A few questions on Outsiders

[Aeturo]

I've been interested in writing a campaign with more outsiders than I typically use so I've got questions and I'm not really getting it from the books.
Is there a full list of all the outsiders and their alignments? Between Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin(I think), Slaadi, Inevitables, Modrons, Daemons, Demons, and Devils and anything between I would love to have it compacted somewhere I could read it over easy.
Secondly, is it possible for outsiders to betray their alignments? And what happens? Angels can fall, as is explained in various books, but it's never, to my knowledge, happened outside of DM control that a Devil becomes chaotic, a Daemon grows a heart, an Inevitable go rogue, or a Slaadi go to law school. I know Modrons have gone rogue in some book as that's the way they're playable but other than them and Angels how does it work?
Finally, is there any circumstance that a hodgepodge of outsiders would work together? A Slaadi and an Inevitable? A Demon and an Archon? A Devil and an Eladrin? Various mixes?
Thanks in advance

[John Longarrow]

Except for the list of outsiders, what you are asking is "What does the DM want for their campaign?"

As DM, you get to decide a lot of this and how it is reflected at your table. You decide how easy / difficult it is for an outsider to behave contrary to their alignment and why they would ever cooperate for some reason.

[Âmesang]

DRAGON Magazine #350 featured an article about Wee Jas that included a succubus servant named Zem'Jil who's alignment (and racial subtype) was altered to lawful evil so as to better serve the Suel deity (it was either that or remain trapped within a talisman for all eternity).

Not sure if it counts if the alignment chance was due to a ritual, though. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Finally, is there any circumstance that a hodgepodge of outsiders would work together? A Slaadi and an Inevitable? A Demon and an Archon? A Devil and an Eladrin? Various mixes?
Thanks in advance

In the Epic Handbook, there's an organization (The Regulators) which furthers Law in general, and has both Archons and Devils that are members.

And Sigil is characterised as "the kind of place where devils and angels might be found having philosophical debates over drinks".

In that context - you could have a certain amount of opposed aligned outsiders working together - where they're only opposed on one axis rather than two.

Double-axis opposed Outsiders working together I could see being rarer - the Order of Seropeanes - from Tome of Magic, might qualify as the kind of organization that could have them - if the outsiders in question are working for deities that sponsor the organization. Goal - oppose Binders, because Binders's powers are seen as anti-deity by the organisation's members.

[Bohandas]

In the Epic Handbook, there's an organization (The Regulators) which furthers Law in general, and has both Archons and Devils that are members.

And Sigil is characterised as "the kind of place where devils and angels might be found having philosophical debates over drinks".

In that context - you could have a certain amount of opposed aligned outsiders working together - where they're only opposed on one axis rather than two.

Double-axis opposed Outsiders working together I could see being rarer - the Order of Seropeanes - from Tome of Magic, might qualify as the kind of organization that could have them - if the outsiders in question are working for deities that sponsor the organization. Goal - oppose Binders, because Binders's powers are seen as anti-deity by the organisation's members.

THe argument could be made that double axis opposition is no further apart than single axis opposition. Otherwise the Great Wheel would be square

[Crake]

THe argument could be made that double axis opposition is no further apart than single axis opposition. Otherwise the Great Wheel would be square

No matter how you view it, a quarter (single axis opposition) turn is closer than a half turn (double axis opposition). The exception for this of course is neutral X alignments, where, for example, neutral good is directly opposite (half turn) to neutral evil.

But Archons and Devils for example, are only a quarter turn away on the alignment wheel.

[Bohandas]

but the alignments could be just as easily rendered as thus

NG|LG|LN
CG|NN|LE
CN|CE|NE

As implied by the honor/dishonor system from UA (Though I've no idea what the CG<->Le axis would be called)

EDIT:

Honorable Orange| Honorable Neutral | Honorable Blue
Neutral Orange | True Neutral | Neutral Blue
Dishonorable Orange | Dishonorable Neutral | Dishonorable Blue
:P

[Crake]

but the alignments could be just as easily rendered as thus

NG|LG|LN
CG|NN|LE
CN|CE|NE

The only time that doesn't make sense is when you take into account true neutral. There are no exemplars for true neutral, so if you exclude true neutral, and instead look at it as going around the circle, rather than a direct line, then it makes more sense. Remember, the thing in the middle of the outer circle is just the astral plane, and the astra plane is equally close to all the planes, which means if you include it, it all falls apart (because everything becomes 2 steps: current plane -> astral plane, astral plane -> destination plane).

[Bohandas]

The neutral outsiders are the Rilmani. I think they're in Fiend Folio. They're not very popular though.

EDIT:
And there's also the Outlands as an alternate middle step.

[Bohandas]

...but it's never, to my knowledge, happened outside of DM control that a Devil becomes chaotic....

IIRC either 4e or 5e has Grazzt's origin as being a former Baatezu spy who went native

[Crake]

The neutral outsiders are the Rilmani. I think they're in Fiend Folio. They're not very popular though.

Well tickle me pink, I always thought there were 8 exemplars, turns out I was wrong. Didn't really ever consider outland to be honest.

Still, opposite on the wheel as opposed to adjacent on the wheel is still further/closer, which I think was the initial point. If you can pass through the neutral point, of course everything is equally close in terms of hops, but in terms of 4th dimensional distance (as referenced by the great wheel diagram), limbo is much further away from mechanus than it is the abyss for example.

This discussion is getting a little too metaphysical for me right now though :smalltongue:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Nitpick OP: Inevitables are not outsiders at all, let alone LN exemplars (that belongs strictly to the modrons).

[hamishspence]

IIRC either 4e or 5e has Grazzt's origin as being a former Baatezu spy who went native

4e. It also has the Demon Prince Pazuzu as the one that lured Asmodeus in the direction of Evil, thereby starting the chain of events that lead to the creation of the Nine Hells.

[digiman619]

Well, you see, Kevin Nash and Scot Hall had just left the WWF to word at WCW, When they joined forces with a now heel Hulk Hogan, the became the NWO. Unfortunately, with the incredible fan support they got from this, they exerted pressure backstage and were giant *******s. This was one of the major factors behind WCW's demise. Seriously, **** those guys. They were selfish asshats that shot anybody that was better than them out via political BS.And by "better" I mean both "had more technical skill" (which wasn't very hard to do), or "had any amount of fan support". Seriously,

[Bohandas]

Well tickle me pink, I always thought there were 8 exemplars, turns out I was wrong. Didn't really ever consider outland to be honest.

Still, opposite on the wheel as opposed to adjacent on the wheel is still further/closer, which I think was the initial point. If you can pass through the neutral point, of course everything is equally close in terms of hops, but in terms of 4th dimensional distance (as referenced by the great wheel diagram), limbo is much further away from mechanus than it is the abyss for example.

This discussion is getting a little too metaphysical for me right now though :smalltongue:

My point was that the Abyss to Celestia or Arborea to Baator was he same metaphysival distance as Elysium to Hades or Mechanus to Limbo

[Ludic]

I've been interested in writing a campaign with more outsiders than I typically use so I've got questions and I'm not really getting it from the books.
Is there a full list of all the outsiders and their alignments? Between Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin(I think), Slaadi, Inevitables, Modrons, Daemons, Demons, and Devils and anything between I would love to have it compacted somewhere I could read it over easy.
Sorta. I mean, if you just know your nine, then you know what the starting alignment is.



Secondly, is it possible for outsiders to betray their alignments? And what happens? Angels can fall, as is explained in various books, but it's never, to my knowledge, happened outside of DM control that a Devil becomes chaotic, a Daemon grows a heart, an Inevitable go rogue, or a Slaadi go to law school. I know Modrons have gone rogue in some book as that's the way they're playable but other than them and Angels how does it work?

BoED contains Redemption rules. The inverse would work the same. Extrapolate the redemption rules in BoED for Corruption Rules. As for rogue Modron, see my next point.



Finally, is there any circumstance that a hodgepodge of outsiders would work together? A Slaadi and an Inevitable? A Demon and an Archon? A Devil and an Eladrin? Various mixes?
Thanks in advance
Planescape my friend. Sigil.

I strongly advise learning the Cant as well. It counts as Common.

Besides, there's nothing better than as the DM having a Astral Deva shush the party while she talks to a Kelvasu thusly, "Oi, berk, ye a little addle-coved eh? Brainbox a bit messed? Next thin' ye know, yer barmy butt'll be deliverin' the mail ta these cutter's righ' 'ere. Tell ye wha', ye'll end up put in the deadbook. I've seen these cuts at work. Better ta take a dice blitzin' a portal, elsewise yer just dancin' with slaadi".

[unseenmage]

Heroic NPCs, thst is pretty much any NPC with class levels and/or a name get to act like PCs insofar as obeying alignment restrictions are concerned.

Like a NG Red Dragon heroic NPC is allowed just as a PC would be, with DM permission.

That said the question becomes, how many special cases do you want to allow?
Enough that the entire multiverse is flooded with off-alignment outsiders or few enough that learning their names is worthwhile/possible.

How you answer the above will depend on or even determine the narrative your game(s) follow.

[Karl Aegis]

This sounds like a good set-up for a courtroom scene where the PCs are on trial for vigilante deporting of legal aliens versus the native outsiders in charge of accepting/denying interplanar travel to the Material Plane. One too many banishments cast in a tiny speck of the infinite cosmos gets Interpol after you. No idea why they are allowing so many non-native outsiders onto this particular mote, but that's their problem.

[Jack_McSnatch]

There's both a fallen angel, and a rogue inevitable in elder evils. The inevitable isn't technically rogue, as his entire purpose is to free one of the elder evils, but since that one's only goal is to kill the gods and implode the universe, you could argue that the inevitable is rogue.