So long 3.5

[fishyfishyfishy]

My group took a bit of a hiatus from d&d due to scheduling issues, and it has now been a few months since the last time we played. We're about to start up again so I've been scouring my notes and re-reading books and plot points. One document I refamiliarized myself with was my house rules Google doc. I haven't actually looked at it in over a year and I've forgotten how much I've had to change just to make the game playable and enjoyable for us. It's stunning to me now to look back and see how much work I've had to put into this. Lately I just feel ready to call it quits with this game. I've been trying to direct the plot to a satisfying conclusion for everyone involved just so I don't have to think about all this ridiculousness. I'm just ready to move on to a more simple game like 5e.


Anyone else ever have similar feelings, or do you feel the opposite? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[John Longarrow]

I've felt that way. When the campaign you want to run doesn't mesh with the rules you are using, switch rules.

D&D does not do well for a cyberpunk game. If you want to run a cyberpunk game, use rules for a cyberpunk game. It doesn't mean the rules themselves are bad, they just don't support what you (and your group) want.

It also means that in a year you may find yourself ditching 5th edition entirely because your players want things that it doesn't support.

[NevinPL]

I don't see nothing wrong, or strange in changing stuff to your likings.
People mod PC games, or buy custom PC setups, then further change things, with wallpapers, themes, etc.
We change our clothes, looks, phone cases, or jobs to "suit our needs", so what's so strange in changing rules for a game ?

[Pleh]

Actually, the opposite, but for similar reasons.

My friends and I tried 5e at first. I really liked it and I still do, but my friends still preferred 3.5 and as I went back, I started getting even more into it and started enjoying the complexity I never cared for before.

I can always pop back to 5e for that streamlined edge and role playing focus any time. But my appreciation for 3.5 has only grown now that I have an alternative I can escape to.

[Nifft]

I enjoy 5e, especially on the DM side of the screen.

Have fun with your game.

[ChaosStar]

My only experience with 5e has been watching Sunday Morning Heroes, but it looks decently fun. I still prefer 3.5 due to the Neverwinter Nights games. My first experience with d&d though was playing Icewind Dale a long time ago. It was okay but very restrictive in character generation.

[Eladrinblade]

Anyone else ever have similar feelings, or do you feel the opposite? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Complete opposite. I love 3.5. Sometimes I run core only games, for the simplicity, sometimes I use my 40 billion houserules for games with a different feel. I've looked into 5e; It's so simple it may as well be one of those d6 games.

[Afgncaap5]

5e's a great alternative if you're looking for something different. Lately I've been on a bit of a "I want something that FEELS like 3.5 without being it" kick, and I've been getting a lot out of 13th Age and Atlantis: The 2nd Age.

So... yeah. If you want something different, play something different! The worst case scenario is that you'l be doing something you like *more* than 3.5. Best case scenario is that you wind up liking something else, and growing to like 3.5 even more. It'll still be here if you want to come back to it. Heck, 1st edition's still here if you want to come back to it.

The one wrinkle I can see if the issue of the game that you're trying to bring to a satisfying conclusion. I'd be open with that bit with your players, and let 'em know that you want to conclude that, and bring up possible issues if you switch systems (ranging from "We're leaving the old story and likely won't feel like going back to it" to "Your characters might not feel the same in this new system" and beyond.) I've had a game that's been literally one dungeon away from completion for three years due to scheduling issues (which have now grown to include a "key player moving away and we only see him at Gen-Con" issue) so I definitely get the pain of that. Sometimes it's best to just go for what'll be fun more than holding on to old stories, and sometimes the story is worth fighting for. Use your best judgement there, maybe talk it over with players.

[stanprollyright]

Try Pathfinder? Port over any 3.5 *house rules you still need?

*EDIT

[Crake]

Honestly, if you think 3.5 is bad because you need to houserule stuff, 5e will be just as bad because 99% of situations are just "DM decide", so if you want any level of consistency, you're gonna need to implement your own houserules and set DCs, else just leave the players walking blind.

And good luck if you want to have some variety! It's coming on what, 2-2.5 years into the edition now? More if you include all the public playtesting, and there's barely any new mechanical content for the game. I get it that the whole point was for DMs to create their own content, but if you're like a lot of DMs, and dislike using other people's homebrew, and thus have to homebrew all your own stuff, but then don't have the time to really do it yourself, you end up with a really boring and bland experience in terms of mechanics. Of course, when it comes to fluff, system is (almost) irrelevant, so that shouldn't be factored into it, but I think, if you hate 3.5 for having to have houserules, 5e will be worse, because the whole system is basically "DM houserules everything" anyway, with minimal mechanics.

[AuraTwilight]

In my group's case, we ended up so frustrated with 3.5 because any level involving feat gains caused audible groans of misery. There was just too much crud to sift through, too much granularity, too much stuff predicated on specific balance concerns that were half-broken or fully broken. 3.5 was a house of cards where any small change caused major ripples.

We went to Castles & Crusades.

[Calthropstu]

I said goodbye to 3.5 and hello to pathfinder and haven't looked back.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I enjoy 5e, especially on the DM side of the screen.

Have fun with your game.

Thank you. :smallbiggrin:




The one wrinkle I can see if the issue of the game that you're trying to bring to a satisfying conclusion. I'd be open with that bit with your players, and let 'em know that you want to conclude that, and bring up possible issues if you switch systems (ranging from "We're leaving the old story and likely won't feel like going back to it" to "Your characters might not feel the same in this new system" and beyond.) I've had a game that's been literally one dungeon away from completion for three years due to scheduling issues (which have now grown to include a "key player moving away and we only see him at Gen-Con" issue) so I definitely get the pain of that. Sometimes it's best to just go for what'll be fun more than holding on to old stories, and sometimes the story is worth fighting for. Use your best judgement there, maybe talk it over with players.

Oh the players are definitely aware. We've been playing this same campaign for 5 years now and a lot of it is I just want to do something new but I don't want to just drop everything we've been building up to all this time. I think they're on board for that.



Honestly, if you think 3.5 is bad because you need to houserule stuff, 5e will be just as bad because 99% of situations are just "DM decide", so if you want any level of consistency, you're gonna need to implement your own houserules and set DCs, else just leave the players walking blind.

And good luck if you want to have some variety! It's coming on what, 2-2.5 years into the edition now? More if you include all the public playtesting, and there's barely any new mechanical content for the game. I get it that the whole point was for DMs to create their own content, but if you're like a lot of DMs, and dislike using other people's homebrew, and thus have to homebrew all your own stuff, but then don't have the time to really do it yourself, you end up with a really boring and bland experience in terms of mechanics. Of course, when it comes to fluff, system is (almost) irrelevant, so that shouldn't be factored into it, but I think, if you hate 3.5 for having to have houserules, 5e will be worse, because the whole system is basically "DM houserules everything" anyway, with minimal mechanics.

I never said I thought it was bad, or that I hate it, just that it took a lot of work on my behalf to homebrew up something we would all find enjoyable and that I'm getting tired of running it. I think you're probably misinterpreting my intent with this thread. Edition wars are not what I am here for.


Try Pathfinder? Port over any 3.5 *house rules you still need?

*EDIT

I don't think that would really work for me.

[Crake]

I never said I thought it was bad, or that I hate it, just that it took a lot of work on my behalf to homebrew up something we would all find enjoyable and that I'm getting tired of running it. I think you're probably misinterpreting my intent with this thread. Edition wars are not what I am here for.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if 3.5 isn't working for you, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, what I'm saying is that the problems you expressed with 3.5, I think you will eventually run into those exact same problems in 5e, so I'm not sure you're going to solve your issue

[fishyfishyfishy]

Oh, don't get me wrong, if 3.5 isn't working for you, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, what I'm saying is that the problems you expressed with 3.5, I think you will eventually run into those exact same problems in 5e, so I'm not sure you're going to solve your issue

I think it works for what I seek out of D&D. When I want other experiences I'll probably play a different system entirely.

[Psyren]

I personally don't see the point in saying goodbye to a system entirely. They scratch different itches. 5e is definitely fun to play (and light years better than 4e was) but all my 3.5 and PF books aren't going anywhere either.

[Crake]

I think it works for what I seek out of D&D. When I want other experiences I'll probably play a different system entirely.

I'm sure you felt the same way about 3.5, but then over the years you ended up with a long list of houserules :smalltongue:


I personally don't see the point in saying goodbye to a system entirely. They scratch different itches. 5e is definitely fun to play (and light years better than 4e was) but all my 3.5 and PF books aren't going anywhere either.

I'm with psyren here, especially after spending so much time understanding and mastering the system, it would feel like such a waste to completely leave it in the dust, but then I suspect fishyfishyfishy really just means that 5e is going to be his primary system for DMing, rather than forever swearing against 3.5. I have friends who refuse to DM 3.5, but will happily play it, and I'll admit, it is a lot of effort to DM effectively.

[Ludic]

In my group's case, we ended up so frustrated with 3.5 because any level involving feat gains caused audible groans of misery. There was just too much crud to sift through, too much granularity, too much stuff predicated on specific balance concerns that were half-broken or fully broken. 3.5 was a house of cards where any small change caused major ripples.

We went to Castles & Crusades.

o.O Seriously? I do all that at creation. I know my character from 1st to 20th (30th if I know the campaign will go epic, or I just want to build something neat that takes 30 levels). Like fully mapped out in an excel spreadsheet with the class(es), BAB, Saves, Feats and Class Features so I can easily level. Sure I spend a bit more time prepping before game starts, but it makes the game go so much faster.

[GilesTheCleric]

o.O Seriously? I do all that at creation. I know my character from 1st to 20th (30th if I know the campaign will go epic, or I just want to build something neat that takes 30 levels). Like fully mapped out in an excel spreadsheet with the class(es), BAB, Saves, Feats and Class Features so I can easily level. Sure I spend a bit more time prepping before game starts, but it makes the game go so much faster.

Most of us on the boards probably plan out our characters from the start/ use spreadsheets/ handbooks/ our own resource collections, but I doubt that the majority of the 3.5 community at large does. I know that nobody in my noob group plans ahead, and even some of the folks in my experienced group don't, either.

[AuraTwilight]

o.O Seriously? I do all that at creation. I know my character from 1st to 20th (30th if I know the campaign will go epic, or I just want to build something neat that takes 30 levels). Like fully mapped out in an excel spreadsheet with the class(es), BAB, Saves, Feats and Class Features so I can easily level. Sure I spend a bit more time prepping before game starts, but it makes the game go so much faster.

Yea, and they hated that. It's homework, and doing it before the game doesn't really matter because it's the granularity and preplanning your character in of itself that was the unfun problem. WHEN you do it doesn't change anything; it even made some of them less interested in doing exciting or cool things because they knew it'd cause changes to their character that would upset their build plans, and that broke the immersion.

[MeeposFire]

Yea I have a similar issue. Being a DM for a 3e game was becoming so much work to make it fun at mid to high levels for my players that I have now decided to never DM it again. On the good side the players did have fun (at the end 4e just came out and a number of its concepts like minions and monster design made things a LOT easier but even then it still required a lot of work) but on the bad side I was having no fun and I had to spend way too much time doing everything I could to make this beast run.

After running 4e, 5e, and even older D&D like from the Rules Cyclopedia I have found I can get as much out of them without having to do as much work which means I can get to enjoy the game more. As for games like 5e (and much older D&D) requiring more rulings than 3e and comparing that to house rules at least to me the types of house rules I was making for 3e required way more work than the sort of rulings you get in a game like 5e. Heck many times it has been a feature and not a bug in my games. Freedom can be very nice.

I do like making a character in 3e but more and more as a theory exercise. I find it much less enjoyable in game especially if I have to deal with full attack issues (which sucks since I like to play warrior and rogue types) or to wait for whatever gimmick comes online. ToB helps for me but it is more of a patch than a real fix (full attack actions are one of the worst things they did to the game 3e is the only version of D&D that limits weapon users so much on a basic level).