How is Paladin the Nova King?

[Dualswinger]

I've heard over and over that if you want nova/spike/single turn damage then using the Paladin divine smite is the way to go, but I'm having trouble seeing any of the builds online beat a straight fighter sharpshooter.

Best I've seen online is a fighter 2/Paladin 2/sorcerer 16 that action surges for four attacks then quickens booming blade, giving you, with a str 20 great sword for example, 10d6 weapon damage + 5*5d8 smite + 7d8 booming blade damage +5*(5 + 10) which on average delivers around 254, assuming all attacks hit.

A straight fighter sharpshooter on the other hand attacks with a heavy crossbow 10 times (4 base attacks, +1 snap shot, then action surge) for 1d10 + 5 (dex mod) + 10 (sharpshooter feat) + 12 (steady aim) which comes to 10d10 + 270 damage, beating the "novadin" on modifier damage alone.

I can't be calculating this right because I refuse to believe that the optimisers of this board haven't noticed what the damage output of a "pure" fighter is.

[Rysto]

The Sharpshooter archetype is about a month old and it's not even official material yet.

More importantly, you can't just compare base damage without taking accuracy into account. The whole point of the -5/+10 is a tradeoff of less accuracy for more damage. Of course the damage looks huge when you assume everything hits.

[Dualswinger]

True, but most theorycraft I've seen all make that assumption. Hence why I included it in the novadin build. Even without the fighter has the edge.

[Dr.Samurai]

I can't be calculating this right because I refuse to believe that the optimisers of this board haven't noticed what the damage output of a "pure" fighter is.
Your instincts are correct.

Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508381-so-uhh-sharpshooter-fighter-is-one-of-the-best-dps-in-the-game-now-right)

Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21471437&postcount=9)

:smallcool:

[eastmabl]

Best I've seen online is a fighter 2/Paladin 2/sorcerer 16 that action surges for four attacks then quickens booming blade, giving you, with a str 20 great sword for example, 10d6 weapon damage + 5*5d8 smite + 7d8 booming blade damage +5*(5 + 10) which on average delivers around 254, assuming all attacks hit.

You need Sorcerer 3 before you get metamagic. You're not quickening booming blade with that build.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's sorcerer 16.

[Dualswinger]

Your instincts are correct.

Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508381-so-uhh-sharpshooter-fighter-is-one-of-the-best-dps-in-the-game-now-right)

Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21471437&postcount=9)

:smallcool:

Thank you. My Google fu was weak. *bows*


You need Sorcerer 3 before you get metamagic. You're not quickening booming blade with that build.

The build has sorc 16? I'm not seeing the issue?

[Tanarii]

True, but most theorycraft I've seen all make that assumption. Hence why I included it in the novadin build. Even without the fighter has the edge.Or you could just compute DPR against a range of reasonably expected ACs instead of damage without hit chance.

Also, how many games occur at level 20? Why not use a more reasonable baseline like levels 5 to 10?

Edit: I just caught you're including UA material. No wonder you think it's busted.

[Crusher]

Or you could just compute DPR against a range of reasonably expected ACs instead of damage without hit chance.

Also, how many games occur at level 20? Why not use a more reasonable baseline like levels 5 to 10?

Edit: I just caught you're including UA material. No wonder you think it's busted.

Yeah, like the Tunnel Fighter with unlimited AoOs. Set things up properly and you can do thousands of damage in a single round.

[Gignere]

Thing is that both fighter and paladin are good burst classes, however fighters can burst once per short rest maybe twice at high levels, whereas a paladin can burst until he runs out of spells. Paladin is king of burst mainly because it gets enough spell slots to consistently burst throughout the combat day. Whereas fighters is more short rest dependent.

[BiPolar]

Thing is that both fighter and paladin are good burst classes, however fighters can burst once per short rest maybe twice at high levels, whereas a paladin can burst until he runs out of spells. Paladin is king of burst mainly because it gets enough spell slots to consistently burst throughout the combat day. Whereas fighters is more short rest dependent.

In addition, "Assuming all attacks hit" is a pretty damn big assumption. With the Paladin, a single hit can drop the smites. Hence the Nova.

[eastmabl]

It's sorcerer 16.

Ach. Teach me to post before my second cup.

[GlenSmash!]

I always thought is was because Paladins can wait to see if they crit before they drop the Smite. Effectively making sure they always double smite damage.

[Regulas]

Lol, "Why does anyone think Paladins are good at burst damage! If I try and abuse a new non-balanced UA subclass I can beat it! Clearly Paladins are bad at burst damage!"

[JakOfAllTirades]

I always thought is was because Paladins can wait to see if they crit before they drop the Smite. Effectively making sure they always double smite damage.

This right here. Throw in a Fighter/Champion 3 dip to get more crits.

[djreynolds]

Because he can also add in the addition of his smite spells and divine smite.

And all are post hit. GWM/SS may miss, and the paladin can use GWM as well.

An OoD paladin with max charisma and sacred weapon uses GWM with ease. Then he has divine favor or a smite spell with concentration... and then he can smite.

1 Action turn on sacred weapon and cast as a BA... thundering smite. Next turn hit 2 times with GWM and add smite to each, and then kill someone, and get a BA to use GWM again or use the smite spell waiting there.

[numerek]

Best I've seen online is a fighter 2/Paladin 2/sorcerer 16 that action surges for four attacks then quickens booming blade, giving you, with a str 20 great sword for example, 10d6 weapon damage + 5*5d8 smite + 7d8 booming blade damage +5*(5 + 10) which on average delivers around 254, assuming all attacks hit.


8 paladin oathbreaker 3 fighter/battle master 3 rogue assassin 6 sorcerer. with this if you get surprise you double almost all the dice. and nova isn't complete without haste adding another attack.
24d6 weapon damage + 5*10d8 smite + 1*8d8 smite + 10d8 booming blade + 8d8 superiority dice + 6 * (5 + 3 + 10)=100+225+36+45+36+108=550

if you don't want to rely on surprise
12 paladin oathbreaker 3 fighter/ battle master 5 sorcerer
12d6 + 6*6d8 improved smite + 7d8 booming blade + 4d8 superiority dice + 6 * (5 + 3 + 10)=50+162+31.5+18+108=369.5



A straight fighter sharpshooter on the other hand attacks with a heavy crossbow 10 times (4 base attacks, +1 snap shot, then action surge) for 1d10 + 5 (dex mod) + 10 (sharpshooter feat) + 12 (steady aim) which comes to 10d10 + 270 damage, beating the "novadin" on modifier damage alone.

also the fighter gets most of it from level 18+. At level 17 your attacks go down to 6 from 10 and your plus to damage goes down 2 per attack so you are doing less than 60% as much. the two builds above will be at about 80% at level 17.

[CaptainSarathai]

I think that Paladin and Fighter are both pretty close in terms of hitting really hard against the boss, which is what you want your NOVA for. The difference is that the Paladin has a much higher potential if you assume that he can Crit. Which really, is kinda hard to represent in the math when you want to work out how much damage you can do specifically in the first round of the fight (when novas matter).
The Paladin is just a lot more "swingy" than the Fighter, and in white room math that's going to make his damage seem higher. The two have fairly similar average damage when you see them at the table, and in fact, our Fighter tends to be the one with a more consistent "first round beat-down" record.

YMMV of course, and I still prefer having a Pally in the party over a Fighter, because they have more utility.

[djreynolds]

we did ran a kung fu battle the other day, pitting PvP.

The paladin's ability to just add smite post roll is huge. Even when he missed the EK with his shield spell or the dex fighter with defensive duelist... he didn't lose any smites

Its tough to fight one, because when the paladin misses he doesn't lose anything.

I found that the rogue, weirdly enough, matched up well in the fight because at least uncanny dodge would halve the damage... and eat up smites that way. But when he punched through the EK's shield spell it was usually a crit... the EK perished.

[Foxhound438]

take in hit chance. if general "balanced" target AC is used, the paladin has a .65 chance to hit, while the fighter has a .5 chance. paladin ends up 165, fighter ends up 162.5, and that's using the obviously broken unofficial archetype. Higher AC also really starts to favor paladin fast, and honestly it's more common to see super high AC than the recommended AC (see ancient red dragon).

[Gignere]

we did ran a kung fu battle the other day, pitting PvP.

The paladin's ability to just add smite post roll is huge. Even when he missed the EK with his shield spell or the dex fighter with defensive duelist... he didn't lose any smites

Its tough to fight one, because when the paladin misses he doesn't lose anything.

I found that the rogue, weirdly enough, matched up well in the fight because at least uncanny dodge would halve the damage... and eat up smites that way. But when he punched through the EK's shield spell it was usually a crit... the EK perished.

I think a better match up maybe a battlemaster, having the ability to turn near misses into hits has to be nearly as good as smithing after the fact.

[random_guy]

Using PHB only material, the largest amount of damage I have seen is a Paladin 8/Fighter (Eldritch Knight) 12. The fighter provides three attacks per round. Action surge boosts it to six attacks per round. The pole arm mastery feat allows a bonus action as a seventh attack. The paladin's spell slots combined with the eldritch knight's spell slots should provide enough spells to add smite to every attack. Charisma only needs to be 13 for multiclassing purposes. Assuming all ASIs go towards strength, there might be room to pick up great weapon master as well.

I have not had a chance to implement it, but I am playing around with the idea of making it a two level dip in paladin for the smiting followed by six levels in sorcerer. With sorcery points, a sorcerer can convert lower level spells to more fourth level spells for maximum smiting damage. This build is looking at:

6D10 + 1D4 + 35 STR + 35D8 Smite + 70 great weapon master. This averages around 253 damage.

A sorcerer 6 has haste which can add another attack to the mix. Magic items can also boost the overall damage. The fact that smiting can benefit from crits can shift the damage in its favor.