Dual rapier wielder

[danielxcutter]

Thought exercise; probably not coming soon to a table near you.

Anyone have ideas for a martial build that uses TWFs with two rapiers? Yes, yes, I know about Daring Outlaw and Tome of Battle; I want to see if there are any other options available at reasonable power levels. If you really don't have anything, advice for a Daring Outlaw build is fine, aside from the obvious stuff like "get Craven".

[Troacctid]

Well, it's a one-handed weapon, so you take a really nasty penalty for wielding it in your off-hand. You can get rid of the penalty with a feat tax, but is that better than just using kukris or short swords? You tell me. *shrug*

The Wolf Fang Strike maneuver actually lets you attack with two one-handed weapons at no additional penalty, which is nifty. But if you're going the Tiger Claw route, then there's an even cooler thing you can do: be a Diopsid, dual-wield greataxes, and use the Bloodclaw Master prestige class to take no penalty for it. Like. A. Boss.

Adding the Multiheaded template is also an...interesting option. It removes all penalties for fighting with two or more weapons.

[flappeercraft]

I would probably use a bit of Swashbuckler/Ranger. Probably a Lesser Tiefling as race could fit well for the bonus Int and Dex. Possibly a couple rogue levels could be good for the SA. If you go the Swashbuckler/Rogue route then I would reccomend taking the Daring outlaw feat which IIRC is from Complete Scoundrel.

Edit: I just re-read the post and I just noticed you did mention Daring Outlaw already but my opinion still stands. Inwould reccomend a Ranger 6/Swashbuckler 13/Rogue 1 by 20th level and obviously with the Daring outlaw feat.

[danielxcutter]

Well, it's a one-handed weapon, so you take a really nasty penalty for wielding it in your off-hand. You can get rid of the penalty with a feat tax, but is that better than just using kukris or short swords? You tell me. *shrug*

I believe that such a thing is called YMMV, senpai.


The Wolf Fang Strike maneuver actually lets you attack with two one-handed weapons at no additional penalty, which is nifty. But if you're going the Tiger Claw route, then there's an even cooler thing you can do: be a Diopsid, dual-wield greataxes, and use the Bloodclaw Master prestige class to take no penalty for it. Like. A. Boss.

I was wondering when I'd be able to link this.. ("https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H841uTdr5S0)


Adding the Multiheaded template is also an...interesting option. It removes all penalties for fighting with two or more weapons.

How much LA does it have? Also, does it have any other advantages/disadvantages that I should care about?

[Jack_McSnatch]

I mean if you really wanna dual wield those things... I guess you could do weapon aptitude shenanigans? If you were to instead use, say, a kukri as your off hand weapon, you could get a decent synergy using the Steal and Strike and Crescent Moon weapon style feats. If you hit with both weapons you get a disarm attempt. If you successfully disarm an opponent you get a free attack with your kukri.

If you really really want to dual wield rapiers there's the FR specific feat that gives you a tiny dodge bonus if you're using two identical swords. It works with toothpicks, and you could take the two weapon defense feats. Combine with expertise, deadly defense, riposte, and... I dunno, some way to use both weapons on an AoO. That could get really nasty using the Riposte scout acf. Gives you skirmish whenever they attack you.

[danielxcutter]

I mean if you really wanna dual wield those things... I guess you could do weapon aptitude shenanigans? If you were to instead use, say, a kukri as your off hand weapon, you could get a decent synergy using the Steal and Strike and Crescent Moon weapon style feats. If you hit with both weapons you get a disarm attempt. If you successfully disarm an opponent you get a free attack with your kukri.

If you really really want to dual wield rapiers there's the FR specific feat that gives you a tiny dodge bonus if you're using two identical swords. It works with toothpicks, and you could take the two weapon defense feats. Combine with expertise, deadly defense, riposte, and... I dunno, some way to use both weapons on an AoO. That could get really nasty using the Riposte scout acf. Gives you skirmish whenever they attack you.

Huh. This is...something. I'd prefer to not abuse Apitude, though.

[Troacctid]

How much LA does it have? Also, does it have any other advantages/disadvantages that I should care about?
+2 LA, +2 HD. You also get +2 Con, +2 Perception, +1 natural armor, and Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative as bonus feats. I'd recommend pairing it with an outsider, since they have the best HD. LA +0 outsiders include Neraph, Glimmerfolk, and the Savage Progression versions of Aasimar and Tiefling. Dragon RHD are also great, so Dragonwrought Kobold would work too (and you'd get an extra bite attack for good measure).

[danielxcutter]

+2 LA, +2 HD. You also get +2 Con, +2 Perception, +1 natural armor, and Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative as bonus feats. I'd recommend pairing it with an outsider, since they have the best HD. LA +0 outsiders include Neraph, Glimmerfolk, and the Savage Progression versions of Aasimar and Tiefling. Dragon RHD are also great, so Dragonwrought Kobold would work too (and you'd get an extra bite attack for good measure).

This could be interesting...

[Darrin]

Obligatory plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

Some thoughts: Oversized TWF feat brings the primary/offhand penalty down to -2/-2. Feycraft rapier in the offhand would also work, although at that point the weapon stats are identical to a kukri.

There's a fighter bonus feat in Ghostwalk called Dancing Blade... +1 attack bonus when making a full attack with a rapier. It's untyped and stacks with Weapon Focus. It's not a very *good* feat (worse than Weapon Focus)... but it does stack with Weapon Focus, and the +2 negates the -2/-2 TWF penalty.

As for Daring Outlaw... how about this:

Race: Silverbrow Human.
1) Sneak-Attack Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. Human: TWF.
2) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
3) Swashbuckler 2. Feat: Daring Outlaw.

Full BAB. 11d6 sneak attack. Weakening and Wounding Critical. (Assuming zero Rogue + 19 Swashbuckler still counts for sneak attack.)

Probably the biggest problem for Daring Outlaw is... the back end is a bit of a slog through a thick chunk of boring class features. You can liven this up a bit with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4.

[danielxcutter]

Obligatory plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

Some thoughts: Oversized TWF feat brings the primary/offhand penalty down to -2/-2. Feycraft rapier in the offhand would also work, although at that point the weapon stats are identical to a kukri.

There's a fighter bonus feat in Ghostwalk called Dancing Blade... +1 attack bonus when making a full attack with a rapier. It's untyped and stacks with Weapon Focus. It's not a very *good* feat (worse than Weapon Focus)... but it does stack with Weapon Focus, and the +2 negates the -2/-2 TWF penalty.

As for Daring Outlaw... how about this:

Race: Silverbrow Human.
1) Sneak-Attack Hit-and-Run Fighter 1. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. Human: TWF.
2) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
3) Swashbuckler 2. Feat: Daring Outlaw.

Full BAB. 11d6 sneak attack. Weakening and Wounding Critical. (Assuming zero Rogue + 19 Swashbuckler still counts for sneak attack.)

Probably the biggest problem for Daring Outlaw is... the back end is a bit of a slog through a thick chunk of boring class features. You can liven this up a bit with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4.

Ah, I was wondering when that would be mentioned. I'm not sure about Dragon Devotee, as I'm not familiar with it, but Dancing Blade and Weapon Focus(Rapier) sound intriguing.

[TristanS]

If you are willing to be a little cheesy, take Lightning Maces and get 2 rapiers with aptitude?

That lets you gain Lightning Mace abilities (extra attacks when threaten crit) with the rapiers ... crazy feat intensive, but could be worth it?

[danielxcutter]

If you are willing to be a little cheesy, take Lightning Maces and get 2 rapiers with aptitude?

That lets you gain Lightning Mace abilities (extra attacks when threaten crit) with the rapiers ... crazy feat intensive, but could be worth it?

Ah, the cheese! The glorious cheese!

Short answer: No.

Thanks for taking the time to answer anyways, I just wanted to have some fun.