Summon humanoid

[Gwaednerth]

I'm sure it's come up before, but I've been creating rules for travel between the planes in my current setting, and a funny encounter just occurred to me.

Humanoids think nothing of pulling a handful of dretches out of their daily lives to be cannon fodder in some dungeon crawl, so isn't it only natural to think that extraplanar beings do the same with humans?

I'm thinking this should be a random encounter. But the heroes being snatched away from whatever they're doing to get beaten on by giants/demons/eldritch abominations until they die and rematerialise safely on the Prime Material sounds like it could be an amusing encounter.

Thoughts?

[Aharon]

I'm sure it's come up before, but I've been creating rules for travel between the planes in my current setting, and a funny encounter just occurred to me.

Humanoids think nothing of pulling a handful of dretches out of their daily lives to be cannon fodder in some dungeon crawl, so isn't it only natural to think that extraplanar beings do the same with humans?

I'm thinking this should be a random encounter. But the heroes being snatched away from whatever they're doing to get beaten on by giants/demons/eldritch abominations until they die and rematerialise safely on the Prime Material sounds like it could be an amusing encounter.

Thoughts?

For summoning, depending on the metaphysics of your campaign, it may be a bad idea because it would lead to wide-spread first-hand knowledge of planar conflicts. While the average priest of an evil god probably knows what awaits him in the afterlife, and just hopes he'll end up on top of the food chain and not as a dretch or something, most believers probably don't. If there are regular dudes coming back and reporting on the horrors of the Blood War, recruiting might get harder for the evil gods. Good beings probably oppose it on ideal-based grounds - summoning a being of pure good to fight your fight is an ok thing to do, summoning Joe the Warrior who's just doing his job guarding the armory - maybe less so.

But this does work with Calling, if the Summoner knows the heroes' names. It will be hard to write this in a non-railroady way. Maybe best if the Summoner doesn't use the usual PO-binding tactics, but instead actually negotiates with the PCs.

[Falcon X]

I feel like this could and should work, with a few notes:
- The summoner would be pulling from many different Prime Material worlds. That any single person would be summoned would be VERY rare.
- Such spells often pull only a few people at a time. Those people will be considered insane if they ever make it back home.
- Most intelligent humanoids on the Prime Material planes aren't very strong fighters by nature. Summoning a human is as likely to get a peasant woman with a frying pan than an adventurer with class levels.
- It's possible that only calling Primers is possible. Outsiders are just plain different in the way they live and die. It could be physiology as much as anything that lets an outsider be summoned, killed, and sent back alive again.

That being said. It's magic. There can be a spell made to summon primers and ensure that they are fully equipped for combat when they come. Why not?!

[Gwaednerth]

For summoning, depending on the metaphysics of your campaign, it may be a bad idea because it would lead to wide-spread first-hand knowledge of planar conflicts. While the average priest of an evil god probably knows what awaits him in the afterlife, and just hopes he'll end up on top of the food chain and not as a dretch or something, most believers probably don't. If there are regular dudes coming back and reporting on the horrors of the Blood War, recruiting might get harder for the evil gods. Good beings probably oppose it on ideal-based grounds - summoning a being of pure good to fight your fight is an ok thing to do, summoning Joe the Warrior who's just doing his job guarding the armory - maybe less so.

But this does work with Calling, if the Summoner knows the heroes' names. It will be hard to write this in a non-railroady way. Maybe best if the Summoner doesn't use the usual PO-binding tactics, but instead actually negotiates with the PCs.

That's an interesting implication. Perhaps even a whole campaign could be built around the reverse: some Demon Lord being pissed that his henchman got blinked away by some adventurer in the middle of a scheme. It would be a great Wrath of Khan, monster of the week turns into supreme baddie kind of thing.
Either way, an encounter with a priest who doesn't believe (or denies to maintain political power) the players' stories about being summoned might be fun.
I tend to run alignment a little differently (I have selfishness vs selflessness and malice vs benevolence instead of good and evil) so summoning an angel or a demon is much more like summoning Joe the Warrior.
The Calling thing could create interesting roleplay, but I love the idea of the randomness of the summoning. I mean, does the celestial badger get a save or a negotiation? No, it just gets plunked down on some unfamiliar plane to get squished by orcs. It'd be funny to see the heroes have to experience the flip side of the summoning coin.

[Gwaednerth]

I feel like this could and should work, with a few notes:
- The summoner would be pulling from many different Prime Material worlds. That any single person would be summoned would be VERY rare.
- Such spells often pull only a few people at a time. Those people will be considered insane if they ever make it back home.
- Most intelligent humanoids on the Prime Material planes aren't very strong fighters by nature. Summoning a human is as likely to get a peasant woman with a frying pan than an adventurer with class levels.
- It's possible that only calling Primers is possible. Outsiders are just plain different in the way they live and die. It could be physiology as much as anything that lets an outsider be summoned, killed, and sent back alive again.

That being said. It's magic. There can be a spell made to summon primers and ensure that they are fully equipped for combat when they come. Why not?!

I definitely agree that it should be rare. Having people blinked all over the cosmos would get weird. Might be fun to build something in the genre of the tippyverse around that idea though.

As for the insanity thing, that could be fun. It could create some real roleplay opportunities for the players when they return and everyone thinks they're nuts/boasting/etc. There could also be a fun encounter with a supposed madman who did, in fact, get summoned.

Not being a strong fighter doesn't seem to bother human wizards. I mean, look at the options for summon monster I. It's all weak stuff that's best used as cannon fodder or a more efficient way to detect traps.

Non-outsiders can be summoned though, so I don't think it's a uniquely outsiderish quality.

[Crake]

Non-outsiders can be summoned though, so I don't think it's a uniquely outsiderish quality.

Non-outsiders, sure, but I'm pretty sure the entirety of the summon monster list is "fiendish/celestial animals, outsiders, and elementals", while the entirety of the summon nature's ally list is "fey, elementals and animals"

Clearly some for summon monster some kind of planar being is required, and for summon nature's ally, some form of innate, close ties with nature is required.

The way I see it is that summoning a planar being, since they're literally made of planar essence, is just like channeling fire for [fire] spells, or good for [good] spells. Remember that the creature is not actually there, it's just a physical representation of a creature who actually exists.

Besides, there is a "summon humanoid" spell, it's called gate.

[Gwaednerth]

Non-outsiders, sure, but I'm pretty sure the entirety of the summon monster list is "fiendish/celestial animals, outsiders, and elementals", while the entirety of the summon nature's ally list is "fey, elementals and animals"

Clearly some for summon monster some kind of planar being is required, and for summon nature's ally, some form of innate, close ties with nature is required.

The way I see it is that summoning a planar being, since they're literally made of planar essence, is just like channeling fire for [fire] spells, or good for [good] spells. Remember that the creature is not actually there, it's just a physical representation of a creature who actually exists.

Besides, there is a "summon humanoid" spell, it's called gate.

I always took it to be that the creature is, in fact, summoned but that when they get dropped to zero HP they get sent back to their home plane unharmed.
From an Outsider's perspective, why would summoning something from the Prime Material be any different from when Native creatures summon Outsiders to the Prime Material? Wouldn't they see it as being just like channeling fire?
Gate is far more complex than SM or SNA. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that, unless they're summoning humanoids with craptons of HD, Outsiders would be able to use a simple spell to manage it.

[Fayd]

A completely random thought, but going off of the idea that you summon a projection of the being rather than the whole entity (except for Calling and Gate), this could be an interesting hook for a world. Summon ________ spells are what dreams are. Your projection gets summoned to another strange reality and you have to accomplish your task; sometimes it's horrific (combat), sometimes it's weird (exploration), and there are other possible purposes too!

Could be interesting at any rate!

[Crake]

A completely random thought, but going off of the idea that you summon a projection of the being rather than the whole entity (except for Calling and Gate), this could be an interesting hook for a world. Summon ________ spells are what dreams are. Your projection gets summoned to another strange reality and you have to accomplish your task; sometimes it's horrific (combat), sometimes it's weird (exploration), and there are other possible purposes too!

Could be interesting at any rate!

Oh, that is actually a really awesome idea, and I would totally steal it if I didn't already have a set cosmology for dreams :smallfrown:

[Fayd]

Oh, that is actually a really awesome idea, and I would totally steal it if I didn't already have a set cosmology for dreams :smallfrown:

Anyone who wants to can go ahead and use it. It's a cool enough idea and I've not got a particular reason to say "NO YOU CAN'T USE IT" and ... practically speaking no way to know if you did. So it's free reign.

[mabriss lethe]

A completely random thought, but going off of the idea that you summon a projection of the being rather than the whole entity (except for Calling and Gate), this could be an interesting hook for a world. Summon ________ spells are what dreams are. Your projection gets summoned to another strange reality and you have to accomplish your task; sometimes it's horrific (combat), sometimes it's weird (exploration), and there are other possible purposes too!

Could be interesting at any rate!

In that sort of world, you could have the pool of available summoned humanoids be from people currently asleep. It could also make use of the wonky Lucid Dreaming material from 3.0.

[Ludic]

Non-outsiders, sure, but I'm pretty sure the entirety of the summon monster list is "fiendish/celestial animals, outsiders, and elementals", while the entirety of the summon nature's ally list is "fey, elementals and animals"

Technically, an Outsider is a being not native to the material plane. If you assume the material plane to be subjective to the caster, IE Solar's are native to Celestia, therefore, Celestia is the material plane to them, then, would goblins not be natives to the Solar's material plane, therefore be extraplanar to them, and thus subject to Summon Monster?

Spitballing here.

[Gwaednerth]

A completely random thought, but going off of the idea that you summon a projection of the being rather than the whole entity (except for Calling and Gate), this could be an interesting hook for a world. Summon ________ spells are what dreams are. Your projection gets summoned to another strange reality and you have to accomplish your task; sometimes it's horrific (combat), sometimes it's weird (exploration), and there are other possible purposes too!

Could be interesting at any rate!

Neat! I like it

[Crake]

Technically, an Outsider is a being not native to the material plane. If you assume the material plane to be subjective to the caster, IE Solar's are native to Celestia, therefore, Celestia is the material plane to them, then, would goblins not be natives to the Solar's material plane, therefore be extraplanar to them, and thus subject to Summon Monster?

Spitballing here.

Nah, that's not correct, outsiders are beings made up of the essence of the outer planes, hence the name, what you're thinking of is extraplanar, a common misconception, though even then not entirely true. Extraplanar only means they're not native to the plane that they're currently on. Elementals are beings made up of the essence of the elemental planes, and are likewise not native to the material plane, and there are plenty of planar dragons not native to the material plane that are not outsiders, just to name a few examples.

The material plane is it's own plane, and distinct from a creature's home plane by the way, so celestia is never "a material plane", it's an outer plane. Basically Outsider =/= Extraplanar, they are not interchangable terms. You used it correctly with the goblin, they would be extraplanar on celestia, but i'm not talking about extraplanar creatures, im talking about outsiders, which are literally comprised of the very essence of their native plane (except for native outsiders, which are normal dudes just like us... kinda).

[Gwaednerth]

Technically, an Outsider is a being not native to the material plane. If you assume the material plane to be subjective to the caster, IE Solar's are native to Celestia, therefore, Celestia is the material plane to them, then, would goblins not be natives to the Solar's material plane, therefore be extraplanar to them, and thus subject to Summon Monster?

Spitballing here.

Yeah, that's basically my reasoning. I think it makes sense.

[Andezzar]

Don't forget, summoning does not bring a certain creature to you, but it creates a copy of a certain creature for you to use. Calling is the type of spell that actually drags a creature from their daily lives and brings it someplace else. Summon Undead, Summon Warforged Champion etc. already set precedents that different types of creatures can be summoned (some of them don't even need to be extraplanar). So it should just be a matter of research to create a summon humanoid spell.

Whether you want a calling spell that can target humanoids beyond Gate is a totally different question.

[Ludic]

On a slightly off-topic note. Since one is playing a spell caster of some sort to be doing this. The player should be familiar with combat in three dimensions (because what spellcaster stays on the ground these days).


Summon Monster/Nature's Ally state the summoned creature appears where you designate (within the spell's range of Close). Soo, summon shenanigans . . . summon an obscenely large creature, directly above the enemy. Pretty sure a whale beats strength check.

Moving beyond. Calling spells works in a similar fashion (but without explicitly noting that the summoned creature appears where you want them, however, it has the same range) except it can be a specific creature that you have to know the name of. Soooo, if you know the name of an obscenely large person . . .

This also works with major creation . . . Summon a 440 square foot rectangle of iron above someone . . . It falls . . .

[Andezzar]

On a slightly off-topic note. Since one is playing a spell caster of some sort to be doing this. The player should be familiar with combat in three dimensions (because what spellcaster stays on the ground these days).


Summon Monster/Nature's Ally state the summoned creature appears where you designate (within the spell's range of Close). Soo, summon shenanigans . . . summon an obscenely large creature, directly above the enemy. Pretty sure a whale beats strength check.

Moving beyond. Calling spells works in a similar fashion (but without explicitly noting that the summoned creature appears where you want them, however, it has the same range) except it can be a specific creature that you have to know the name of. Soooo, if you know the name of an obscenely large person . . .You cannot have summoned or called creatures fall on enemies or objects:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

[khadgar567]

You cannot have summoned or called creatures fall on enemies or objects:
tensers floating disk says hi.

[Ludic]

You cannot have summoned or called creatures fall on enemies or objects:

That's actually very easy to circumvent. If you're a spell caster that can summon, you can already bend reality to your will anyhow.

Force cage your target, summon on the cage, dispel the cage.

If you aren't thinking outside the box on spellcasting you really aren't getting the most out of it.


tensers floating disk says hi.

Also that. Well played sir, I forgot about tenser. But it doesn't get very high if I recall correctly.

[khadgar567]

That's actually very easy to circumvent. If you're a spell caster that can summon, you can already bend reality to your will anyhow.

Force cage your target, summon on the cage, dispel the cage.

If you aren't thinking outside the box on spellcasting you really aren't getting the most out of it.



Also that. Well played sir, I forgot about tenser. But it doesn't get very high if I recall correctly.
you just need it for 1 or 2 seconds to anchor the summon then no problem plus you can connect to your self.

[Andezzar]

tensers floating disk says hi.Tenser's floating disk is not a conjuration spell, so it is irrelevant to the discussion.



Force cage your target, summon on the cage, dispel the cage.Which summoning spell can summon a forcecage, especially one with a creature in it? It would work to make the forcecage first, then summon the creature into it and then remove the cage. But that is not what Ludic suggested.



you just need it for 1 or 2 seconds to anchor the summon then no problem plus you can connect to your self.Correct, you just can't summon the creature into thin air, which Ludic wanted to do.

[Crake]

Tenser's floating disk is not a conjuration spell, so it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I think they meant use tenser's floating disc as a platform to summon the monster on? But that wouldn't work either, since floating disc doesnt float more than 1 or 2 feet off the ground anyway.


Correct, you just can't summon the creature into thin air, which Ludic wanted to do.

You also can't summon a whale either, since, as an aquatic creature, it can't be summoned outside of an aquatic environment. Plus, falling objects/creatures only have a DC 15 reflex save to avoid all damage, and the damage only caps at 20d6, is really, it's fairly mediocre, especially at higher levels when DC15 is passable by practically anyone quite easily.