"subraces from the monster manuals are allowed as long as they dont adjust level"

That would take Drow off the table.

[BrotherSilence]

but hey a swashbuckler rogue then going into duelist is a solid option still. it looks i have two main option swashbuckler fighter into dervish or swashbuckler rogue into duelist, both seem like they'd be a very fun character to play.

[Troacctid]

The Swashbuckler Rogue doesn't go into Duelist, it just goes straight Swashbuckler in order to get full sneak attack.

[BrotherSilence]

but i dont have scoundrel so i cant get that feat that lets rogue and swashbuckler stack.

[Eladrinblade]

Well, adapting my build to something you can use:

Halfling Rogue 7/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 10, taking some rogue levels very late to try and max out search/disable device and UMD. Halfling with reduce person will have such a stupid high AC on this build it won't even be funny. You'll be the tiniest errol flynn ever, but nobody will touch you, which is good, because they'd whoop your butt in a grapple. Make sure you have escape artist early on and freedom of movement later. I'd pick up ITWF and GTWF to replace Twin Sword Style and Agile Athlete. Nevermind, no fighter means no fighter bonus feats.

[Eisfalken]

but i dont have scoundrel so i cant get that feat that lets rogue and swashbuckler stack.

Then you're screwed, my friend. Without Daring Outlaw, swashbuckler is one of the more useless forms of fighter there is, unless you think trading armor/shields and all those feats are worth extra skill points. You can do a better "swashbuckler" by taking ranger with various humanoid favored enemies and two-weapon style, or go rogue with more melee-based feats to land SA more often.

FYI, Complete Scoundrel PDF is just $15 on Drive Thru. Shouldn't be too hard to scrape up some cash for it...

[BrotherSilence]

the swashbuckler/rogue/duelist and swashbuckler/fighter/dervish seem like they are good enough for me lol, they have tons of flavor and i'm not worried about being super strong, they seem good enough to where i'm not super weak so they are fine by me. they seem really funny too which is cool. which one i go with will all depend on what our third player decides, if he goes like a rogue, ninja or something like that i'll go the dervish route, if he goes divine and/or another fighter person i'll go the duelist route either way i'm looking forward to this. Actually i should ask, are there any other prestige classes that would be decent besides those two? also would swashbuckler/fighter/duelist be decent if i decide to stick with the exotic rapier?

[Troacctid]

Well, you might be able to do some things, but fighting effectively with light weapons in melee isn't going to be one of them. Swashbuckler without Daring Outlaw is a really bad class for that.

[PaucaTerrorem]

If you're that limited on sources have you thought about the Horizon Tripper? I don't know the build myself but I think you could make it an agile fighter.

[rrwoods]

Well, you might be able to do some things, but fighting effectively with light weapons in melee isn't going to be one of them. Swashbuckler without Daring Outlaw is a really bad class for that.
At a table as low op as he's describing? I dunno. Unless the wizard accidentally wins combats it seems like dancing and power attacking is fine, as long as the DM isn't designing combats with higher op in mind.

[BrotherSilence]

i didn't see the horizon tripper did i miss it? also i just had an idea would Swashbuckler3/fighter2/dervish10/tempest/5 be a decent idea. it sounds like it would be crazy duel wielding damage and super interesting

[rrwoods]

i didn't see the horizon tripper did i miss it? also i just had an idea would Swashbuckler3/fighter2/dervish10/tempest/5 be a decent idea. it sounds like it would be crazy duel wielding damage and super interesting
It wouldn't be crazy damage, but it would be crazy fun. The Dervish handbook mentions that exact stub as the gold standard for whirling dervishes. Personally I find TWF to be hard to manage, but again at a low op table it should be fine. TWF + One Thousand Cuts is hilarious too. Just be aware that if you go that route you will roll over to DR.

[John Longarrow]

Another fun and thematic entrance to Dervish is Fighter-2 / Bard-4. Friend of mine ran a Dervish based off of Fighter-2 / Monk-4 in a "Style counts for everything" type game. His singing, dancing dwarven dervish was dual wielding Kukri for it. Not sure on the exact feats involved, but it was a high dex Dwarven build, something you don't see to much of.

[BrotherSilence]

So we are doing a 32 point buy system, so now my real question is should i be a human or an elf? a human would mean i have 14 con but only 16 dex while an elf would net me 18dex but only 12 con. i plan to have 14 in both str and int since both add damage and before lvl 3 i still need str. we have the wizard and the other is going to be either a fighter or a paladin. can i afford to have only 12 con? basically i'm looking at 16/14/14/14/10/10 or 18/14/14/12/10/10

[Eladrinblade]

12 con on a swashbuckler is enough. You're still d10, and you'll have a good AC (+4 dex, +4 chain shirt, +1 buckler or +2 darkwood heavy shield + dodge or combat expertise or fighting defensively).

[PaucaTerrorem]

i didn't see the horizon tripper did i miss it? also i just had an idea would Swashbuckler3/fighter2/dervish10/tempest/5 be a decent idea. it sounds like it would be crazy duel wielding damage and super interesting

Playgrounders tell me if I'm wrong but I believe it's considered one of if not the strongest melee builds if using core only. Do a google search for it. Should be some builds out there.