The anti paladin

[Shadowscale]

How would all of you go about justifying an anti paladin story wise in a standard adventuring party?

Mostly curious as I've always wanted to show the depths of chaotic evil without succumbing to pure chaotic stupid. Anyone have any experiences role playing the class players or dm alike?

I'd love for this to be a discussion, maybe if I'm lucky Red Fel will even weigh in. *crosses fingers*

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated

[legomaster00156]

Well, first of all, the LE Tyrant archetype is very easy to justify: whether as party leader or enforcer, Lawful Evil can work perfectly well with a standard adventuring party. However, assuming you want straight Chaotic Evil, here's how you do it.


Ensure there is not a Paladin in the same party. If there is one, find a different class.
Do not be an insane murder-hobo. You can be both wildly chaotic and deeply evil without engaging in murder sprees.
Look into a deity with a less "overtly evil" message. Calistria is a good example, as her antipaladins' primary purpose is to inflict vengeance upon foes.
Last, but very far from least, speak to your fellow players about parameters and boundaries. I cannot stress this enough: if not everyone is on-board with the character OOC, the character will not mesh with the party IC.

[Thealtruistorc]

I just so happened to do a piece of writing on the topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?429591-AntiPaladin-Build-and-Attitude&p=19575137#post19575137)

A more general guide on being Chaotic Evil is in my sig.

Also, don't be a tyrant. Those idiots never go far enough to get anything done.

[Âmesang]

I'm currently playing a chaotic evil drow "antipaladin" (oathbreaker 5/assassin 5) in 5th Edition, and so far she's been sort of the strong dextrous, silent type, her default expression being a sardonic sneer (to borrow from Eclavdra). She's haughty, self-important, condescending, your typical high-born, noble £!¥©#. My last 3rd Edition character was a chaotic evil human sorceress/archmage; a bit more cheerful (in a silvered, snake-tongue sort of way), but generally the same core being—vain, conceited, selfish, self-centered, egotistical, &c. Everything they do they do to sate their own whims and desires, to satisfy their ego and to put them one step closer to completing some penultimate goal, like uniting all giantkind under the drow banner or unlocking the lost secrets of some ancient and terrible magic.

So I suppose my advice would be to not play chaotic evil as some raving lunatic that ravages everything around them without thought or care—basically don't play them as demons. Instead, play them as red dragons; just because you're chaotic and evil does not mean you can't also be intelligent, wise, charismatic, cunning, conniving, and/or clever. Think of chaos as "individualism" and evil as "ruthlessness." You do whatever you can to look out for #1, often times showing no mercy for those around you… but that doesn't mean you can't take pause and choose a non-violent route. If anything, I imagine any chaotic evil character with at least an average Intelligence or Wisdom could see the benefit of working with others to, at the very least, ensure one's own safety. Yeah, you could rob from the party for a temporary gain… or aid them in their adventures for a more permanent boon. Plus, if you do tick off the party you'll only end up creating more enemies for you to go up against… and who really needs that? Better to use your Intelligence or Charisma to work with others as beneficently as you can stomach so as to help keep the overall party strong and to help turn aside any suspicions they might have of you, thus bettering your chances at completing your own nefarious schemes.

(Honestly half of the fun of playing a villainous character, for me, is coming up with reasons for why they wouldn't betray the party whilst still having some villainous ambition or goal as well as a fairly snarky attitude.)

I bookmarked the "Guide to Chaotic Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment)," and I also always liked this particular piece from DRAGONLANCE®:


"Black Robe wizards embrace the cause of evil. They do not, however, hurl random fireballs at peasant's cottages (at least, not usually), since such activities would abuse and jeopardize their primary loyalty, which is to magic itself. Black Robe wizards may be cruel, but they are also selfish and cunning, and avoid open acts of violence if a more subtle way can be found."
EDIT: Ha, in typing out this long blurb I was ninja'd by the guide's very author. :smalltongue:

[Shadowscale]

I just so happened to do a piece of writing on the topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?429591-AntiPaladin-Build-and-Attitude&p=19575137#post19575137)

A more general guide on being Chaotic Evil is in my sig.

Also, don't be a tyrant. Those idiots never go far enough to get anything done.

This is amazing, thank you so much. Chaotic evil is my favorite alignment, I love playing it as it allows one so much freedom even if you're not making it a goal to harm others. I find a tragic chaotic evil type with selfish yet still passionate attachments towards others can be fun. These are my current ideas


A lot to work with so far I appreciate all this discussion

[Geddy2112]

Remember, all parties are chaotic evil murderhobos, but at least you are going to admit it.

Since you are in PF, I suggest using a deity and their particular antipaladin code. Even Rovagug's bitter nihilism can be a party friendly antipaladin. The clause "the tools of destruction will be destroyed last" applies to your party. They are you friends, and for most adventures this means running around and being murderhobos-just let them do them and revel in the destruction, and make sure they keep on killing and looting and leaving a wake of corpses and burnt down taverns that all adventuring parties do.

Calistria is probably the most functional code for an antipaladin, as she is chaotic neutral. All you have to do is get revenge on behalf of your adventuring party and indulge in hedonistic pleasure-if anyone lays so much as a finger on your friends you will tear them asunder. You can play this kind of antipaladin as the big brother/big sister that watches over your friends and family. Likewise, Calistria is rather debaucherous so you can always live it up with the party when you are not off being murderhobos.

If your party is undead friendly, Urgathoa replaces Calistria's revenge with undeath, but keeps the hedonism.

[Calthropstu]

A good example of chaotic evil in movies would be captain barbosa from pirates of the caribbean. He has friends, acquaintances, allies. He has subordinates and superiors... and when he sees something he wants, he does anything he can to take it. He's not stupid about it though, he doesn't go on a murderous rampage on a whim. He is powerful, immortal and has the ability to crush just about any other ship in the sea.

Captain Barbosa is what all chaotic evil characters want to become.

[Thealtruistorc]

Captain Barbosa is what all chaotic evil characters want to become.

Whoa whoa whoa there, bucko. Just because Barbosa is powerful and well-liked doesn't mean that he is the guy that every chaotic evil character wants to be. He's an archetypal behemoth, certainly, but at the same time he stands for nothing, changes the world in no way, and is trapped in a web of obligations that many CE characters would view as too laughable or pathetic to get engaged in.

A case could just as easily be made for V (from V for Vendetta the comic), or the Queen of Hearts (from the animated Alice in Wonderland), or Bonesaw (from Worm), or Kefka (from Final Fantasy VI), or one of dozens of different other characters from all sorts of stories and mediums. Very few chaotic evil characters want the same thing, and saying that all of them look up to a certain image is missing the point that chaos and evil are infinitely expansive and nebulous elements. Good is a concrete ideal, as is law, so these two concepts can easily be constrained to a few images that represent the whole picture. Chaotic evil is the void of both of these, and so any attempt to construct chaos or evil as a concrete set of ambitions neglects a thousand other ideals or views that would exist within the realms beyond order.

[Peat]

This might be somewhat cliche, but the business and political worlds provide plenty of examples of people with no respect for common morality or the rules beyond the possibility of being punished by them, but who nevertheless work successfully and prolongedly with others, often quite amiably. Indeed some of them are very charming. As an Antipaladin would be.

I mean, the Antipaladin's devotion takes things a step further, but the basic principle is there.