[Brainstorming] Tome of Battle + Spellthief

[Nifft]

How should one make the Spelltheif into an Initiator?

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Idea 1: "Spellthief" abilities become Strikes in some new school, which becomes available to the usual Martial Initiator classes.

Pro: Simple, easily limited by action economy.
Con: Gotta write a new school. Also, what to do about the Spelltheif's few spells known?

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Idea 2: "Spellthief" abilities replace some Swordsage class abilities (Quick to Act & Discipline Focus); including the very limited Spellthief casting.

Pro: Simple.
Con: Need to hammer out specifics. Not sure if balanced.

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Idea 3: "Spellthief" abilities replace some Swordsage class abilities (Quick to Act & Discipline Focus), but stealing a spell or effect also expends a maneuver, and casting a Spellthief spell also refreshes one or more expended maneuvers.

Pro: Dynamic & interwoven resource management.
Con: Need to hammer out specifics. Not sure if balanced.

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Other ideas, or thoughts?

Thanks, --N

[Jack_McSnatch]

I would do something like the master spellthief and psithief feats. One makes your Spellthief and initiator levels stack for steal spell and initiator level, and another allows you to steal somebody else's maneuvers.

[Mr Adventurer]

I would write a new Discipline around the Spellthief abilities, and also expand them with additional options and powers for stances etc.

I wouldn't worry about the spellcasting at all - the abilities in the Discipline would replace it.

Then I would make it available to Warblades as well so you can make Occult Slayers ;).

[Mr Adventurer]

Strikes to variously steal.spells of levels up to that of the strike, and also apply a debuff or bonus damage (instead of the usual Sneak Attack).

A stance to store stolen spells and recast them.

Actually tempted to make it an initator feat.

Spellthief
You know how to use Blade Magic to interfere with arcane and divine magic.
Prerequisites: One Diamond Mind stance. One Shadow Hand or Iron Heart strike.
[B]Benefit:[b] You can enter the following stance as a swift action. This must replace a Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, or Iron Heart stance that you are already in:
Spellthief
You gain a bonus on saving throws versus spells and spell-like abilities equal to half your Initiator level, rounded down. When you roll a 20 on a saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability, or when you damage a spellcaster with the Steal Spell strike (below), you can use the spell energy to either ready one Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, or Iron Heart maneuver you have expended, or you can cast the spell yourself as a standard action on your following turn. You use all the casting parameters of the original caster.

You can expend a Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, or Iron Heart strike to perform the following strike:

Steal Spell
As a standard action, make a melee attack against a target within your melee reach. If the target is a spellcaster or has spell-like abilities, you gain a +4 bonus to hit and deal extra damage equal to your Initiator level. In addition, such a target loses a spell slot (or use of a spell-like ability) of a level up to the level of the maneuver you expended to use this strike. The target can't use this spell until 1 minute has passed (and their slot counts as expended). If a spell-like ability, they lose a daily use of the ability (if appropriate) and cannot use it for 1 minute.

[Sian]

Other ideas, or thoughts?

Not to be a killjoy, but the first thing that comes to mind is that Homebrew forum is better suited for this

[Rebel7284]

Depending on the power level of the game, just simply gestalting the two can be fine. Spellthief is pretty low powered and adding a couple of low level spells, steal spell, and a few points of sneak attack to Swordsage leaves it exactly in the same tier it was before.

[Nifft]

Depending on the power level of the game, just simply gestalting the two can be fine. Spellthief is pretty low powered and adding a couple of low level spells, steal spell, and a few points of sneak attack to Swordsage leaves it exactly in the same tier it was before.

That's a good point. I'd want to add some spell-focused schools, and allow a Swordsage to take those in place of the default schools, but overall it wouldn't be that big a deviation.

Every Swordsage I've seen in actual play has taken Adaptive Style, so adding another single-maneuver refresh ability wouldn't break the class.

Thanks!