[THEORETICAL] Zhentarim Skymage gish

[danielxcutter]

Thought exercise: not going to be used in play anytime soon.

So... While searching the Internet for gish options, I came upon the Zhentarim Skymage, and it seems like a fun option for a mounted gish.

So, a few questions.

1. Sorcerer is better if you want a better mount, right? I mean yeah, Wizards get 10 extra spells, which is awesome, but Sorcerers get Charisma synergy, and to be honest I always thought that Sorcerers were more likely to be gishs(gishes?) than Wizards due to the way they get their powers.

Anyways, Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/ZSM 5/Eldritch Knight 10(not in that order, of course) is doable right?

2. What mount should I choose? The fact that the mount itself doesn't scale is rather annoying. Note: Don't suggest something like a succubus or a solar or something.

3. Any other general advice?

[Vaz]

Your Charisma as a Sorcerer by 20th level is maybe 34 (18 base, +5 levels, +5 book, +6 item).

You have a mount with 18 HD (1+Class level+Cha Mod).

This means you can get "teenage" dragons.

[Vampire1]

14HD, Gray Linnorm Dragon. Monster Manual II.

Acess to miracle(Versatile) and cleric spells.


If you want be King. Use your Dragon Mount to Refills your Theurgy Rings(Complete Arcane). Now you can cast cleric spells as Sorcerer.

[Troacctid]

Best race is honestly probably Warforged/Warforged Scout, even with the Charisma penalty, because Wand Bonding is just that good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You need to be able to cast summon monster III (or higher) and suggestion to get into ZSM, so you can't use typical early entry with Heightened cantrips and whatnot. A bard or sorcerer takes seven levels to get that number of third-level spells known, a wizard takes only five. That's the advantage of wizard entry. However, I feel that ZSM is 'best' used on a bard gish, using Inspire Courage to buff both mount and rider (pick one of the Large dragons, get five attacks per round + your own + all your other party members), possibly with some White Raven goodness in there. More powerful is the wizard persistomancer entry, but that doesn't have the whole 'flying magocratic super-agent' feel, because the mount is really just an accessory, at that point.

[WhamBamSam]

Sha'irs are also Cha-based casters and are divine casters, so you can advance their casting with divine PrCs, provided you can get in. In particular, Ordained Champ is a great fit for a mounted Gish, as you can only attack once as a standard (even if charging, the mounted rules are weird), so you have a move action free to channel spells with.

Even if you don't want to muck around with divine PrCs, Sha'ir might still be worth it as a Cha-based caster that can enter Skymage with 5 levels of casting (Sorcerer takes 6).

You can also just get into Skymage as a Cleric (might need to make appropriate domain choices) as it doesn't appear to require or exclusively advance arcane casting, though you might prefer the Sor/Wiz spell list.

It'll cost a few caster levels, but you might be able to continue progressing Skymage with Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster. Sha'ir 5/Skymage 5/Legacy Champ 10 would get an extra 8 mount HD over the Sorc build, though it only ends up with 12 BAB.

[danielxcutter]

Your Charisma as a Sorcerer by 20th level is maybe 34 (18 base, +5 levels, +5 book, +6 item).

You have a mount with 18 HD (1+Class level+Cha Mod).

This means you can get "teenage" dragons.

Can you reliably get stat-boosting tomes at high levels if the DM isn't the paragon of frugality? Also, I'm wary of relying on item bonuses to get stronger mounts, as you lose your mount as soon as it's not working or you aren't wearing it. I suppose that either the "thrown in prison without your items" or "get hit by a Disjunction as soon as combat starts and lose your Cloak of Charisma" situations are fairly rare unless your DM's just plain screwing with you, but an AMF really hoses you even if you use the "shrunken tinfoil cone hat" trick since you lose your mount as soon as your Charisma goes under the required minimum. Although I suppose the last one counts as DM jerkassery as well... This is probably paranoia, but still.


Best race is honestly probably Warforged/Warforged Scout, even with the Charisma penalty, because Wand Bonding is just that good.

Let's see, Wand Bonding, Wand Bonding... isn't that the feat that allows you to substitute wand charges for spell slots or prepared spells of the same level? Could you elaborate on the awesomeness of this? I suppose that effectively getting two additional spells to your list is pretty good, but I'm pretty sure I'm missing something.


You need to be able to cast summon monster III (or higher) and suggestion to get into ZSM, so you can't use typical early entry with Heightened cantrips and whatnot. A bard or sorcerer takes seven levels to get that number of third-level spells known, a wizard takes only five. That's the advantage of wizard entry. However, I feel that ZSM is 'best' used on a bard gish, using Inspire Courage to buff both mount and rider (pick one of the Large dragons, get five attacks per round + your own + all your other party members), possibly with some White Raven goodness in there. More powerful is the wizard persistomancer entry, but that doesn't have the whole 'flying magocratic super-agent' feel, because the mount is really just an accessory, at that point.

Yeah, I was thinking of taking a few EK levels (Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 4) before grabbing ZSM.


Sha'irs are also Cha-based casters and are divine casters, so you can advance their casting with divine PrCs, provided you can get in. In particular, Ordained Champ is a great fit for a mounted Gish, as you can only attack once as a standard (even if charging, the mounted rules are weird), so you have a move action free to channel spells with.

Even if you don't want to muck around with divine PrCs, Sha'ir might still be worth it as a Cha-based caster that can enter Skymage with 5 levels of casting (Sorcerer takes 6).

You can also just get into Skymage as a Cleric (might need to make appropriate domain choices) as it doesn't appear to require or exclusively advance arcane casting, though you might prefer the Sor/Wiz spell list.

It'll cost a few caster levels, but you might be able to continue progressing Skymage with Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster. Sha'ir 5/Skymage 5/Legacy Champ 10 would get an extra 8 mount HD over the Sorc build, though it only ends up with 12 BAB.

Errrrr... nah, doesn't have the flavor I was thinking of. Isn't ZSM an arcane PrC?

[Troacctid]

Let's see, Wand Bonding, Wand Bonding... isn't that the feat that allows you to substitute wand charges for spell slots or prepared spells of the same level? Could you elaborate on the awesomeness of this? I suppose that effectively getting two additional spells to your list is pretty good, but I'm pretty sure I'm missing something.
It's the other way around: you can spend spell slots instead of wand charges. This means every wand is now effectively an extra spell known. Which means your Sorcerer now has more known spells than a Wizard (since partially charged wands are cheaper than spellbook pages) and can cast them all spontaneously. Get yourself some UMD and you can also take your known spells off of any class's spell list. So yeah, kinda nuts.

[danielxcutter]

It's the other way around: you can spend spell slots instead of wand charges. This means every wand is now effectively an extra spell known. Which means your Sorcerer now has more known spells than a Wizard (since partially charged wands are cheaper than spellbook pages) and can cast them all spontaneously. Get yourself some UMD and you can also take your known spells off of any class's spell list. So yeah, kinda nuts.

UMD doesn't come easy on this character, but having spontaneous access to every spell published for the Wizard/Sorcerer list... Whoa. I think there was a Warforged component called Wand Sheath, does that work well with Wand Bonding?

[WhamBamSam]

Errrrr... nah, doesn't have the flavor I was thinking of. Isn't ZSM an arcane PrC?Sha'irs are mostly arcane, but has just enough divine magic to count as a divine caster for shenanigans. And no. There's no mention of arcane casting in either the prereqs or the casting advancement, so a caster of any stripe can take it so long as they can meet the prerequisites. With some chicanery, you could probably get just about any class in.

[danielxcutter]

Sha'irs are mostly arcane, but has just enough divine magic to count as a divine caster for shenanigans. And no. There's no mention of arcane casting in either the prereqs or the casting advancement, so a caster of any stripe can take it so long as they can meet the prerequisites. With some chicanery, you could probably get just about any class in.

Oh. Still don't think it's what I'm looking for, but I really should look into the class anyway.

Btw, does "shenanigans" include Mystic Theurge abuse? I think I saw something similar mentioned on Tvtropes.

[Troacctid]

Well, you can qualify for both halves of Mystic Theurge and then use the other half to advance Warlock or Shadowcaster, which have a hard time achieving early entry otherwise. Sha'ir 2/Shadowcaster 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Noctumancer 10 is a lot more efficient than the standard Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10; ditto for Sha'ir 2/Warlock 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Eldritch Theurge 10 over the standard Wizard 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 10. So that's kind of a shenanigan.

[danielxcutter]

Well, you can qualify for both halves of Mystic Theurge and then use the other half to advance Warlock or Shadowcaster, which have a hard time achieving early entry otherwise. Sha'ir 2/Shadowcaster 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Noctumancer 10 is a lot more efficient than the standard Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10; ditto for Sha'ir 2/Warlock 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Eldritch Theurge 10 over the standard Wizard 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 10. So that's kind of a shenanigan.

That is so RAW-abusing cheesy I'm developing a rash. If that's a quasi-shenanigan, I'd hate to meet one of the proper ones in a dark alley at night. Or at all. Or to be in the same multiverse as them.

[Bad Wolf]

Thought exercise: not going to be used in play anytime soon.

So... While searching the Internet for gish options, I came upon the Zhentarim Skymage, and it seems like a fun option for a mounted gish.

So, a few questions.

1. Sorcerer is better if you want a better mount, right? I mean yeah, Wizards get 10 extra spells, which is awesome, but Sorcerers get Charisma synergy, and to be honest I always thought that Sorcerers were more likely to be gishs(gishes?) than Wizards due to the way they get their powers.

Anyways, Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/ZSM 5/Eldritch Knight 10(not in that order, of course) is doable right?

2. What mount should I choose? The fact that the mount itself doesn't scale is rather annoying. Note: Don't suggest something like a succubus or a solar or something.

3. Any other general advice?

1: For the mount, yes. And the fluff plays better with a Sorcerer than a wizard.

2: Go with a dragon of your preferred colour. Nothing beats a mount that can kick ass with claws and spells.

3: I'd advise going with Abjurant Champion instead of Eldritch Knight. No caster levels are lost, and you get some nice bonuses, like full BAB and free quicken to lower level Abjuration spells.

I shivered a bit when I saw the words 'Sorcerer' and 'Zhentarim Skymage' in the same little bit.

[WhamBamSam]

Oh. Still don't think it's what I'm looking for, but I really should look into the class anyway.

Btw, does "shenanigans" include Mystic Theurge abuse? I think I saw something similar mentioned on Tvtropes.What you probably saw was someone arguing incorrectly that Mystic Theurge can double advance Sha'irs. Fortunately, the wording of casting advancement doesn't quite work that way.

Even sticking with Sorcerer, you might benefit from finding a use for move actions from the saddle or otherwise taking advantage of standard action attacks, since you won't be able to full attack. Some spells can be redirected with move actions, Fearsome Armor would let you use it to demoralize, and so on.

I suppose with a level of Monk you could also use your full-round action to Decisive Strike (so long as you're using something that counts as a monk weapon, which is a little tricky, but not impossible, to wrangle for a lance).

Jade Phoenix Mage might be workable as initiators don't really mind not full attacking. Sorcerer 5/Initiator 1/JPM 2/ZSM 5/JPM +7 gets 8th level maneuvers, though it does fall short of 9th level spells unless you're a kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of passage or switch your casting class to Wizard or Sha'ir. Sorc 5/Initiator 1/JPM 2/ZSM 5/Abjurant Champ 4/JPM +3 scrapes 18 levels of casting and still hits 7th level maneuvers.


3: I'd advise going with Abjurant Champion instead of Eldritch Knight. No caster levels are lost, and you get some nice bonuses, like full BAB and free quicken to lower level Abjuration. Seconded, especially as you need Combat Casting anyway.

[Rebel7284]

How about Dragonwraught Kobold Sorcerer so that you can have CHA based casting but the progression of a Wizard?

Something like
Sorcerer 6/Zhentarim Skymage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Incanatrix 4

Feats:
Otyugh Hole magical location: Iron Will
1. Dragonwraught
3. Combat Casting
6. Mounted Combat
9. Draconic Reservoir
12. Extend Spell
15. Persistent Spell
18. Craft Contingent Spell

Battle Bridle: Ride By Attack.
Heroics -> Spirited Charge to buff (edit: this may or may not be necessary, you can pick up Spirited Charge with Flying Feat... but Flyby Attack is probably better)

Arcane Disciple[War] -> Persisting Divine Power for full BAB is always nice, but probably requires Flaws to pull off.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, you can qualify for both halves of Mystic Theurge and then use the other half to advance Warlock or Shadowcaster, which have a hard time achieving early entry otherwise. Sha'ir 2/Shadowcaster 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Noctumancer 10 is a lot more efficient than the standard Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10; ditto for Sha'ir 2/Warlock 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Eldritch Theurge 10 over the standard Wizard 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 10. So that's kind of a shenanigan.
It's also ideal for things like Dweomerkeeper or Geomancer that require both arcane and divine casting but only advance one.