Am i being unreasonable, or is the DM

[Efrate]

Ok heres situation. Going to be playing in a FR game, the concept i have is this hellbred DFA, LE alignment. The idea is a person who though reborn, will stop at nothing to subjugate everything up to and including fate, devils, whatever, to take control of his destiny so as to not go to hell. I pondered swearing to an elder evil to seek oblivion or immortality, but seeing as how dm said no to vile feats and him not wanting to run anything involving them i abandobed that. I decided to make my patron tiamat, since it fits and she doesnt live in hell in faerun.

His issue is because of the scourging it doesnt make sense for me to be evil, despite me being a free willed pc. My argument was the character is willing to do anything no matter the cost to seize control of his fate. I wanted to play back aganst the wall, no holds barred, going all in to be in control and one up the hells. I had I thought a decent reason, a driving force that compells me to do whatever i feel i must. Im racing against time and I take the path that I at least know.

He said as a lvl 1 character fluff disagrees on the whole, despite me pointing out a sample hellbred character given is NE. He hard veteos me and says good or its a no. I thought of being good then just committing evil to change to LE but that feels too munchkinny and its not what I wanted.

Am I out of line being upset here? I threw together a half baked human with control issues, to keep it mechanically similar, but I feel I've lost a driving sense of urgency and hes just going to be kind of an entitled pain in the rear.

Or was he in the wrong telling me I can't RP the concept in a way I want. I know im biased, but thoughts?

[Zanos]

At the end of the day, the DM has final say on his setting. If he says there aren't any Evil examples of X race, that's his call.

But in the default setting, Evil hellbred exist, and in fact a Hellbred redeeming themselves by normal methods is nearly, but not quite, impossible. Hellbred are damned, and that knowledge could pretty easily have one of them slip back into evilness.

Something you haven't mentioned though. Is this because there are no Evil Hellbred, or because the DM doesn't want Evil characters at all?

[FocusWolf413]

He's right.

1) The DM always has veto power over characters.
2) Your character does not fit in with established fluff.
3) Your character does not fit in with the DM's world.
4) He told you no and he's running the game.

The fluff is basically that Hellbred formerly committed a great evil or a demon/devil had a claim on the soul and through shenanigans a GOOD diety gave them a second chance at redemption. Hellbred are about curses, consequences, and redemption. At least, that's what your DM seems to think.

Just be a human or see if you can refluff dragoborn or something. Work WITH him, not against him. Ask what WILL work, don't fight about what won't.

[Efrate]

He says as a lvl 1 i must have just come out of the scourging and wouldnt choose that path. Hes fine with evil, just not evil hellbred.

[Efrate]

Dragonborn veteoed, no free flight/blindsense/templates/feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry bud, but you're wrong here. Newly scourged hellbred default to LG.

Now unless you need to be evil from level 1 and/or retraining isn't allowed, your idea of starting LG and descending to evil once more is a fine character arc -if- you do it well. I'd hardly call it munchkinry. Most options tied to alignment are forfeit if you shift to the opposite alignment so there's really not much way to leverage it.

[Zanos]

Sorry bud, but you're wrong here. Newly scourged hellbred default to LG.

Now unless you need to be evil from level 1 and/or retraining isn't allowed, your idea of starting LG and descending to evil once more is a fine character arc -if- you do it well. I'd hardly call it munchkinry. Most options tied to alignment are forfeit if you shift to the opposite alignment so there's really not much way to leverage it.
Do hellbred necessarily know about their plight? He could easily learn more about his kind of creature as he adventures, and then go "I have to do WHAT to be redeemed? Freezing over hell would be easier!", and then go with that instead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dragonborn veteoed, no free flight/blindsense/templates/feats.

Just gotta sell harder to the platinum father. Dragonborn is one of the few guaranteed ways to get out of your hellbred damnation but you've -really- gotta sell it for Bahamut's blessing, which is necessary to undergo the transformation ritual.

These things work better if you work -with- the DM to get there as part of the plot of the game rather than getting difficult because you can't just take them as part of your backstory.

[Efrate]

I could do it, and i would its not hard, road to hell and all that, but if i commit to that i see no difference from just starting LE. If we both know im going there, and it doesnt matter for levels 1 or 2, though it does at 3, i dont see the point personally. I need non good at least by level 3, and evil at some point in the future.

Its just a personal thing then, id never tell my players how you can/cannot chose your alignment and how you rp it, barring kill everything for the lulz/dont work with the party cause hurr durr evil. Thats disruptive and being a pain.

His game his rules, thanks giant helped me cool my head a bit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do hellbred necessarily know about their plight? He could easily learn more about his kind of creature as he adventures, and then go "I have to do WHAT to be redeemed? Freezing over hell would be easier!", and then go with that instead.

The description in FC2 strongly implies that they know about their damnation and the need to do great deeds to warrant salvation.

[Efrate]

Anything with bahamut is basically a no, i cant take his breath even because his prescence in faerun is suspect according to dm. I remade it already as just a weird human from thay, im unsatisfied but i can make it work.

[Efrate]

That was my point kelb, i see the road before me, its impossible, with next to no chance. But there are other evil powers out there i know, and damning myself further, or differenrly ,is likely easier and has a higher success rate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Its just a personal thing then, id never tell my players how you can/cannot chose your alignment and how you rp it, barring kill everything for the lulz/dont work with the party cause hurr durr evil. Thats disruptive and being a pain.

I'm normally inclined to agree but you picked a race that's got a built-in "always start LG." If you were playing a freshly hatched black dragon or a freshly turned vampire whose sire was just killed it'd be no different.

You've got a built-in excuse to go evil again and 3 levels could take months in game. Just talk it out and work together for a compromise that will make you both happy in the end.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anything with bahamut is basically a no, i cant take his breath even because his prescence in faerun is suspect according to dm.

What? Bahamut and Tiamat are a pair. They're two sides of the same draconic coin and there's no FR specific fluff to contradict the default fluff, IIRC. That sounds a bit odd.

[Zanos]

Bahamut is specifically in the Faerunian pantheon. I believe he's mentioned in several FR specific books. Dragons of Faerun, maybe? He's not nearly as powerful though, as a Lesser Deity under Torm.

[John Longarrow]

As you asked I'd have to say you are.

DM sets forth some ground rules for all. This includes one specific race sticking with the alignment given by the fluff. You ask for an exception but the DM doesn't grant it.

It is unreasonable to try and force your view upon the game.

As the others have pointed out though, work with your DM. You may have a character that starts LG, is played LG, but is given a chance around 2nd/3rd level to totally fall... If the DM is in on it.

For your build, why do you need to be evil by 3rd though?

[Kish]

"His presence in faerun is suspect according to dm"="his presence in the DM's version of Faerun is uncertain, whatever books he appears in."

Now, if the DM says something like "I'd love to have Bahamut, but I feel bound to canon and I know no Forgotten Realms book he appears in," then you can point the book in question out, but if he just says "he may not exist in this campaign world," leave it at that.

[icefractal]

I think the GM is being overly strict here though. What would it really hurt?

[Efrate]

Hes not a known diety like tiamat was his reasoning. So anything with him is so rare and esoteric as to be basically unknown. Got to be non good by lvl 3 cause im taking a binder dip.

As for fluff, well all outsiders are always xyz alignment, but as a pc you are an exceptional specimen so you can be whatever is my reasoning, pcs are the exceptions. No reason an angel cant be fallen, thats how eryines became a thing. Despite them always being good.

I see his argument, i just dont agree with it. As said the game starts tomorrow and im all built and such as a non hellbred. I did mention starting and falling but he disagreed, given the timeline we will fast track till around level 4 then pace will slow, and i dont feel right trying to rush an otherwise organic thing to fit with mechanics and timing.

[Vaz]

DM creates game in setting, player makes snowflake character which just gets noped. Both parties dig heels in.

You have the ability to be anything. Literally anything. Forgotten Realms, so much sunstantiative lore available, with different humans, lands, other races to give life to a character. And you have to play the snowflake which he has already said no to.

Just accept that, and choose a different character. This time, work with the DM, not against him.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hes not a known diety like tiamat was his reasoning. So anything with him is so rare and esoteric as to be basically unknown.

...okay. Doesn't stop you guys from working something out; perhaps a tome of forgotten lore in a treasure pile, like maybe a dragon's horde? (remember that even chromatics respect the platinum father.)


Got to be non good by lvl 3 cause im taking a binder dip.

Eh? 'nother houserule?


As for fluff, well all outsiders are always xyz alignment, but as a pc you are an exceptional specimen so you can be whatever is my reasoning, pcs are the exceptions. No reason an angel cant be fallen, thats how eryines became a thing. Despite them always being good.

Such outsiders have also typically lived for eons and the chaos that spawns eladrin and demons also spawned the gods of law in the time before time. It's a lot less strange or such creaturs to -very, very- rarely find themselves on the wrong side of the alignment axis for their kind. You gotta at least work a -why- into the character's backstory for them being that dramatically different.

Side note: erinyes didn't just fall. They were created before the division of good and evil in the heavans and became devils as part of the pact primeval.


I see his argument, i just dont agree with it. As said the game starts tomorrow and im all built and such as a non hellbred. I did mention starting and falling but he disagreed, given the timeline we will fast track till around level 4 then pace will slow, and i dont feel right trying to rush an otherwise organic thing to fit with mechanics and timing.

Fair 'nuff. Could be a lot worse. At least you have a DM. I haven't been on the player side of the screen in a while :smallsigh:

[Efrate]

Neither have in several years until recently. Sorry kelb dming is great but it does get wearing.

And yes binders have alignment of non good as per houserule. Easiest early way to start taking 10 on stuff. With luck by lvl 11 the only thing ill ever roll is initiative. Thats the plan.

[Zanos]

Fair 'nuff. Could be a lot worse. At least you have a DM. I haven't been on the player side of the screen in a while :smallsigh:
Could try Roll20 if you don't mind rolling a 1d20-8 for player quality...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Could try Roll20 if you don't mind rolling a 1d20-8 for player quality...

Got the app, setup a profile, haven't really used it much. At all, really.

[Pugwampy]

If you want play and explore evil , be the DM . Players are heroes and good guys . you have better hub town support , better access to temples and healing and nice taverns .

Being evil makes this game more sucky and your average player cannot handle that pressure . The evil party game will go south very fast believe me .

[killem2]

On one hand I would agree with the DM mostly because at level 1 I would need to see some serious background stuff to Warrant such a change however your DM is not quite on the right level because in level one character doesn't mean a fresh Adventure refresh person or a novice or someone just looking to get out into the world at a very young age. Some Adventures actually have fulfilled very meaningful non adventuring lines to them to come Adventures

[Kesnit]

And yes binders have alignment of non good as per houserule.

Non-good can mean Neutral. There is no reason to antagonize the DM further by going directly from Good to Evil.

[Stealth Marmot]

If you want play and explore evil , be the DM . Players are heroes and good guys . you have better hub town support , better access to temples and healing and nice taverns .

Being evil makes this game more sucky and your average player cannot handle that pressure . The evil party game will go south very fast believe me .

I disagree that players are always good guys. Players are always protagonists, but protagonists aren't always good guys.

that said, D&D is more suited towards players being good to neutral and has traditionally been about the heroes saving the world, but capital E-vil can still be played if you want.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm gonna go ahead and say you're both being unreasonable. :smalltongue:

[JoshuaZ]

The character idea is a fun and interesting one, but it seems well within normal DM range to veto it as not matching the fluff as closely as they would prefer.